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The "REAL" Nano Problem

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Rells	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [1] I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed. The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes. To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything. Thanks for your time. http://www.agony-unleashed.com/Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.[/url]
Rells Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.04.02 17:26:00 - [2] I would just like to take a moment to cover the real nano problem in Eve and how it should be addressed. The problem, put simply, is that pilots in the forums are not creative enough, nor tactically minded enough to think of a counter to nano oriented ships. Vagabonds, Faction Crows and all other nano ships can be caught given skilled pilots and the right combination of gear. The result is the destruction of billions of isk and that oh so fun feeling of accomplishment. Is this a miracle? Nope. Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Swap in a Rapier or Hugin or something with more dps and it will be a slaughter with less ships. Killing that faction interceptor can be done with a single tech 1 frigate and a bit of skill. Interdictors need to go fast to live. Ditto for interceptors and fast cruisers. Vagabonds with webs on them get squished like grapes. To fix this prevalent problem in the Eve universe we need CCP to do ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If anything they should restore interdictors to their old speed levels and simply wait for the players to wise up or quit. Destroying the game for the sake of people that can not think on their feet, are unable to employ tactical teamwork and think "creativity" is a Christmas display at Wal-Mart is not the answer to anything. Thanks for your time.
Kurtis Lowe Borderlands corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:29:00 - [3] Right on. My views do not necessarily represent the views of my corp or alliance, they are my own sick twisted views :)
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:32:00 - [4] This is going to turn into another 10+ page threadnought as soon as Goumindong finds out about it
Ra'ven Spire The Elear FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:32:00 - [5] Rells for president 2009!
Bloodlet Eyes Shadows of the Dead Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:36:00 - [6] /signed
Kurtis Lowe Borderlands corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Ephemeron This is going to turn into another 10+ page threadnought as soon as Goumindong finds out about it Doubtful. FACT is hard to argue against. eg: CCP needs to do NOTHING to fix this issue. My views do not necessarily represent the views of my corp or alliance, they are my own sick twisted views :)
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Kurtis Lowe Originally by: Ephemeron This is going to turn into another 10+ page threadnought as soon as Goumindong finds out about it Doubtful. FACT is hard to argue against. eg: CCP needs to do NOTHING to fix this issue. Yet you all keep arguing against facts... Quote: Some rather simple techniques and tactics can do it. You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Vote Goumindong for CSM
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:48:00 - [9] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/04/2008 18:48:21 Originally by: Goumindong Yet you all keep arguing against facts... Nanoships die, and die in preety big numbers when you look at stats. Which means, you are the one arguing against facts when you whine about them. Boo-fricking-hoo. Don't like it how some people are more successful at killing nanoships then you? Cry me a river. Nanoships are vunerable and they die. Fact. Nomatter how much you try to make up excuses, it's cold, hard fact. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:50:00 - [10] ADAPT OR DIE. That's how it's supposed to be. Black Hand.
Derrys Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:52:00 - [11] The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to kill nanos -- of course you can kill a single nano with ten ships specifically configured to take them out! The problem is one of balance. Most days, my overview looks like: Vagabond Vagabond Ishtar Rapier Ishtar Rapier Taranis Falcon Vagabond Rapier and it gets old really fast. The possibility of tailoring a setup to counter nanos was never in doubt. What deserves scrutiny is the diminishing usefulness of fleets that are neither nanos nor specifically anti-nano in nature. When fleets lack versatility and rely upon only a handful of specific ship types, it speaks to a balance issue that needs to be addressed, and that's what I'm seeing, at least in my neck of the woods. Yes, people who have a problem killing nanos are simply unwilling or unable to adapt. I agree completely, but that's only part of the problem. The other part is that nano or anti-nano fleets are increasingly becoming the only viable option for small gang PvP. There are a lot of other great ships in the game, and it's a shame they can't be used very much.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:55:00 - [12] Quote: You can kill a cruiser with a fast frigate and 8 destroyers fairly easily I would bloody well hope so, nine ships against one. ffs even the Americans could win with that odds. Its just a pity that you need so many proper ships to kill a kiting mage, sorry nano-boatie.
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.04.02 18:59:00 - [13] Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Derrys	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:05:13 Originally by: Corstaad Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it. The fact that there's only a couple viable types of roving gang is strong evidence of the problem I'm talking about. If the only way to have fun is to fly a Vagabond, Ishtar, or Rapier, then don't you agree there's something wrong with the rest of the ships? Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Tarminic	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:02:00 - [15] So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.4 (Updated 3/31)
Corstaad Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:09:00 - [16] When your roving you want speed not slow big ships. Lets you cover lots of ground and select your targets. There as been many games that had wide open PvP areas and if you didn't use some sort of speed you didn't even try. EvE isn't arena pvp its a huge open space to find people you need to be able to cover ground and hopefully win a fight. Those HAC's and RECON's are just popular models for Cruisers.
IamAcontractALT Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Tarminic So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)? Aparently, you need 9 pilots to counter 1 nanopilot???
Corstaad Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:11:00 - [18] Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him .
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Corstaad Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him . And what's to keep the plot from simply disengaging? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.4 (Updated 3/31)
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Cpt Branko Nanoships die, and die in preety big numbers when you look at stats. As has already been covered: A: because lots of people fly them B: because they are killed by other nano-ships. Lots of phoons and domis died back during the i-stab phase. That didn't make them balanced. Quote: Which means, you are the one arguing against facts when you whine about them. Boo-fricking-hoo. Claiming that you're supported by 'facts' is just rubbish. You have a gripe with your inability to deal with the playstyle, which is valid, as a subjective opinion. You are the ones claiming things as facts that aren't supported by either evidence or argument. You've no argument supporting why there should be a single optimal option for combat. You've submitted no ways to kill nano-ships. Especially not not any reasonable counter... I know exactly how to counter the tactics[fly nano-ships], i just do not believe that these counters are reasonable Vote Goumindong for CSM
Alski Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:14:00 - [21] The real nano problem is less people than ever flying interdictors because there speed nerf makes them a flying coffin. errr... i mean even more of a flying coffin. - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Everyone Dies Lucky Tampon	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:15:00 - [22] Originally by: IamAcontractALT Originally by: Tarminic So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)? Aparently, you need 9 pilots to counter 1 nanopilot??? Yeah 9 ships to counter nano... speed doesn't need a nerf it really doesn't.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Corstaad Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him . You forgot to assume that the pilot has a brainstem. Its like saying a megathron can kill a vagabond because the vagabond can run into web range and turn its mwd off. Vote Goumindong for CSM
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:21:00 - [24] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 02/04/2008 19:25:43 Originally by: Tarminic So can you please explain to me how 8 destroyers and an interdictor can kill a Vagabond (assuming that the pilot has a brain stem)? He'll tell you but you have to sign up for the Agony Unleashed course to find out. (I think Rells is a straight shooting [figuratively speaking] guy near as I can tell but honestly my first thought was this was a rouandabout way to promote Agony Unleashed courses) And yeah...something seems wrong when you need nine ships to kill one T2 cruiser not to mention even with that many senior players are still puzzled how you manage it. Perhaps more to the point why some here think having to dig up nine ships to kill one cruiser is a balanced mechanic. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Sirial Soulfly Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Sirial Soulfly on 02/04/2008 19:24:05 Just remove the mwd module and lets see what max speeds people are able to achieve with afterburners only =)
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Rells You can kill a Faction Vagabond with an interdictor and 8 destroyers fairly easily. Bull. ****. He'd never engage you solo. He'd MWD back to the gate if you were waiting there for him, or he'd MWD AWAY so much faster than any of your ships. If you baited him he'd kill the baitship and leave when the gang arrived. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Corwain DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Corstaad Tarminic pull him out of warp when he goes to engage the lol dessie's and kill him . You forgot to assume that the pilot has a brainstem. Its like saying a megathron can kill a vagabond because the vagabond can run into web range and turn its mwd off. Sorry for the doublepost but LOL that's the most perfect forum analogy I've ever heard. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Derrys Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:05:13 Originally by: Corstaad Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it. The fact that there's only a couple viable types of roving gang is strong evidence of the problem I'm talking about. If the only way to have fun is to fly a Vagabond, Ishtar, or Rapier, then don't you agree there's something wrong with the rest of the ships? Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships. Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed. What?
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:36:00 - [30] The problem isn't necessarily that Nanos are overpowered, but that their counters are underpowered. Scripted T1 webs that reach out to 25km and kill momentum as fast as cloaking. Problem solved. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand

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