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Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
3
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Posted - 2012.02.28 15:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I admit that I am not really in any sort of position to actually make a sound judgement of this, but it does seem like force projection is rather easy in Eve. Maybe to easy?
I have seen it discussed every now and then, but never in a single thread. (if it exists you may point me in that direction).
What would be the pro's and con's of make force projection much harder? |
Darth Tickles
Northstar Cabal
Fatal Ascension
31
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Posted - 2012.02.28 15:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
yes |
Chiggy W
Hard-Luck Industries
52
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Posted - 2012.02.28 15:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Very much yes.
Suppose I should elaborate on my answer.
If you look at the current Sov map, there are 4 major powers that dominate most of the map. Someone that lives in the south of fountain can be in Northern branch in a matter of minutes via JB and titan bridges. PL regularly move's their supercap fleet across multiple regions in a matter of moments (they recently killed 2 Supers 3 regions apart in under 8 minutes).
While all of this takes logistical effort (keeping bridges fueled, placing Cynos in midpoints) once you have it organised it's very easy to respond to anything that goes on anywhere in Eve. This isn't a good thing for warfare for many different reasons
1. Too easy to be an AFK landlord. You can be in the far south but if something happens in the north you can react in under 30 minutes
2. Harder for small alliances to carve out a niche. Large alliance's can react too quickly. The only way to realistically hold space as a minor alliance is to rent or base out of NPC.
3. Has lead to large bluefests.
4. Again back to the AFK holder argument, PL holds many moons in the North, but is rarely seen there. If those moons got attacked PL would be back there in no time, squash the assault and be back in the south before -A- could say "where did they go". This is wrong (not what PL does, but that game mechanics allow it). Deploying somewhere should take time, should be risky (I'm down here so my stuff in the north is unprotected) and you shouldn't be able to run back and forth on a whim. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
294
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 15:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:I admit that I am not really in any sort of position to actually make a sound judgement of this, but it does seem like force projection is rather easy in Eve. Maybe to easy?
I have seen it discussed every now and then, but never in a single thread. (if it exists you may point me in that direction).
What would be the pro's and con's of make force projection much harder?
Wormholes are fun, and more dynamic than 0.0 (at least in my humble opinion...) because of their very limits.
So I guess I would say yes.
Caveat: Never having been in a Sov Holding Alliance/Corp/Space other than to shoot at people, so...
/pantsonhead?
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online:
No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
MeestaPenni
New Republic Krayt
The 99 Percent
178
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 15:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote: but it does seem like force projection is rather easy in Eve. Maybe to easy?
Easy to focus in as much as where to focus the force. Station, gate, or POS.....focus. I think it stifles tactical initiative.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
5
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Posted - 2012.02.28 15:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cons?
It was too hard to claim sov when already very large alliances had already taken it, the player base complained and CCP made it easier. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
327
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 16:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
When they introduced freighters they made them sluggish, slow warping and unable to be fit, in order to counter their potential ability to make logistics easy mode.
Then they forgot this sane principle and introduced easy mode mass travelling everywhere. Result: death of smaller entities, streamlining of logistics, high velocity-to-market for goods and as result, no drive to perform low level industry in sov nullsec.
Also, due to this ease of going everywhere, huge NAPs became convenient.
Covering many "battle objectives" (rare moons) became too easy (no over-stretching risk) so they go in the hands of fewer alliances that thus become super powerful.
LittleTerror wrote:Cons?
It was too hard to claim sov when already very large alliances had already taken it, the player base complained and CCP made it easier.
And then? It's still the same. The very large alliances need to be internally disbanded by a spy or have to forget paying bills or really be BAD (won't make names...) to see them go down.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Calfis
The Dark Tribe
Against ALL Authorities
55
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Posted - 2012.02.28 16:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Chiggy W wrote:Very much yes.
4. Again back to the AFK holder argument, PL holds many moons in the North, but is rarely seen there. If those moons got attacked PL would be back there in no time, squash the assault and be back in the south before -A- could say "where did they go". This is wrong (not what PL does, but that game mechanics allow it). Deploying somewhere should take time, should be risky (I'm down here so my stuff in the north is unprotected) and you shouldn't be able to run back and forth on a whim.
Confirming that a variation of this has actually happened. |
Rixiu
SnowNiggs.
102
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 16:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
To easy? Maybe.
To cheap? Most definatly.
Moving titans and supercaps all over eve daily should come at a high price. Hence their fuel requirements need to be upped significantly. |
Liam Mirren
297
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 16:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
It is, that's why 0.0 is stagnant and boring as fck.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
My guides: http://mirren.freeforums.org |
knobber Jobbler
Seniors Clan
Get Off My Lawn
38
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Posted - 2012.02.28 17:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chiggy W wrote:. Deploying somewhere should take time, should be risky (I'm down here so my stuff in the north is unprotected) and you shouldn't be able to run back and forth on a whim.
It does if you're small fry or don't have carriers. As soon as you have enough members for cyno chains and you have carriers, deployment of an alliance to a low sec station or NPC null station takes minutes. As soon as you have a Titan, deployment of fleets is equally fast. And many corps now have Titans which are basically used for bridging and nothing else.
I don't think jump bridges should be changed, its a perk for owning space. I think Titan bridging needs to be looked at, Titan proliferation as well supercap travel in general needs review.
Part of the issue is BLOP's or lack of BLOP's as a viable form of force projection. Right now BLOP's is limited to expensive/risky SB deployments to support fleet battles and an expensive way of hot dropping people nullbearing. |
Serene Repose
Perkone
Caldari State
311
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Posted - 2012.02.28 17:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'd say it's as easy as what resistence you meet. As a sandbox, flat-footed it's all open for occupation (for the sake of discussion). Nothing prevents two or three people (with some effort just one) from using an industrial and a couple of T1 frigs to move into a null sec system and set up shop. That's force projection. There wouldn't be any point to make it anymore difficult than the training, purchases, cargo movement and construction involved.
The dynamics of the game allow other players to create the difficulty. If someone with ten guys, half a dozen cruisers and their own station decide to prevent this first group from establishing themselves, it forces the first group to exceed the force with which they are being met. Say (for discussion's sake) the first group does just that, recruits a few more guys, shifts to more, better armed ships, throws up a few defenses on their POS...second group responds in kind...arms race...tug of war...warfare.
The residual effect, of course, is as both groups escalate, they shop more. The market feels the boost from increased consumption and all is right with EVE. So. I'd have to say, if players want to make force projection difficult, they have but to resist the projection of someone's force. Where the difficulty in doing this may arise is how hard it is to pull together a competent group of people. How hard it is to get the group's focus on a single plan, and probably the worst is getting everyone in the group to fully participate however long it'll take to get established.
Once this is done (theoretically) things don't end there. It's the Pandora's Box. Your group 2 will either cease offering resistence due to difficulties both groups are experiencing, but which they can't overcome, or they'll continue to escalate thus continuing the need for group 1 to escalate. More people, more equipment, more warfare, more marketing...all is right in New Eden.
Your question is probably: How can "we" overcome the difficulty in pulling together a good group of people to effectively project force? If you've significantly established yourself safely in an area and you're finding no resistence, just keep expanding your borders till you bump into a neighbor, then try to take his/her holdings on the border there...I'm sure you'll get the difficulty you're after...or you'll get capitulation...expand again.
(According to Goonwaffle, they'll make life as difficult for you as you can stand. Just move in next door to them. Lovely neighbors. Really.)
NOW...if you're talking about hot-dropping fleets with impunity and no risk. Don't make me laugh. That part of the game is a joke. What's funny about it is, it's not the ONLY joke in the game. If you really want to find resistence, try to get CCP to back down on a brilliant idea they've dreamed up. Facts won't work. Fits won't work. The main reason for that is, they're playing the game, too. When they do these things they're implementing toys they want to play with. They really don't care about what we think, or what logic dictates, or what the facts bear out. Think of them as brats who never outgrew playing in their daddy's garage. Play the way they want, or they'll just pretend you're not there. Nyah.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
28
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Posted - 2012.02.28 17:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is something I quickly realized during my 0.0 years and I agree with the OP. Although, I was happy I could quickly join a fight and help my bodies one or even two regions away, it didn`t make sense to me. A galaxy should have this feeling of vastness and Eve doesn`t provide that. It probably explains why super coalitions dominate the game at the moment. There are many things that removes the "unrealistic" feeling of wanting to be in a sci-fi universe which CCP should consider looking into. That, even if it means pissing of GMs who mostly look into keeping the status quo. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
177
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
IBGDD
(In Before Goons Derail Discussion) |
Digital Messiah
Heroic Era
133
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
/signed /wrong thread location /good idea!
Honey badger for CSM Chairman!
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Enter a Heroic Era Today |
AureoBroker
Natural Inventions
Solyaris Chtonium
7
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Give supercaps a 2 jumps / day limit, and let's see what happens. |
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Flatline.
36
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Posted - 2012.02.28 18:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Power projection is the reason sov is broken atm. The largest blue balls in eve can be anywhere on the map within a matter of minutes, and people wonder why sov is stagnant. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 18:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
I could care less about the cyno trains but jump bridges even with their changes have caused null sec to become what it's become and have allowed large groups to control far too much space. JB's have turned null sec into what it is today and have dumbed the game down.
With out jump bridges null sec entities would have had to actually "use" their space and depend on it vs shipping everything in from high sec. Their removal would also pretty much end the power projection of most large groups and put things into the hands of more localized groups.
Combined with a limit on Titian bridge jumps to something similar to a clone jump and you would create a null sec where smaller groups could better compete for control in their localized areas. Much like you see in areas like Syndicate today.
This would also help end the tech moon hording that is going on today which allows these large groups to grow even larger. |
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
683
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 19:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:
What would be the pro's and con's of make force projection much harder?
Pro: People stay home because it takes 3 hours to position and maneuver for a possibly blue ball fight. Blue ball as in, orgasm denial. Because no one will show up.
Con: People actually play EVE and wage wars.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3317
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 19:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have to aggree eve is getting too small not enough choke points these days. What good are borders if they get go in anywhere within minutes? instead of smashing thier face though every single barricade you can try to throw up.
|
Calfis
The Dark Tribe
Against ALL Authorities
56
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Posted - 2012.02.28 20:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:
With out jump bridges null sec entities would have had to actually "use" their space and depend on it vs shipping everything in from high sec. Their removal would also pretty much end the power projection of most large groups and put things into the hands of more localized groups.
Even without jump bridges we still fly 30 to 50 jumps to defend our territory (our JB network was knocked out). |
Marlona Sky
EntroPrelatial Vanguard
EntroPraetorian Aegis
493
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 20:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
Traveling from one side of the galaxy to the other should take days, not minutes like it is now. When the fastest ship to travel across the map is a capital ship instead of an interceptor that just screams that power projection is severely broken.
|
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
31
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Posted - 2012.02.28 20:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Reduce the number of jumps allowed per day for ships with jump drive capability. Remove jump bridges. Remove regular gates so people need to fly between systems. Or slow down warp speeds to increase travel times. Remove local. Don`t forget to put full flaps down when landing in station...oh wait... |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
108
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Calfis wrote:Mutnin wrote:
With out jump bridges null sec entities would have had to actually "use" their space and depend on it vs shipping everything in from high sec. Their removal would also pretty much end the power projection of most large groups and put things into the hands of more localized groups.
Even without jump bridges we still fly 30 to 50 jumps to defend our territory (our JB network was knocked out).
Yes and that is the way it should be, because eventually you would get tired of flying those 30 to 50 jumps every time some new local group decided to take a stab at taking away your systems that you seem to want to hold for what ever reason that are 30 to 50 jumps away.
Eventually you would either have to break up your forces to defend each area or consolidate your forces into a more central area which would then allow a power vacuum for new or smaller groups to move into. Null sec is **** because of all you carebear jerk off blue everything for 5 regions in order to not have to worry about losing your ratting carriers and botting Tengus.
The current game mechanics make it far too easy for your NAP fests to exist, because anyone that threatens one your your blue balled buddies from this coalition or that one gets curb stomped because half of Null sec pounds their face in because it's no issue to move half way across the map to do so.
It should be a commitment to move super carriers or Titans around the map. |
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thanks for all the responses.
Who in the coming election for CSM is pro harder force projection?
And who is not? |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 21:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I could care less about the cyno trains but jump bridges even with their changes have caused null sec to become what it's become and have allowed large groups to control far too much space. JB's have turned null sec into what it is today and have dumbed the game down.
With out jump bridges null sec entities would have had to actually "use" their space and depend on it vs shipping everything in from high sec. Their removal would also pretty much end the power projection of most large groups and put things into the hands of more localized groups.
Hi. People use jump freighters to import from empire, not jump bridges. Or if you really do know of someone using jump bridges and regular freighters, you have yourself a sweet sweet ganking opportunity and you should go for it.
People don't make very much of their own stuff in nullsec because industry in nullsec is broken due to the bizarre limit of one outpost per system and racially segregated outposts that don't let you combine a decent factory with a decent refinery. This means you have to freight minerals through very dangerous space to produce things locally, at which point you might as well just use jump freighters to import from empire and save yourself a couple steps, or you'll get eaten alive by the person who does. I'm saying this as someone who would love to make more things in nullsec.
Jump bridges make travel less tedious. They're actually pretty limited otherwise.
If you would like to know more about what it's actually like in nullsec just let me know or ask ITT.
|
Vigo Carpath
Capsuleer Legions Of New Eden
GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
3
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Posted - 2012.02.28 21:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Mutnin wrote:I could care less about the cyno trains but jump bridges even with their changes have caused null sec to become what it's become and have allowed large groups to control far too much space. JB's have turned null sec into what it is today and have dumbed the game down.
With out jump bridges null sec entities would have had to actually "use" their space and depend on it vs shipping everything in from high sec. Their removal would also pretty much end the power projection of most large groups and put things into the hands of more localized groups. Hi. People use jump freighters to import from empire, not jump bridges. Or if you really do know of someone using jump bridges and regular freighters, you have yourself a sweet sweet ganking opportunity and you should go for it. People don't make very much of their own stuff in nullsec because industry in nullsec is broken due to the bizarre limit of one outpost per system and racially segregated outposts that don't let you combine a decent factory with a decent refinery. This means you have to freight minerals through very dangerous space to produce things locally, at which point you might as well just use jump freighters to import from empire and save yourself a couple steps, or you'll get eaten alive by the person who does. I'm saying this as someone who would love to make more things in nullsec. Jump bridges make travel less tedious. They're actually pretty limited otherwise. If you would like to know more about what it's actually like in nullsec just let me know or ask ITT.
That's a good point about outposts in null sec. Having multiple outposts in a system would be a great thing.
|
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
178
|
Posted - 2012.02.28 22:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Jump bridges make travel less tedious. They're actually pretty limited otherwise.
Right... limited...
My favourite part of this defense of the current state of force projection is the single argument that without the ability to fly to any part of New Eden at the drop of a hat, being forced to travel would be boring and people wouldn't do it.
News flash: that's the point.
If you can't be bothered to fly out 50 jumps away and gather a fleet to defend empty space, then maybe that space should be left to other players interested in null sec. You guys are the ones who are always trashing high-sec bears for not moving to null. Have you ever considered that maybe your ability to quickly pop in and out of empty null areas anytime some new players try to set up camp out there is part of the problem?
The rest of us are starting to figure that out. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 01:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
So your plan to take null space is to make it so worthless that nobody else wants it. |
Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 01:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Jump bridges make travel less tedious. They're actually pretty limited otherwise.
Right... limited... My favourite part of this defense of the current state of force projection is the single argument that without the ability to fly to any part of New Eden at the drop of a hat, being forced to travel would be boring and people wouldn't do it. News flash: that's the point. If you can't be bothered to fly out 50 jumps away and gather a fleet to defend empty space, then maybe that space should be left to other players interested in null sec. You guys are the ones who are always trashing high-sec bears for not moving to null. Have you ever considered that maybe your ability to quickly pop in and out of empty null areas anytime some new players try to set up camp out there is part of the problem? The rest of us are starting to figure that out.
Also you're dumb because that's not what jump bridges are used for, that's what Titans are used for. I was responding to someone who was actually dumb enough to say that jump bridges should be nerfed but he didn't care one way or the other about Titan bridging.
You just want to nerf jump bridges because you're too lazy to scout them out in advance. Keep crying about the big bad nullsec alliances that make you work to take and hold space. Send me pictures of your tears.
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