Originally by: Ephemeron

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This is going to turn into another 10+ page threadnought as soon as Goumindong finds out about it

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Originally by: Kurtis Lowe

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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This is going to turn into another 10+ page threadnought as soon as Goumindong finds out about it

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Doubtful. FACT is hard to argue against. eg: CCP needs to do NOTHING to fix this issue.

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Quote:

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Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Yet you all keep arguing against facts...

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Quote:

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You can kill a cruiser with a fast frigate and 8 destroyers fairly easily

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Tarminic

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So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)?

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him .

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Nanoships die, and die in preety big numbers when you look at stats.

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Quote:

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Which means, you are the one arguing against facts when you whine about them. Boo-fricking-hoo.

Claiming that you're supported by 'facts' is just rubbish. You have a gripe with your inability to deal with the playstyle, which is valid, as a subjective opinion.

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Originally by: IamAcontractALT

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Originally by: Tarminic

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So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)?

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Aparently, you need 9 pilots to counter 1 nanopilot???

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him .

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Originally by: Tarminic

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So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)?

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Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him .

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You forgot to assume that the pilot has a brainstem. Its like saying a megathron can kill a vagabond because the vagabond can run into web range and turn its mwd off.

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Originally by: Derrys

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Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:05:13

Originally by: Corstaad

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Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it.

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The fact that there's only a couple viable types of roving gang is strong evidence of the problem I'm talking about.

If the only way to have fun is to fly a Vagabond, Ishtar, or Rapier, then don't you agree there's something wrong with the rest of the ships?

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.

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Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed.

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Originally by: Corstaad

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On the same token should we cry nerf over spider tanks?

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.

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Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed.

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What?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Excuses

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Originally by: Guomindong

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You are the ones claiming things as facts that aren't supported by either evidence or argument.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They die, which is a fact. Everything else is subjective.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They die, which is a fact. Everything else is subjective.

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Originally by: Corstaad

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You have to fit and play for how you think your going to fight.

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.

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Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed.

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What?

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A raiding gang in eve needs to move across systems quickly, hence a "roaming gang". They don't need to reach top speeds of 5000+m/s to do this, they just need to align quickly. Thus a gang of non-nanoed HACs would still meet the concept of "small raiding forces" that you claim is only validated by nanogangs.

Need more explanation of a simple concept, or are you just feigning ignorance?

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Originally by: Derrys

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Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:53:53

Originally by: Corstaad

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You have to fit and play for how you think your going to fight.

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Sure, and my problem is that "how you think you're going to fight" these days is always "I bet I'm going to run across a bunch of Vagabonds, Ishtars, and/or Rapiers."

There should be more than one or two ways to play the game. Right now, it's becoming more and more "nanos," "anti-nanos," and "other" (which will be either dispatched or ignored by the nanos.)

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They die, which is a fact. Everything else is subjective.

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That's not an intellectually honest argument.

Yes, at least one nanoship has died at some point - to suggest anything else is illogical. But simply responding with "they die, is trufax" does not offer a complete picture regarding whether they are balanced or not.

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered.

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Raid means "a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force."

Thus the ability to ambush an enemy. This says nothing about being survivable and being able to run away. By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat.

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Originally by: Alz Shado

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The problem isn't necessarily that Nanos are overpowered, but that their counters are underpowered.

Scripted T1 webs that reach out to 25km and kill momentum as fast as cloaking.

Problem solved.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Cpt Branko

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...

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered.

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Raid means "a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force."

Thus the ability to ambush an enemy. This says nothing about being survivable and being able to run away. By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat.

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It implies both. Stop being daft.

Thinking that roaming gangs in battleships should be viable is like wanting to take an Abrams tank on a commando raid.

In large fleets, slow bulky battleships and capitals reign supreme. What's wrong with ships like heavy assault ships, recons, interdictors and interceptors taking the front seat when it comes to small scale roaming gang type combat? Why would you want it to be any other way?

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Originally by: Xaen

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Not for soloing, but you don't need a recon. It will effectively shut down 2-3 nano cruisers at once. Probably eight frigates.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Corwain

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered.

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Raid means "a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force."

Thus the ability to ambush an enemy. This says nothing about being survivable and being able to run away. By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat.

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It implies both. Stop being daft.

Thinking that roaming gangs in battleships should be viable is like wanting to take an Abrams tank on a commando raid.

In large fleets, slow bulky battleships and capitals reign supreme. What's wrong with ships like heavy assault ships, recons, interdictors and interceptors taking the front seat when it comes to small scale roaming gang type combat? Why would you want it to be any other way?

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In large fleets, battleships form the main fleet, flanked by all sorts of specialized support. All sorts of recons, frigates, cruisers, and hacs perform a role with interdictors and hactors forming the basis of your support.

Only when it becomes "olol caps online" are there problems with ships being obsoleted and that is more due to the crippling lag that large numbers of carriers produce.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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But it also makes perfect sense that small scale combat be done by lighter ships who can use speed or cloaking to dodge dangers and survive where a heavier force would be pinned down and destroyed in short order.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Is there some reason all my training for Amarr pretty much goes right out the window?

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Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Is there some reason all my training for Amarr pretty much goes right out the window?

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Curse? Sacriledge? Zealot? Absolution?

All can be fitted for speed. The first two are among the ships that people whine about the most when it comes to fast ships.

The Caldari are the only ones that are really lacking when it comes to fast heavy assault or command ships. I think the Cerberus is pretty much it, and it's not as good as the Sacriledge.

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Originally by: Eowaen

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It's the shield extenders.. you can easily fit 2 large t2 extenders to vaga which leads to insane hp buffer. Just raise pg needs like armor plates. 1600mm plate 500 pg, large shield extender II 165 without skills..

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Originally by: Tarron Sarek

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Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 02/04/2008 21:56:08

Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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This alone is reason for debate.
Is a 1:9 relation ok?
What do you do against a nano gang? 5:45 ?


edit: I'm not against nano ships, but I'm against badly balanced content. Please fix polycarbon rigs by bringing them in line with other speed rigs/modules.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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All fine ships although a fast Abso? It's base speed is 150 m/s (same as a Typhoon battleship I might add) and is around 30% more massive.

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Actually none of them approach a Vaga in speed, not one can catch it and I seriously doubt one could get tracking on a Vaga to shoot it not to mention issues with MWD and Amarr ships and lasers and cap.

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A Curse is dangerous enough to a Vaga to make the Vaga pilot stay away but a Curse would never kill a Vaga unless the Vaga pilot screws-up badly.

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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Originally by: Eowaen

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It's the shield extenders.. you can easily fit 2 large t2 extenders to vaga which leads to insane hp buffer. Just raise pg needs like armor plates. 1600mm plate 500 pg, large shield extender II 165 without skills..

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Hahaha.

Let's not nerf the vaga, let's nerf every shield tank in the entire game instead! Nevermind that Caldari and Minmatar ships (the most prominent shield tankers) have the lowest and second lowest available powergrid respectively.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him .

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And what's to keep the plot from simply disengaging?

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Originally by: Rachel Vend

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... with 100% reliability in most cases ...

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos.

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No, they can drive off a larger nano-gang that doesn't have any ECM or ewar of any type.

They can't kill it. To do that they need nano-ships.

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Originally by: hylleX

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Its bothers me alot that people wont even try to think before hitting the forums and crying neeerf!

Hmm, since when does a nanogang pwn anything? it doesnt take vagabonds to kill other vagabonds. Ever heard of a ship called Curse, or maybe a lacheisis? And then we another one called falcon with a bigger brother called rook. There you go, the nanoships wont dare to approach you if you're in a curse, and can target you if you have a falcon/rook/lacheisis/arazu..

People is just to sad panda because their drakes and battleships cant kill nanosquads.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Vaga is still invulnerable. Even when his cap is gone he can still ride out the current cycle of his MWD and then coast which should easily get him well beyond any trouble and then he can warp away.

If you did that to a (say) Sac or Eagle they'd be dead in short order.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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A smaller mixed gang with a good setup can beat a larger nano-gang, unless the nano-gang has a lot of falcons, which is a problem with the falcon, not a problem with nanos.

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No, they can drive off a larger nano-gang that doesn't have any ECM or ewar of any type.

They can't kill it. To do that they need nano-ships.

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Yes and a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship according to you.

Do me a favor and never reply to me again, because I'm done arguing with you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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But no one says they are invulnerable, they say that properly piloted they are invulnerable to ships that are not-nano ships.

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Originally by: Rells

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I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed.

The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes.

To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything.

Thanks for your time.

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Originally by: Rells

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The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships...You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Yes and a plated rapier with no mwd is a nanoship according to you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons!

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Originally by: Derrys

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The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like:

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

and it gets old really fast.

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Originally by: *****zilla

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A vaga with an armor tank is a joke setup, a rapier without a mwd is a joke setup. It takes nanos to kill nanos.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Sticking interdiction maneuvers and the mindlink in your head on your Harbringer would greatly help, but I assume you're just too lazy to train for it.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Goumindong

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What? Taking your ball and going home when someone beats you? Are you 8?

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No, a rapier is a nanoship. In the same way a vagabond is a nanoship. That doesn't make every rapier a nanoship, i just means a rapier is.

Guys, its totally easy to counter nano-ships everyone just has to train minmatar cruiser five and recons!

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Quote:

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its like your stupid insistence that nano-gangs cant have ewar. Except even more stupid because at least ewar can be used across many different training courses.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Sticking interdiction maneuvers and the mindlink in your head on your Harbringer would greatly help, but I assume you're just too lazy to train for it.

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No, i already have, its just not as effective as you think. Nor is it as reasonable.

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Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

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Originally by: Kolwrath

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just train up Minimitar Cruiser V and Recon IV! One ship to catch them all!

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Originally by: burek

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Nanos are hardly as much of a problem as a handful of lazy forum loudmouths make it out to be. Try playing the game instead of yapping on about it on a million of forums all the time.

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Where's my Capital ship counter, where's my cloaking ship counter, where's my "this guy is sniping me at 240km counter him now!" button.

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Originally by: Rells

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I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed.

The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes.

To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything.

Thanks for your time.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Corwain

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By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat.

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It implies both. Stop being daft.

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Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

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Originally by: Derrys

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The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like:

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

and it gets old really fast.

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That's a group of 10 ships tailored to work well with eachother. It's a very effective tactic that is one of the few setups that can deal with some the megablobs of 0.0. Mostly the people who fly this type of gang want to fight small gang fights, not face 40 BS and 40 mixed battlecruisers and support with 10BS of their own.

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Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

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Originally by: Dez Affinity

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You can't roam in Battleships anymore because you just get Doomsdayed/Hotdropped or blobbed, if you are bringing out BS for 20+ jumps you need a lot of them, or at least a lot of support.

Nanos are not undefeatable, I also don't understand the arguement about it taking 8 Destroyers and a Dictor to pop a faction Vaga, so what if it takes 9 ships to pop a Vaga, it will take more than 8 Destroyers to break the tank of a well tanked BS anyway, especially if the BS starts dropping them. Before anyone says it, yes a ship can tank 1400 dps, of a full gank fitted set of Destroyers, and that DPS won't last long.

It's easy to kill nanos if you have the pilots, bring a couple of rapiers with you and small nano gangs will thing twice about engaging you, larger ones will at least lose 1 or 2 ships.

Neuts, they really mess up a nanos cap and hit at 25km, which is more than the max t2 scram range, so they either have to go out of scram range to stop dying or die.

Inty spam, a crap load of inties really do quite well, combine this with some missile ships and you will see some nanos going pop pretty quick. Sure you will lose a couple inties, but they are cheap ships and easy to train for.

Now instead of whining, do something about it, there are plenty of ways to kill nanos just as there are plenty of ways to kill BS.

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Originally by: Mr QUE

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I think your wrong it only takes 1 destroyer to take down a BS maybe 2, the tank goes when cap is gone BS's can't hit small ships sure it would take a while but it will still lose to a frig
or 2

Kill th speed it is stupied, the inti should be the only ships going over 1K/ms :)

make fights fights not who can run away the fastest

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Originally by: Dez Affinity

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If it's only Inties going over 1km/s then how do you kill Inties? Other Inties? Rapiers? Heavy Neuts? Oh wait all these things apply to NanoHacs too!

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Originally by: *****zilla

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1) Ceptors aren't using drones for a significant amount of dps

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Originally by: *****zilla

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2) Ceptors have no tank (versus a hac with 8k shields and nice resists)

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Originally by: *****zilla

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3) Ceptors aren't fitting battleship sized shield extenders for a buffer tank

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Originally by: *****zilla

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4) Ceptors pop very very quickly after a nice hit, unlike a nano hac which can tank a few wrecking hits and stay in shield

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Originally by: *****zilla

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5) You're suggesting that we need nano hacs because they're the only way to counter the evil evil ceptor threat

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Originally by: *****zilla

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6) No one is complaining that ceptors go too fast.

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Wahh Nano ships are overpowered
-No you can beat them with a few ships or different tactics
Wtf I need more than one ship/tactic to kill a nanoship! Nerf it!!!

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Wahh Capital ships are overpowered
-No you can beat them with multiple BS and lots of ships
Wtf I need more than one ship/tactic to kill a capital ship! Nerf it!!!

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Wahh Tanked Megathron is overpowered
-No you can beat is with multiple BS or a few BS + ewar + tackler
Wtf I need more than one ship/tactic to kill a Megathron! Nerf it!!!

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Wahh Sniper Rokh is overpowered
-No you can beat it but you needa cov ops friend + dictor, etc.
Wtf I need more than one ship/tactic to kill a sniper BS! Nerf it!!!

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Wahh ECM is overpowered
-NO you can beat it, get gang mates or pray that your ECCM gets lucky
Wtf I need more than one ship/tactic to kill an ECM ship! Nerf it!!!

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Originally by: Vaal Erit

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Adapt. Die.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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More to the point there are many ships/gang setups in EVE to deal with a spider tank. Seems the counter to Vagabonds is more Vagabonds. That or 9+ ships and hope the Vaga pilot loses connection or passes out or has is girl friend walk into the room naked with her cute girlfriend who is also naked.

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Originally by: Grytok

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...the bigger entities started blobbing...

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Originally by: *****zilla

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Originally by: Grytok

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...the bigger entities started blobbing...

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The bigger entities started to blob when the nanos started to become common.

*snip*

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Originally by: *****zilla

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Originally by: Grytok

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...the bigger entities started blobbing...

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The bigger entities started to blob when the nanos started to become common. Before that the fc could grab a few players, roughly judge dps/tactics, and warp in. Solo pvp was common and it didn't take much to participate in defense.

With nanos the fc needs a gang on both sides of the gate (as the nano could glide and jump out) and needed a seperate squad of non nanos to counter each nano. Also the fc had to wait till the rare huginn/rapier pilot showed up then base tactics around a few webbers.

Luckily most are training for nanos or can fly them. So the fc needs to only count the number of nanos and bring more nanos + more huginns/rapiers. Simple!

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They die, which is a fact. Everything else is subjective.

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That's not an intellectually honest argument.

Yes, at least one nanoship has died at some point - to suggest anything else is illogical. But simply responding with "they die, is trufax" does not offer a complete picture regarding whether they are balanced or not.

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Originally by: Corstaad

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Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it.

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Originally by: Corstaad

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I'm just saying there's ways to counter them. Alot people are using them, not telling people and theres the confusion. On the same token should we cry nerf over spider tanks?

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Edited by: Semkhet on 03/04/2008 09:40:06

Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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They die, which is a fact. Everything else is subjective.

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That's not an intellectually honest argument.

Yes, at least one nanoship has died at some point - to suggest anything else is illogical. But simply responding with "they die, is trufax" does not offer a complete picture regarding whether they are balanced or not.

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Every encounter where clashing ships did not specifically fit to counter a given setup, and have the misfortune to fall precisely on said setup will lead to an unbalanced engagement.

A single falcon permajamming five 500+dps zealots anyone ? But the fact of the matter is that extremely cheap counters exist.

I'll give you one: Gate camp in a 0.0 entry

Recipe:
1 large bubble
A few drone boats enjoying drone damage bonuses, packing each 1 drone link, 3 drone nav comps, ECCM, a passive tank, smartbombs and T2 warriors.

Among classic nanohacs, only the Ishtar has the range allowing not to enter the bubble. Not a problem, that's why you have the smartbombs for.

The others must enter the bubble to inflict damage. Tackling problem solved.

Unleash your drones. A nanoship attacked by 20 or more T2 warriors won't last long, specially when they fly faster than him what negates his speedtank.

You're facing an overwhelming force, nanoed or not ? Jump out, or deaggro and jump out.

Risk = 0, you only can loose the bubble or drones in the worst case.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Originally by: Xaen

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Not for soloing, but you don't need a recon. It will effectively shut down 2-3 nano cruisers at once. Probably eight frigates.

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Vaga is still invulnerable. Even when his cap is gone he can still ride out the current cycle of his MWD and then coast which should easily get him well beyond any trouble and then he can warp away.

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Originally by: Ambien Torca

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So let me get this straight, you are advocating deployment of static bubbles (which takes too long time anyway) as a counter to nano gang? Also, would you as a nanohac gang FC engage such camp (well if gang was big and had plenty of missile ships why not...). Bubble would obviously be primary if campers don¦t have enough logistics and if they do there¦s no reason to and fight them.

As for falcons, any gang can use these ships to their advantage (I see plenty of these in bigger nanogangs these days, used to disable tacklers and remote repping chains) and nanogang has more chances to catch it and kill it than conventionals barring sniper fleet.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: IamAcontractALT

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Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 11:06:27
Whats to stop a nanogang that sees such a drone camp to say "Stuff this guys, wait 30 seconds for session timer to change and lets similtainiously MWD back to gate".

Bang. The entire camp fails to kill 1 guy. And the nanogang goes around the camp leaving the campers looking stupid for setting up a useless anti-nano camp.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: IamAcontractALT

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Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 11:08:04
Whats to stop a nanogang that sees such a drone camp to say "Stuff this guys, wait 30 seconds for session timer to change and lets similtainiously uncloak MWD back to gate".

Bang. The entire camp fails to kill 1 guy. And the nanogang goes around the camp leaving the campers looking stupid for setting up a useless anti-nano camp.

The nanogang can then go around the camp meaning the whole camp was a waste of time.

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Originally by: Derrys

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The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to kill nanos -- of course you can kill a single nano with ten ships specifically configured to take them out!

The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like:

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

and it gets old really fast.

The possibility of tailoring a setup to counter nanos was never in doubt. What deserves scrutiny is the diminishing usefulness of fleets that are neither nanos nor specifically anti-nano in nature. When fleets lack versatility and rely upon only a handful of specific ship types, it speaks to a balance issue that needs to be addressed, and that's what I'm seeing, at least in my neck of the woods.

Yes, people who have a problem killing nanos are simply unwilling or unable to adapt. I agree completely, but that's only part of the problem. The other part is that nano or anti-nano fleets are increasingly becoming the only viable option for small gang PvP. There are a lot of other great ships in the game, and it's a shame they can't be used very much.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Rells

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The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it.

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Originally by: Nexus Kinnon

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Originally by: Alz Shado

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The problem isn't necessarily that Nanos are overpowered, but that their counters are underpowered.

Scripted T1 webs that reach out to 25km and kill momentum as fast as cloaking.

Problem solved.

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...that only AF's can fit....problem solved x 2...maybe..

Originally by: Rells

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I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed.

The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes.

To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything.

Thanks for your time.

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Originally by: ry ry

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i've got an armour tanked stabber. it does a shade over 3000m/s without implants and is complete ****.

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Originally by: Audri Fisher

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On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Vaga is still invulnerable.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Even when his cap is gone he can still ride out the current cycle of his MWD and then coast which should easily get him well beyond any trouble and then he can warp away.

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Conclusion: anyone unable to counter nanos without resorting to rapiers/huginns or nanos sucks, and sucks big time.

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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Edited by: Ephemeron on 03/04/2008 16:10:24

Originally by: Semkhet

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Conclusion: anyone unable to counter nanos without resorting to rapiers/huginns or nanos sucks, and sucks big time.

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Many people agree that they can kill nanoships without rapiers/huginns, but that it is too difficult.

People want easy kills, they don't want to do something hard to get an expensive killmail. And if it takes more effort to kill the other guy than to get your own ship blown up, then that's like a personal insult, the game's not balanced.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Semkhet

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Edited by: Semkhet on 03/04/2008 11:21:21

Originally by: IamAcontractALT

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Edited by: IamAcontractALT on 03/04/2008 11:06:27
Whats to stop a nanogang that sees such a drone camp to say "Stuff this guys, wait 30 seconds for session timer to change and lets similtainiously MWD back to gate".

Bang. The entire camp fails to kill 1 guy. And the nanogang goes around the camp leaving the campers looking stupid for setting up a useless anti-nano camp.

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Because you don't release the drones until you are aggroed, what means that:

1) The nanogang had no way to know that you are using highly speed boosted drones.

2) The nanogang can't jump through the gate since they've aggroed.

3) The primaried nanoship don't enjoy enough hitpoints to wait near the gate until the deaggro timer elapses to jump through.

4) The nanoships can't target the T2 warriors as defense because they would loose too much time doing this since almost no nanoship fit webs.

Instead of just looking for any way out of the strategy, you could have constructively extrapolated yourself the logic follow-up of the setup: just have a few classic support ships waiting at the other side of the gate, and call them in when the nanos have aggroed and are in the bubble area.

Nanowhiners excel in a few things though: lack of imagination & common sense.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I mean seriously, drones?

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Goumindong

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But no one says [nano ships] are invulnerable, they say that properly piloted they are invulnerable to ships that are not-nano ships.

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Originally by: Derrys

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...

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

...

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Originally by: Derrys

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The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to kill nanos -- of course you can kill a single nano with ten ships specifically configured to take them out!

The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like:

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

and it gets old really fast.

The possibility of tailoring a setup to counter nanos was never in doubt. What deserves scrutiny is the diminishing usefulness of fleets that are neither nanos nor specifically anti-nano in nature. When fleets lack versatility and rely upon only a handful of specific ship types, it speaks to a balance issue that needs to be addressed, and that's what I'm seeing, at least in my neck of the woods.

Yes, people who have a problem killing nanos are simply unwilling or unable to adapt. I agree completely, but that's only part of the problem. The other part is that nano or anti-nano fleets are increasingly becoming the only viable option for small gang PvP. There are a lot of other great ships in the game, and it's a shame they can't be used very much.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Nanoships die, and die in preety big numbers when you look at stats.

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As has already been covered:

A: because lots of people fly them
B: because they are killed by other nano-ships.

Lots of phoons and domis died back during the i-stab phase. That didn't make them balanced.

Quote:

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Which means, you are the one arguing against facts when you whine about them. Boo-fricking-hoo.

Claiming that you're supported by 'facts' is just rubbish. You have a gripe with your inability to deal with the playstyle, which is valid, as a subjective opinion.

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You are the ones claiming things as facts that aren't supported by either evidence or argument. You've no argument supporting why there should be a single optimal option for combat.

You've submitted no ways to kill nano-ships. Especially not not any reasonable counter...

I know exactly how to counter the tactics[fly nano-ships], i just do not believe that these counters are reasonable

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Originally by: Rells

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You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily.

---

Originally by: Rells

---

I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed.

The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes.

To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything.

Thanks for your time.

---

Originally by: Rells

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The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships.

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Originally by: SwindonBadger

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Originally by: Derrys

---

The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to kill nanos -- of course you can kill a single nano with ten ships specifically configured to take them out!

The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like:

Vagabond
Vagabond
Ishtar
Rapier
Ishtar
Rapier
Taranis
Falcon
Vagabond
Rapier

and it gets old really fast.

The possibility of tailoring a setup to counter nanos was never in doubt. What deserves scrutiny is the diminishing usefulness of fleets that are neither nanos nor specifically anti-nano in nature. When fleets lack versatility and rely upon only a handful of specific ship types, it speaks to a balance issue that needs to be addressed, and that's what I'm seeing, at least in my neck of the woods.

Yes, people who have a problem killing nanos are simply unwilling or unable to adapt. I agree completely, but that's only part of the problem. The other part is that nano or anti-nano fleets are increasingly becoming the only viable option for small gang PvP. There are a lot of other great ships in the game, and it's a shame they can't be used very much.

---

this,

OB love fleet bs, or close range bs, but they move slow, no probs if ur enemy has to do the same. Trouble is our enemies will be allaicnes and cyno chains. U cant realy fight that with bs unless u run cloaks/logg off. Most of these folks will scream if u use vaggas eg "U only use nanno..." the same folk who scream like that wont engage when u use a bs gang untill its so one sided it wont be a fight. Nannos I think are too fast not by much but the speeds we are reaching are too fast for nanno v nanno fights (3 to 8 kps max would be great again with 3 kps being standerd t1 no skills mwd inty, 8kps with snakes max skills).

Fighting a crow in a rails ranis all outside of web range is a very skillfull event, when ur inties have a few k between them it is easy for one inty to take on many others and close figt to ensure, when the speed diffences are up to 10kps its almost impossible.

It is a shame so many ships do get left on the shelf but when u face the mentality of the masses of "we must worry about kd ratio or dying" rather then actually leaning to fight/play the game the evaporation of roaming bs/ comand ship gangs is very easdy to see.

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Originally by: Crane Blackthorn

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"The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat."

IMHO each ship has it's role in the game. Vaga's role is guerilla and one should not get angry that his ship is not as good as Vaga doing hit and run ops.

Cerberus is an ultimate mission runner's dream, Ishtar is nice allrounder and Zealot is underpowered, vaga is a small to medium time pvp ship and that's it!

nanovaga will not work in a great number of situations and is not suited for vast number of tasks. It has it niche when where it tops all the others but this is as it should be.

Regarding possible counter tactics - I suppose it's more down to equal resources... have a 1billion mil vaga and think of a fleet for the same price to counter it! and hey... nanovagas x4 vs other HAC x4 makes other HAC run. And thats a point of usuing vagas! double the other HAC's number with 3 good webifier ships to pick up vagas one by one and vaga will run... that's the way the game is made and the way it should be... IMHO

FS!

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/04/2008 18:50:50
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/04/2008 18:48:21

Originally by: Goumindong

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Yet you all keep arguing against facts...

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Nanoships die, and die in preety big numbers when you look at stats.

Which means, you are the one arguing against facts when you whine about them. Boo-fricking-hoo.

Don't like it how some people are more successful at killing nanoships then you? Cry me a river.

Nanoships are vunerable and they die. Fact. Nomatter how much you try to make up excuses, it's cold, hard fact.

Claiming that you're supported by 'facts' is just rubbish. You have a gripe with your inability to deal with the playstyle, which is valid, as a subjective opinion.

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Originally by: Derrys

---

...

Yes, people who have a problem killing nanos are simply unwilling or unable to adapt. I agree completely, but that's only part of the problem. The other part is that nano or anti-nano fleets are increasingly becoming the only viable option for small gang PvP. There are a lot of other great ships in the game, and it's a shame they can't be used very much.

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Originally by: Reem Fairchild

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Originally by: Derrys

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Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:05:13

Originally by: Corstaad

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Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it.

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The fact that there's only a couple viable types of roving gang is strong evidence of the problem I'm talking about.

If the only way to have fun is to fly a Vagabond, Ishtar, or Rapier, then don't you agree there's something wrong with the rest of the ships?

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Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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All it takes sometimes is an inty or two getting close and holding you down.

As you say "oh ****", the oh-so-helpful Cerb and Drake pilots you're fighting against drop a swarm of missiles on your expensive toy. And you go pop.

Bye bye, 250m ISK!

[serious]Its balanced, it really is.

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

---

All it takes sometimes is an inty or two getting close and holding you down.

As you say "oh ****", the oh-so-helpful Cerb and Drake pilots you're fighting against drop a swarm of missiles on your expensive toy. And you go pop.

Bye bye, 250m ISK!

[serious]Its balanced, it really is.

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Originally by: Enkryption

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Not only do nanohacs need a nerf, webs need a buff or more ships with web bonuses need to be introduced. Every race should have a ship that gets a web bonus.

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Originally by: Inertial

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Nanoes are not a problem.

The problem is stupidity.

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Originally by: Ralara

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Vaga is still invulnerable. Even when his cap is gone he can still ride out the current cycle of his MWD and then coast which should easily get him well beyond any trouble and then he can warp away.

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Sure. But then you would have more than a BS with heavy neuts, you might have, say, your own support gang with, shock-horror, some interceptors or a rapier to keep it in place?

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Originally by: Tarminic

---

And what's to keep the plot from simply disengaging?

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Originally by: Erik Morkai

---

My my, I have to wonder how many of you actually fly a Vaga. It's a tough ship to learn to fly to get it to the 'Invincible' realm you all want to put it in. Oh, thats right, just train the skills, buy the ship and you are an unstoppable eve pvp god. lol.

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

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Originally by: IamAcontractALT

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Originally by: Tarminic

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So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)?

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Aparently, you need 9 pilots to counter 1 nanopilot???

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Originally by: Chris Vattic

---

I don't think our everyday nanogangs should be removed / nerfed to oblivion, speed tanking has always been and should be a viable way of staying alive.No question about that.

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Quote:

---

Vagabonds are meant to be fast and when a person spends 500 million on implants, he / she should get something back in return, right?

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Quote:

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They can't really kill anything that has something resembling of a tank anyway.

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Quote:

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Nanoships are actually quite difficult to operate, one mistake, no matter how little, usually results in you being webbed and, poof, there goes all the ISK down the drain.

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Quote:

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However, the only thing I do have a problem with is high DPS ships, such as Ishtars, Sacriledges, Cerberuses ( Jesus Christ... ) and god forbid, battleships, flying 5 km / second.

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Quote:

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Nanoed Caldari vessels are a blasphemy as it is.
Those beasts do quite a bang and when you combine it with their ability to run away at will, it will start to look a bit overpowered in my personal opinion.

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Quote:

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So I give my vote to giving speed modules heavy stacking penalties

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Quote:

---

After all, who wants to see "god mode" Ishtars anyway.

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Quote:

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Also, please cut them nano pilots some slack. Those guys risk a lot more than you ever will. Yes, it is hard to catch them, but when something takes some skills to fly then it should take some skills to take them down too

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Originally by: Dramaticus

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remove the explosion velocity factor from missiles and i'll be happy.

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Originally by: Corstaad

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I'm just saying there's ways to counter them. A lot of people are using them, not telling people and theres the confusion. On the same token should we cry nerf over spider tanks?

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Originally by: Chris Vattic

---

Some examples how we do it:
- Energy neutralizers - When someone wants to tackle you, he will also need to come into the 25 km range. Two to three heavy neuts and, tadaa, all the juicy cap for Micro Warp Drives alpha'd.
- ECM - The gift from heavens, take a few Falcon pilots with you and you can shut off any reasonably sized roaming gang.
- Baiting - Equip a web + disruptor to a cheap exhumer ( Skiff for example ), warp in your buddies and he will never know what the hell just happened :)
- Webbing - I humbly present you the Hyena. Really, that bugger is cheap as chips and with a 20km webifier range your friendly Vagabond pilot will think twice before engaging a gang with a few of those.
- Tracking Disruptors - Two TDs equipped with falloff scripts and the Vagabond pilot is left with an 8 km range. You all know what that means of course
- Drones, yummi - Unleash a swarm of Warriors and every nanopilot either runs or dies.

I could go on and on, but I think ( or at least hope ) you can use your magination a little too

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Originally by: Nyphur

---

2) An effective nano-fit vagabond does not require a billion isk investment. Other ships might but the vagabond can reach speeds of over 10km/s with just Tech 1 rigs and Tech 2 gear. No implants, no deadspace MWD. When the mwd is overloaded, it gains a 50% boost to effectiveness, which is pretty scary. The damage done to the mwd by overheating it can be repaired in-space using nanite repair paste, making it a viable option for a roaming gang. If four nanovagas can be essentially unstoppable by a gang of five or six battleships or other HACs, the field of play is skewed toward the vagabonds.

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Originally by: Inertial

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Nanoes are not a problem.

The problem is stupidity.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

---

Nanoships zooming around is fine. What needs to be done, however, is for people who fight nanoships to be able to tackle them.

The issue is not "nerf nano". Rather, it is to boost counters to allow people to kill nano pvpers. Currently, If I want to kill off a nanoship, I need to use a nanoship to tackle it. its a bit like the old ECM debate prior to ecm nerf, where everyone fitted ecm and the counter to ECM was ECMing the enemy first. PvP became a battle of who could ECM the fastest

CCP fixed that. People started abusing nos on non-amarr ships, and CCP nerfed that. Dampners became the new tactic, and those got nerfed.

Basically, any tactic that give the pilto low risk pvp at the expensive of the opponent having high risk pvp for simaler numbers get nerfed. WCS pvp got nerfed. Non-Cov Ops cloak pvp got nerfed.

Yes, there will be those saying that people are not creative enough to kill nano-pvpers. As a nano-pvper myself I disagree, rather, the tools available are not practical for this new style of pvp.

Webs dont have long enough range, webs do not slow targets down fast enough, neuts are only viable for longer battles since a nanoship can use its existing velocity to move outside nuet range, or cycle mwd between neut cycles to escape. Having Huggins etc just means that the nanogang blobs up untill it can win, or just escape easaly. And even Huginns are not effective enough unless they are nanoed up to lock down a nanoship for long enough for it to slow down.

Yeah people will say use super rare rat loot like officer gear and faction to tackle a fully player manufacturable t2 fitted and rigged ship. That is not competitive at all and neither is it practical.

Back to point, there needs to be more realistic counters to nanoships other than using nanoships themselves.

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Originally by: BIZZAROSTORMY

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Ive said it before and Ill say it again. Mobile stasis webification fields ftw.

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Originally by: AlexiK

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Rapiers/Huggins anyone?
with 2-3 of them a nanogang will go away

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Originally by: Enkryption

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Originally by: AlexiK

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Rapiers/Huggins anyone?
with 2-3 of them a nanogang will go away

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So everyone should be forced to train minmitar recons to be able to counter nanogangs? Yah I can see it happening...not really.

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Originally by: Enkryption

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Originally by: AlexiK

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Rapiers/Huggins anyone?
with 2-3 of them a nanogang will go away

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So everyone should be forced to train minmitar recons to be able to counter nanogangs? Yah I can see it happening...not really.

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Originally by: AlexiK

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Rapiers/Huggins anyone?
with 2-3 of them a nanogang will go away

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Originally by: Garek Law

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Originally by: BIZZAROSTORMY

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Ive said it before and Ill say it again. Mobile stasis webification fields ftw.

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A module for dictors that would do that would be great too.

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Originally by: Euriti

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Edited by: Euriti on 05/06/2008 09:29:55


If you fail to fit MWD or Web you deserve to die.

If you dont have overload your char is most likely not old enough.

Use heavy neuts also if you can.

This is how garmon kills nanos

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