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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
What'hat
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Posted - 2008.04.10 12:29:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: jinius
i bought isk and now am neg over 300 mil, my fault of course should have read into it before i did it, but if i would have known about the whole gtc thing i would have gladly done that instead, now i can't even sell of items too make up for the money, really would have been nice if this would have been brought to light a long time ago.
Have you tried reading the EULA?... You know, the one they stick up in your face, when you make a new account?
It says quite clearly what happens to your account if you buy ISK... Maybe you should read it next time...
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Huberek Morchu
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Posted - 2008.04.10 12:40:00 -
[122]
Personally Im against players being able to pay to get ahead, but meh. This system at least helps get rid of the isk for cash side of things.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:18:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Blazde
In other words the statement in bold from the devblog is completely false? It's merely a bit more pricey than doing it illegally, and takes a bit longer. I've watched people buying titanesque numbers of GTC and sell them in a few days. Not as easy as dialing 1800-ISKPLS I'll admit but it does have the benefit of being a lot safer.
I don't mind if CCP want to allow GTC trading, it's their game. I personally wouldn't, but it's not my choice.
What I do have a problem with is the dishonesty (or ignorance) about the real effects of such a descion.
People buy titans with real life money via the GTC system. Fact.
People fuel wars with real life money via the GTC system. Fact.
Game balance is affected by the GTC trading system. Fact.
Devs being upfront and open with players is one of the things that first attracted me to this game. Fortunately it seems a GM wrote this misguided paragraph not a dev so hopefully all is still well.
Financing a war by selling gtcs... Well that shows just how good that war is going 
160mil a pop, 15$ each, now a titan cost what? 50ish bil base, 50ish bil for skills/bp
100billion/160million comes out to 625 gtcs, $9375... for a game
and thats not counting the massive amounts of hauling or holding sovereignty at all
oh and not to mention dropping that many gtcs into the market would most likely drop the value, or is the gtc demand way stronger then i ever could have guessed?
mommy why do the rich kids get to plop more quarters into the arcade machines 
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Xaen
Caldari
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:44:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
mommy why do the rich kids get to plop more quarters into the arcade machines
So that the poor kids can play the game for free?
I don't have a problem with it since it's other players they're buying isk from.
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Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Sensei Cohiba
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:53:00 -
[125]
To all the people who complain about "look at the ice belts, its full of macro miners" there is no way of noing that for true.
I have usually at least 8 toons mining ice all together all day. To any observer, they look like a macro fleet... but Im no macro! Im sitting there clicking away. I sell the ice, transfer to my main. and I transfer BIG sums.
Ok - now pretend I was selling that isk for real money. You would say "track who I make 'donations' to" but its not that easy. The professional isk sellers dont transfer money. They legitimately buy modules off the market for billions of isk, leave these items (top faction implants etc) in secure cans in space, and pick up the items in disposable alts which are used to sell the isk in case they get caught. This is incredibly hard to track, and the accounts you catch are the 'disposable' ones used to sell isk that have no skills.
The ice macro fleets are untouched as they have done nothing more illegal than jettison secure cans worth billions for their alts to pick up and sell to customers.
...so how do CCP distinguish between professional real money farmers and me, a by-the-book farmer who just has a ****load of toons and mines ice for his whole alliance?
my 3 pence. 
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Reptzo
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:53:00 -
[126]
Personally, i feel that the arguments against RMT go hand in hand with multiple accounts. Since multiple accounts is essentially a form of RMT. You can afford to pay more, so you get more advantage, by being able to constantly have a wingman or 2 or 3.
That being said, I think the GTC system is the best way to combat RMT. And I see nothing wrong with having multiple accounts.
I am just saying that RMT and multiple accounts essentially do the same thing, they enable players with more cash to be "better". So you can't really argue against one without arguing against the other.
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Stickletodd
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.04.10 14:43:00 -
[127]
Being kind of new to Eve, I am not at all sure how the GTC thing works. How do I buy GTC to sell? Do I have to have a web site? If I have to set up an external business to sell GTCs to make money, then the expense of playing the game goes way up. Where is the market for selling GTCs?
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Reptzo
Master Miners
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Posted - 2008.04.10 14:59:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Stickletodd
Being kind of new to Eve, I am not at all sure how the GTC thing works. How do I buy GTC to sell? Do I have to have a web site? If I have to set up an external business to sell GTCs to make money, then the expense of playing the game goes way up. Where is the market for selling GTCs?
Go here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=channel&channelID=544711 and all will be answered for you.
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Marcus Aureliuz
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Posted - 2008.04.10 15:02:00 -
[129]
The big question I have is why is it against the EULA to BUY the ISK but its NOT against the EULA to SELL it? Seems the wrong way to go about things. If you can ban a player for buying it you should be able to legally go after the companies that sell it. After all it's YOUR game and YOUR rights as the manufacturer they are in violation of. I had a friend banned from eve back when contracts were escrow because a, "known isk seller" purchased his items from escrow. It's left a bad taste in my mouth ever since and I hardly use the contract system out of fear that a, "know isk seller" might buy an item I put up there since we have no control over who picks up those items.
I fully support CCP's attemtps to nail the ISK buyers and sellers however the methods being used do not seem fair to the players that are doing things that are legit.
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Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.10 15:49:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Ki Anna on 10/04/2008 15:49:57
Originally by: Marcus Aureliuz
The big question I have is why is it against the EULA to BUY the ISK but its NOT against the EULA to SELL it?
Did you bother to check the EULA before posting.
Originally by: EULA
B. Selling Items and Objects
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation ...
Not only to do they specify that you cannot sell or auction items, you cannot even offer to sell or action items. CCP can ban ISK sellers for simply making the offer even without completing the transaction.
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Todd Doughnut
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Posted - 2008.04.10 16:03:00 -
[131]
It would also help the game greatly, if instead of merely banning isk traders we were also allowed to PERSECUTE macroers. I recently set 3 of my characters to -10 sec status by blowing up their zombie haulers for a few hours. Viewing the combat logs it should be obvious that they were macroers at a glance.
1. they had charnames that were strings of numbers (i.e. jimmy 001, jimmy002 for example)
2. No response to my prolonged devastation whatsoever.
3. predictable, time-symmetrical behaviour over long periods of time.
Couldnt we have a new petition ---> Report a Macro petition. And can I have my sec status back? 
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Cosa Nostradamus
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Posted - 2008.04.10 16:14:00 -
[132]
Why doesn't CCP take as strong as action against the isk farmers as they do against the isk buyers? Macro groups are not hard to spot, yet I don't see them being cut off at the knees. They can be found in any hi-sec ice field in the game. If CCP really cares about the gameplay that much, they would put more effort into punishing the supply chain as well as the demand. |
Ki Anna
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.04.10 16:36:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Todd Doughnut
3. predictable, time-symmetrical behaviour over long periods of time.
Of the criteria you listed only one of them indicates that you are dealing with a macro.
There is no policy against the use of sequencial names.
There is no policy that requires players to respond to your actions.
There are plenty of reasons why a real player would choose to name their characters sequencially.
There are plenty of reasons why a real player would choose not to respond to your "prolonged devastation."
If you have evidence of time-symmetrical behaviour, then submit that in a petition. Otherwise you have nothing.
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Hokage Jiraiya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.10 16:38:00 -
[134]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Another thing is scale. The regular player who wants a few hundred millions in his wallet will have no problem using the Secure ETC Trading System for this purpose, while at the same time helping another EVE player pay for his subscription. Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.
Oddly enough I know numberous people who buy stacks of 10 to 50 GTCs, my 2year old could tell you that 170mil isk x 10 30day GTC = 1,7bil .......
As usual hypocritical and one sided unjustified random "let's make funny logic" posting by CCP yet again! Stop talking to us like 2year olds even my daugther hates that! CCP Publie Relationship epic fail as usual.
Re macro haulers in metropolis :/ many many Red Alliance alts, just keep ganking those haulers and presto all the RA alt and pet corps come to the rescue. You would think CCP would get rid of those macro haulers after complains from numberous people over a period of 1year.
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InnerDrive
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.04.10 18:31:00 -
[135]
Edited by: InnerDrive on 10/04/2008 18:33:51
Keep up the good work CCP! BURN THEM DIRTY ISK SELLERS/BUYERS!
As for those that keep asking anoying questions about how much isk was caught/how manny people got banned etc etc... Jeeeeez does it really mather? Will it make a difference if it was 5000 or 2000 people? Your going to tell me you know the difference those 3000 more make? Seriously they coud have banned just 10 that made up 90% of the isk selling market...
Just lett them do their job and stop asking silly questions.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.04.10 20:52:00 -
[136]
okey.. and here i was thinking that isk for real cash was bad because it destroyed the fair playground and equal opportunities for players to compete without having to pump hundreds of RL euro into the game, when it is not about any of this but just about CCP making the money and people getting a free gameplay and the rest can go f*** themself..
damn NOW i am totally enlightened and understand it all, it makes perfectly sense..
the EVAEAL dudes who gives isk for 2euro per 100mill and the ccp who gives it for 7 euro per 100 mill, but the eveail dudes are BAD mmmkay....
i think any kind of isk for real money is a problem and i don't care how you explain it, if you give isk (which is the "you can get it all with enough of this" in eve) for rl cash, then you have already totally broken that barrier...
"alliances should not be able to blablablablabla" ROBBISH! you are just saying "they shouldn't be able to do it WITHOUT US! making money on it "..
which is fine, just come out and say it, instead of trying to hide the fact that THAT is the problem...
and yes i see a big problem with isk sellers and they should be stopped, but a see a problem with ccp encouraging isk for rl cash (which gtc's are) too..
I declare war on stupidity |
Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.04.10 21:01:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Reptzo
Personally, i feel that the arguments against RMT go hand in hand with multiple accounts. Since multiple accounts is essentially a form of RMT. You can afford to pay more, so you get more advantage, by being able to constantly have a wingman or 2 or 3.
.
shhhhh don't tell em that they are so far out in the water that even the ships will not reach them XD
but very well put
I declare war on stupidity |
Rural Juror
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Posted - 2008.04.10 21:47:00 -
[138]
So, just to get this straight.
1. Suicide ganking is ok
2. Can flipping is ok.
3. Gang invite/ganks are just fine
4. Spending your own money however you want is bad
I think its just another way CCP wants to corner the market on their product. Only they sell GTC only through them can you play EVE. They don't care about the player as long as the player keeps playing whatever else happens is ok with them. Just another cold heartless Corp trying to hold on to their market share by Crusading against something people know is inherently dangerous. You would have to be an idiot to give your credit card number to someone overseas selling intellectual property that belongs to a 3rd party. You deserve to get ripped off and CCP should just let it happen as they do every other way a player can get ripped off in game. |
Enosh
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Posted - 2008.04.10 22:56:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Enosh on 10/04/2008 23:03:31
Edited by: Enosh on 10/04/2008 23:01:09
Edited by: Enosh on 10/04/2008 22:57:01
Eve, or something like it...
It takes a master to see the obvious. Hence the expression master of the obvious. What is obvious is that at first people buy an account *and* time for that account for RM, now people can just buy time for RM. For those that this is not apparent what we are witnessing is the release of the player condition here.
Before:
Player + RM => Time for that Player only
After:
RM => Time
So here we are fooling ourselves that this, still, is not working.
No economy works with such a onesided sink in place.
The missing part of this premise/economy/structure/world is
Time + Player => RM for that Player only
or simply
Time <=> RM
This way you have a nice little circle and things wont drop to zero value. Yes?
You might have noticed that ISK , the monopoly money of this game, and I stress the monopoly part which is what you try to fool yourself through, even when hiring economics professors, bless him and his crew, to brag that there is an economy in this game was not mentioned here. I used time, coz thats what the RW will bill you for.
So do not view those who revert to clandestine means as evil. In fact they are doing what you have not dared do so far, or are trying to do.
Let me put it another way. Seizures you worry about. People that can earn money from your game, maybe more than you do, do not worry about. Embrase it, for then your game will be worth playing!
Entertainment costs money. Who do you think in the end provides the entertainment? Your missions? Make a single player game then, and stick to that. On the other hand strive to provide for interaction and you move on and ahead with an online multiplayer game.
Some of the 400,000,000 people with brains that somehow are using 12% instead of 10% of capacity that can earn 10% of their colledge fees by making money from an online game, is no joke.
People will look to make money and people will make money to look.
Anyway, I would not have written this if not detected your respect for something you are trying to understand, that is the first step in solving any 'problem'.
Why do people play games? What kind of education are you providing? At some point you might be called to account for believing that education is imagination. But not just yet. So time is your friend, dont sell your friend short. Try.
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Thelina
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Posted - 2008.04.11 03:53:00 -
[140]
The hypocracy of this post is overwhelming. On one hand, CCP supports RMT through eve time cards, yet on the other they demonize it through other methods. You can't have it both ways and expect to maintain any shred of integrity. |
Beaukro
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Posted - 2008.04.11 05:14:00 -
[141]
To stop the 'Real Money', stop the "Macros". In high-sec Ice fields some outfits run four Macros at a time, 24 hours a day. Now you can't convince me that they cannot be detected by EVE.
One way to solve the problem (at least in Ice Fields) is to up the damage rate of the rats. If you're not watching your miner it gets popped. No macros.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.04.11 07:59:00 -
[142]
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)
Intresting. You can run missions with macros? Hmm..
"The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of goldcrap"
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2008.04.11 09:07:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: GM Grimmi
Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)
Intresting. You can run missions with macros? Hmm..
FoFs + passive tanking, only a few buttons to hit...
An ishtar against guristas, I can cook and run guristas missions with mine... If there's not much repop (or they pop drones), last time I had to run to the kitchen not to burn everything, I lost a few drones on a repop.
If you think about it, it's incredible how boring you can make the game if you put wits in it, which means you can automate it.
That's why I prefer running missions with gunboat HACs and CS, at least, there's some fun.
What is not fun and offers no challenge can be macroed easyly...
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Assault Frigates MK II |
3V3
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Posted - 2008.04.11 09:28:00 -
[144]
I always found the spam control in EVE satisfactory, without knowing how much effort it might have been for CCP, I've clearly been bothered a lot less by spam in EVE, than in other games.
The ETC trading is the most brilliant solution I've seen in any game so far, as it is founded on the basic realisation that if there is no legal way to buy alcohol, you're just growing the black market to new hights, thereby increasing crime.
Now, if you can get 300 ship fleet battles to work one day, I will never ask for another patch or update again :)
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BigWhale
Gallente
TGB Foo Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.11 09:32:00 -
[145]
What is the difference between selling ETC and buying ISK? It seems that both actions end with the same thing. Someone got richer in the game by the means of 'out of the world money'. True.
But the main difference is that in the ETC case someone used that ISK to extend their membership. So in a way by selling ETCs for ISK the seller makes it possible for buyer to play the game. As someone said it would take A LOT of ETCs to 'fuel a war'. And this kind of trade doesn't have much impact on in game market. Buying ISK for $ or Ç for that matter is quite different thing. It can hava much bigger impact.
Why are macroers bad? Because they have too much influence on the market. Make mining an arcade game! ;)
--
R, U & Y are letters, not words... |
hornnorth
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Posted - 2008.04.11 10:13:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Vyger
Originally by: GM Grimmi
If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System.
No. How about playing the game.
Disagree with you entirely about GTC. If people have difficulty paying with the existing methods then provide alternative methods, ie. one's that don't involve giving players a means of converting RL money to ISK.
Just a personal opinion though, from one of your 5 year vets.
Quite right, it's still trading RL money for ISK and it screws the in game "economy" and unbalances the game, those with RL money to burn can dominate the markets and general game play |
Thathys
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Posted - 2008.04.11 10:43:00 -
[147]
Jeesus am i tired of this discussion... Arrgh!!
Stop all Isk trading!! Or allow 1x30 day ETC for 30 days!
Some say it's good to be able to pay for game time with Isk,sure it's great.
So limit it to game time and not Isk stacking!!
If all players bought their game time with Isk,what would CCP earn then!!??
0:-
Or am i wrong?
ONLY WAY TO MAKE THE ISK PROBLEM GO AWAY,IS TO HAVE 100% HAPPY CUSTOMERS!!
Thats what we are,so put some effort into customer service and people will be loyal.
or maby i'm wrong.....
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WA Dragon
Caldari
Once More Unto The Breach
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Posted - 2008.04.11 11:15:00 -
[148]
Edited by: WA Dragon on 11/04/2008 11:20:03
I am sorry and don't wish to sound like a troll but we have heard this all before yet the macros and isk sellers have very much grown in numbers rather than become less in the time I have played this game. Being 100% sure a player is a macro is hard to do. Every computer game has its cheats in it why should EVE be any differant. I have reported many obvious macros with out seeing action by CCP or any results in the particular macro being stopped. One of the hardest macros to spot but not impossible are the supervised macro, the office worker who run a macro bot while they are at work, may be on a lap top next to them.
As I see it CCP wont take banning action on any one be they macros or isk sellers because macros and isk sellers make up a good percentage of actualy Real Money Paying eve players.
It don't take a maths genius to work out CCPs losses of takings each month.
Please lets stop kidding our selves here, its all about SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!
I am afraid to say from where I am standing it looks to me like the score in the game of CCP v macros and isk sellers is CCP 0 - Macros 10,000
I say name and shame them show us your results in the fight against these bad guys. Dont give us blarg blarg blarg and expect us to swallow it.
Upon refelxtion what is the main componant to all of this problem....well think about it .....ITS THE GTC SYSTEM simply do away with being able to buy a GTC and 99% of the problem goes away, its as simple as that.
To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question? |
Svekke
Minmatar
Frequent Flyers
Tartarus Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.11 11:43:00 -
[149]
At the end of the day when more and more people try funding their ingame wallet with GTC the GTC prices will go down resulting in a higher $ / isk rate.
Right now it's 150 mil for a 30 day gtc.(15$)
That's 10 mil per 1$.
Looking at the first thing I googled I saw you can buy 10 bil for 571$ as cheapsest.
This rates to 17 mil per 1$.
And now this is pure hypothetically speaking, what I see happening is first of all more people will commence the secure GTC thing to get secure isk for their money. Prices will drop even lower as the offer will keep growing.
Then you'll have a group of people realizing they can buy isk from an isk seller.
Say they buy isk for 20$ and get 340 mil, add 10 mil and they can buy a 90 day GTC.
Where does this become weird?
Let me illustrate:
GTC Buyer pays $68 to CCP
ISK Seller buys 1 GTC for 350 mil isk
GTC Buyer buys 340 mil isk from ISK seller for 20$
GTC Buyer buys GTC from GTC seller for 350 mil isk
CCP got 68$ from 2 90dGTC's
ISK Seller got 90dGTC from GTC seller.
ISK Seller got 20$ from ISK buyer.
GTC Seller got 700 mil for his 68$
Isk Buying GTC Buyer got 90dGTC for 20$
My point here is ISK sellers can sustain themselves indefinitely funding their accounts with their own isk. Giving them 99.9% profit.
0.1% goes to the employee who probably earns like 5 cents a day.
Because they have no life and plenty of time to do it.
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Sophia Stormbringer
Lightning Technologies
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Posted - 2008.04.11 11:53:00 -
[150]
Nice blog post. You forgot to mention the players who are trying to disrupt the isk sellers by themselves though..
These people invest their own hard earned isk into suicide runs against the macroers who are being protected by concord.
Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :) |
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