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Alec Grahm	Posted - 2008.04.10 17:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Diablo Ka the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so only in high sec ares withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think? It would also make perfect safe spots in any low sec or null sec system with an agent. A person running a mission would only be a target at gates/stations. This is not necessarily a good thing. The other part is that there is no way to find a wreck that has been left. Probes don't pick it up. Salvagers are finding ships or drones that are outside normal spaces to find these ships and then going to those spots, hoping to find some wrecks. As I understand it, dead space mission areas are already reduced in strength of signal to help obscure them, but someone with sufficient skills can still find a person. This goes back to the idea of 'if you are in space, you are not safe' and making such a change would have repercussions - not necessarily beneficial.
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.04.10 18:13:00 - [92] Originally by: Alec Grahm Originally by: Diablo Ka the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so only in high sec ares withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think? It would also make perfect safe spots in any low sec or null sec system with an agent. A person running a mission would only be a target at gates/stations. This is not necessarily a good thing. The other part is that there is no way to find a wreck that has been left. Probes don't pick it up. Salvagers are finding ships or drones that are outside normal spaces to find these ships and then going to those spots, hoping to find some wrecks. He clearly said high sec. Did you not carefully read his post before replying? Originally by: welsh wizard stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air.
Alec Grahm	Posted - 2008.04.10 19:03:00 - [93] Edited by: Alec Grahm on 10/04/2008 19:03:16 Originally by: Kusha'an He clearly said high sec. Did you not carefully read his post before replying? I apologize for missing that, though that still creates a super safe spot within high sec and you cannot find wrecks with any scanning tools - you can only find ships and drones as clues there might be salvage there. It also offends my sense of consistency that other than concord response time and restrictions about what one can deploy that this is a suggestion at changing the 'laws of the universe' - that spaces for missions behave differently in different places.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.10 20:24:00 - [94] Perfect safes were and would be stupid anywhere. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.10 23:44:00 - [95] Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten.
Fumen	Posted - 2008.04.11 03:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten. Hate to break it to you, but missions are instanced. You're confusing it with 'private.' If it wasn't for instanced missions, you'd end up with the same situation you get at all the publicly known DED sites with a half dozen people competing to complete the same mission. ------------- But as to the OP, if he PvPs in 0.0, why not just stay out there and rat? The income from just a couple faction drops can make up for a day of mission running, and with a few exceptions rat faction loot is better than about anything you can get at the LP store. Personally, I see no issue here. Accept the game mechanic and adjust to it. There is no discontinuity in the logic of the loot. The wreck is separate from the loot container it's wrapped around. (Salvaging the wreck causes the loot container to be exposed.) From a design perspective, they could have gone with flagged wrecks, which would have opened up another whole area to expose players to aggression flags. As it is, how many people leave the wrecks and loot laying because it's potentially faster to just clear the mission, turn it in, and do the next one without even looting/salvaging? Everyone seems to forget the other recourse for dealing with ninja salvagers: contract your local mercs to gank em a few times.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.11 05:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Fumen Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten. Hate to break it to you, but missions are instanced. You're confusing it with 'private.' If it wasn't for instanced missions, you'd end up with the same situation you get at all the publicly known DED sites with a half dozen people competing to complete the same mission. "Instancing" is by definition private, and completely sequestered from the rest of the game universe. Any EVE mission is accessible to a potentially unlimited amount of players beyond the mission runner and his party. Ergo, emphatically not an instance. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:10:00 - [98] While mission invading, salvage sucking and enjoying the smack-talk from the runners I come into a mission just beginning. Not wanting to wait around for him to finish popping all the rats I zip off and grab my rat-combating ship, return and get to popping the rats. This caused the rat wrecks to show up as white to me and yeller to him. Leaving me free not only to take the salvage from all the wrecks, but the lootz from the ones I've popped also. Another "fun" thing I discovered also is most ppl come back in a small ship to gather the lootz, drag it all in a can to one spot then leave to get a hauler-ship. If you time it just right, when he goes off for the hauler, or even the small loot-gathering ship, you haul-booty and get a hauler, return and cloak. When Mr. Mission runner finishes gathering and moves on thru next gate, or goes after his hauler, uncloak, scoop can contents, GTFU, or wait a bit, go thru the next gate, look for a can which the runner graciously filled for you, scoop and continue. NOTHING p.o's a mission runner off more than when he returns with his hauler and finds his cans missing. Just for the LOL factor I've sat at the last place aligned and ready to go waiting for his hauler to enter then I warp off just giving him a quick peek at a red-flashy hauler warping off with his stuff, just to make sure there was no misunderstanding ensuring he knows it was I who stole his lootz he worked so much gathering up in one spot for my convienance. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:49:00 - [99] Glad I never have to learn that lesson through experience. You have now ensured that I will never use the hauler. Thank you for the tip. Originally by: welsh wizard stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air.
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 13:52:00 - [100] I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Or, The group of players that allow themselves to get all worked up about stuff. Furthermore, they routinely keep putting themselves in positions where stuff is going to happen that has the potential to tick them off, if not downright wreck their day (if they let it). I have little use for either group (ok, I shamefully admit gaining occassional mild amusement from observing them interacting).
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:29:00 - [101] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius Punctuation. He did punctuate. There's two whole periods in there. On-topic: I don't ninja salvage, but I also don't see anything wrong with it. It's just another PvP aspect of Eve, really. I DO see something wrong with it not being flagged if stealing from a can or taking loot from a wreck is. I really think consistency one way or another would give the player-base clearly defined rules and thereby translate to other aspects of the game. Just my opinion. Also you whiny crybabies that are complaining about people playing the game in their own fashion (better than you, I might add)? Can I have your stuff?
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:32:00 - [102] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Your pity is just another bonus Originally by: Chomin H'ak On-topic: I don't ninja salvage, but I also don't see anything wrong with it. It's just another PvP aspect of Eve, really. I DO see something wrong with it not being flagged if stealing from a can or taking loot from a wreck is. I really think consistency one way or another would give the player-base clearly defined rules and thereby translate to other aspects of the game. Just my opinion. But there IS consistency. Taking loot gives flag, salvaging wrecks does not. Every time (barring bugs).
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Sigul Siento Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Your pity is just another bonus Nuanced response: I didn't actually say I was the one doing the pitying.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:50:00 - [104] Originally by: Dotard Another "fun" thing I discovered ... There's a lot of fun stuff you can do. My favorite was when I arrived at a two-room mission just as the mission runners disappeared from directional scan (i.e. they were docking to turn in the mission). I quickly went through both acceleration gates and bookmarked a wreck in each room. I came back in my ninja salvage ship and started with the second room, cleaning out the battleship wrecks and leaving the others there. I warped then to the first room where the guy was casually salvaging the wrecks near his warp-in point with a destroyer. For about five minutes he talked smack on local, called me all kinds of names, as he was salvaging frigate wrecks and I was AB'ing out to the battleship wrecks at long range from him. When the last wreck disappeared and the whole audience on local was starting to get involved in the convo, and his obscenity reached a climax, I sent the message "Wait until you find out I cleared your second room first." My victory was complete.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:19:00 - [105] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean Nuanced response: I didn't actually say I was the one doing the pitying. Well somebodys potential pity is just an additional bonus. But that doesn't make for quite as snappy a sentence.
Xela Dioved	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:27:00 - [106] Originally by: xenoin Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW. Or pirate mission runners, it's very low risk.
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:20:00 - [107] Look at it this way... You go out and buy yourself a candybar. You tear open the wrapper....eat the bar and toss the wrapper on the ground. Then a guy comes along and sees the wrapper and thinks...hey, I can use that wrapper inside my ant traps that I am manufacturing. Ants love the chocolate and this wrapper will make my ant trap work better. Now you over hear the guy and think to yourself..wait a minute, i could make few pennies off this guy if i sell him my wrapper. But its too late, you left it laying on the ground to blow away. I could see where it would be a crime if someone came along and took the candybar, depriving you of the pleasure of eating it, but to pick up your wrapper that you left on the ground should hardly result in a flag. Bottom line is....if you are in a mission and want the salvage, do something about it. There are ways you can adapt to this situation, salvage as you go...get buddy to salvage it..contract a salvager to get it for you and share the wealth...which ever you choose, move on with it...this subject is getting old Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:32:00 - [108] Happened to me twice, once the person doing it got killed and once, I didn't care, since I don't salvage most of the missions anyway. I'm one of those space polluters that just runs around leaving rubbish everywhere and collecting the bounties :( I do salvage and loot drone missions because they give no bounties, but their reprocessed loot is good for making ammo.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:31:00 - [109] Sigul; I know where you scan at, you know where I scan at. I see you in local often. Just as often I find myself trying to scan down the missions faster and more hectic-like competeing with you. Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.11 23:11:00 - [110] Originally by: Dotard Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. With three or four people, you can do it much more powerfully. With one guy in the prober and the other guys ready to salvage at a moments' notice, you can have the prober set up quest probes all over the system (takes a long time and is expensive to set up the first time, but they last an hour). Every cycle of the quest probes (7 minutes for me) you get pinpoint accurate hits on everything within their range. You'll find that you can't salvage all the missions you find within the 7-minute window until the next set of scan results. Of course you can't do it solo, the quests are short range probes and it's a pain to set them all up. This is what my friends and I were doing the day I invited you to join us, Dotard.
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:21:00 - [111] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/04/2008 01:21:31 Anyone know of any decent mission hubs in Amarr space?
Dotries	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:58:00 - [112] Within the compass of this post, I can do no more than indicate, as concisely as I can, relevant considerations that must be taken into account if we are to discuss Mr. Dotard's and Starbreakers morbid practices in a rational manner. First off, these two believe that thier stealings are good for the environment, human rights, and baby seals. The real damage that this belief causes actually has nothing to do with the belief itself, but with psychology, human nature, and the skillful psychological manipulation of that nature by these two and their perverted gofers. They always sound like their reading a prepared speech. Let's be sure that I've made myself absolutely clear: Sometimes I think that Mr. Dotard and Starbreaker are simply willing pawns of those fork-tongued lackwits who rot out the foundations of our religious, moral, and political values. I typically drop that willing-pawn notion, however, whenever I remember that these two insist that if they kick us in the teeth we'll then lick his toes and beg for another kick. Sorry, nimrods, but, with apologies to Gershwin, "it ain't necessarily so." I think these two maintain that the cure for evil is more evil. Perhaps it would be best for them to awaken from their delusional, narcoleptic fantasyland and observe that they sometimes have trouble convincing people that mediocrity is a worthwhile goal. When they have such trouble, they usually trot out a few vitriolic slumlords to constate authoritatively that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry about how the exceptions feel. Whether or not that trick of their's works, it's still the case that these two have been offering moonstruck twaddlers a lot of isk to make the pot of salvage stealing overboil and scald the whole EvE-verse. This is blood money, plain and simple. Anyone thinking of doing this should realize that these two use the very intellectual tools he criticizes, namely consequentialist arguments rather than arguments about truth or falsity. So, what exactly are these two trying to hide? I guess it just boils down to the question: Do these two believe, deep in the adytum of their own mind, that forcing me to fall into the traps set for me by them and their advocates is essential for the safety and welfare of the eve population? Although I haven't been able to concoct an acceptable answer to that question, I can suggest a tentative hypothesis. My hypothesis is that these activities are not witty satire, as they would have you believe. They're simply the larcenous doings of someone who has no idea or appreciation of what there mocking. Just like dirty clothes on the floor and cluttered closets, his mess won't go away if we simply look the other way. He might siphon off scarce salvaging capital intended for underdeveloped players one day. What are we to do then? Place blinders over our eyes and hope we don't see the horrible outcome? At this point, our task is to pronounce the truth and renounce the lies. Your support can help greatly with this task of rooting out them and their kind from our enjoyment of EvE, this crucial task, at which we, as a collective, must not fail. -------------- Stupid Monkey.
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.12 03:00:00 - [113] Edited by: Evita Achura on 12/04/2008 03:01:37 Originally by: Revan Tiberius ...words...Revan Tiberius 1. English and Grammar lessons 2. Post in one of over 9000 other threads for this 3. Less QQ more pew pew.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.12 13:02:00 - [114] Originally by: Dotard Sigul; I know where you scan at, you know where I scan at. I see you in local often. Just as often I find myself trying to scan down the missions faster and more hectic-like competeing with you. Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. I must confess I'm a poor team player, and yes I don't like sharing if I can help it I don't really find myself with more sites than I can handle, or at least not more GOOD sites than I can handle (after prioritising size and types of wreck). But then again, I use recon probes, simply because it's fast and can cover large areas. Usually i don't have time to cover the system in spooks before I find salvage, and if lucky I have a good hit within a couple minutes of leaving the station. But I see the wisodm in Joe's approach, several people and loads of quest probes sounds quite effective (a 7 minute scanning time does however need some improvement ). But it does seem like you would need quite a few people to make it worthwhile? @Dotries Oh my that's pompous Surely this can't be for real... Doesn't make much sense either. Has to be irony... or is it? Can't really tell. Quite sad if it's meant seriosuly. Funny though, either way.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.12 13:58:00 - [115] Edited by: Dotard on 12/04/2008 13:59:01 @sig.. Please note winky-face at bottom of Dotries post. It's a hint that no, it's not serious, it's a joke. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.12 14:46:00 - [116] The winky could be interpreted as scorn too. But yeah, quite obvious joke, it's just my expectations that are a bit warped by too many "Have ye no honour, scurrelous scoundrel!?", and similar reactions to my doings ...Dotrie, Dotard... busted!
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.12 19:44:00 - [117] That's DotrieS.. with an S. Busted? If I really wanted to hide behind an alt I would not have made such an obvious connection. Hey! I gotta have SOMEBODY to back up my opinions, even if it is my other personality. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:10:00 - [118] Originally by: Sigul Siento But I see the wisodm in Joe's approach, several people and loads of quest probes sounds quite effective (a 7 minute scanning time does however need some improvement ). But it does seem like you would need quite a few people to make it worthwhile? It all depends on how many mission runners and what types are available. Using 8 or 10 quest probes in a Minmatar L4 hub, I was pinpointing at least 3 or 4 good missions with each scan (at least 1-2 new ones) I had a team of 4, admittedly new to the trade, and they couldn't salvage them fast enough to be done in 7 minutes. As you know, it's a feast or famine business, you may do it for a while with few hits, or you may have too many to make it worth while. It's a fun way to share the fun with your friends who don't have any astrometrics skills trained.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:12:00 - [119] Originally by: Dotries They always sound like their reading a prepared speech. ... Quote: Sometimes I think that Mr. Dotard and Starbreaker are simply willing pawns of those fork-tongued lackwits who rot out the foundations of our religious, moral, and political values. Well yes, I suppose you could say that most of our salvaging really does ultimately go toward making rigs for CNRs. <shudder>
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 01:01:00 - [120] It's a fun way to share the fun with your friends... Friends? TBH I've found there isn't really a whole lot of ISKies to be made considering the time put into it. But you can't beat the LOL factor. The smack you get in local can be quite hilarious. I think that is really the reason I do it, for the negative social interactions. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!

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