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Revan Tiberius Demonic Retribution	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:14:00 - [1] Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius
Strak Yogorn Mind Warpers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:24:00 - [2] go away already.. post in one of the other 3245626 threads .. oh and also, there is no issue, you salvage as you go. paragraphs are your friend too.
Revan Tiberius Demonic Retribution	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:28:00 - [3] i dont think i will go away and no i aint going to post in one of the other 38234729 threads on this dam forum if you aint got anything better then to say what you did dont post a reply
Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 15:38:00 - [4] Don't mission out of busy hubs maybe? I'm running L4 missions for a Q16 agent and I haven't even seen anyone else appear in my mission, much less ninja-loot/salvage anything.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. It's not a change, that's the way it's been since salvage was introduced. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Salliene Happy Unicorn Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius The crying when viewed in relation to that tough guy avatar you chose is priceless irony. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Emily Spankratchet Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Revan Tiberius ... so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in ... I've never had anyone come into my missions to salvage. I've been grinding ISK in level 4s for the last few weeks. Let me guess, you're running missions for Caldari Navy in a system with 150 other mindless sheep?
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius The crying when viewed in relation to that tough guy avatar you chose is priceless irony. This
Space Wanderer Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Revan Tiberius i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp Let me understand, you LIVE in 0.0, do pvp, and then complain about a game mechanics that requires from you just a little bit of resourcefulness? Really, you seem a kid that enjoys the rules when they let him win and starts crying rivers when the shoe is on the other foot. All EVE is pvp, even the carebearing activities, just of a different sort. When you do the industrialist you are in competition against other players. When you do the trader you are in competition against other players. When you do exploration you are in competition against other players. Now you found out (because it has always been like that) that when you do missions you are in competition against other players. Congratulations, better late than never. Just because players can't shoot each other that doesn't mean there isn't pvp. But analysing more in depth your complaint, I can notice that the root of it is that you just want to make money fast to get your gtc and go back to play the way you like it. That's all well and good, but have you considered to actually, well, _paying_ for the game you play? I do, and that means I can play the game I want all the time.
Anaalys Fluuterby Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.26 16:44:00 - [10] You might want to read the following quotes from CCP: From one of the GMs: Quote: This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. From the Dev PrismX Quote: If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. Simply the people that decided that "salvaging" was not stealing are the people that made the game. Salvaging is supposed to be open to all, not a mission-runner's entitlement program. Quote: maybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. This is NOT a "change", salvaging has never drawn aggro since it was originally implemented with Revelations 1 over a year ago. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Myshella Drake Ward-Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Revan Tiberius i dont think i will go away and no i aint going to post in one of the other 38234729 threads on this dam forum Thats right, because your whine is sooo incredibly revolutionary and important that it requires its own thread. ------------------ Proud to stand up for my Profession
Jolliejoe Quad Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.26 18:43:00 - [12] OK, granted... the gm's like people stealing salvage and a lot of people ingame like it and it isn't an exploit. But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Jolliejoe OK, granted... the gm's like people stealing salvage and a lot of people ingame like it and it isn't an exploit. But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre. Which isn't true, but more importantly, it's irrelevant. Figure out how to get the salvage yourself, figure out how to make good isk mission running without it, or figure out another way to make your isk. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
xenoin The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:38:00 - [14] Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW.
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.26 19:45:00 - [15] The obvious solution to the problem is to remove missions from the game. Make it so salvage can only be gained from pvp wrecks and thats that...easy as pie..lol Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Space Wanderer Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.26 21:52:00 - [16] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 26/03/2008 21:55:09 Originally by: Jolliejoe But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre. Too many assumptions methinks... 1) "Fact", "Essential"? By whose meter, really? "Fact" is only that salvaging is A source of income of the mission runner, the "essential" part is purely YOUR opinion. Which is easily contestble anyway. 2) Have you thought that during the time lost having to change ship, salvaging and then changing ship again you could run a good chunk of another lvl4? 3) It's not like you can't do anything about rogue salvagers (which I think is a better definition than the incorrect "salvage thieves"). You have tons of choices about that, if that source of income were so "essential". It's just you don't want to take them. Words are cheap, the actions of the people speak more clearly. I guess that the "salvage thieves" are not that much of a problem for you if you can't even be bothered to take one of the many possible precautions.
Nitemare111 Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.26 22:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Revan Tiberius Whine whine whine, cry, ***, suck thumb. Rant, wet self, hug teddy, whine some more. Sob, whine, whine, whine, whine. WoW drool, whine whine whine whine WHINE! Moan, gripe, cry some more. Revan Tiberius Mechanics of salvage are following real world salvage laws. They are working as intended, not our fault you're a whiney little girl. ------ "When in doubt, aim for the crotch." "There's no problem that the application of suitable firepower cannot fix." Originally by:** A Belief Nothing is yours until it's ISK in your wallet. So it goes.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.26 23:53:00 - [18] Quote: But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre. Oh poor you. It's not enough that you get LPs, standing, and more ISK than most professions in EVE at no real risk at all. You're just trying to get by. Yeah, you missionrunners have it real tough
Baldemar The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.27 00:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Durzel Don't mission out of busy hubs maybe? I'm running L4 missions for a Q16 agent and I haven't even seen anyone else appear in my mission, much less ninja-loot/salvage anything. What Durzel said... If you have a bunch of people picking apart your wrecks, chances are you've picked a very popular spot. As a suggestion, take a mild hit on agent quality and chances are the area will be less populated with mission runners.
Dotard Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.27 01:25:00 - [20] Boobies! --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Cypher V Silent-I.K.Y	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:14:00 - [21] EPIC FAIL ---------------------------------------------- Yeeees, YEEEES! Sell all your Cargo Expander IIs in Jita and Rens... Let MEEE have the profit...
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:37:00 - [22] Im going to break a cardinal Salvagers rule and tell you how to reduce the salvage "thieves" intrusions. While doing missions, attempt to do them without drones. Most probers are finding you by tracking them. Bookmark your rooms with each jump. Turn in your mission BEFORE you return to salvage. This will eliminate the jump gates which most probers bookmark and enter when you leave. In the least it will save you the salvage from the last room because they will not have reached it yet and when you turn in the mission they no longer have a way to get there. Don't smack talk the salvager that does show up. Simply advise him to leave. If he fails to leave then blow them up. Aside from this the best bet is to salvage as you go. Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
syphurous Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.27 03:52:00 - [23] This will explain it all in a carefully put together diagram. Originally by: GM Faolchu People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong.
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2008.03.27 10:48:00 - [24] Edited by: Dahak2150 on 27/03/2008 10:49:15 Originally by: Revan Tiberius Revan Tiberius Thank you ever so much for signing your name. Truly I wouldn't have known who had written the post without it. You see, I have a medical condition that prevents me from peering anything more than two degrees to the left. The right side is fine, but woe be upon the avatar whose name is automatically placed on the left of every post along with their name and their picture. You sir, are a hero. I hope to see everyone following your example. -Dahak2150, Chaos Monkeys, Caldari Civire.
Roche Pso Deltole Research Labs	Posted - 2008.03.27 11:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Commander OTG Im going to break a cardinal Salvagers rule and tell you how to reduce the salvage "thieves" intrusions. ... Don't smack talk the salvager that does show up. Simply advise him to leave. If he fails to leave then blow them up. Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future.
Chaundra Ratami A GmbH	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Dahak2150 Edited by: Dahak2150 on 27/03/2008 10:49:15 Originally by: Revan Tiberius Revan Tiberius Thank you ever so much for signing your name. Truly I wouldn't have known who had written the post without it. You see, I have a medical condition that prevents me from peering anything more than two degrees to the left. The right side is fine, but woe be upon the avatar whose name is automatically placed on the left of every post along with their name and their picture. You sir, are a hero. I hope to see everyone following your example. -Dahak2150, Chaos Monkeys, Caldari Civire. And you Sir, clearly pawned this pathetic thread.
Jolliejoe Quad Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:54:00 - [27] unfortunately it doesn't work that way for the tards that are so "clever" to only salvage and not loot. You have no kill rights then which is stupid to begin with. But since Gm's think it is perfectly fair, that says enough about the gm's and CCP.
Jolliejoe Quad Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 13:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Jolliejoe on 27/03/2008 13:58:14 Originally by: xenoin Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW. Again, you are missing the point totally. That is not the point.. Reread this thread again dude. And to the previous posters who are addressing me personally: I'm more than self sufficient and if people do try to come into my missions I'll simply pop every single wreck. They will leave soon enough. I don't have a problem with salvage thieves because they do not show up. I have enough other means of income also. The fact that I'm responding in A thread doesn't necessarily means that thread applies to me now does it?
Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:14:00 - [29] I've never had salvage looted on a mission, even though I sometimes spend time in a relatively busy mission hub. However, I can see how annoying this might be, especially as you have no recourse. The idea that "Eve is a harsh place" is a joke. It isn't harsh for the people looting the salvage. As always, the "mechanics" that allow people to be ass-hats (because lets face it, you aren't looting salvage because it's the quickest route to a profit, you are doing it because you want to `grief' the other player), are defended in threads like this by said ass-hats. The real question is just how old does your mental age have to be to spend your free time griefing mission runners?
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:32:00 - [30] I can salvage a large size mission in about 20 minutes...getting anywhere from 10 to 15 million on average. For the last week I have tracked not only the average value of salvage per hour, but then the average gained from rigs I created from those same salvage parts...which can exceed 20 million. Granted there was an initial investment in the blueprints, which is more then paid for, as well as the ships that I have set up specifically for the job and the implants to improve my abilities...but one long weekend covered all that. I would say that salvaging can be quite lucrative. just day before yesterday i stumbled across a low grade snake epsilon implant that the owner gave me 100 million for finding it. Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 14:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Commander OTG I can salvage a large size mission in about 20 minutes...getting anywhere from 10 to 15 million on average. Maybe on Worlds Collide, yes, but on most other missions I've run, the salvage will net you 2 - 7m max and that's if you salvage everything. You'd make far more with your time actually running the missions, collecting the bounties and LP.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Burnharder The idea that "Eve is a harsh place" is a joke. It isn't harsh for the people looting the salvage. Maybe. I guess it depends on what you mean by "harsh" or what you think the game's designers do. If it means "much exposed to highly predictable and profitable NPC combat", salvagers don't have it very harsh. Inherently though, they do have to compete with other players a lot: mission runners, other salvagers, and marketeers. I believe that this player vs. player contention is more what is meant by "harsh" and that it has very little at all to do with the NPC side of the game. By that standard, ninja salvaging is a more in line with EVE's ethos than, say, mission running. The corollary to this is that any element of player contention salvaging brings to mission running is A Good ThingÖ. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: Commander OTG I can salvage a large size mission in about 20 minutes...getting anywhere from 10 to 15 million on average. Maybe on Worlds Collide, yes, but on most other missions I've run, the salvage will net you 2 - 7m max and that's if you salvage everything. You'd make far more with your time actually running the missions, collecting the bounties and LP. I think you're basically right, though a lot must depend on which hub they're salvaging in. I'd guess the advantages in the less lucrative hubs are that they don't have to grind up standings, and that maybe they find probing, hunting, and competing with other players for iskies more interesting than dealing with pure PvE. But I have to say it's funny how mission runners who are angry about the salvage system--like in this very thread--so often have exactly the opposite view that you do. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
xenoin The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.27 16:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Jolliejoe Edited by: Jolliejoe on 27/03/2008 13:58:14 Originally by: xenoin Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW. Again, you are missing the point totally. That is not the point.. Reread this thread again dude. And to the previous posters who are addressing me personally: I'm more than self sufficient and if people do try to come into my missions I'll simply pop every single wreck. They will leave soon enough. I don't have a problem with salvage thieves because they do not show up. I have enough other means of income also. The fact that I'm responding in A thread doesn't necessarily means that thread applies to me now does it? The POINT is that you do not like people being able to intrude on your missions. I mean salvage an "essential part" is complete bs. You make money on bounties, you get the mission isk reward, you get the lp but you WANT the salvage too. Oh dears missions ain't perfect, get over it.
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:39:00 - [35] An example of what i have salvaged in the last 45 minutes. Alloyed Tritanium Bars..........21 $9.5 million worth Armor Plates....................31 $4.1 million worth Broken Drone Transceivers.......16 Burned Logic Circuits...........131 Charred Micro Circuits..........119 Conductive Polymer..............87 Contaminated Lorentz Fluid......11 Contaminated Nanite Fluid.......22 Damaged Artificial Neural.......92 Defective Current Pump..........26 Fried Interface Circuit.........166 $3 million worth Malfunctioning Shield Emitter...114 Melted Capicitor console........31 $8 million worth Scorched Telemetry Processor....351 Tangled Power Conduit...........44 Tripped Power Circuit...........182 $3 million worth Ward Console....................102 Average ingame prices used to calculate...... One advantage I have is that I have befriended a few mission runners that will gang me and allow me to tractor in the wrecks. I return the favor by offering them 50% of the take, nost of which refuse (thank you again). Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.27 17:51:00 - [36] What system do you salvage in?
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.03.27 18:08:00 - [37] I have 14 systems so far that I have intricate bookmark grids set up. This morning was spent 6 jumps from Motsu. I typically work the systems between Motsu and Urlen. Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Miller Vance The System	Posted - 2008.03.27 19:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Jolliejoe OK, granted... the gm's like people stealing salvage and a lot of people ingame like it and it isn't an exploit. But fact is that salvage is an essential part of the mission runners income. Without the salvage it becomes totally useless to do missions because the bounties alone are mediocre. Umm, EVE had a long history before the salvage system was even at the design phase, to say it's an essential part of a mission runner's income is patently false... It augments a mission runner's income, but if salvage is really how you're making all your money running missions you might want to consider investing some time reading mission guides cause you're obviously missing something.
Iomar Uisdean Manti Corp	Posted - 2008.03.27 21:10:00 - [39] Hmm, I have yet to experience having someone "liberate" the salvage that is generated during my missioning. I wonder why that is? Oh, right. I don't mission in the hubs where there's hordes of other missioners and the professional salvagers plus the handful of folks who probe out hi-sec missions for amusement. On top of that, I salvage as I go. 7th slot on a Nighthawk is a handy place to mount a salvage module. Got plenty of cargo space for salvage plus any interesting loot I find. It's actually not too uncommon for me to be able to fit all but the really bulky crap into my hold for an entire level 4 mission. Also, good luck finding my mission in the first place. I don't use drones, I watch directional and local closely, chances are very good I'll see the probes long before they see me. Oh yeah, forgot the last part. If someone is probing my mission, the salvage is the least of my worries and it's highly unlikely that's what they're after in lowsec. If someone actually finds my mission before I safespot (i.e. I wasn't paying close enough attention), they are welcome to any loot or salvage left behind. Finally, I can't guarantee that I won't come back with a more suitable ship to reclaim "my" salvage.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.27 22:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean Hmm, I have yet to experience having someone "liberate" the salvage that is generated during my missioning. I wonder why that is? Oh, right. I don't mission in the hubs where there's hordes of other missioners and the professional salvagers plus the handful of folks who probe out hi-sec missions for amusement. On top of that, I salvage as I go. 7th slot on a Nighthawk is a handy place to mount a salvage module. Got plenty of cargo space for salvage plus any interesting loot I find. It's actually not too uncommon for me to be able to fit all but the really bulky crap into my hold for an entire level 4 mission. Also, good luck finding my mission in the first place. I don't use drones, I watch directional and local closely, chances are very good I'll see the probes long before they see me. Oh yeah, forgot the last part. If someone is probing my mission, the salvage is the least of my worries and it's highly unlikely that's what they're after in lowsec. If someone actually finds my mission before I safespot (i.e. I wasn't paying close enough attention), they are welcome to any loot or salvage left behind. Finally, I can't guarantee that I won't come back with a more suitable ship to reclaim "my" salvage. Oh god, THIS
syphurous Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.28 03:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Roche Pso Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Incursus tanks gank brutix and mission raven, I know, I salvaged their wrecks and looted them, they weren't going to be coming back to get it anytime soon ( well 15 min anyway lol ). CN loot FTW Originally by: GM Faolchu People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong.
SETH KAIN Astrodynamic Innovations	Posted - 2008.03.28 05:50:00 - [42] Personally I respect the skills of any salvager that is able to probe me out on a mission and it also adds a certain amount of risk when doing missions even in empire. When probed out I never smack the intruder I just waste every frickin wreck in the mission and move on. SETH
Roche Pso Deltole Research Labs	Posted - 2008.03.28 08:16:00 - [43] Originally by: syphurous Originally by: Roche Pso Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Incursus tanks gank brutix and mission raven, I know, I salvaged their wrecks and looted them, they weren't going to be coming back to get it anytime soon ( well 15 min anyway lol ). CN loot FTW Missioners... please ignore that post, shooting salvagers is definitley the best way to deal with them
Durzel State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.01 17:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Roche Pso Originally by: Commander OTG Im going to break a cardinal Salvagers rule and tell you how to reduce the salvage "thieves" intrusions. ... Don't smack talk the salvager that does show up. Simply advise him to leave. If he fails to leave then blow them up. Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. Salvaging doesn't flag you, so the mission runner can't shoot you without Concord getting involved. You'd have to start stealing loot really before they'd take a pop at you, and even then it's a gamble given a ninja-salvager could be a PvP-fit ship in disguise with a web/scram, whereas mission runners have no need for things like that (nor ship scanners to even assess their chances).
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.04.01 18:44:00 - [45] Quote: Speaking as a salvager myself, being blown up really does ruin my day. If I turn up in a mission and start stealing your loot then the best thing to do is to take a pop at me, there is no way my untanked ship can stand up to a CNR, so this is definitley something that will make me avoid you in future. It's a really, REALLY stupid idea for a CNR to shoot at someone ninja LOOTING (ninja SALVAGING doesn't flag you). Sure, 3/4 of the time you pop his cheap ship/scare him off...that 1/4, though, will come back in a PVP ship and waste your expensive mission ship.
Nekopyat Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.01 19:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Myshella Drake Originally by: Revan Tiberius i dont think i will go away and no i aint going to post in one of the other 38234729 threads on this dam forum Thats right, because your whine is sooo incredibly revolutionary and important that it requires its own thread. but but, he is bringing such new and refeshing ideas to the table! look at that insightfullness! Heh. Though I do admit, I think any mission that has, as part of it's briefing 'kill everyone who shows up' should automatically flag players enterting as hostile and thus free game.
YourDaddi Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.02 05:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius The crying when viewed in relation to that tough guy avatar you chose is priceless irony. nice one
Svedge	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:31:00 - [48] Edited by: Svedge on 02/04/2008 23:31:33 Edited by: Svedge on 02/04/2008 23:31:15 A tard wasted his ship to Concord today, he had been furious on me the last two days for finding his mission site. He and his friends scanned me down, but he went alone to greet me with his blazing turrets .
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:37:00 - [49] If you're trying to be objective about it, there wasn't a great way to deal with the issue. The logic gets tortured either way. I think the devs like leaving it the way it is because . . . well, anything that weeds out the weak - or at leasts makes them melt down in public - is a plus. The thing is, salvaging wrecks is allowed because the wreck doesn't belong to anyone. That's inconsistent with the fact that the loot inside the wreck does belong to the person who made the wreck. That would be like saying its theft steal someones cigarettes from an abandoned car, but its just fine to dismantle the whole thing to get the radio out. Also, unless things have changed, concord definately does care if you decide to shoot someone else's wreck, instead of salvaging it. And what, exactly, is the logic behind being able to tractor your own wrecks, but not those you just stumbled across? There's also an problem with the argument that missions should have danger, that mission runners shouldn't expect reward with no risk. That is exactly what hi sec ninja salvagers are getting. If the mission runner has to expect someoene can ninja his wreck, the salvager should have to expect something unfortunate could happen to him, too. I'm not into ninja salvaging, but do support the idea. I do think they need to handle it in a way that makes sense. Maybe we'd be best off if they declared that loot is a ffa and doesn't belong to anyone. And they better upgrade the forum servers before they make that move. ;-)
Oldin Kinrod Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Msobe The thing is, salvaging wrecks is allowed because the wreck doesn't belong to anyone. That's inconsistent with the fact that the loot inside the wreck does belong to the person who made the wreck. That would be like saying its theft steal someones cigarettes from an abandoned car, but its just fine to dismantle the whole thing to get the radio out. You are correct, there are two different things happening. That is also because they are two different things. People like to lump them together, but they are separate entities requiring different ways to extract the goodness. Quote: Also, unless things have changed, concord definately does care if you decide to shoot someone else's wreck, instead of salvaging it. And what, exactly, is the logic behind being able to tractor your own wrecks, but not those you just stumbled across? This is most likely due to code sharing (THIS IS MY ASSUMPTION) as the same happens with jetcans as well. As for why you cannot tractor others stuff, you can if they are in the same corp, most probably a design decision when implementing tractor beams. Quote: There's also an problem with the argument that missions should have danger, that mission runners shouldn't expect reward with no risk. That is exactly what hi sec ninja salvagers are getting. If the mission runner has to expect someoene can ninja his wreck, the salvager should have to expect something unfortunate could happen to him, too. And they already do, they have the risk (if probing anywhere other than a mission hub) of wasting time and probes findng nothing. They also risk that the mission runner will turn the agro towards the salvager. It still stands that (unless the mission runner is ill equipt and doesn't research their missions) there is no risk for the mission runner - you can basically set up a ship to sit in one spot, tank the damage and slowly pick everyone off. I do like how you've made the same mistake as others though, the wreck doesn't belong to the mission runner. If anything it belongs to the poor NPC he just blew up. To say the wreck is owned by the mission runner, is to say your wreck belongs to me if I blew your ship up. It already doesn't make much sense in terms of loot. Quote: I'm not into ninja salvaging, but do support the idea. I do think they need to handle it in a way that makes sense. Maybe we'd be best off if they declared that loot is a ffa and doesn't belong to anyone. And they better upgrade the forum servers before they make that move. ;-) We should, as since its inception it hasn't worked as the miners had hoped and causes problems for new player who don't know any better (and would also return the meaning of 'jettison" back too). People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:56:00 - [51] So much for making a (I thought) clear post. You manage to misunderstand me anyhow. Basically, logic isn't on your side. But don't worry, its not on the other side either. That's my post in a nut shell. Strange you'd decide to pick my post apart and contradict me when my view is that ninja salvaging should be just fine - so agree with my conclusion but whine about my reasoning? OOOOKAY. You're being an idiot if you refuse to see anything odd about loot belonging to the person who made the wreck, while the wreck belongs to no one. It should be one way or the other, not one way in once case and arbitrarily different in the other. (I take the view that either way would be fine, but the more intersting way would be to say that neither loot nor wrecks have an "owner.") Still, you take a logical argument for why you should get to salvage, but then where game logic goes against you, say its just the way it is, and doesn't mean anything. Just code sharing, you assume. Or a design decision. But still, if CONCORD cares enough to blow you up for shooting a wreck, why are you allowed to salvage it? Pick a response, then stick to it. If its no one's wreck, everyone should get to use (or abuse) it however they see fit. Same for tractoring - if you are free to salvage a wreck, there's no reasonable reason that can be given for why you can not tractor it as well. No one is dumb enough to buy your assessment of a ninja salvager's risks. As you say, they run a risk if they aren't probing around a mission hub. I wonder exactly where the hordes of people are who probe out mission runners in empty systems. If you imagine someone would, yeah, he'd be running a risk of turning up empty. If he is in a busy area, he has zero risk. So the only risk you have is if you decide to hang out in a room full of rats . . . if you make that choice, yes, you choose to take a risk. Its entirely up to you though - you can always BM and come back later. And if mission running is risk free - why do people occasionally lose mission ships? It can be relatively safe, but is never 100% loss proof. Unlike ninja salvaging. I don't make any claims that wrecks belong to anyone. I say "his wreck" for convenience. You can feel free to substitute anything that works for you. Possibly "any wrecks which come in to existence due to aggressive actions on a third party by a mission runner" if that works better for you.
Oldin Kinrod	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:37:00 - [52] Originally by: Msobe So much for making a (I thought) clear post. You manage to misunderstand me anyhow. I think we have misunderstood each other, I was merely adding to you post - sorry if it seemed I was attacking your opinion. I agree that there are many inconsistencies when it comes to loot and salvage, I was just reiterating what has been stated time and time again from Devs and GMs. My point about loot is valid, as when I started playing unless it was in your cargohold it was fair game for anyone to collect. This mirrored the same regardless if it was a player or an NPC that was killed. The logic was then screwed up with can flagging. As for the code sharing comment - this was not meant to be a logical argument of why you should get salvage, but my opinion on why it could be working the way it does. I hadn't stated my opinion on whether I liked it that way or not. And as for tractoring rights, this again was my opinion on how I had seen it work - not whether I thought it was logical or valid. Onto your assessment of risks - it has been stated across the board that mission running is relatively risk free - as i stated in my response. Sure people lose ships in missions, I have even done so myself - but this (which goes back to my statement) was because I didn't research my mission and wasn't set up for it. Just like ninja salvaging has the same risks, the salvager risks that he could jump into someones mission and get blown to pieces by the rats. Whether you want to accept this as risk is up to you but it is still a risk the salvagers have. And I apologise for the statement assuming you meant "his wreck" as ownership. Personally I would have just gone with "the wreck", but sure I can see what you were doing. My stance on this whole issue is that can/loot flagging rights is what is causing the confusing about ownership, and my opinion is to revert it back to how it used to be. People stealing your wrecks? Players intruding your missions?
Vacca Indomita Neighbour of the Beast	Posted - 2008.04.03 04:31:00 - [53] I think the following situation could theoretically satisfy the questions about Concord's attitude about cans and wrecks: When a ship is destroyed, it always leaves a can inside the wreckage. Wrecks are not tractorable, only the can inside the wreck, which drags the wreckage with it. Thus, if a mission runner chooses to blow up his own can(taking the wreck with it) Concord doesn't care. Once wreckage is salvaged, it leaves the can naked to space, which empty cans cannot withstand, so they immediately go pop. Just a Hypothesis
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.03 08:46:00 - [54] In addition to what Oldin Kinrod said about risk, there is the threat of violent reprecussions from the missioners. I've been told to watch it and that it won't be as fun when I find myself podded and so on many times. True, it hasn't happened yet, but I expect it won't be long now
perix	Posted - 2008.04.03 10:01:00 - [55] If you do not like people ninjaing your salvage just ask a noob in the corporation to do it for you. It should leave little salvage left and make you and the noob quite happy.
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.03 14:09:00 - [56] We do mostly agree, Oldin. On the risks, we don't, and I'm maybe a little less accepting of the decision to just leave a contradictory situation in place. But we don't really have any major argument. Risk-wise - I see a big difference in the amount of risk a mission runner takes compared to a salvager. Just like I see a huge difference in the risk a mission runner takes compared to a pirate. I think there should be more risk for the salvager, or less reward. Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Missions can be low risk if the pilot is smart and attentive. Salvaging is low risk by its very nature. (And no, I don't think being threatened by a mission runner - who knows Concord will blow his ass out of the sky if he follows through - counts as a real sort of risk.) Vacca - thats an interesting way to explain the situation. Myself, I'd like to see the situation make sense without putting a lot of thought into it.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.03 15:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Msobe Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Missions can be low risk if the pilot is smart and attentive. Salvaging is low risk by its very nature. Mining. Don't even have to be smart and attentetive. A vital part of EVE. Originally by: Msobe (And no, I don't think being threatened by a mission runner - who knows Concord will blow his ass out of the sky if he follows through - counts as a real sort of risk.) Piratey types can suicide gank in high sec for profit, so surely missioners can do the same for revenge.
Tsanse Kinske	Posted - 2008.04.03 17:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Msobe Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Are we even playing the same game? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lucy Lucy	Posted - 2008.04.03 23:25:00 - [59] To the salvagers: As an occasional mission runner, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to salvage my mission. Most of the time I could care less about the salvage. But I think it's rude to just pop in and start just becuase you can.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.04.03 23:53:00 - [60] Quote: To the salvagers: As an occasional mission runner, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to salvage my mission. Most of the time I could care less about the salvage. But I think it's rude to just pop in and start just becuase you can. To pirates: As an occasional lowsec ratter, all I ask is that you ask me if it's okay to ransom my ship. Most of the time it's somewhat and I could care less, but I think it's rude to just warp in and demand that of me.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.04.04 02:08:00 - [61] Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius Punctuation.
Msobe Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.04.04 02:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Sigul Siento Originally by: Msobe Its not very in-line with the EVE "feel" to let people profit with very, very low risk. Missions can be low risk if the pilot is smart and attentive. Salvaging is low risk by its very nature. Mining. Don't even have to be smart and attentetive. A vital part of EVE. Originally by: Msobe (And no, I don't think being threatened by a mission runner - who knows Concord will blow his ass out of the sky if he follows through - counts as a real sort of risk.) Piratey types can suicide gank in high sec for profit, so surely missioners can do the same for revenge. Mining in high sec? I don't think veldspar counts as profit. If salvaging yielded the same kind of profit it'd be a different story. It already has the same risk - rats can spawn and eat your mining frig is you aren't paying attention. I don't think any of you are gonna say its as risky to do lvl 1 missions as lvl 4. But its just as nearly risk free to salvage someone's lvl 4 as lvl 1 . . . while being way more profitable. Piratey types are far more likely to pose as a salvager to attempt to prod a missioner into attacking them for an easy kill than to pose as a mission runner in hopes of suicide ganking a salvager. More fun to kill a CNR or a salvaging frig? There's really no point in suicide ganking someone in a ship like that, they'll replace it for less than it cost you to kill them. Since people do love to whine though, if there truly were any risk to ninja salvaging, the forum would already be full of threads about how people got tricked into looting, then shot, or had rats allowed to blow them up, or, well, that they were soundly threatened by an incensed mission runner. Since I'm not seeing it . . . just don't buy it.
Zifrian Gallente Federal Bank Interstellar Corporate Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 06:52:00 - [63] I have never encountered anyone stealing my salvage. Maybe you are mission running in a populated system and need a less populated agent?
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.04 07:19:00 - [64] Edited by: Sigul Siento on 04/04/2008 07:21:29 Originally by: Msobe Mining in high sec? I don't think veldspar counts as profit. If salvaging yielded the same kind of profit it'd be a different story. It already has the same risk - rats can spawn and eat your mining frig is you aren't paying attention. Of course it's profit. It might not be lvl 4 missions type profit, but profit it is. And high sec belt rats is very, very low risk. That you might get popped if you are afk shouldn't really count as risk, it's more an issue of stupidity. And as I understand it there aren't belt rats at all in the highest sec systems. So, mining in high sec is a traditional eve endeavour, with profit and very, very low risk. Originally by: Msobe I don't think any of you are gonna say its as risky to do lvl 1 missions as lvl 4. But its just as nearly risk free to salvage someone's lvl 4 as lvl 1 . . . while being way more profitable. It's riskier than mining, because of the unpredictability of it. Aren't too many battleship rats and scambling frigs in high sec belts, but there are in missions. And you have to do more for your profit than both miners and missioners. They can just go get a guaranteed mission (they might fail it for various reasons, but they can always get one), or go to a belt and mine the asteroids (sure it might be strip mined right then, but you know where to find other belts). Salvagers have to actively search for something that might or might not be there. Originally by: Msobe Piratey types are far more likely to pose as a salvager to attempt to prod a missioner into attacking them for an easy kill than to pose as a mission runner in hopes of suicide ganking a salvager. More fun to kill a CNR or a salvaging frig? There's really no point in suicide ganking someone in a ship like that, they'll replace it for less than it cost you to kill them. I didn't say pirates would come gank salvagers, I said missioners who feel offended by the salvaging (even though it's perfectly legal and they only have themselves to blame for leaving wrecks behind) could take revenge if they had the guts. Which they don't, though the threats are frequent enough. Originally by: Msobe Since people do love to whine though, if there truly were any risk to ninja salvaging, the forum would already be full of threads about how people got tricked into looting, then shot, or had rats allowed to blow them up, or, well, that they were soundly threatened by an incensed mission runner. Since I'm not seeing it . . . just don't buy it. I'm reasonably certain there are a lot more missioners than salvagers, that's one reason for the overabundance of missioner whining. Another reason could be that salvaging is a competetive activity, whereas missioning isn't. Missions are always available, and they expect to get it all guaranteed. Salvagers should have no such expectation, and would then be less likely to whine if things don't go their way.
Space Wanderer Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.04 10:44:00 - [65] Originally by: Sigul Siento I didn't say pirates would come gank salvagers, I said missioners who feel offended by the salvaging (even though it's perfectly legal and they only have themselves to blame for leaving wrecks behind) could take revenge if they had the guts. My guess is that you have just given support to the go-salvagers viewpoint. Mission runners have only themselves to blame, that's it. It's like abandoning valuables lying on the street and then try to have somebody else arrested for theft if he picks them up. Although politeness requires to ask, many people are simply not polite, and still not doing anything illegal. If people want to be able to shoot others for being rude there's lowsec just a few systems away.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.04.04 10:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Msobe You're being an idiot if you refuse to see anything odd about loot belonging to the person who made the wreck, while the wreck belongs to no one. It should be one way or the other, not one way in once case and arbitrarily different in the other. (I take the view that either way would be fine, but the more intersting way would be to say that neither loot nor wrecks have an "owner.") Still, you take a logical argument for why you should get to salvage, but then where game logic goes against you, say its just the way it is, and doesn't mean anything. Just code sharing, you assume. Or a design decision. But still, if CONCORD cares enough to blow you up for shooting a wreck, why are you allowed to salvage it? Pick a response, then stick to it. If its no one's wreck, everyone should get to use (or abuse) it however they see fit. Same for tractoring - if you are free to salvage a wreck, there's no reasonable reason that can be given for why you can not tractor it as well. If you shoot the jetcan, you get CONCORD on you. If you shoot the WRECK, it is the same act, becuse it is the jetcan at the same time. HOWEVER if you salvage the wreck, the jetcan remains, thus the owner of the loot is NOT harmed - no CONCORD. People make half-assed arguments all over this place. The ideal solution would be: 1. Wreck is flagged to anyone who owned the ship prior to destruction, same goes for the loot inside - just like for player ships. 2. Jetcan is flagged to anyone who created it. 3. Wreck flag caries over to the jetcan inside. This would be consistent AND correct, yet the mission runners would cry like there's no tomorrow. You see game design and logic do not always meet ... Waiting for the patch that patches the last patch ...
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.06 14:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Sigul Siento Of course it's profit. It might not be lvl 4 missions type profit, but profit it is. And high sec belt rats is very, very low risk. That you might get popped if you are afk shouldn't really count as risk, it's more an issue of stupidity. And as I understand it there aren't belt rats at all in the highest sec systems. So, mining in high sec is a traditional eve endeavour, with profit and very, very low risk. It's riskier than mining, because of the unpredictability of it. Aren't too many battleship rats and scambling frigs in high sec belts, but there are in missions. And you have to do more for your profit than both miners and missioners. They can just go get a guaranteed mission (they might fail it for various reasons, but they can always get one), or go to a belt and mine the asteroids (sure it might be strip mined right then, but you know where to find other belts). Salvagers have to actively search for something that might or might not be there. I didn't say pirates would come gank salvagers, I said missioners who feel offended by the salvaging (even though it's perfectly legal and they only have themselves to blame for leaving wrecks behind) could take revenge if they had the guts. Which they don't, though the threats are frequent enough. I'm reasonably certain there are a lot more missioners than salvagers, that's one reason for the overabundance of missioner whining. Another reason could be that salvaging is a competetive activity, whereas missioning isn't. Missions are always available, and they expect to get it all guaranteed. Salvagers should have no such expectation, and would then be less likely to whine if things don't go their way. The profit from mining is in line with the risks. Low profit. Low risk. (High sec.) The true risk of mining is theft, belt rats are a minor annoyance. The rats are just about as risky to the miner as mission rats are to a salvager - if a salvager decides to stick around inside a mission before the rats have been destroyed, he takes a risk. If he drops a BM and warps out, he doesn't. The only thing I'm pointing out about salvaging risk reward is that there really is very low risk, but not such a low reward. Higher risk would make it more fun. If you think mission runners aren't popping more salvagers because of guts . . . well, its funny to call someone a coward when you're defending the lowest risk path to profit, outside of sitting in Jita trading. I've never had salvage "stolen," but if I did wouldn't look for revenge. First, I don't think the salvage is "mine," and second why would I suicide gank your cute little t1 frig or cruiser. Suicide ganking makes sense if its a silly CNR stuffed with faction mods. It doesn't make sense when the ship + fittings cost you as much as a few bits of salvage. The balance of mission runners to salvagers doesn't explain the complete and utter lack of whining salvagers. Its because they have nothing to whine about. Its not because its competitive, so it only attracts non-whining type people. PvP is very competitive, and leads to more whine/boost/nerf threads than any other activity in the game. Why are salvagers so down on me, when I keep saying ninja salvaging should stay in game? The way its done atm doesn't make sense, but it doesn't mean you have to remove that possibility to make it right.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.06 15:45:00 - [68] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 06/04/2008 15:45:33 It's hard to say how profitable it is. The credible numbers I've seen seem to put it around 10kisk/hour for people who are really professional about it. I've seen bigger numbers too, but they never seem to account for all the time and less profitable hours they spent. Obviously there's a huge spread though, since it depends so much on where they're doing it and how lucky they get finding the right missions, uncontested, and in a small amount of time. I don't know if it's really even an answerable question without a ton of data. Fortunately, that is beside the point. If there is actually an imbalance here, if salvaging is disproportionately lucrative for the risk, time, effort, and fun involved, than that's what's called an - opportunity -. In other words, it will become less profitable as more people get involved in it, whether its more independent salvagers, or mission runners becoming more proactive about ensuring that they get it for themselves. The funny thing is, the low barrier of entry into salvaging is what ensures this--anybody can get involved very easily if they want. Really this is just like any other market opportunity, except that it means player competition in space, something a lot of hisec mission runners haven't gotten used to. And -that's- why there's is so much complaining about it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Sigul Siento Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.06 16:38:00 - [69] Edited by: Sigul Siento on 06/04/2008 16:40:49 Originally by: Msobe Why are salvagers so down on me, when I keep saying ninja salvaging should stay in game? The way its done atm doesn't make sense, but it doesn't mean you have to remove that possibility to make it right. But it DOES make sense to many of us, and that point of view has been explained countless times so I don't feel obliged to repeat it. As for the profit of it, it is highly unpredictable. It's not all titanium bars, there's lots of fruitless searching involved. Keep in mind we're talking about ninja-salvagers, those who are on friendly terms with missioners and get exact locations, with or without having to share the profits, should make a lot more as they don't have to search.
SheriffFruitfly	Posted - 2008.04.06 17:23:00 - [70] The "logic" behind allowing salvage to be stolen but not loot is specious fo sho. But it's their game, and they wanted to force pvp on people, and that's how they did it. Now, back to training astro5....
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:02:00 - [71] Originally by: Space Wanderer rogue salvagers (which I think is a better definition than the incorrect "salvage thieves") I prefer the term "salvage ninja" myself.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Commander OTG I have 14 systems so far that I have intricate bookmark grids set up. This morning was spent 6 jumps from Motsu. I typically work the systems between Motsu and Urlen. I tried Motsu the other day and I have to say fully half my probe hits were on other Herons, Probes and Imicus. Sometimes three of us would wind up at the same acceleration gate. I know some much less-contested systems but I'm not telling!
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:24:00 - [73] Originally by: Msobe Since people do love to whine though, if there truly were any risk to ninja salvaging, the forum would already be full of threads about how people got tricked into looting, then shot, or had rats allowed to blow them up, or, well, that they were soundly threatened by an incensed mission runner. Since I'm not seeing it . . . just don't buy it. Hmmm... not sure if I buy this argument. Do pirates regularly whine about how their targets fought back and killed them? Not really. Ninja salvaging is deliberate mischief and thus we enjoy the challenge and the risk. I will usually try to steal the mission item before warping out, just to make things a little more interesting. If I get killed, I'm not going to whine on the forums about how it should be easier.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.04.06 18:29:00 - [74] Originally by: SETH KAIN Personally I respect the skills of any salvager that is able to probe me out on a mission and it also adds a certain amount of risk when doing missions even in empire. When probed out I never smack the intruder I just waste every frickin wreck in the mission and move on. SETH Seth, I would consider it a victory when the mission runner starts shooting his own wrecks. The competitive thrill is from beating the carebear at his own game. Shooting your own wrecks is analogous to a PVP duelist pressing self-destruct rather than fight. It means I beat you without having to do the work myself. If you really want to foil the ninja, leave the mission space and don't come back for a few hours. No way can I finish off the rats myself, I'll just move on to the next target. If I can't sell the rats.
Kyra Felann Noir.	Posted - 2008.04.06 23:23:00 - [75] There is no such thing as "stealing salvage". It's not your salvage until it's in your cargo hold.
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2008.04.07 04:22:00 - [76] Originally by: Kyra Felann There is no such thing as "stealing salvage". It's not your salvage until it's in your cargo hold. This. By design, it is IMPOSSIBLE to steal salvage as wrecks belong to no one. Anyone can just come along and salvage. Try to rub a few neurons together in a productive way; learn to play the game- this is not any kind of difficult problem.
Night Tripper	Posted - 2008.04.07 11:03:00 - [77] so does that mean if i was to trash your car, it would belong to me now?
Diablo Ka	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:20:00 - [78] I must admit i find salvage theivs annoying. however thay do have a point EVE is a go any ware do anything game and you look for opertunitys every ware. I am a heavy misstion runner to fund many of my exploits in eve, people could say its unfair that thay cannot get acces to 0.0 space as every 1 is after killing you unless your in that soverantys aliance. the one way of making there lives extreamly uncomftable would be to hire a mercany corparation such as myself and let us take care of them
Kusha'an	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:52:00 - [79] Okay, this p issing contest is boring. Here's an alternative issue for everyone to sink their teeth into. Cans are flagged to the destroyer. Fine. Wrecks are tied to the can. Fine. So the wreck can't be tractored except by the destroyer. Fair enough. But when the loot is gone, the empty wreck should be tractorable if the wreck TRULY belongs to nobody. But as it stands right now, if you try to tractor an empty wreck that is yellow, you get a message that states that the wreck does not belong to you. The destroyer can still tractor the wreck. Hence the wreck still is "flagged" (to the extent of tractoring) to the "owner." Until CCP fixes this, this will be an amibiguous and annoying message sent to the salvage professional. Originally by: welsh wizard stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air.
Diablo Ka COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.04.07 13:02:00 - [80] good point i think CCP really needs to make a definet stance on this. the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think?
Tsanse Kinske	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Kusha'an Okay, this p issing contest is boring. Here's an alternative issue for everyone to sink their teeth into. Cans are flagged to the destroyer. Fine. Wrecks are tied to the can. Fine. So the wreck can't be tractored except by the destroyer. Fair enough. But when the loot is gone, the empty wreck should be tractorable if the wreck TRULY belongs to nobody. But as it stands right now, if you try to tractor an empty wreck that is yellow, you get a message that states that the wreck does not belong to you. The destroyer can still tractor the wreck. Hence the wreck still is "flagged" (to the extent of tractoring) to the "owner." Until CCP fixes this, this will be an amibiguous and annoying message sent to the salvage professional. Is there anything in the game with "no owner" that can be tractored? My guess, and it is just a guess, is that tractoring is hard coded to ownership. In other words, if nobody has ownership, - nobody - can tractor. I don't think mission runners would like this. Anyway, maybe I'm biased, but I don't see much value in sweeping game balance conclusions based on small technical details in CCP's quirky programming. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Msobe	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:56:00 - [82] Originally by: Kusha'an Okay, this p issing contest is boring. Here's an alternative issue for everyone to sink their teeth into. Cans are flagged to the destroyer. Fine. Wrecks are tied to the can. Fine. So the wreck can't be tractored except by the destroyer. Fair enough. But when the loot is gone, the empty wreck should be tractorable if the wreck TRULY belongs to nobody. But as it stands right now, if you try to tractor an empty wreck that is yellow, you get a message that states that the wreck does not belong to you. The destroyer can still tractor the wreck. Hence the wreck still is "flagged" (to the extent of tractoring) to the "owner." Until CCP fixes this, this will be an amibiguous and annoying message sent to the salvage professional. Yeah, this is the issue. People are tied to the fact that it already works this way, and more interested in making sense out of it, then arguing against any idea to make the whole thing make any kind of sense. - If wrecks belong to no one, CONCORD should ignore people shooting them. - If wrecks belong to no one, the loot inside should not either. - If wrecks belong to no one, they should be tractorable by anyone. Is there any reason that salvaging destroys a wreck, and deposits the contents in a jet can, while shooting a wreck destroys the wreck and the contents? I imagine a junk yard depositing all the loose change and roaches they find inside cars into little safe deposit boxes, in case the owner comes back for it, then dropping the car into a massive compactor to be sold off as scrap. The whole thing came up as an unintentional "loop hole" that was later determined to be fine. It just shows. Since they want "third party" salvaging to work, they should rethink the system around wrecks, loot, and flags so the scenario makes sense.
Tsanse Kinske	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Diablo Ka Edited by: Diablo Ka on 07/04/2008 13:06:43 good point i think CCP really needs to make a definet stance on this. the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so only in high sec ares withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think? Honestly, I think that would be a huge backwards step for a game built on being one, non-sharded, non-instanced universe. I mean, I understand that it's a big mental change for people who've never had to deal with it in hisec to understand that the mission deadspace isn't actually "their" little sealed off piece of galactic interstate, and that anybody who puts in the work can get into it. But you will come to terms with it, one way or another. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Diablo Ka COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.04.07 15:50:00 - [84] its certanly a topic that is set to go on for a long time and ether a change in the way salvage happens or eventual exeptance of the game dynamics needs to happen ultametly there is always somthing in eve thats going to anoy the hell out of you for me its the lag in the key misstion areas and the over kill in nerfing torps that have coursed the gratest frustration sofar.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.07 23:32:00 - [85] Originally by: Diablo Ka its certanly a topic that is set to go on for a long time and ether a change in the way salvage happens or eventual exeptance of the game dynamics needs to happen ultametly there is always somthing in eve thats going to anoy the hell out of you for me its the lag in the key misstion areas and the over kill in nerfing torps that have coursed the gratest frustration sofar. Lag in the mission areas annoys the Ninja salvager, too. But the Ninja is the one doing something to reduce it.
Svedge II Republic University	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:27:00 - [86] Edited by: Svedge II on 08/04/2008 18:30:12 LOL, instead of doing their mission-hub missions in Sasoutikh, the local carebear suicide goons (XpunisherX and Thormbus) are trying to hunt me down fulltime. Today I've only been looking for abandoned sites (scan, warp in, bookmark, warp out, warp back after a while), still they are coming after me.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.04.09 21:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske It's not a change, that's the way it's been since salvage was introduced. Actually you're wrong on this. When salvaging was first introduced you had to loot the wreck first before you could salvage it, and if you remember there was a bug in overview that you couldn't see what wrecks you looted - made salvaging a royal pain. People complained and they allowed salvaging before looting - thus we have the situation we have now. You are correct though in stating you were never flagged for salvaging. I trained salvaging the day it was released, and made around 1 billion in the first few days (salvaging static complexes ftw) ...those were the days.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.09 23:28:00 - [88] Wow, had to go back a few pages to figure out what you were talking about, and what I was. :P Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Tsanse Kinske It's not a change, that's the way it's been since salvage was introduced. Actually you're wrong on this. But wait!... Quote: You are correct though in stating you were never flagged for salvaging. Since it was a response to the OP, and that's actually all I said in context, rather than "Savaging has never changed. It's been the same way from the beginning," I don't believe I've earned any extra Wrongness Points this time. Yes, I too am aware of the history of salvaging in this silly game, which makes me a huge geek. I wish I could remember something more useful instead. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Veryez	Posted - 2008.04.10 01:33:00 - [89] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Since it was a response to the OP, and that's actually all I said in context, rather than "Savaging has never changed. It's been the same way from the beginning," I don't believe I've earned any extra Wrongness Points this time. Yes, I too am aware of the history of salvaging in this silly game, which makes me a huge geek. I wish I could remember something more useful instead. Fair enough And I resemble that geek comment too...
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.10 16:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Svedge II LOL, instead of doing their mission-hub missions in Sasoutikh, the local carebear suicide goons (XpunisherX and Thormbus) are trying to hunt me down fulltime. LoL at "carebear suicide goons" that's great and would actually make life a bit more interesting. Do like I do, set up a probing ship and a few salvaging ships in each of 4 or 5 mission hubs, just do a different one each couple of days.
Alec Grahm	Posted - 2008.04.10 17:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Diablo Ka the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so only in high sec ares withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think? It would also make perfect safe spots in any low sec or null sec system with an agent. A person running a mission would only be a target at gates/stations. This is not necessarily a good thing. The other part is that there is no way to find a wreck that has been left. Probes don't pick it up. Salvagers are finding ships or drones that are outside normal spaces to find these ships and then going to those spots, hoping to find some wrecks. As I understand it, dead space mission areas are already reduced in strength of signal to help obscure them, but someone with sufficient skills can still find a person. This goes back to the idea of 'if you are in space, you are not safe' and making such a change would have repercussions - not necessarily beneficial.
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.04.10 18:13:00 - [92] Originally by: Alec Grahm Originally by: Diablo Ka the most logical step i could see would to only allow the misstion runner into misstion area untill the misstion has been reported to the agent as compleat. thusly allowing misstion runners who want to salvage free to do so only in high sec ares withought harassment ifyou want to call it that. and salvagers to collect truely abandend wreks and allow the true sence of salvage to come into place. what do you guys think? It would also make perfect safe spots in any low sec or null sec system with an agent. A person running a mission would only be a target at gates/stations. This is not necessarily a good thing. The other part is that there is no way to find a wreck that has been left. Probes don't pick it up. Salvagers are finding ships or drones that are outside normal spaces to find these ships and then going to those spots, hoping to find some wrecks. He clearly said high sec. Did you not carefully read his post before replying? Originally by: welsh wizard stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air.
Alec Grahm	Posted - 2008.04.10 19:03:00 - [93] Edited by: Alec Grahm on 10/04/2008 19:03:16 Originally by: Kusha'an He clearly said high sec. Did you not carefully read his post before replying? I apologize for missing that, though that still creates a super safe spot within high sec and you cannot find wrecks with any scanning tools - you can only find ships and drones as clues there might be salvage there. It also offends my sense of consistency that other than concord response time and restrictions about what one can deploy that this is a suggestion at changing the 'laws of the universe' - that spaces for missions behave differently in different places.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.10 20:24:00 - [94] Perfect safes were and would be stupid anywhere. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.10 23:44:00 - [95] Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten.
Fumen	Posted - 2008.04.11 03:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten. Hate to break it to you, but missions are instanced. You're confusing it with 'private.' If it wasn't for instanced missions, you'd end up with the same situation you get at all the publicly known DED sites with a half dozen people competing to complete the same mission. ------------- But as to the OP, if he PvPs in 0.0, why not just stay out there and rat? The income from just a couple faction drops can make up for a day of mission running, and with a few exceptions rat faction loot is better than about anything you can get at the LP store. Personally, I see no issue here. Accept the game mechanic and adjust to it. There is no discontinuity in the logic of the loot. The wreck is separate from the loot container it's wrapped around. (Salvaging the wreck causes the loot container to be exposed.) From a design perspective, they could have gone with flagged wrecks, which would have opened up another whole area to expose players to aggression flags. As it is, how many people leave the wrecks and loot laying because it's potentially faster to just clear the mission, turn it in, and do the next one without even looting/salvaging? Everyone seems to forget the other recourse for dealing with ninja salvagers: contract your local mercs to gank em a few times.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.11 05:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Fumen Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Missions are not "instanced", for the same reason that the servers aren't "sharded". We all share one universe, including the a--holes, and you're just gonna have to adapt and deal with us. It's not a single-player game. If you can't figure out how to beat the salvage ninja, you deserve to be beaten. Hate to break it to you, but missions are instanced. You're confusing it with 'private.' If it wasn't for instanced missions, you'd end up with the same situation you get at all the publicly known DED sites with a half dozen people competing to complete the same mission. "Instancing" is by definition private, and completely sequestered from the rest of the game universe. Any EVE mission is accessible to a potentially unlimited amount of players beyond the mission runner and his party. Ergo, emphatically not an instance. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:10:00 - [98] While mission invading, salvage sucking and enjoying the smack-talk from the runners I come into a mission just beginning. Not wanting to wait around for him to finish popping all the rats I zip off and grab my rat-combating ship, return and get to popping the rats. This caused the rat wrecks to show up as white to me and yeller to him. Leaving me free not only to take the salvage from all the wrecks, but the lootz from the ones I've popped also. Another "fun" thing I discovered also is most ppl come back in a small ship to gather the lootz, drag it all in a can to one spot then leave to get a hauler-ship. If you time it just right, when he goes off for the hauler, or even the small loot-gathering ship, you haul-booty and get a hauler, return and cloak. When Mr. Mission runner finishes gathering and moves on thru next gate, or goes after his hauler, uncloak, scoop can contents, GTFU, or wait a bit, go thru the next gate, look for a can which the runner graciously filled for you, scoop and continue. NOTHING p.o's a mission runner off more than when he returns with his hauler and finds his cans missing. Just for the LOL factor I've sat at the last place aligned and ready to go waiting for his hauler to enter then I warp off just giving him a quick peek at a red-flashy hauler warping off with his stuff, just to make sure there was no misunderstanding ensuring he knows it was I who stole his lootz he worked so much gathering up in one spot for my convienance. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Kusha'an Gallente Equinox Industrial Co.	Posted - 2008.04.11 12:49:00 - [99] Glad I never have to learn that lesson through experience. You have now ensured that I will never use the hauler. Thank you for the tip. Originally by: welsh wizard stupid falcon pilots uncloak all the time coz they think they need to surface for air.
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 13:52:00 - [100] I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Or, The group of players that allow themselves to get all worked up about stuff. Furthermore, they routinely keep putting themselves in positions where stuff is going to happen that has the potential to tick them off, if not downright wreck their day (if they let it). I have little use for either group (ok, I shamefully admit gaining occassional mild amusement from observing them interacting).
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:29:00 - [101] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Revan Tiberius Who the hell said that salvaging someone elses wrecks in a mission is not stealing and can not get aggression is rubbish that has to be one of the worst game mechanics decisions ever made. i dont do alot of mission i do about 4 days to get a gtc and then go back to 0.0 to pvp, so to come up and on nmy first mission of the day some arse comes in and salvages my wrecks and and i couldnt even do anything who ever decided that is an idiot in my view andmaybe they should ask people what they want before they start making these dam anoying changes all the time. Revan Tiberius Punctuation. He did punctuate. There's two whole periods in there. On-topic: I don't ninja salvage, but I also don't see anything wrong with it. It's just another PvP aspect of Eve, really. I DO see something wrong with it not being flagged if stealing from a can or taking loot from a wreck is. I really think consistency one way or another would give the player-base clearly defined rules and thereby translate to other aspects of the game. Just my opinion. Also you whiny crybabies that are complaining about people playing the game in their own fashion (better than you, I might add)? Can I have your stuff?
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:32:00 - [102] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Your pity is just another bonus Originally by: Chomin H'ak On-topic: I don't ninja salvage, but I also don't see anything wrong with it. It's just another PvP aspect of Eve, really. I DO see something wrong with it not being flagged if stealing from a can or taking loot from a wreck is. I really think consistency one way or another would give the player-base clearly defined rules and thereby translate to other aspects of the game. Just my opinion. But there IS consistency. Taking loot gives flag, salvaging wrecks does not. Every time (barring bugs).
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Sigul Siento Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I don't think I will ever be able to definitively decide just which group of players is to be pitied more. The group of players that like to do things that tick other players off, though to be fair, ticking off another player may just be a bonus in some/many/most cases. Your pity is just another bonus Nuanced response: I didn't actually say I was the one doing the pitying.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.11 18:50:00 - [104] Originally by: Dotard Another "fun" thing I discovered ... There's a lot of fun stuff you can do. My favorite was when I arrived at a two-room mission just as the mission runners disappeared from directional scan (i.e. they were docking to turn in the mission). I quickly went through both acceleration gates and bookmarked a wreck in each room. I came back in my ninja salvage ship and started with the second room, cleaning out the battleship wrecks and leaving the others there. I warped then to the first room where the guy was casually salvaging the wrecks near his warp-in point with a destroyer. For about five minutes he talked smack on local, called me all kinds of names, as he was salvaging frigate wrecks and I was AB'ing out to the battleship wrecks at long range from him. When the last wreck disappeared and the whole audience on local was starting to get involved in the convo, and his obscenity reached a climax, I sent the message "Wait until you find out I cleared your second room first." My victory was complete.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:19:00 - [105] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean Nuanced response: I didn't actually say I was the one doing the pitying. Well somebodys potential pity is just an additional bonus. But that doesn't make for quite as snappy a sentence.
Xela Dioved	Posted - 2008.04.11 19:27:00 - [106] Originally by: xenoin Missions need risks!! Oh dear lvl 4's aint perfectly safe. I can't believe CCP would want to give something a disadvantage! You want complete fluffy, warm inside carebearness, play WOW. Or pirate mission runners, it's very low risk.
Commander OTG Logistic Exposium Industries	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:20:00 - [107] Look at it this way... You go out and buy yourself a candybar. You tear open the wrapper....eat the bar and toss the wrapper on the ground. Then a guy comes along and sees the wrapper and thinks...hey, I can use that wrapper inside my ant traps that I am manufacturing. Ants love the chocolate and this wrapper will make my ant trap work better. Now you over hear the guy and think to yourself..wait a minute, i could make few pennies off this guy if i sell him my wrapper. But its too late, you left it laying on the ground to blow away. I could see where it would be a crime if someone came along and took the candybar, depriving you of the pleasure of eating it, but to pick up your wrapper that you left on the ground should hardly result in a flag. Bottom line is....if you are in a mission and want the salvage, do something about it. There are ways you can adapt to this situation, salvage as you go...get buddy to salvage it..contract a salvager to get it for you and share the wealth...which ever you choose, move on with it...this subject is getting old Quote: Originally by: GM Faolchu It is within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission and steal the loot/salvage.
Hanneshannes	Posted - 2008.04.11 20:32:00 - [108] Happened to me twice, once the person doing it got killed and once, I didn't care, since I don't salvage most of the missions anyway. I'm one of those space polluters that just runs around leaving rubbish everywhere and collecting the bounties :( I do salvage and loot drone missions because they give no bounties, but their reprocessed loot is good for making ammo.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.11 21:31:00 - [109] Sigul; I know where you scan at, you know where I scan at. I see you in local often. Just as often I find myself trying to scan down the missions faster and more hectic-like competeing with you. Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.11 23:11:00 - [110] Originally by: Dotard Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. With three or four people, you can do it much more powerfully. With one guy in the prober and the other guys ready to salvage at a moments' notice, you can have the prober set up quest probes all over the system (takes a long time and is expensive to set up the first time, but they last an hour). Every cycle of the quest probes (7 minutes for me) you get pinpoint accurate hits on everything within their range. You'll find that you can't salvage all the missions you find within the 7-minute window until the next set of scan results. Of course you can't do it solo, the quests are short range probes and it's a pain to set them all up. This is what my friends and I were doing the day I invited you to join us, Dotard.
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:21:00 - [111] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/04/2008 01:21:31 Anyone know of any decent mission hubs in Amarr space?
Dotries	Posted - 2008.04.12 01:58:00 - [112] Within the compass of this post, I can do no more than indicate, as concisely as I can, relevant considerations that must be taken into account if we are to discuss Mr. Dotard's and Starbreakers morbid practices in a rational manner. First off, these two believe that thier stealings are good for the environment, human rights, and baby seals. The real damage that this belief causes actually has nothing to do with the belief itself, but with psychology, human nature, and the skillful psychological manipulation of that nature by these two and their perverted gofers. They always sound like their reading a prepared speech. Let's be sure that I've made myself absolutely clear: Sometimes I think that Mr. Dotard and Starbreaker are simply willing pawns of those fork-tongued lackwits who rot out the foundations of our religious, moral, and political values. I typically drop that willing-pawn notion, however, whenever I remember that these two insist that if they kick us in the teeth we'll then lick his toes and beg for another kick. Sorry, nimrods, but, with apologies to Gershwin, "it ain't necessarily so." I think these two maintain that the cure for evil is more evil. Perhaps it would be best for them to awaken from their delusional, narcoleptic fantasyland and observe that they sometimes have trouble convincing people that mediocrity is a worthwhile goal. When they have such trouble, they usually trot out a few vitriolic slumlords to constate authoritatively that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry about how the exceptions feel. Whether or not that trick of their's works, it's still the case that these two have been offering moonstruck twaddlers a lot of isk to make the pot of salvage stealing overboil and scald the whole EvE-verse. This is blood money, plain and simple. Anyone thinking of doing this should realize that these two use the very intellectual tools he criticizes, namely consequentialist arguments rather than arguments about truth or falsity. So, what exactly are these two trying to hide? I guess it just boils down to the question: Do these two believe, deep in the adytum of their own mind, that forcing me to fall into the traps set for me by them and their advocates is essential for the safety and welfare of the eve population? Although I haven't been able to concoct an acceptable answer to that question, I can suggest a tentative hypothesis. My hypothesis is that these activities are not witty satire, as they would have you believe. They're simply the larcenous doings of someone who has no idea or appreciation of what there mocking. Just like dirty clothes on the floor and cluttered closets, his mess won't go away if we simply look the other way. He might siphon off scarce salvaging capital intended for underdeveloped players one day. What are we to do then? Place blinders over our eyes and hope we don't see the horrible outcome? At this point, our task is to pronounce the truth and renounce the lies. Your support can help greatly with this task of rooting out them and their kind from our enjoyment of EvE, this crucial task, at which we, as a collective, must not fail. -------------- Stupid Monkey.
Evita Achura Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.12 03:00:00 - [113] Edited by: Evita Achura on 12/04/2008 03:01:37 Originally by: Revan Tiberius ...words...Revan Tiberius 1. English and Grammar lessons 2. Post in one of over 9000 other threads for this 3. Less QQ more pew pew.
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.12 13:02:00 - [114] Originally by: Dotard Sigul; I know where you scan at, you know where I scan at. I see you in local often. Just as often I find myself trying to scan down the missions faster and more hectic-like competeing with you. Wanna ban together to do this more quickly and efficiently? Two probes are better than one. I must confess I'm a poor team player, and yes I don't like sharing if I can help it I don't really find myself with more sites than I can handle, or at least not more GOOD sites than I can handle (after prioritising size and types of wreck). But then again, I use recon probes, simply because it's fast and can cover large areas. Usually i don't have time to cover the system in spooks before I find salvage, and if lucky I have a good hit within a couple minutes of leaving the station. But I see the wisodm in Joe's approach, several people and loads of quest probes sounds quite effective (a 7 minute scanning time does however need some improvement ). But it does seem like you would need quite a few people to make it worthwhile? @Dotries Oh my that's pompous Surely this can't be for real... Doesn't make much sense either. Has to be irony... or is it? Can't really tell. Quite sad if it's meant seriosuly. Funny though, either way.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.12 13:58:00 - [115] Edited by: Dotard on 12/04/2008 13:59:01 @sig.. Please note winky-face at bottom of Dotries post. It's a hint that no, it's not serious, it's a joke. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.04.12 14:46:00 - [116] The winky could be interpreted as scorn too. But yeah, quite obvious joke, it's just my expectations that are a bit warped by too many "Have ye no honour, scurrelous scoundrel!?", and similar reactions to my doings ...Dotrie, Dotard... busted!
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.12 19:44:00 - [117] That's DotrieS.. with an S. Busted? If I really wanted to hide behind an alt I would not have made such an obvious connection. Hey! I gotta have SOMEBODY to back up my opinions, even if it is my other personality. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:10:00 - [118] Originally by: Sigul Siento But I see the wisodm in Joe's approach, several people and loads of quest probes sounds quite effective (a 7 minute scanning time does however need some improvement ). But it does seem like you would need quite a few people to make it worthwhile? It all depends on how many mission runners and what types are available. Using 8 or 10 quest probes in a Minmatar L4 hub, I was pinpointing at least 3 or 4 good missions with each scan (at least 1-2 new ones) I had a team of 4, admittedly new to the trade, and they couldn't salvage them fast enough to be done in 7 minutes. As you know, it's a feast or famine business, you may do it for a while with few hits, or you may have too many to make it worth while. It's a fun way to share the fun with your friends who don't have any astrometrics skills trained.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.12 22:12:00 - [119] Originally by: Dotries They always sound like their reading a prepared speech. ... Quote: Sometimes I think that Mr. Dotard and Starbreaker are simply willing pawns of those fork-tongued lackwits who rot out the foundations of our religious, moral, and political values. Well yes, I suppose you could say that most of our salvaging really does ultimately go toward making rigs for CNRs. <shudder>
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.13 01:01:00 - [120] It's a fun way to share the fun with your friends... Friends? TBH I've found there isn't really a whole lot of ISKies to be made considering the time put into it. But you can't beat the LOL factor. The smack you get in local can be quite hilarious. I think that is really the reason I do it, for the negative social interactions. --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
Rat XIII Deadspace Salvage Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.13 01:09:00 - [121] Originally by: Dotard The smack you get in local can be quite hilarious. I think that is really the reason I do it, for the negative social interactions. I've had positive social interactions since I started salvaging. I'd say I've made far more friends than I ever did just mission running and not talking to anyone. I've also made far more enemies. There are lots of enemies :(
Stazzmo Gallente The Grind	Posted - 2008.04.13 13:55:00 - [122] Originally by: Dotries Within the compass of this post, I can do no more than indicate, as concisely as I can... blah blah blah I hope you're kidding. In fact, i'll assume so and get the joke! Nice one! I dream of electric sheep.
Aeryl Firebrand	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:39:00 - [123] Originally by: Commander OTG Look at it this way... You go out and buy yourself a candybar. You tear open the wrapper....eat the bar and toss the wrapper on the ground. Then a guy comes along and sees the wrapper and thinks...hey, I can use that wrapper inside my ant traps that I am manufacturing. Ants love the chocolate and this wrapper will make my ant trap work better. Now you over hear the guy and think to yourself..wait a minute, i could make few pennies off this guy if i sell him my wrapper. But its too late, you left it laying on the ground to blow away. I could see where it would be a crime if someone came along and took the candybar, depriving you of the pleasure of eating it, but to pick up your wrapper that you left on the ground should hardly result in a flag. Bottom line is....if you are in a mission and want the salvage, do something about it. There are ways you can adapt to this situation, salvage as you go...get buddy to salvage it..contract a salvager to get it for you and share the wealth...which ever you choose, move on with it...this subject is getting old It's not an indication of which side I fall on in this argument, but that analogy is dumb in almost every facet.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.04.13 17:46:00 - [124] Originally by: Rat XIII Originally by: Dotard The smack you get in local can be quite hilarious. I think that is really the reason I do it, for the negative social interactions. I've had positive social interactions since I started salvaging. I'd say I've made far more friends than I ever did just mission running and not talking to anyone. I've also made far more enemies. There are lots of enemies :( And this, boys and girls, is much of what is so beautiful about the salvage system. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Spaceways	Posted - 2008.04.13 22:13:00 - [125] Originally by: Rat XIII Originally by: Dotard The smack you get in local can be quite hilarious. I think that is really the reason I do it, for the negative social interactions. I've had positive social interactions since I started salvaging. I'd say I've made far more friends than I ever did just mission running and not talking to anyone. I've also made far more enemies. There are lots of enemies :( I like to have both. The victims tend to smack up a storm, but everybody else on local gets a good laugh, and the regulars in my favorite system are getting to know me by reputation. So far, this has not impacted on my earnings. I don't think I earn quite as much per hour as a level 4 mission *****, but then think of how many months of skill training I'm saving by not having to train battleship-level weapons and support skills! It's still a good 5-10 million per hour.

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