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Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:38:00 -
[31]
I have to say this seems like a whine thread.
The OP states that ECM drones are a problem, everyone uses them (not in my experience, which is extensive enough thanks), and they are broken.
He then goes on to state that he is changing his fittings to deal with them.
Erm....sorry, but....isn't that the POINT of EVE's flexibility in the first place? If someone fits a tool, you find and fit a counter.
And the whole idea of ECM being overpowered is ludicrous. In every single example given in this thread (and others), the Falcon is the ship mentioned. One of the ONLY ships that is INTENDED to be good at this (and nothing else!!), and one that just recently got boosted out of obscurity, so its more popular and more common.
Sorry, but your lack of ability to see the bigger picture does not constitute a game design issue. ECM is fine. It is only effective on boats that are designed for it.
You want to fix things?
1. Fix sensor damp boats, make them viable.
2. Improve tracking disruptor boats. Make them viable.
3. Get rid of target painting as a racial EWAR type (unimaginative). Introduce either missle disruption or drone disruption as the new Minnie ewar (carefully.....).
Buffs. Not nerfs.
ps. to be perfectly honest, it would make more sense for Minnie to have tracking disruption, and Amarr either missle (vs. minnie's secondary weapon) or drone (vs. Gallente secondary weapon), at least from a game history perspective. However, that'd mean folks having to cross train for ships they already own, which is never popular. Above way is simpler.
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This thread does not exist
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:43:00 -
[32]
This is not suppose to be ECM nerf thread.
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Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:50:00 -
[33]
True 'nuff, soz for the derail.
ECM drones are fine so long as there are reasonable counters. There are, so I dont see the problem.
There, happy?
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This thread does not exist
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:35:00 -
[34]
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:58:00 -
[35]
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones  . |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:24:00 -
[36]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:26:00
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:25:06
 Originally by: Corstaad
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones .
So in your testing did you also count the number of jams vs a target? Cause I did today.
Thorax vs my alts harbinger (16 sensor strength which is high compared to minmatar cruisers I admit).
Test lasted 16min.
I used 5 medium ECM drones.
Harbinger was fit 7 heavy beam, ab, ship scan, 3 heatsinks, 2 tracking enhancers, 1 DCU II
Total cycles: 48
Nr of successful jam cycles: 16
Nr of unsuccessful jam cycles: 32
Time jammed: 320 sec or 5min
Time not jammed: 640 sec or 10min.
Chance of jam: 16/48 = 1/3 = 33% Or once every minute. Which means that in general you wont get first jam with 5 medium ECM drones until after 40sec. note that EFT lists 5 med ecm drones chance to jam a harbinger to 38.5% fairly accurate indeed.
If this was my thorax vs my own thorax fighting, same fitting.
DPS ECM drones saved me from during these 16min: 124480
DPS damage drones would have done in these 16min: 151680
So why do I use ECM drones myeslf? Well if I am loosing / cant get close to a nanod target / etc, and get a jam cycle I can warp out.
Versatility > DPS
But in PvP performance 1v1 dps drones have advantage over ECM drones. Also once dps drones has aggrod ECM drones they go down quick.
ECM drones also enables you to have luck and take on targets you otherwise would have lost against. However you can also have bad luck and not get a jam for 2min during that time ure ECM drones should be dead.
Now you some might say that ECM drones are superior as it enables say 5 thorax to easy take down a battleship without him locking.
Interesting facts then
5 thorax global jam chance against a megathron: 84.3% according to quick fit
A blackbirds chance to jam a megathron with 5 multispecs: 88%
Switching one rax for a blackbird looses you 530 turret dps if they are fully gank fitted with full skills (unlikely)
The 4 thoraxes left uses dps drones and gets 632 more dps.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Corstaad
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones .
Racial ECCM stops 3 med + 2 light ECM combo from jamming my Hurricane during the entirety of a fight cs another BC. If you're using the right one
I sometimes load ECM drones (almost always on Cruisers), but I mostly prefer damage drones on larger ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:05:00 -
[38]
You got way to many random eft numbers so I have to disregard that. Like I said to begin this thread I use ECM drones. In fact every ship I have that has a drone bay uses them. I know how to deal with them as well. I'm pointing out that everyone atleast in my corner of low sec uses them. It would be nice to see abit of variety in people loadout lately. Also I try judge things from my seat not pvp videos.
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chinnychinchin
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:06:00 -
[39]
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:07:00 -
[40]
Its was a ruppy vs ruppy fight and he loaded a eccm instead of web which didn't do hardly anything.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:20:00 -
[41]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 09:23:49
Originally by: Corstaad
You got way to many random eft numbers so I have to disregard that. Like I said to begin this thread I use ECM drones. In fact every ship I have that has a drone bay uses them. I know how to deal with them as well. I'm pointing out that everyone atleast in my corner of low sec uses them. It would be nice to see abit of variety in people loadout lately. Also I try judge things from my seat not pvp videos.
Disregard facts and be subjective then. Don't expect anyone to take your whining seriously though.
And if EVERYONE uses them, why don't you just fit a smartbomb? 3 cycles (22.5sec) from a medium smartbomb -> medium ECM drones *pop*.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:33:00 -
[42]
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Corstaad
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
You do realize that the alternative is to spend *thousands* of tries figuring out what the reality is? If that feels more comfortable to you, keep your ignorant stance.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
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[Video] Angel of War |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:09:28
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:06:06
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:02:25
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
Or you could view it this way:
They only offer an advantage if the ship attacked has more then 474 dps in turrets/misslies. Cause then the damage mitigated through ECM will exceed what you lost not using dps drones. This is against cruiser sized targets.
So they are actually more overpowered against high dps ships relying on turrets or missiles for damage then against ships with lower dps, tougher tanks and more drone dps.
Originally by: Corstaad
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
You do realize I provided in game numbers as well? That matched EFT's numbers very accurately.
If there is something you don't understand about the numbers feel free to ask.
So we have your subjective observations, my observations and a bunch of numbers backing me up. To have a reasonable argument you should try and somehow disprove my numbers if you don't believe them, or tell me why the numbers are irrelevant.
Cause you coming to forums whining doesn't prove anything about how overpowered ecm drones are. Some of us like the game when it isn't purely about dps and tanks. I think personally that ECM drones offer a lot more complex battle field. Its not hard to kill them, it takes some time or changing your setup, but with careful piloting and not being unlucky with statistics, you should come out on top against ECM drones atleast half the times in a strict 1v1 environment.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:01:00 -
[46]
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
also add: high sec wars and cloaked neutrals.
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[Video] Angel of War |
The Tzar
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:53:00 -
[48]
So very tired of all the whingers on this forum... If you personally don't like it, either stop playing the game, train up for said 'overpowered' skill yourself rather than spoiling other peoples game.
Adapt or die, do not keep on whinging..., it's pathetic, needy and oh so very boring. We've heard it once, we do not need to here it again and again.
Please keep 'nerf it' threads in the development forum not this one. If you want to make a change to the game this is where it goes.
Then the rest of the adults playing the game won't need to trowel through your weak and lacking ability.
You are the same people that whinge about global warming but still drive a car. People that are vegetarian but still wear leather shoes. Help yourself, do not expect others to do it for you..., unless you still where a diaper.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear intelligent
until they speak'
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Trojanman190
The Conflagration
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:00:00 -
[49]
The only thing broken about ecm drones is the interface. The bar at the bottom keeps running whether you are jammed or not. That is majorly annoying. Otherwise they are fine.
Look at it like this... at least they don't get a drone interfacing benefit 
If you are worried about them in battleship one on ones... smart bomb. One volley pops medium t1s quite easily.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Corstaad
Those easy to kill drones are time, time you have to disengage target. Swapping webs around kiting the drones, trying to target drones after you've already lost lock. All the time you have a thorax trying to get in web range. My #1 and only worry when fighting a thorax is those ECM drones. Its easy to say just kill drones and all he has to do bring them in and out of his dronebay. I'm sorry if this confuses you guys I'm talking about smaller size engagements not running someone over with six buddies.
for god sake. Just lock the drone s as soon as they are laucnhed. I do that with EVERY drone ! CCP gaev y9ou a way to kill some dps or ewar from your enemy and you dont use it, your fault!
Killign drones is NOT a waste of time, its SMART. even when they are nromal DPS drones. You 2 start to fight. Each has 30% of tis dps on drones. you start killign his drones. when you finihs you will have lost what? some HP sure. But from now on there is a great chance he cannot break your tank anymore , while you still have all your dps. Same thing with ecm drones.
Of course for people that think lockign eney f1-18 is the most complexity this game should have.. .well this might be a bit too complicated.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
2 words.. move away!
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Talos Darkhart
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
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Polcor Rodal
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
Exactly. I want my so-so-skilled-perma-jamming-arbi-of-doom back, which killed BC¦s (Tier1)
while i was eating potato chips, gargling with coke and watch the enemy dying at my pleasure.
Since they nerfed all EWAR and boosted ECM (yes, the caldari ones), they managed to make
caldari (more) wothy for PvP.... We have people in our corp, that can easilly snack lvl4¦s, but have
nothing to add to a gang than EW.
So we all get nerfed to make those guys feel less useless.Now we have lots of EWAR and tacklers but....
Who the hell will do the damage ??!!
Pol
Take care, bears. |
SKINK0429
Lucky Hydra Corp
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:30:00 -
[54]
I have fought plenty of ships packing ECM drones and never had a problem! Never soloed one yet but I can never find a solo target .
Popped a Golem the other day that was packing heavy ECM drones and they didnt get a cycle of on anyone in the gang! Bare in mind it took us a good 10 mins to take him down with his dread gurista tank
Keep them as they are there not broke.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:39:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Grimpak on 21/04/2008 12:40:46
Originally by: Forge Lag
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
thread closed.
but yes, it's not that ECM drones are overpowered.
it's just that the other Ewar drones and ECCM aren't that amazing.
dampening drones are meh.
neut drones are meh.
TD drones are even more meh.
TP drones are lulz.
there is only one size of webbing drones (heavy).
wich makes the ECM drones the only that has real use and impact in comparision with the other drones.
add a rather useless ECCM system that offers no benefits beyond increasing the chance of not getting jammed, and there you have it.
---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 21/04/2008 12:40:46
Originally by: Forge Lag
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
thread closed.
but yes, it's not that ECM drones are overpowered.
it's just that the other Ewar drones and ECCM aren't that amazing.
dampening drones are meh.
neut drones are meh.
TD drones are even more meh.
TP drones are lulz.
there is only one size of webbing drones (heavy).
wich makes the ECM drones the only that has real use and impact in comparision with the other drones.
add a rather useless ECCM system that offers no benefits beyond increasing the chance of not getting jammed, and there you have it.
Agree
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:38:00 -
[57]
Originally by: The Tzar
So very tired of all the whingers on this forum... If you personally don't like it, either stop playing the game, train up for said 'overpowered' skill yourself rather than spoiling other peoples game.
I use both nano and ecm drones myself. I know both are overpowered. This is about making the game more an even playground instead of making it ecm/nano online. Are you worried that you actually going to need skill to kill anything without ecm drones or nanos?
Adapt or die? This game would have been utterly boring if no balancing was made, ever. We'd have gankageddons flying around everywhere as the only flyable ship. GF.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:39:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
And make it a worse game by forcing everyone to fit ecm in their mid slots?
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[Video] Angel of War |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:40:00 -
[59]
SMART BOMB to kill ECM-Drones.
They are so fragiel its not even funny. Conversely have a gang small ship sniper (assault frigate) pick off enemy drones, I have a gang mate dedicated to this role for just this reason alone!
FRIEND
OR
FOE
To kill ECM ships.
Falcon sits far away - have high speed ship fly towards Falcon - have FoF ship warp to fast ship and fire away on falcon - he leaves - you've nullified enemy ECM.
STOP asking for nerfs!
I don't want speed tanks killed.
I don't want ECM killed.
You guys are going to make BLOBS EVEN WORSE!!!!
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Omarvelous
SMART BOMB to kill ECM-Drones.
They are so fragiel its not even funny. Conversely have a gang small ship sniper (assault frigate) pick off enemy drones, I have a gang mate dedicated to this role for just this reason alone!
FRIEND
OR
FOE
To kill ECM ships.
Falcon sits far away - have high speed ship fly towards Falcon - have FoF ship warp to fast ship and fire away on falcon - he leaves - you've nullified enemy ECM.
STOP asking for nerfs!
I don't want speed tanks killed.
I don't want ECM killed.
You guys are going to make BLOBS EVEN WORSE!!!!
Worthless points.
ECM drones are used in solo and small engagements. Also mostly in low sec and high sec warfare. This means smartbombs and "friends" are not options most of the time.
Not all ships have launchers to use FoF.
-Falcons need a nerf
-Light and Medium ECM drones need a nerf
-Nano speed stacking needs a nerf
-It has nothing to do with blobs. Nano's blob every single target they kill. The difference is that you can't counter a nano blob with anything except another nano blob. A normal blob is counterable by any group of ships that has enough firepower.
These cheap types of game play need to go from eve.
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[Video] Angel of War |
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