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Pringlescan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.15 04:13:00 -
[1]
Ive been flying a widow for about 4 months or so, and Id imagine I'm one of maybe one or two dozen who use it in 0.0 space, and as such I am uniquely qualified to talk about how well its doing and what changes need to be done to get people to use them.
I am in Goonfleet, and I am the only one using any sort of black ops battleship at all in our "Black Ops Squadron" which is devoted to flying around enemy hostile systems for months at a time and for which it seems like the Black Ops Battleships should be made for. However they have largely failed to meet the the expcetaction of quality that one would expect of a ship that requires so many sp, and isk to fly.
I request that the following changes be made.
1, The Fuel-Bay - This would be a good start to making it more useable but im worried that there won't be enough room even with this. The problem is that in order to move my gang of say ten recons for a 3ly (average jump) its going to cost around 500 istopes per recon per ly (a falcon for example is 606 per/ly) and this is WITH jump portal operation 4. With the current system I can only carry around 3250 istopes with my ammo which means that out of the 10 recons I can only send 2-3 of them. Let me carry the equivalent of 5k isotopes (750 m^3) in the fuelbay and I could actually fulfill the role.
2, Make Covert Cynos Work in Cyno-Jammed systems - In order to have a covert cyno you had to have someone waste over a million sp training up cyno 5 a skill that is worthless for anything other then this. Making it so that the cyno only lasts 30 seconds and uses 5 lo is a fairly decent return on those SP, but the general plan of most alliances these days in 0.0 is to cyno jam EVERY SYSTEM. I can't even use my widow half the time and its only going to get worse as more and more towers get put up. How am I supposed to plant "reconnaissance and espionage forces in enemy territory" if every single system in enemy territory is cyno jammed? In another 4 months the widow will just be a glorified stealth bomber.
3, Buff Them - In your live dev blog you admitted that they came pre-nerfed to have them avoid being the uberships. Heres what I think each ship needs to get buffed
Widow - Hopefully all of them but at LEAST one, -A bonus to rate of fire maybe up to 7.5%, the dps on the widow is very subpar when you consider they can't use drones when they are engaging from 100km away - a bonus to ecm jammer strength up to 25%, why does the most expensive and skill intensive ship in the game not have the best jammer strength?
Sin - The biggest problem with the sin is that it would lose to a t1 version of itself. Come on CCP thats pretty pathetic for a ship you're spending half a billion for. It would be nice to get some gallente specced hopefuls to comment on how to bring the sin up to par but maybe change the drone bonus to a hybrid ranged bonus instead so it can actually engage.
Panther, Redeemer Don't know enough about them to speculate but anybody who does is feel free to post with what they think should be changed.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.15 07:43:00 -
[2]
Fuel bay (mentioned in live devblog) would be indeed pretty good start. As far as other boosts go I would like to see ability to extend it's jump range over the current max 4.5 ly as 4.5 ly is not quite enough to deploy stuff into hostile territory, especially if one has to sniff around until he finds cyno jammer free system (or at least ability to use covert cynos in jammed systems).
Would not even mind if I would have to train few more months to fit some 'hard to fit' module that consumes some relatively expencive fuel to extend max bridge/jump range.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.04.15 08:14:00 -
[3]
I am about to purchase my first Sin and oh wow, am I REALLY holding out for some updating on this ship.
Let's hit these points:
HP: omg lol, the Sin has virtually no HP whatsoever. It has about 3/4 of the HP a Dominix has, and it doesn't even have tech 2 resistances to show for it. 45% kinetic over 35% kinetic armor resist? GEE THANKS. Guess I won't need to add an Explosive hardener /sarcasm
Shield Recharge Time: This sticks out like a sore thumb. 3125 base shield recharge vs 2500 is ridiculous. While I know that Gallente do not shield tank, when you have somewhat decent support skills in that department it helps to have the recharge time as an added "buffer" into armor. Come on.
Sensor Strength: Same as tech 1, cmon.
Ship Bonuses: A move-while-cloaked bonus is nice, but if you're going to slap a cloak on the damned thing then give it a sensor recalibration bonus instead of an agility bonus. Space whales do not need an agility bonus, but they DO need to be able to lock things.
Skill Requirements: These are fine ^_^
Fitting Slots: I'm not sure how to approach this one. A 7/6/5 on a Domi wouldn't be so terrible, but Dominixes with their overly horrible grid don't need more highslots.. they need more lowslots. If you put the resistances up to a reasonable tech 2 level and then buffed out their lowslots you could turn the Sin into a veritable tanking machine, capable of holding up long enough to deliver any sort of payload before its expensive shell pops. Not only are the fittings sub-par, but the actual grid got REDUCED by 200. I struggle like crazy trying to fit out Dominixes and if you're going to give me an extra highslot then give me more grid. OR give me a friggin' lowslot to tank with.
The Sin seems like a ship that could be so much more, but instead it is a weak Dominix that is in serious need of buffing on all fronts. 4 turrets, 7 highs? They aren't Marauders, CCP. I would like to see that extra turret base on the hull used though. If anyone is crazy enough to fit a gank-Sin I'd be fairly happy to see it :)
Sin needs fixing! 
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Plave Okice
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.04.15 08:26:00 -
[4]
I'm all for good sized fuel bay, increased jump range and the ability to jump into cyno jammed systems. Then they could operate as the description says they can.
I'm against however any increase of the Black Ops offensive combat abilities, that could potentially be too much, large numbers of damage dealing BS jumping into systems takes it too far. Certainly more tank and/or more ewar based bonuses wouldn't go amiss.
The main boost they need is the removal of every pilot appearing in local. |
Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.04.15 08:39:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Pringlescan
Sin - The biggest problem with the sin is that it would lose to a t1 version of itself. Come on CCP thats pretty pathetic for a ship you're spending half a billion for. It would be nice to get some gallente specced hopefuls to comment on how to bring the sin up to par but maybe change the drone bonus to a hybrid ranged bonus instead so it can actually engage.
While I agree that the Sin (badly) needs a buff, please don't touch the drone bonus. This thing was made to use sentry drones, and with t2 sentries does pretty ok ranged damage.
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Pliauga
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Posted - 2008.04.15 11:13:00 -
[6]
Agreed on the fuel bay, point.
As I don't know much about any other black op, but the Sin, i'll just concentrate on that.
So here we go:
It's Tech 2 BS made by Creodron for crying out loud, and based on the Dominix. Under NO circumstances should it loose out to the Dominix, and it SHOULD be the Uber drone carrier (subcapital) in game, that drone bay bonus does not seem to be so helpfull. A little bump in drones bonuses would be really nice. And I really wouldn't mind loosing the large hybrid turret bonus at all (Creodron ship, drone emphasis, remember?).
If you, however, feel that the "Black ops" ships should not be able to tank too well (which would be understandable), at least give more punch to compensate for that. And yes, I know, the ability to operate stealth is a very good tactical bonus, but I don't think it's enough, a covert ops cloak would fix that though.
I do agree however that the black op class can't become the "super BS", they are meant for a specific role, so let them fill it, either though brute force, or through special abilities.
In conclusion:
1) make the Sin better than the Dominix in a head to head situation . Not by much though.
2) give "Black op" ships decent abilities, make the fuell bay double or tripple size of the current cargohold, or reduce the fuell consumption. This thing is supposed to be meant for long walks DEEP in enemy teritory.
3) covert ops cloak plz, if they get that, I wouldn't even mind a slight nerf.
Once again, I hope my thoughts were of any use.
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Rabid Rich
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Posted - 2008.04.15 11:18:00 -
[7]
in practice the scan resolution penalty of the improved cloak is the major gimping factor in their combat use. this is as important as the jump fuel bay.
ofc extra damage and gfitting is always nice but it becomes a distant 3rd behind the lock time and fuel use issues.
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Pringlescan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.15 23:13:00 -
[8]
Thanks for all the comments about the ships. I had thought too about raising the ly range but I had initially thought the fuel cost would be too prohibitive to be of much use although with the fuel bay it would become more viable.
Naturally of course I don't expect all the changes to be made (although it would be nice) but I want to iterate that for operating in 0.0 fixing it so covert cynos work in cyno jammed systems is essential because in enemy territory practically all the systems have cyno jammers in them and it simply isn't practical to take them down even if they are undefended.
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gordon cain
Minmatar
x13
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Posted - 2008.04.15 23:15:00 -
[9]
Cant believe it but im agreeing with a goon 8)
My panther is atm holding in Jita and everyday I consider selling it.
1. Fuel bay is a great idea. Should be able to hold isotopes ONLY so it cant be filled with cap boosters and other crap.
2. Best idea I have heard for a long time. This is what they are supposed to be used for.
3. They need a little love. No idea about other than the Panther but its almost impossible to find a descent fit unless you always now exactly what you are up against. I must admit that the widow is a sweet support boat and I'm hoping that the other s boat will be able to fulfill their intended roles.
Nice post.
Gordon Cain
Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. |
fireraven
The Singularity Amalgamation
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 09:58:00 -
[10]
#1 agreed- but problem solved by making the cruisers carry fuel int here cargo holds drop a can have em trow all there fuel in the can before bridging out get em to carry hwo much they use and you will have a full cargo worth of fuel after jumping every one to cyno.
#2 stop crying- you got 4k member go take out the cyno jammer. besides ccp did not make this to be the ganker dream ship its a role ship if they want to do that give me about 2 days to play with the code let me load it up on the live sever during dt and ill have a gank mobile that will make very one wine about over powering em .
#3 nothing wrong with here damage they work fine get more then 20m sp and omg use tech 2 i know somewhere in the goon fleet rules thats a nono but it buff's them up a ton maybe start trying it with other ships and i think you will enjoy it.
SOME MUST BE TOLD OTHERS MUST BE SHOWN |
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.16 11:44:00 -
[11]
DISCLOSURE: I do not fly Black Ops nor am I involved in any 0.0 Alliance stuff. The following is just written as a citizen of EVE and a perception of how balance works. Flame me based on that.
CCP has already said they will sort the fuel bay issue (either giving it a dedicated fuel bay or upping their cargo). I have no idea how much but presumably this will be sorted and I expect soon(ish).
Making Covert Cynos work in Cyno-Jammed systems makes a lot of sense. That or CCP should somehow seriously nerf what sounds like crazy spammage of Cyno-Jammers. Even so seems like the Black Ops should be able to get in there...it's their job afterall.
That said I have to disagree with the notion that Black Ops ships should be the equivalent or more of their "normal" cousins DPS/Tank wise. Doubly so if you fit them with a Covert-Ops cloak and include that in a buff. Surely you all can see that would be unbalancing. Essentially a battleship with all that comes with it damage/tank wise (and maybe more as some suggest) plus cloaking plus cyno abilities? Bit over the top sounds to me although I can see why you would like one.
I don't care if it takes more skill and money. 500 mil would be cheap for such a ship.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Waxau
The Fated
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 11:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
DISCLOSURE: I do not fly Black Ops nor am I involved in any 0.0 Alliance stuff. The following is just written as a citizen of EVE and a perception of how balance works. Flame me based on that.
CCP has already said they will sort the fuel bay issue (either giving it a dedicated fuel bay or upping their cargo). I have no idea how much but presumably this will be sorted and I expect soon(ish).
Making Covert Cynos work in Cyno-Jammed systems makes a lot of sense. That or CCP should somehow seriously nerf what sounds like crazy spammage of Cyno-Jammers. Even so seems like the Black Ops should be able to get in there...it's their job afterall.
That said I have to disagree with the notion that Black Ops ships should be the equivalent or more of their "normal" cousins DPS/Tank wise. Doubly so if you fit them with a Covert-Ops cloak and include that in a buff. Surely you all can see that would be unbalancing. Essentially a battleship with all that comes with it damage/tank wise (and maybe more as some suggest) plus cloaking plus cyno abilities? Bit over the top sounds to me although I can see why you would like one.
I don't care if it takes more skill and money. 500 mil would be cheap for such a ship.
Allowing covert cynos to work in cyno jammed systems make no sense tbh. Any gang that you get together in the target system via the covert cyno, can be done with gates. And good luck if you plan on taking out the jammer with that force :P
If Jammers do need to be fixed, then allowing covert cynos to work does nothing, but creates another little issue.
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Jarne
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
Star Buccaneers
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Posted - 2008.04.16 12:08:00 -
[13]
The Widow already has not the single best, but the best Jammer strength in the game (bonus-wise). It's as good as the Recon and Electronic Warfare ships that focus solely on ECM jamming. It even has one more low slot and one more med slot, so I would say regarding jam strength it beats all other ECM ships when dedicated exclusively to jamming. 25% bonus would give it a jam strength of 17 (without rigs), which is like permajamming 8 BCs...!? Sounds like too much for me.
And regarding to Cyno Jammers: If you can get every gang that can use a covert cyno into the cyno jammed system via the gates anyway, and if such a gang likely is not capable of taking out the cyno jammer, then why not allow to make a covert cyno in a jammed system in the first place?
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Success=Achievements/Expectations
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2008.04.16 13:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Waxau
Allowing covert cynos to work in cyno jammed systems make no sense tbh. Any gang that you get together in the target system via the covert cyno, can be done with gates. And good luck if you plan on taking out the jammer with that force :P
Again I am not practiced in this stuff but my sense of it is that getting by a gate may indeed be difficult to impossible without a massive force in many cases.
Further, while the force the Black Ops brings may not be able to take down the Cyno tower I am not sure that is what they are meant to do even in theory. I thought their concept was to be able to get a smallish raiding force behind enemy lines. If they have all their pilots blobbed on a gate a Black Ops raiding force may be able to roam behind the lines and interdict their miners or ratters or whatever. But if they cannot possibly get in nearly anywhere with a wall of cyno jammers all over then what use can they serve? Go get your blob and meet their blob and leave the Black Ops docked.
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"Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Matrixcvd
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.16 14:41:00 -
[15]
I don't fly them but i want to some day
1. Increase fuel capacity
2. Increase Jump Range
3. Give it Covert Ops cloaking
4. Allow Covert Cyno to open in Cyno Jammed Systems
1 and 2 are obvious. 3 Wouldn't overpower the ship but give it great versatility to do its thing in system, warping cloaked should be a must. 4 makes perfect sense. The true purpose of a cyno jammer is to prevent capitals from jumping into a system to "quickly" dispatch POSs. A BO jumping in recons is not on the same threat level and would be wasting their collective time shooting a jammer and die horribly.
This allows small gangs to go roaming behind enemy lines. I was so excited when i saw the introduction of these ships only to have my hopes pre-nerfed... do the right thing and make these ships worth it!
Give small gang PVP a boost for once
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Pringlescan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.17 02:47:00 -
[16]
I don't know we might take out those 30 gun deathstars with out ten man remote rep pilgrim gang
But for working in 0.0 black ops won't even be able to operate in another three months as people just plop down cyno jammers in every system, and its not like when I find an isk farmer ratting in a system I can go and my recon alt take the time to knock down a 1mn hp module and then go after him. |
mamolian
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.04.17 12:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
I don't fly them but i want to some day
1. Increase fuel capacity
2. Increase Jump Range
3. Give it Covert Ops cloaking
4. Allow Covert Cyno to open in Cyno Jammed Systems
1 and 2 are obvious. 3 Wouldn't overpower the ship but give it great versatility to do its thing in system, warping cloaked should be a must. 4 makes perfect sense. The true purpose of a cyno jammer is to prevent capitals from jumping into a system to "quickly" dispatch POSs. A BO jumping in recons is not on the same threat level and would be wasting their collective time shooting a jammer and die horribly.
This allows small gangs to go roaming behind enemy lines. I was so excited when i saw the introduction of these ships only to have my hopes pre-nerfed... do the right thing and make these ships worth it!
Give small gang PVP a boost for once
Agreed..
Personally I'd love to see little empire corps of 15 people having the ability to bridge their stealthbomber/cov ops frig/recon gang deep into the heart of enemy territory with the help of a black ops.. AND have the fuel to go home again.. This should be the ultimate grief ship for enabling small gangs to disrupt enemy isk making abilities. Ideally then I'd like to see these ships having the fuel bays to bridge a 15 man gang the equivalent of 20+ lightyears.
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Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.04.17 13:57:00 -
[18]
I have whined about these horribly designed ships for a long time, i want a redeemer, a cloak able bs that i can use for pew pew(that so happens to be a dark armageddon MMMM)but because of all the strange powers that come with the ship, it has become silly expensive!
My idea was originally to make the ships ALOT cheaper (200 mill or sumeting, maybe even less, it is uninsurable after all) by removing all their powers besides the "im a big stealth bomber" thing, so no cyno or jump power
Then introduce a new sort of "black ops industrial" with all the powers you suggest the old black ops get, big fuel\cargo bay for supplies and effective jumping and cyno abilities, but no offensive power, this ship could be quite expensive, as you are not supposed to bring it into combat.
Then you get a "expendable" (face it, you will lose your cloak bs if you actually engage anything)covert fire support ship, and a logistics black ops that can actually do logistic work
Am i stupid or is this not a good plan?
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.04.17 14:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
I don't fly them but i want to some day
1. Increase fuel capacity
2. Increase Jump Range
3. Give it Covert Ops cloaking
4. Allow Covert Cyno to open in Cyno Jammed Systems
1 and 2 are obvious. 3 Wouldn't overpower the ship but give it great versatility to do its thing in system, warping cloaked should be a must. 4 makes perfect sense. The true purpose of a cyno jammer is to prevent capitals from jumping into a system to "quickly" dispatch POSs. A BO jumping in recons is not on the same threat level and would be wasting their collective time shooting a jammer and die horribly.
This allows small gangs to go roaming behind enemy lines. I was so excited when i saw the introduction of these ships only to have my hopes pre-nerfed... do the right thing and make these ships worth it!
Give small gang PVP a boost for once
agreed too
personally dont like much the idea to make them good combat ships, they role is different, if they had no jump drive/jump portal then yes but the way they are designed is not necessary
personally i see them eventually more inclined to support trying to stay out of the heart of battle, so i will prefer bonuses to EW to eventually help spec ops comrades something like
widow -> ecm
sin -> sensor damps
reedemer -> tracking disr
phanter -> webber (note not TP as it is totally useless here for obvious reasons)
said that cover ops groups kinda lack an "heavy hitter ship" maybe a t2 BC can do that givin to these groups the punch they lack and keeping the black op more as a bridger/support
also personally i think something have to be done to local too but thats another issue and discussion :P |
Pringlescan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 05:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Matrixcvd
I don't fly them but i want to some day
1. Increase fuel capacity
2. Increase Jump Range
3. Give it Covert Ops cloaking
4. Allow Covert Cyno to open in Cyno Jammed Systems
1 and 2 are obvious. 3 Wouldn't overpower the ship but give it great versatility to do its thing in system, warping cloaked should be a must. 4 makes perfect sense. The true purpose of a cyno jammer is to prevent capitals from jumping into a system to "quickly" dispatch POSs. A BO jumping in recons is not on the same threat level and would be wasting their collective time shooting a jammer and die horribly.
This allows small gangs to go roaming behind enemy lines. I was so excited when i saw the introduction of these ships only to have my hopes pre-nerfed... do the right thing and make these ships worth it!
Give small gang PVP a boost for once
agreed too
personally dont like much the idea to make them good combat ships, they role is different, if they had no jump drive/jump portal then yes but the way they are designed is not necessary
personally i see them eventually more inclined to support trying to stay out of the heart of battle, so i will prefer bonuses to EW to eventually help spec ops comrades something like
widow -> ecm
sin -> sensor damps
reedemer -> tracking disr
phanter -> webber (note not TP as it is totally useless here for obvious reasons)
said that cover ops groups kinda lack an "heavy hitter ship" maybe a t2 BC can do that givin to these groups the punch they lack and keeping the black op more as a bridger/support
also personally i think something have to be done to local too but thats another issue and discussion :P
I don't know about all that but it needs a buff.
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Maraleith
Gallente
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.04.20 07:48:00 -
[21]
And the balancing weaknesses of all these proposals is .......... nothing.
More dps, more ewarfare capability, capability to avoid defensive networks, warp while cloaked, tech 2 tanks; where is the downside? Where is the risk?
Your post implies that you want an uber pwnmobile that basically cannot be detected, cannot be tackled, gives you virtually impunity to roam around enemy systems without risk, killing anyone in those systems caught alone without risking anything.
Basically, you want it all and you won't get it. You may get warp while cloaked, you may get a cargo bay increase, you may even get jumping into cyno jammed systems; but more dps and more ewar is game breaking.
Basically, you want the uber untouchable griefmobile and no, you shouldn't be allowed to have it.
If anything, with all the pluses you should be given, you should have less dps and weaker sensor strengths so you have to fight real close risking your billion isk ship to engage. Then the risk reward ratio is much more scary. Yes, you can wreak carnage, but if you are not careful, you're gonna die.
That's the way is ought to be too.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2008.04.20 12:17:00 -
[22]
Maraleith, just two points:
1. The risk/reward model are forgotten by CCP long time ago. It is more profitable to sit in empire mining Veldspar nowadays.
2. We do NOT speaking about giving EVERYTHING to one ship.
Fuel bay obviously required. It is in empire You can dock in the next system and wait for fuel. In 0-0 stations are rare and You may be out of supply for months literally. You need at least a chance to go back home. But now You can't even leave home.
Ability to jump in cynojammed systems discussed before and if You read it carefully, You will agree it is not intended to stop roaming gangs, but to prevent quick cyno-in capitals.
Now to the personal combat abilities. I would like to agree that Black Ops should not be another marauders with cloaking device. In their specific role, bonus to EWar range seems more logical than bonus to any kind of damage dealing. You can bring enough hard hitters with You - stealth bombers will do the work just fine, if You have enough EWar to protect them in first place. Following that, issue with low overall tanking ability will be decreased due to EWar bonuses.
And to the CovOps cloaking device... when bonus to damage dealing will be replaced with EWar range bonuses, You'll not be able to solopwn anyone.
So You get Your downside in the high skill intencity, literal inability to fly solo and fragile design, comparing to real beasts.
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Thanks CCP for cu |
Pringlescan
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.20 18:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Maraleith
And the balancing weaknesses of all these proposals is .......... nothing.
More dps, more ewarfare capability, capability to avoid defensive networks, warp while cloaked, tech 2 tanks; where is the downside? Where is the risk?
Your post implies that you want an uber pwnmobile that basically cannot be detected, cannot be tackled, gives you virtually impunity to roam around enemy systems without risk, killing anyone in those systems caught alone without risking anything.
Basically, you want it all and you won't get it. You may get warp while cloaked, you may get a cargo bay increase, you may even get jumping into cyno jammed systems; but more dps and more ewar is game breaking.
Basically, you want the uber untouchable griefmobile and no, you shouldn't be allowed to have it.
If anything, with all the pluses you should be given, you should have less dps and weaker sensor strengths so you have to fight real close risking your billion isk ship to engage. Then the risk reward ratio is much more scary. Yes, you can wreak carnage, but if you are not careful, you're gonna die.
That's the way is ought to be too.
Maralieth who the heck are you talking to? It seems like you combined everyones individual plan for buffing into one big superplan and then yelled at the hypothetical person suggesting it.
Also your points are horrible and ill thought out, Because we spent the time training for 6 months and spending over half a billion of isk uninsurable putting a loss equal to an insured capital we should have battleships that can't kill anything?
Its painfully obvious that you have never spent more then a day in 0.0 and have never tryed to use black ops battleships for their stated description in the game.
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Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:04:00 -
[24]
Creating a black ops industrial with all the logistic power a stealth pilot would desire would help resolve the whole situation, no more bickering about how broken things might become, it will be essentially harmless
Now the combat black ops would need to be revamped into a focused ship, either an expensive HAB(heavy assault battleship)gank mobile, a cheap mega stealth bomber (I favour the cheap SB alternative), or a large halfa55 ewar\fire support platform
The current Black ops lineup is so bad that a total remake would be best really.
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:04:00 -
[25]
Nice post, jumping into a cyno-jammed system would be a major cog for this ship to be worth it. To me "black ops" is jumping into a locked down system and harassing the locals. Thats basically all a bunch of recons can do anyways. I'm training thru black ops line now for the express reason to run this recon type of pvp.
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Aequitas Veritas
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 07:04:00 -
[26]
Hey
That logistical carrier isnt that dumb of an idea tbh. Would be so pwn tbh to have a industrial covert that can move the jumpbridge around and the battleships fulfilled a combat purpose only and cost less than they do today.
Beside that, giving them t2 resists and fixing fuelbay would do a lot for these ships. I dont dare to dream about a covert ops cloak though :(
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
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Matrixcvd
Caldari
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 13:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Maraleith
And the balancing weaknesses of all these proposals is .......... nothing.
More dps, more ewarfare capability, capability to avoid defensive networks, warp while cloaked, tech 2 tanks; where is the downside? Where is the risk?
Your post implies that you want an uber pwnmobile that basically cannot be detected, cannot be tackled, gives you virtually impunity to roam around enemy systems without risk, killing anyone in those systems caught alone without risking anything.
Basically, you want it all and you won't get it. You may get warp while cloaked, you may get a cargo bay increase, you may even get jumping into cyno jammed systems; but more dps and more ewar is game breaking.
Basically, you want the uber untouchable griefmobile and no, you shouldn't be allowed to have it.
If anything, with all the pluses you should be given, you should have less dps and weaker sensor strengths so you have to fight real close risking your billion isk ship to engage. Then the risk reward ratio is much more scary. Yes, you can wreak carnage, but if you are not careful, you're gonna die.
That's the way is ought to be too.
 where did I say buff the damage, EWAR, Tank? Again, I don't fly these things but all I suggested was to make it more usable for 1 purpose, to bring recon gangs deeper, easier and more effectively inside enemy territory, the cov ops still has to get there but now, instead of just some afk cloaker, you could have to be very careful about what your doing and the terror this could spread would be incredible
The reality of the situation is that if these ships get these types of BUFFs, nobody is going to engage in combat with it anyway, it will sit there cloaked up and wait, even if it couldnt warp cloaked. The Cov cloak would just allow the BO to bring the fight strategically which i think would be awesome and the only time it would be in danger.
Once the recon gang is in and had its fun, it will want to get home quickly and as safe as possible. they arent gonna put the BO on the front lines to watch it get popped and then no safe route home... no kills for the smart BO pilot, so there is no pwning done by the BO, think of it as a log pilot
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motomysz
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:30:00 -
[28]
Add a role bonus that makes a cloak not affect scan resolution, please.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:23:00 -
[29]
- Buff cargobay/seperate fuelbay.
- Remove Scan resolution penalty for fitting a cloak.
- Longer jumprange.
As much I would like it to have a covert cloak, I would not trade it for less damage.
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Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:11:00 -
[30]
I did fly it, and OMG what a waste of isk and time....this ships wore made useless before they wore ever released cause of there high cost and low efficiency...
Originally by: Matrixcvd
1. Increase fuel capacity
2. Increase Jump Range
3. Give it Covert Ops cloaking
4. Allow Covert Cyno to open in Cyno Jammed Systems
I can support all of this changes, i think one Black Ops should be able to support a mixed recon/bomber fleet of lets say 10 ships i would allow this for sevrel jumps. On the subject of having this work for months of the time, well you are going to need a hauler i dont support 20-30-40 jumps with a black ops but i would like to see idears of how a black ops gang would work and interact with lets say a T2 hauler...
I would like to see the option of having the big T2 hauler, move with the gang but with some big limitations (god knows what this should be like)...
Anyway in the case of the Widow (im a widow pilote) and i can not support additional jamming power nor can i support additional damage for the ships. In my view this ships are not ment to be the solo pown ships that some people want them to be.
Black Ops is mostely a recon gang support ship, and i think it should stay like that. Comparing them to there T1 counterparts is both good and bad.
On the subject of HP, sensor strength ect. well yes it would say it should be bether this ships are the highest and most advanced that have ever been produced in the universe...
On the subject of firepower well, as i sayed this are not solo pown mobiles, comparing there firepower to there T1 counterpart isnt entirely fair as when you make a ship like this you have to sacrofize something...in this case they crammed a couple of Capital modules onto a none capital ship....i mean they had to find all that extra space some where....
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