Quote:

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There are also the macro miners and mission runners, complex farmers and assorted rabble of this sort that causes general nuisance ...

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Originally by: SillyWaif

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Quote:

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There are also the macro miners and mission runners, complex farmers and assorted rabble of this sort that causes general nuisance ...

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I like running missions and I take offence if you compare/associate me(/our corp/other players who like that kind of gameplay) with Real Money Trading. It's annoying enough to see the spam for it in local, without this particular sentence in a Dev Blog...

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Quote:

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we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day.

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Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.
CCP gains in the short run by saturating this intermediate market with its 'currency', namely time cards.
Players might profit in the long run by effectively having reduced monthly costs for playing, possibly with the futher incentive to have more players willing to spend those reduced fees, increasing EVE player base.

Is this worth the trade-off? I don't know. What I object to is the fact that CCP will not state the issue as it clearly is.

Damn this board, BTW, had a really good answer typed and I just got a blank screen and all my hard work gone :(

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Edited by: GM Grimmi on 08/04/2008 13:25:52
Hi,

Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)

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Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.

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Originally by: jbob2000

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I love how GM Grimmi thinks that people wont buy billions of isk with GTCs. Are you kidding? Half the titans out there were funded with GTCs.

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Quote:

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...wallets will simply be put in the negative, making any form of market activity impossible, as well as preventing any actions that require ISK to be spent such as new clones or buying ship insurance.

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Originally by: Xaen

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I'll take things like this seriously when the ISK channel and EVEMail spam cease.

There's no reason CCP can't stop it entirely with a mere bayesian filter on chat and EVE mail, but they seem to think it's too hard, so don't even try.

If Google can do it for all of Gmail without perceivable slowdown of mail delivery, surely CCP can do it for a tiny fraction of the number of accounts and messages that comprises TQ.

I'm tired of the excuses. Reporting sellers is a waste of my time, they'll be back on a new account in less time than it takes me to report them.

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Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

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Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?

IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.

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Originally by: GM Krymus

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Originally by: Xaen

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I'll take things like this seriously when the ISK channel and EVEMail spam cease.

There's no reason CCP can't stop it entirely with a mere bayesian filter on chat and EVE mail, but they seem to think it's too hard, so don't even try.

If Google can do it for all of Gmail without perceivable slowdown of mail delivery, surely CCP can do it for a tiny fraction of the number of accounts and messages that comprises TQ.

I'm tired of the excuses. Reporting sellers is a waste of my time, they'll be back on a new account in less time than it takes me to report them.

---

I completely understand your concerns with regards to this. You may or may not have noticed the dramatic reduction in spam since the deployment of Trinity 1.1, in which a large number of features (as mentioned in the dev blog) were introduced. I agree that if any spam is able to get through (which, unfortunately, some still does) then there is room for improvement. Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players.

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Originally by: GM Guard

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Anyone who feels we have removed his ISK without reason is urged to file a petition so we can look into the matter. All petitions are looked into and replied to.

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Originally by: GM Krymus

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Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players.

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Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

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Originally by: GM Guard

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Edited by: GM Guard on 08/04/2008 16:06:36

Originally by: Illusori

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Quote:

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...wallets will simply be put in the negative, making any form of market activity impossible, as well as preventing any actions that require ISK to be spent such as new clones or buying ship insurance.

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Whilst this all sounds very good, what manner of appeals process is there for if someone has had this done to them and recieves no replies to petitions or attempts to find out why it has been done?

It's all well and good to wave a big stick, but if you clobber someone who you shouldn't have, there needs to be a clearly advertised means to appeal the decision, and handled in a timely manner if you're basically making the game unplayable for them!

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That's a good question actually.

Anyone who feels we have removed his ISK without reason is urged to file a petition so we can look into the matter. All petitions are looked into and replied to.

Please note that intentionally unverifiable explanations will not result in us returning ISK, whereas true stories are usually easy to verify in our experience. In other words, please file a petition if you truly received the ISK legitimately but don't bother if you bought it. There are penalties for filing intentionally false petitions and if your ISK came from an ISK seller there is no chance of misleading us into returning it.

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Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before.

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Originally by: GM Faolchu

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Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

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I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out.

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Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

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Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?

IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.

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Originally by: GM Faolchu

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Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

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Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?

IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.

---

While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy. We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.

We GM's always keep an eye on this particular part of EvE and we appreciate any input you players have to give us.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Check the IGE website.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Check the IGE website.

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Wahahaaaaa "currently unavailable" on anything EVE-related. Hooray \o/

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Check the IGE website.

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Wahahaaaaa "currently unavailable" on anything EVE-related. Hooray \o/

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Originally by: GM Faolchu

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Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

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I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out.

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Originally by: GM Faolchu

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Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

---

Perhaps if CCP would provide us with some proof that they were addressing the ISK sales and macro problems in EVE, we could give you more credibility on this matter?

IE, how much ISK have you appropriated, how many accts have you banned. Just give us some concrete examples to show us that you are aware of the problem, have a plan to deal with it, have taken stops to deal with, and have measurable progress.

---

While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy. We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.

We GM's always keep an eye on this particular part of EvE and we appreciate any input you players have to give us.

---

Originally by: GM Faolchu

---

While there has been some discussion to make such numbers and details of action taken public it is against our normal policy.
We approach the matter silently and fight it as hard as we are allowed and hopefully that makes a difference.

---

Quote:

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Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.

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Originally by: Blazde

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Any chance of someone expanding on this, I simply doesn't understand the (implied) economic argument behind it:

Quote:

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Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.

---

---

Quote:

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We know that most players out there dislike the macroers, ISK spammers, complex farmers and other RMT spawn just like we do and we ask for your assistance in dealing with them. Tell your friends that buying ISK is against the EULA if the subject is raised. Tell them about the Secure ETC Trading System. Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!

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Quote:

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This is regarding to some good ideas that WoW may have (ONLY good thing)

Blizzard currently has a program named "Warden". Warden is simply a program that presses ban and wtfpwnts hackers and macroers. However, there is more to Warden than the banning spree. Warden is hooked to a backdoor that is downloaded on all computers that has games of Blizzard downloaded. This backdoor transfers a list of all processes that the computer of the user is currently running as well as those simple scripts. It is then up to a human watcher to make the decision whether or not to blacklist a process. It may not be the most effective way to prevent Farmers but it is simply a horsefly that slowly eats away at their economy.

Backdoors may be illegal but you've agreed to have it on your computer in the EULA ugh

This is my 2 cents

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Originally by: SillyWaif

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Quote:

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There are also the macro miners and mission runners, complex farmers and assorted rabble of this sort that causes general nuisance ...

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I like running missions and I take offence if you compare/associate me(/our corp/other players who like that kind of gameplay) with Real Money Trading. It's annoying enough to see the spam for it in local, without this particular sentence in a Dev Blog...

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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keep in your head in the dirt!

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Now, every time we start denouncing the ISK sellers, some people call us hypocrites because we allow the ISK for ETCs but not ISK for RL money and claim this is the same thing. Nothing could be farther from the truth; the differences are enormous.

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Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before.

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System.

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Originally by: Moraguth

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Now, every time we start denouncing the ISK sellers, some people call us hypocrites because we allow the ISK for ETCs but not ISK for RL money and claim this is the same thing. Nothing could be farther from the truth; the differences are enormous.

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I still haven't seen these "enormous" differences. I agree that ETC stuff is the lesser of two evils, but still.... Basically, people with money to burn irl can use that money to give their eve character more isk. This upsets the ballance. Mostly, i'm upset cause i'm too poor to do it >.<

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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Originally by: SillyWaif

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Originally by: Xaen

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My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before.

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Maybe it's not an option you (want to) use: I have set my CSPA charge to 1 Mil ISK and after that the number spam mails have greatly reduced. I rarely get them these days, luckily. Intention was 'to make them pay'

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Originally by: Wang Chaupang

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Good intentions, but please explain this: if I fly to a random ICE-belt I can spot several macromining groups. Why don't you see them, let alone do anything about them?

I have never bothered reporting them because there are many comments about them not taken seriously.

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Originally by: GM Faolchu

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I'll be spending the rest of my shift sitting in this channel, so far I haven't see anything but I'll keep an eye out.

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Originally by: Moraguth

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Now, every time we start denouncing the ISK sellers, some people call us hypocrites because we allow the ISK for ETCs but not ISK for RL money and claim this is the same thing. Nothing could be farther from the truth; the differences are enormous.

---

I still haven't seen these "enormous" differences. I agree that ETC stuff is the lesser of two evils, but still.... Basically, people with money to burn irl can use that money to give their eve character more isk. This upsets the ballance. Mostly, i'm upset cause i'm too poor to do it >.<

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Originally by: Thargat

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They should change the name of CAOD to EvE Zoo. Please to not feed the animals.

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Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.

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Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

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I'm somewhat offended to be called assorted rabble simply because I like doing the PvE content of EvE!

Surely this can't be what you mean?

If not, an apology would be appropriate ...

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The ability for players to turn RL money into ISK needs to be removed. All this crap about allowing players to 'use ISK to pay' when they otherwise wouldn't have the chance is just crap.

Make an in-game system where you DIRECTLY transfer ISK to CCP and CCP directly adds game time to your account. Period. If your account as expired, then allow a web based interface to accomplish the exact same thing.

No more 3rd party GTC sales and then allowing those GTCs to be traded for ISK. Buy a GTC and use it? Fine. Use ISK in game to purchase more time? Fine. Buy a GTC then trade it for ISK? NOT FINE.

I don't care if it is the 'lesser of two evils'. CCP is directly condoning RMT by allowing this to exist. And there is zero need for it to exist. IMO they don't care about RMT. What they care about is when the RMT doesn't go through THEM, and they don't make the money.

Sure, their system is 'less damaging', but you're still allowing players with stacks of RL money to have a large advantage over someone who doesn't. So yeah CCP, you're still being hypocritical. Don't do it.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!

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Originally by: Z010

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Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.

---

Hardly that. In one sense, and one sense only are they the same. People with cash can buy isk. However, the cash is going into the game (i.e. CCP) and this assists further development of the game. For the seller the isk is used to speed up a process in the game. When it is not ETC the cash goes to a person/people with no interest in EvE other than to make real money from players.

Personally - I have sold GTC via the ETC interface. It is simple, and it is dangerous - in that it can become an addiction - why mine that belt for XXX hours/days when you can sell a GTC and go buy your new EvE gadget, blueprint, etc..

However, I also admit that it has kept me in the game - if I had had to earn all the isk I needed to get my first eve commerce activity going I would have left the game. Eve requires a vision and time, but that is not always "fun". On the otherhand - eventually I hope to buy GTC regularly with the isk I am finally starting to make from these ventures. First I need to get my jump freighter built - about 40% there.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Our very own Customer Service team has written a blog to inform you all about the Secure ETC Trading System and why it should be used. They+re also informing you of some things you might not have been aware of when it comes to Real Money Trading (RMT) like the fact the people you buy from will steal your credit card information if they get the chance, and ISK sellers are also behind macro mining and other things none of us wish to see in EVE. Pleas read Real Money Trading is bad, mkay? to get the full story!

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Originally by: Lance85

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Our very own Customer Service team has written a blog to inform you all about the Secure ETC Trading System and why it should be used. They+re also informing you of some things you might not have been aware of when it comes to Real Money Trading (RMT) like the fact the people you buy from will steal your credit card information if they get the chance, and ISK sellers are also behind macro mining and other things none of us wish to see in EVE. Pleas read Real Money Trading is bad, mkay? to get the full story!

---

I take tremendous offence to the imputation that I (a mission runner) am in anyway associated with isk sellers.
If anything you should be looking towards the people who use probes to get in to our missions and steal our wrecks and loot.

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Originally by: Reptzo

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Edited by: Reptzo on 09/04/2008 00:31:16

Originally by: Blazde

---

Any chance of someone expanding on this, I simply doesn't understand the (implied) economic argument behind it:

Quote:

---

Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.

---

---

In other words, $5000 will buy and outfit a titan (via buying isk from websites). Some people really have this kind of cash to throw around on a game. That same amount of dollars will buy you significantly less via GTC (less than half the isk amount due to recent GTC value crash). The other problem being that you cant just buy 1000 GTCs and sell them instantly. There has to be people wanting to buy them, and it will take quite a while. So yes it can still be done, and yes there are plenty of people with the real life means to buy 1000 GTCs. It is simply a lot harder for them to turn real $$$ into game money via GTC, as apposed to buying it from farmers.

And, the buying of GTCs has a similar but different effect on the economy, it still enables those with real cash, but increases subscriptions. And there are many good threads about the effects and differences so I'm not going to delve into that argument.

---

Originally by: Thathys

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Buying secure ETC codes for selling,isn't that Isk selling?

Players can still buy as much Isk as i want from CCP,if they have enough dollars!?

Shouldn't there be a limit to how much you can buy?

Maby i'm stupid! correct me if i have understood wrong. :)

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Make an in-game system where you DIRECTLY transfer ISK to CCP and CCP directly adds game time to your account. Period. If your account as expired, then allow a web based interface to accomplish the exact same thing.

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Originally by: Moostang

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!

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Do something about the re-tar-ded log off tactics and we can help you alot more. It is too easy for farmers to simply CTRL-Q to evade hostiles. Logging out of the game in hostile territory should NEVER BE A WAY OUT OF A FIGHT!

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Originally by: Reptzo

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Edited by: Reptzo on 09/04/2008 00:31:16

Originally by: Blazde

---

Any chance of someone expanding on this, I simply doesn't understand the (implied) economic argument behind it:

Quote:

---

Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.

---

---

In other words, $5000 will buy and outfit a titan (via buying isk from websites). Some people really have this kind of cash to throw around on a game. That same amount of dollars will buy you significantly less via GTC (less than half the isk amount due to recent GTC value crash). The other problem being that you cant just buy 1000 GTCs and sell them instantly. There has to be people wanting to buy them, and it will take quite a while. So yes it can still be done, and yes there are plenty of people with the real life means to buy 1000 GTCs. It is simply a lot harder for them to turn real $$$ into game money via GTC, as apposed to buying it from farmers.

---

Originally by: Xaen

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Originally by: GM Krymus

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Originally by: Xaen

---

I'll take things like this seriously when the ISK channel and EVEMail spam cease.

There's no reason CCP can't stop it entirely with a mere bayesian filter on chat and EVE mail, but they seem to think it's too hard, so don't even try.

If Google can do it for all of Gmail without perceivable slowdown of mail delivery, surely CCP can do it for a tiny fraction of the number of accounts and messages that comprises TQ.

I'm tired of the excuses. Reporting sellers is a waste of my time, they'll be back on a new account in less time than it takes me to report them.

---

I completely understand your concerns with regards to this. You may or may not have noticed the dramatic reduction in spam since the deployment of Trinity 1.1, in which a large number of features (as mentioned in the dev blog) were introduced. I agree that if any spam is able to get through (which, unfortunately, some still does) then there is room for improvement. Please be assured that we will continue to work on developing tools to prevent spam from reaching players.

---

I haven't noticed a difference.

My SAK alt is still pummeled every 30-90 seconds ISK ads in corp chat. And it's painfully obvious what they are. Price lists anyone?

And Xaen still gets 2-3 evemail spams a week, same as before.

Most of what I see is so obviously ISK spam that any halfassed bayesian filter would nail it in a heartbeat. But you're not using one.

Without giving away circumvention techniques, is there any way to describe what was actually done? I hope it wasn't some stopgap measure like banning accounts. That's like trying to fight a flood with a stick.

---

Originally by: Xaen

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[Just in case you missed it, or they read your post, here's some greped out of my corplog with this little regex: "\\$.*[0-9]m\|[0-9]m.*\\$"

[ 2008.04.05 21:10:00 ] a8xwce > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.05 21:10:06 ] a8xwce > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.05 21:10:49 ] a8xwce > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.05 21:13:00 ] a8xwce > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:35:02 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:35:41 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:36:08 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:36:44 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:37:24 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:38:21 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:39:15 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:39:39 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:40:22 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:41:08 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:43:35 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:44:14 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:49:10 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+7%Free=$1723000M+7%Free=$2065000M+8%Free=$344www[snip]com
[ 2008.04.06 23:49:51 ] z68xdh > www[snip]com 100M+6%Free= $6.991000M+6%Free=$691500M+6%Free=103 ISK and ITEMS2000M+7%Free=$1392500M+

See the timestamps?

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Originally by: Tzrailasa

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Originally by: Moostang

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Help us raise awareness about this whole issue and together we can change the world of EVE for the better!

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Do something about the re-tar-ded log off tactics and we can help you alot more. It is too easy for farmers to simply CTRL-Q to evade hostiles. Logging out of the game in hostile territory should NEVER BE A WAY OUT OF A FIGHT!

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I agree completely....

Not only for farmers, but also certain other groups known for logoffski'ing to avoid fights

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Originally by: Moostang

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I totally agree. I have never nor will I ever log off to avoid a fight. I personally believe that logging off should be a process and that there ONLY be 2 ways to insta log.

a) log off in a station
b) click log off, wait for a shown log off timer to expire, set at say 2 or 5 minutes, then it will insta log.

With this, if you just ctrl q your ship will stay in game for 15 minutes, which is the same amount as the agro timer keeps you in game.

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Originally by: Z010

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Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.

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Hardly that. In one sense, and one sense only are they the same. People with cash can buy isk. However, the cash is going into the game (i.e. CCP) and this assists further development of the game. For the seller the isk is used to speed up a process in the game. When it is not ETC the cash goes to a person/people with no interest in EvE other than to make real money from players.

Personally - I have sold GTC via the ETC interface. It is simple, and it is dangerous - in that it can become an addiction - why mine that belt for XXX hours/days when you can sell a GTC and go buy your new EvE gadget, blueprint, etc..

However, I also admit that it has kept me in the game - if I had had to earn all the isk I needed to get my first eve commerce activity going I would have left the game. Eve requires a vision and time, but that is not always "fun". On the otherhand - eventually I hope to buy GTC regularly with the isk I am finally starting to make from these ventures. First I need to get my jump freighter built - about 40% there.

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Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou

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Edited by: Zetjur Jilnou on 08/04/2008 14:11:35

Originally by: Kayscha

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This just offers RMTers a safe loophole at slightly reduced profits and requiring an extra step, selling time cards for cash at a discount.
CCP gains in the short run by saturating this intermediate market with its 'currency', namely time cards.
Players might profit in the long run by effectively having reduced monthly costs for playing, possibly with the futher incentive to have more players willing to spend those reduced fees, increasing EVE player base.

Is this worth the trade-off? I don't know. What I object to is the fact that CCP will not state the issue as it clearly is.

Damn this board, BTW, had a really good answer typed and I just got a blank screen and all my hard work gone :(

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If you can't completely prevent RMT, what's so bad about having RMT in a way that stops most of the negative aspects - the farming, the hacking and so on?

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Originally by: Eleana Tomelac

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I have a question about buying ETC/GTCs...

I noticed the lack of french resellers, even if the sinclair site has a french version, half the labels are in german, I just can't catch a word of german...
Same for other countries of EU... Many english speaking sites that end all being from north america...

So, any plans on more local resellers or should we buy from the eve-online official shop?

Any resellers that sell GTCs in stores and not just online?



All this is not so important, but when I have newbies asking me about GTCs in my corp and searching for the best way to buy in france, I don't know what's the best to answer, and for those without a credit card, having some physical stores selling GTCs would help them greatly.

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Originally by: jinius

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i bought isk and now am neg over 300 mil, my fault of course should have read into it before i did it, but if i would have known about the whole gtc thing i would have gladly done that instead, now i can't even sell of items too make up for the money, really would have been nice if this would have been brought to light a long time ago.

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Originally by: Blazde

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In other words the statement in bold from the devblog is completely false? It's merely a bit more pricey than doing it illegally, and takes a bit longer. I've watched people buying titanesque numbers of GTC and sell them in a few days. Not as easy as dialing 1800-ISKPLS I'll admit but it does have the benefit of being a lot safer.

I don't mind if CCP want to allow GTC trading, it's their game. I personally wouldn't, but it's not my choice.

What I do have a problem with is the dishonesty (or ignorance) about the real effects of such a descion.

People buy titans with real life money via the GTC system. Fact.
People fuel wars with real life money via the GTC system. Fact.
Game balance is affected by the GTC trading system. Fact.

Devs being upfront and open with players is one of the things that first attracted me to this game. Fortunately it seems a GM wrote this misguided paragraph not a dev so hopefully all is still well.

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Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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mommy why do the rich kids get to plop more quarters into the arcade machines

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Originally by: Stickletodd

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Being kind of new to Eve, I am not at all sure how the GTC thing works. How do I buy GTC to sell? Do I have to have a web site? If I have to set up an external business to sell GTCs to make money, then the expense of playing the game goes way up. Where is the market for selling GTCs?

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Originally by: Marcus Aureliuz

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The big question I have is why is it against the EULA to BUY the ISK but its NOT against the EULA to SELL it?

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Originally by: EULA

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B. Selling Items and Objects
You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation ...

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Originally by: Todd Doughnut

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3. predictable, time-symmetrical behaviour over long periods of time.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Another thing is scale. The regular player who wants a few hundred millions in his wallet will have no problem using the Secure ETC Trading System for this purpose, while at the same time helping another EVE player pay for his subscription. Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money.

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Originally by: Reptzo

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Personally, i feel that the arguments against RMT go hand in hand with multiple accounts. Since multiple accounts is essentially a form of RMT. You can afford to pay more, so you get more advantage, by being able to constantly have a wingman or 2 or 3.
.

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)

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Originally by: Kuolematon

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)

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Intresting. You can run missions with macros? Hmm..

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Originally by: Vyger

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System.

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No. How about playing the game.

Disagree with you entirely about GTC. If people have difficulty paying with the existing methods then provide alternative methods, ie. one's that don't involve giving players a means of converting RL money to ISK.

Just a personal opinion though, from one of your 5 year vets.

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Edited by: GM Grimmi on 08/04/2008 13:25:52
Hi,

Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)

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Originally by: Svekke

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I'm still wanting to see a suicide runner blowing up someone with an empty cargohold :)

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Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)

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• The overseer structure from the mission "Angel Extravaganza" has been removed and the mission re-enabled.

Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)

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Originally by: Agent Li

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it's really ****ing me off to see a 5 day old character with 500 million isk flying around...

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)

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Great idea... but how can you do this and not pull the protection from the rest of the players?

I would love to see the numbers of accounts banned by CCP, the Numbers of ISK taken out of the system... but care must be taken to punish the guilty... not the poor guy next to him trying to feed his POS or get enough Isogen to build that next ship...

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Quote:

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When you buy an ETC and then sell it for ISK via the Secure ETC Trading System you are directly contributing to the growth of EVE as the code will be applied to an account and someone will be using it to play. Some players do not have the means to pay for their subscriptions with credit cards or similar and the Secure ETC Trading System helps them pay and play. The economics are quite different as well since wealth is redistributed between active members of the community rather than injected into the game.

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Originally by: Spumantii

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I can't ******* believe it.

rant...

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Originally by: Agent Li

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)

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Great idea... but how can you do this and not pull the protection from the rest of the players?

I would love to see the numbers of accounts banned by CCP, the Numbers of ISK taken out of the system... but care must be taken to punish the guilty... not the poor guy next to him trying to feed his POS or get enough Isogen to build that next ship...

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Investigate the macroers first. Then set their security status to -10, and zero out their wallets.

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Originally by: DOCBOMO

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New ERA, why not go for a transposition of EVE ISK to challenge currnecy trading. Sad if in 20 years you find out EVE ISK could have been among the first new major currencies i.e. changing the ú.$ etc sytem, of course you would need more populations (e.g. all of France)to Log on.
Just my thoughts from some one who started on ELITE on my old Spectrum and speculated in 20 years we could do what we do in Eve!!
Why not let us all mine ad infinitum when off line?
DO NOT CONSTRAIN YOUR HORIZONS BY CURRENT ECONOMICS> LOOK BEYOND and see what might be achieved.

DOC

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Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Wow, he got punished for accepting a _public_ contract?!
Petition it and point to the fact that it was a public and not private contract. It cannot be that anyone who accepts a public contract can be accused of laundry.

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Originally by: Sophia Stormbringer

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Maybe it is possible to remove concord protection from these macroers? :)

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Originally by: LTcyberT1000

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Well, i think the main reason why EVE gets so lots of isk sellers/macro miners/etc is because of too much crowd in same EVE universe. Comparing with 3 years ago to ~5000 players and 3500 solar systems with ~35 000 players and same 3500 systems is a big difference. For normal player there is not enough space in these days. Try to look percentage not mined out belts with better ore than veldspar and scordite and i am sure it will be >90% of total belts wiped out right before downtime. Same is with 0.0 systems where people are "sitting" squized in crowds on top of each other.

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Quote:

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CCP, player base expanded so much, and it is time to think about opening another EVE galaxy where ALL 40 000 players will fit like it was 3 years ago...

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Originally by: J Valkor

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A. A lot of people do not understand the difference between buying GTC's for ISK and buying cash for ISK. You cannot make a living on one of those things.

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Quote:

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B. A lot of people want to justify their own behavior with a bunch of BS about how CCP is evil or some such nonsense. This ain't the real world, this is CCP's world. If you do not like their rules find another game.

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Quote:

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D. Inflation in EVE is the lowest of any long running MMO I can think of. In a lot of instances items have gotten cheaper since release.

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Originally by: Wyn Pharoh

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Short of invading [insert EVERY developing nation here], lining up and shooting ALL the ISK farmers worldwide in RL...

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Quote:

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Besides, what are they going to do about it? Appeal to a court and admit to breaking a EULA and enabling credit card fraud? Go to some other game? There's no other game like EVE out there to go to.

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Originally by: LTcyberT1000

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Well, i think the main reason why EVE gets so lots of isk sellers/macro miners/etc is because of too much crowd in same EVE universe. Comparing with 3 years ago to ~5000 players and 3500 solar systems with ~35 000 players and same 3500 systems is a big difference. For normal player there is not enough space in these days. Try to look percentage not mined out belts with better ore than veldspar and scordite and i am sure it will be >90% of total belts wiped out right before downtime. Same is with 0.0 systems where people are "sitting" squized in crowds on top of each other.

CCP, player base expanded so much, and it is time to think about opening another EVE galaxy where ALL 40 000 players will fit like it was 3 years ago...

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Originally by: GameNotzi

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"If you need ISK, then please use the Secure ETC Trading System. This system is completely secure and risk free and the ISK you get this way is yours to keep, while we will mercilessly remove ISK bought for real money from ISK sellers, and we remove tens of billions of illegally purchased ISK every day."

This statement is false. The ETC trading system is not secure what so ever. CCP holds you liable for the actions of the people you trade the time too using their system. Without naming names person 'A' purchased a time card through this ETC system and Shateredcrystal. Person 'A' rcvd 360 mil isk and followed the rules exactly.Everything went perfectly-or so we thought. After completing the transaction person 'B' took his new timecard and sold it for real money to another player- person 'B' was caught red handed. Person 'B' got off with a warning and lost his timecard which didnt cost him anything but data on a stupid hardrive in Iceland. Person 'A' was punished more severely when ccp removed the isk from his account. Person 'A' is out real world money and has nothing to show for it. Who wins in the scenario? CCP. Person 'A' went through the proper channels and pleaded with CCP to be compensated somehow. Person 'A' also demanded person 'B' be banned for abusing the ETC system. Here is GM Krymus's response

"I wish we did not have to take these actions, but we prefer to remove the isk, rather than banning the account as we are aware that many simply do not read the rules"
" It is absolutely certain that all donations from this character were being sold for real money. As such, we are forced to remove the ISK from those who received it, as this is a violation of the EVE Online EULA"

I dont have a problem with ccp removing the isk from the game. I do however, have a problem with CCP profiting from the sale of the timecard and not giving anything to anyone. Person A followed the rules and was punished more severely than person 'b', who was clearly the guilty party according to the GM. CCP should either provide a timecard,ISK in question, or at least a partial refund to Person 'A' money minus shatteredcrystal's cut.
For those of you like me considering using the ETC system keep this in mind.You might get absolutely nothing for your money if someone you dont even know breaks the rules after the transaction. Whether we follow the rules or break them we are all at the mercy of CCP and the whims of the GMs.
GameNotzi

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Originally by: Alani Martinius

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Auch mich habt ihr schon mal erwischt - toll - - 450 Mill ISK.

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Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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I am hoping that with subscription 2.0 the RMT trade will diminish even further

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Originally by: Pooka

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Edited by: Pooka on 12/04/2008 17:46:10

HEY!!
7 pages and no one has asked a question about this: "Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money."
WHO? Which Corporations and did you ban them or not!!
I can guess which ones you are talking about.

CCP comment please.

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Originally by: Anatal Klep

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The blurb on RMT is one of the more disingenuous things I've read lately.

Problem 1: RMT fosters crime outside EVE. OK, but that is none of CCP's business. CCP is a game vendor, not Interpol. In addition, ISK buyers are not the bad guys and don't even know which sellers are bad guys. Caveat emptor.

Problem 2: RMT harms everyone because it messes up the EVE economy. CCP must have slept through Economics 101. This argument is rubbish because the inflation already exists due to cash cows in the game. To increase inflation the ISK must be spent and it doesn't matter if it is spent by the original ISK farmer or someone else making an RMT transfer payment. cash cow = inflation and RMT has nothing to do with that.

Problem 3: RMT encourages macro-play for ISK farming. True. But CCP could stop macro-play any time it wants with a few heuristics on player activities. The interesting question is: why doesn't CCP do that? CCP doesn't because...

Problem 4: ETC is Good -- for CCP! That's because CCP gets extra revenue from players who could not otherwise afford multiple accounts. So the ISK farming is allowed to ensure ETC purchases to finance those accounts through transfer payments from players who do have plenty of RM and want to buy their way into positions. But CCP doesn't get any revenue if those transfer payments are outside the game, so CCP tries to force all such RMT to be through ETCs by making ISK purchasers the bad guys.

[For the record: I don't buy ISK because I already make 9 figures a week trading and manufacturing -- without macros.]

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Originally by: Lab Technician071548

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In an effort to assist CCP in finding ISK sellers and macro players, I offer the following tip in the form of a question (Jeopardy, anyone?):
"How many people with legitimate game play in mind name their characters 'klajsdhgft?'"

Or, put another way in the form of a statement: "There exist heurisms for identifying unlikely letter combinations and characters with, say, 2 or more unlikely combinations or all numbers in their name should be targetted for EULA violation auditing."

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Originally by: marmitta

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allowing goons to pop people trying to make a meger living mining is BAD! The chinease macros will never be stopped, imagine if all those (jlkgerty) accounts were banned the number of players in eve would be cut in half aswell as CCP's bottom line in monthly income.. also the chinease macros are the only ones that pay a decent price for the GTC's so they can keep all there accounts named jlkgerty running. CCP needs to stop all the macros and the goons so peeps can carve out a living mining. making 50M a day mining then at the end of the day loosing your 200M mining ship.. its impossible for a new player to survive in this game with the current crap going on..

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Originally by: Anatal Klep

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Quote:

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Besides, what are they going to do about it? Appeal to a court and admit to breaking a EULA and enabling credit card fraud? Go to some other game? There's no other game like EVE out there to go to.

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Actually CCP could be taken to court. Banning ISK buyers is a blatant ploy to increase GTC revenues. As such it is a clear violation of US antitrust laws. CCP should talk to the officers of Neteller about whether having an offshore HQ is a safe haven. [Neteller's HQ is the Isle of Mann but they still ended up under arrest in NY. And Neteller has a lot more lawyers than CCP.]

Banning ISK buyers is CCP's prerogative. But if they do, then selling GTCs is illegal in the US.

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Originally by: Eleana Tomelac

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Originally by: Kuolematon

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Originally by: GM Grimmi

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Macro-mission runners is exactly what I mean. Sorry for the mix-up :)

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Intresting. You can run missions with macros? Hmm..

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Originally by: Thathys

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Jeesus am i tired of this discussion... Arrgh!!

Stop all Isk trading!! Or allow 1x30 day ETC for 30 days!

Some say it's good to be able to pay for game time with Isk,sure it's great.
So limit it to game time and not Isk stacking!!

If all players bought their game time with Isk,what would CCP earn then!!??

0:-

Or am i wrong?

ONLY WAY TO MAKE THE ISK PROBLEM GO AWAY,IS TO HAVE 100% HAPPY CUSTOMERS!!
Thats what we are,so put some effort into customer service and people will be loyal.

or maby i'm wrong.....

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Originally by: Pang Grohl

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Originally by: Anatal Klep

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Quote:

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Besides, what are they going to do about it? Appeal to a court and admit to breaking a EULA and enabling credit card fraud? Go to some other game? There's no other game like EVE out there to go to.

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Actually CCP could be taken to court. Banning ISK buyers is a blatant ploy to increase GTC revenues. As such it is a clear violation of US antitrust laws. CCP should talk to the officers of Neteller about whether having an offshore HQ is a safe haven. [Neteller's HQ is the Isle of Mann but they still ended up under arrest in NY. And Neteller has a lot more lawyers than CCP.]

Banning ISK buyers is CCP's prerogative. But if they do, then selling GTCs is illegal in the US.

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Ermmm... BS.
EVE, ISK, and all game materials are CCP's intellectual property. CCP holds exclusive rights to regulate everyone's use of these materials. CCP can take any legal measure to prevent other parties from profiting from their property. CCP can also make whatever agreements they like to license the use of their property in both commercial and non-commercial ways.

Time Codes are simply a way to sell subscription time.

CCP has chosen to allow subscribers to trade Time Codes for ISK, as a way to combat third parties using CCP's intellectual property for profit without appropriate license from CCP. CCP chose to create a method of trading ISK for Time Codes that eliminates scams when used, for the benefit of their customers.

When it comes to RMT, CCP can ignore it, or work to stop it. If CCP did nothing you would complain about spammers, farmers, and a runaway economic implosion.

P.S. Neteller was violating US laws, and their corporate officers were arrested in US territory.

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Originally by: Hokage Jiraiya

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Originally by: Anatal Klep

Actually CCP could be taken to court. Banning ISK buyers is a blatant ploy to increase GTC revenues. As such it is a clear violation of US antitrust laws. CCP should talk to the officers of Neteller about whether having an offshore HQ is a safe haven. [Neteller's HQ is the Isle of Mann but they still ended up under arrest in NY. And Neteller has a lot more lawyers than CCP.

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Banning ISK buyers is CCP's prerogative. But if they do, then selling GTCs is illegal in the US.

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Ermmm... BS.
EVE, ISK, and all game materials are CCP's intellectual property. CCP holds exclusive rights to regulate everyone's use of these materials. CCP can take any legal measure to prevent other parties from profiting from their property. CCP can also make whatever agreements they like to license the use of their property in both commercial and non-commercial ways.

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