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Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:30:00 - [61] when gang vs gang fight, ship setups become less important, player skills and tactics become more important. It's very hard to judge performance of gang vs gang fight based on ship setups only. Even with both gangs are equally skilled, there's considerable random factor in chosen tactic for specific situations, too many decisions that cannot be predicted.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:37:00 - [62] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h All fine ships although a fast Abso? It's base speed is 150 m/s (same as a Typhoon battleship I might add) and is around 30% more massive. It's done. It's the weapon system that makes it a good "nano-ship" candidate. It's not all about pure speed when it comes to this type of ships. It's like how the Ishtar is slower, heavier and has less low slots than the Deimos, yet the Ishtar is the one that people tend to speed fit because of its weapon system. Quote: Actually none of them approach a Vaga in speed, not one can catch it and I seriously doubt one could get tracking on a Vaga to shoot it not to mention issues with MWD and Amarr ships and lasers and cap. Ok, I keep seeing this about the tracking, so let's illustrate how wrong you are with an example. I'm using stats from EFT and feeding them into the tracking guide on this site. Assume a Harbinger with tech 2 medium beam lasers (and a pilot with average skills) using Standard crystals. No tracking mods or target painters or whatever. It's being orbited by a 6 km/s Vagabond at 20 km range. The Harbinger will hit with almost 50% accuracy. Get a few tracking mods and a target painter on there, and we're talking 70-80% accuracy. Now, imagine a Zealot which has enough range with Pulses (that have much better tracking and higher damage than beams) and can be fitted for speed so it can keep its tranversal down.... Quote: A Curse is dangerous enough to a Vaga to make the Vaga pilot stay away but a Curse would never kill a Vaga unless the Vaga pilot screws-up badly. The reverse is also true though.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:51:00 - [63] Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Eowaen It's the shield extenders.. you can easily fit 2 large t2 extenders to vaga which leads to insane hp buffer. Just raise pg needs like armor plates. 1600mm plate 500 pg, large shield extender II 165 without skills.. Hahaha. Let's not nerf the vaga, let's nerf every shield tank in the entire game instead! Nevermind that Caldari and Minmatar ships (the most prominent shield tankers) have the lowest and second lowest available powergrid respectively. Minmatar ships have plenty more PG than they actually need, though, whereas Caldari struggle desperately in that area (despite both being shield tankers) Ishtar - 700 PG Vagabond - 885 PG Cerberus - 635 PG Deimos - 990 PG Muninn - 1160 PG Eagle - 875 PG Astarte - 1450 PG Sleip - 1460 PG Nighthawk - 710 PG the fact that a Vaga has natural EM / Therm resists and can easily get away fitting 2 lg shield extenders makes it very hard to kill, imo, compared to the Ishtar and Curse which drop like a brick the second you put any damage on them. ...
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:39:00 - [64] Edited by: Franga on 02/04/2008 23:42:51 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Corstaad Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him . And what's to keep the plot from simply disengaging? Jedi Mind-tricksies. I still support the idea that nano-faggotry needs a looking at. I don't often advocate for a nerfing, but when you have to fight something with the exact same something (fight fire with fire) in a game that says there are boundless options for pew-pew, I call 'naughty'. This is very similar to the time of ECM superiority. Friggin' throns had two multi-specs as standard. Even the esteemed Ifni was whinging about it. I ask you - Is this right? Is it good? Is it fluffy? If you answered no to any of these questions - I am shocked and appalled and demand a nerf or boost of some description. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Dianeces	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:47:00 - [65] I was going to put in a pre-emptive "This thread is **ty.", but it's too late for that. Thread is really **ty and going downhill fast. I, for one, look forward to seeing the same arguments from the other thread repeated in this one. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
hylleX	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:51:00 - [66] Its bothers me alot that people wont even try to think before hitting the forums and crying neeerf! Hmm, since when does a nanogang pwn anything? it doesnt take vagabonds to kill other vagabonds. Ever heard of a ship called Curse, or maybe a lacheisis? And then we another one called falcon with a bigger brother called rook. There you go, the nanoships wont dare to approach you if you're in a curse, and can target you if you have a falcon/rook/lacheisis/arazu.. People is just to sad panda because their drakes and battleships cant kill nanosquads.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.04.02 23:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Gamesguy A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos. No, they can drive off a larger nano-gang that doesn't have any ECM or ewar of any type. They can't kill it. To do that they need nano-ships. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Gamesguy D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Gamesguy A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos. No, they can drive off a larger nano-gang that doesn't have any ECM or ewar of any type. They can't kill it. To do that they need nano-ships. Yes and a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship according to you. Do me a favor and never reply to me again, because I'm done arguing with you.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:07:00 - [69] Originally by: hylleX Its bothers me alot that people wont even try to think before hitting the forums and crying neeerf! Hmm, since when does a nanogang pwn anything? it doesnt take vagabonds to kill other vagabonds. Ever heard of a ship called Curse, or maybe a lacheisis? And then we another one called falcon with a bigger brother called rook. There you go, the nanoships wont dare to approach you if you're in a curse, and can target you if you have a falcon/rook/lacheisis/arazu.. People is just to sad panda because their drakes and battleships cant kill nanosquads. Fine. But how do you KILL a Vagabond? Almost every other ship in the game is catchable (except maybe a CovOps but that is true of the whole class). CCP has said in the past that they want pilots to commit to battles. Essentially put their money on the table and risk it. They mentioned this when toying with carriers. While you can run off a Vagabond it is damn difficult to actually catch it and kill it without another Vagabond. All your examples above can prevent a Vagabond from engaging effectively (EW can do that to most anyone). None of it will kill a Vaga though whereas most other ships in EVE faced with that have a good chance at dying. I think part of the issue is that Vagas seem darn near invulnerable as a practical matter unless you have a Vaga or maybe a Huginn with you. If they cannot kill you they can get away almost with impunity. I am not suggesting they should roll over and die to everything but they should have an Achille's Heel that every race can bring to bear against it. Ordinarily this is the way of EVE...some things you will own, other things will own you. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:11:00 - [70] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/04/2008 00:13:26 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/04/2008 00:12:39 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/04/2008 00:12:08 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Vaga is still invulnerable. Even when his cap is gone he can still ride out the current cycle of his MWD and then coast which should easily get him well beyond any trouble and then he can warp away. If you did that to a (say) Sac or Eagle they'd be dead in short order. Unlike the nano-Sacriledge and nano-Ishtar, Vagabonds both cannot perma-MWD, cannot do DPS while MWD-ing and aren't cap injected as a rule. So it's obviously the Amarr/Gallente nanoships with tracking-independent weapon systems which need a nerf according to your logic because they're way way less vunerable. If anything, Vagabonds are the easiest of nanos to kill once they actually engage you, and quite definitely the easiest ones to drive off. However, coming from someone who thinks Absolutions cannot track Vagabonds, well, Get a clue before you post. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:13:00 - [71] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Gamesguy A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos. No, they can drive off a larger nano-gang that doesn't have any ECM or ewar of any type. They can't kill it. To do that they need nano-ships. Yes and a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship according to you. Do me a favor and never reply to me again, because I'm done arguing with you. What? Taking your ball and going home when someone beats you? Are you 8? No, a rapier is a nanoship. In the same way a vagabond is a nanoship. That doesn't make every rapier a nanoship, i just means a rapier is. Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons! its like your stupid insistence that nano-gangs cant have ewar. Except even more stupid because at least ewar can be used across many different training courses. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Dianeces The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:20:00 - [72] Goum, can you do me a favor? I heard you once used maths to prove that Tempests are better than Megathrons, something to do with Hail. Mind showing that to us again?
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:22:00 - [73] Originally by: Goumindong Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons! Sticking interdiction maneuvers and the mindlink in your head on your Harbringer would greatly help, but I assume you're just too lazy to train for it. Originally by: Goumindong But no one says they are invulnerable, they say that properly piloted they are invulnerable to ships that are not-nano ships. I will assume properly piloted means they're clairvoyant and just know there won't be any uncloaking suprises, know the entire gang composition and fittings in advance? Well, yeah, taking all those into account, yes. At any rate: 1) depending on fit, the Huggin/Rapier can but don't have to be nanoships. If a nanoship is everything that is more agile then a BC/BS then OK, you've just redefined the term to suit your purposes. 2) Interceptors. Or now you shouldn't need tacklers because they go fast? 3) You should NOT be whining about how you need to train Minmatar Cruiser V or whatever - if someone brings a lot of ewar, best way to counter it is to have a number of people with Caldari Cruiser V. It's how it works. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:30:00 - [74] Originally by: Rells I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed. The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes. To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything. Thanks for your time. Yet again Rells fails to impress. I want my minute and thirty seconds back thanks. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Chelone	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Rells The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships...You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Oh! So it only takes outnumbering the enemy by a factor of 9:1! Yep, no problem here.
Crackzilla	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:44:00 - [76] Originally by: Gamesguy Yes and a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship according to you. You as well as everyone in here knows that regardless of how poorly a rapier is setup, its still a nano. There is only 1 setup with maybe a minor variation or two for a "proper" setup. Check any killboard if you've forgotten. Its a shame that a game designed for versatile setups is going this way. Perhaps CCP can help by selling nanos preconfigured and include joystick support for those that want to play Wing Commander. A vaga with an armor tank is a joke setup, a rapier without a mwd is a joke setup. It takes nanos to kill nanos. Originally by: Goumindong Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons! truth.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:47:00 - [77] Originally by: Derrys The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like: Vagabond Vagabond Ishtar Rapier Ishtar Rapier Taranis Falcon Vagabond Rapier and it gets old really fast. That's a group of 10 ships tailored to work well with eachother. It's a very effective tactic that is one of the few setups that can deal with some the megablobs of 0.0. Mostly the people who fly this type of gang want to fight small gang fights, not face 40 BS and 40 mixed battlecruisers and support with 10BS of their own. This is the cause and effect of what happens when you have large amounts of people clustering up in central areas of 0.0. And they're one of the few methods of dealing with the boredom of huge fleet lagfests. Two falcons and a nano group can still take on a group of 15-20 mixed BS/BC which is what many of the unimaginative 0.0-alliances keep on bringing. And they often succeed because of how well thought through this type of setup is. So it's not the lack of a counter that is the problem, it's the fact that many of these 0.0 alliances aren't well-knit together. They are just a bunch of different people who warp "whatever" to one gate and hope it will work out. And then come cry to the forums when much better organized people come in and kill them. Don't blame game mechanics again. Blame yourselves, and your lack of ability to adapt as a team. Black Hand.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:49:00 - [78] Originally by: *****zilla A vaga with an armor tank is a joke setup, a rapier without a mwd is a joke setup. It takes nanos to kill nanos. So suddenly every ship with a MWD is a nanoship? Is a plated rupture a nanoship? it gets to disengage versus BC/BS, it's got a MWD, it has to be a nanoship. How about a plate phoon with MWD? Also a nano-ship? If said Rapier isn't speedfitted (overdrives, polycarbons), it's NOT a nanoship. MWD is preety much standard fitting. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.04.03 00:56:00 - [79] Originally by: Cpt Branko Sticking interdiction maneuvers and the mindlink in your head on your Harbringer would greatly help, but I assume you're just too lazy to train for it. No, i already have, its just not as effective as you think. Nor is it as reasonable. http://eve-files.com/dl/154147 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Vote Goumindong for CSM[/url]
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.03 01:18:00 - [80] Edited by: Gamesguy on 03/04/2008 01:17:51 Originally by: Goumindong What? Taking your ball and going home when someone beats you? Are you 8? I've already stated my reasons in that 40 page nano thread. I can't help it if you missed it. Quote: No, a rapier is a nanoship. In the same way a vagabond is a nanoship. That doesn't make every rapier a nanoship, i just means a rapier is. Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons! This is why arguing with you is pointless. All you do is reiterate your points and over again, you never debate, you're like a drone, you just say the same thing over and over again in hopes people will get tired of typing and then declare victory. You are not the creator of this game, you're not a dev, please find me a GM that declared the rapier a nanoship no matter what fit you put on it. The rapier is a force recon ship, not a nanoship, it can be fitted as a nanoship, but that doesn't make it a nanoship by default. Quote: its like your stupid insistence that nano-gangs cant have ewar. Except even more stupid because at least ewar can be used across many different training courses. Where did I insist nanogangs can have no ewar? What you've never heard of nano-curses? Or nanoed arazus and rapiers? Most recon cruisers can be nanoed reasonably well. The falcon is not a nanoship, because in order to nano it well, it needs its low slots, which takes away from its Ewar capabilities, it cannot do both ewar and nano at the same time. A mwd does not make it a nanoship. But I'm sure you will reply with the same crap you said in the other thread 50 times, and this is why debating with you is utterly pointless, its like debating with a tape recorder.
Gamesguy	Posted - 2008.04.03 01:22:00 - [81] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Cpt Branko Sticking interdiction maneuvers and the mindlink in your head on your Harbringer would greatly help, but I assume you're just too lazy to train for it. No, i already have, its just not as effective as you think. Nor is it as reasonable. Funny, in every lossmail of your harbinger it shows a rapid deployment link fitted, not interdiction manuvers. Its only unreasonable because it would take effort, and we all know you're supposed to be able to just blob the enemy with t1 cruisers and bcs till they die right?
Kolwrath Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.04.03 01:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Rells You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. All you need is 8 vs 1 to kill a nano? Sounds balanced to me. Or of course there is the other solution touted in all of these pro nano threads: just train up Minimitar Cruiser V and Recon IV! One ship to catch them all! Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
burek	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:03:00 - [83] In before a really long winded, void of clue posts that make me want to jump of my balcony, by Goumindong. Nanos are hardly as much of a problem as a handful of lazy forum loudmouths make it out to be. Try playing the game instead of yapping on about it on a million of forums all the time.
Herring Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:14:00 - [84] I hate the idea of a nerf. Even though I don't fly nanos, don't fly vagabonds, the people that do spend a ***load of money to make them go zoom. Tbh just add a bonus to the missile velocity and/or explosion velocity of stealth bombers if you want a more obvious counter. ALL stealth bombers. Without nerfing the other bonuses they currently have. Makes them a little less sucky, more of a danger to nanoships of all kinds (including interceptors), without increasing their overall dps on 'normal' ships. Never ask for a nerf. Boost patch...nerfs: 1) faction passive shield resistance amplifiers, 2) exploration radar sites, 3) faction co-processors*
Crackzilla The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:20:00 - [85] Originally by: Kolwrath just train up Minimitar Cruiser V and Recon IV! One ship to catch them all! Recon 5 is highly highly recommended. And faction webbers. And overheating. See, once a nano sees a few huginns/rapiers, they'll be racing to get out of your web range. You'll need the range to hold the web. Originally by: burek Nanos are hardly as much of a problem as a handful of lazy forum loudmouths make it out to be. Try playing the game instead of yapping on about it on a million of forums all the time. We do play. Either we gank a ratter/miner, or we encounter another nano gang. Both get old. Many miss slugfests, tactics, or fair fun fights. Now its about who plays more, has more isk, and the "right" mods. If this wasn't such an issue, would both sides be so vocal? This obviously means something to someone.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:39:00 - [86] I like how people talk about counters and nano-ships need a counter or whatever. Do we have a counter for everything in EVE? HELL NO Where's my Capital ship counter, where's my cloaking ship counter, where's my "this guy is sniping me at 240km counter him now!" button. The game is not based around counters, it is based on roles. Maybe you should read the description of the Vagabond. Nanos ships use their speed and WEAK combat abilities to GANK people. They usually have to blob to kill enemies that are fit for PvE. Guess what, if you are killed by a nano-gang, that means it was probably 7 or more vs 1 and guess what, if they were in caracals, you'd STILL BE DEAD. You probably died because you did something dumb. I caught a drake and an astarte jumping into my vaga on two separate occasions and they happily went back to the gate and jumped back through. They both had MWD making them unbumpable so wtf how did my overpowered nano-ship of doom fail to kill? Such ******** posts in this thread. Maybe slightly nerf polycarbons and tweak stacking, but fast ships should be viable. Actually I'd nerf the nano-ishtar but thats just because I have jealousy because that thing is the ultimate pwn mobile, nano'ed or not.
Crackzilla	Posted - 2008.04.03 02:49:00 - [87] Edited by: ***zilla on 03/04/2008 02:50:28 Originally by: Vaal Erit Where's my Capital ship counter, where's my cloaking ship counter, where's my "this guy is sniping me at 240km counter him now!" button. 1) Battleships & neuts & ecm (for nanos these are annoyances, for caps these are death) 2) Everyone including ccp agrees with cloaks/afk 3) Ignore it, then warp out. Most on either side don't want a complete nerf bat. Most want some tweaks and to make something other than huginns/rapiers/lag to be feared by nanos.
Mr QUE Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:44:00 - [88] Originally by: Rells I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed. The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes. To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything. Thanks for your time. and you don't see a problem with it taking 8 ships to take out a nano. hummmmmm somthing wrong with you all's thinking
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:45:00 - [89] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Corwain By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat. It implies both. Stop being daft. You're the one being daft. I just linked you to the official definition of raid, and it's multiple variations on suprise, and attack. Nowhere on the page does it say anything about running away whenever you bloody feel like. Find me a counter definition and/or stop saying anything like "implies". I think you being Minmatar implies your biased, does that make it true? I dunno. I have no evidence to support such a statement, the same as you have no evidence that a raid is a retreat. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
oilio State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.03 03:47:00 - [90] Are there such things as "faction crows" ?

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