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Agazoth III
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:07:00 -
[1]
I use them everyday. There a life saver and if you have dronebay use these. What I don't like is how lame a decent fight can get with these. End of fight is always followed by "gf your drones had me jammed the whole time". Cripple fight is when you both have ECM drones and the same dronebay. The point is instead of fighting someone your fighting drones. Just do something so we can have a little flavor to are dronebays.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:08:00 -
[2]
^^^Thats me.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:09:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Agazoth III
I use them everyday. There a life saver and if you have dronebay use these. What I don't like is how lame a decent fight can get with these. End of fight is always followed by "gf your drones had me jammed the whole time". Cripple fight is when you both have ECM drones and the same dronebay. The point is instead of fighting someone your fighting drones. Just do something so we can have a little flavor to are dronebays.
well it's a bit relative.
they are good, but they become useless when you're in a 1vs "bigger than 1 value" fights.
also, the "whole time" thing is relative.
how long was the fight?
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Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:11:00 -
[4]
Grimpak this isn't a fight its everyday.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:12:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Corstaad
Grimpak this isn't a fight its everyday.
so you get 1vs1's every day?
no, it's not a trolling. I'm being serious.
---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:16:00 -
[6]
Yes atleast once a day, thats not the point they work great in gangs as well. If I go to my drones overview in some the active systems and scan with my drones setting I get a two page report on EC-300.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:16:00 -
[7]
smart bombs 
also i was able to lock up some heavy ecm drones, popped 1 of em, could have gotten some more but as they were a corpmates I didn't feel like blowing up any more 
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:39:00 -
[8]
I know part of the fun in this game is the fitting out your ship making counters what not. All I hear though everday is **** ecm drones. On the other forums its well known your ******** if you undock without them. Would be interesting to use T2 drones again.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:41:00 -
[9]
What is the ECM drone orbit distance? Because if it's shorter than 4000 then I don't get why people would call ECM drones "gamebreaking" and "overpowered". Because even a medium EM/Thermal smartbomb would be able to foof them quite easily.
______________________________________________
-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
Morthis Rygal
Gallente
Zero Potential
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:41:00 -
[10]
Bit of a pet peeve of mine, but I just can't stand it when people throw out these terms like perma jamming constantly, when in all likely hood it meant I got jammed once and it ****ed me off.
I've heard the same stories of falcon's perma jamming entire gangs fitted with 5000 ECCM's each, and what have you.
The chance for 5 heavy drones to jam a battleship (22 sensor strength) for a minute straight (3 cycles), is about 5%, and not many ships have the drone bay to even field 5 of those. The chance for 5 light drones to do the same is 0.89%.
If you're saying ECM drones are too powerful and can really change fights (being that their chance to jam is fairly low generally, if you get lucky and they do get a cycle in it can really change the fight), say that, but calling it perma jamming just seems so silly to me, because true perma jamming from ECM drones is rather rare.
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.20 19:54:00 -
[11]
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko
That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:01:00 -
[12]
Edited by: General Coochie on 20/04/2008 20:01:28
5 medium ECM drones jams on average once every 50 seconds for 20seconds on a cruiser. Makes you versatile 1v1 as it means you could bail out, and it can give you the edge IF they work more often then they "should". However if it takes 50sec before first jam, the other guy using dps drones would have popped your ecm drones many times over before that.
Also ECCM reduces drones effectiveness by quite a lot.
Yeah they are good when you have say 3 cruisers vs one bigger ship.
A frig gang attacking your thorax with a mix of ECM themselves? Dps drones would be much much better.
I had 1v1 thorax vs thorax, Where I avoided blaster range long enough to pop all his ecm drones. Then after that my drones didn't get a single cycle and he popped all of mine. They pop in like 2 sec so scooping them is impossible. If I had dps drones in that fight would have won even easier.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:16:00 -
[13]
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
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Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 20/04/2008 20:34:04
for a battleship with 22 sensor strength the chance of NOT getting jammed ONCE within 1 minute (3 cycles) by 5 heavy ecm drones is only about 16%. So in other words with a chance of about 84% you are at least jammed once within that minute. Being jammed once in a battleship is about 20-30 sec without dps/tackle etc depending on relock times. So thats pretty noticeable effect. Not saying it shouldn't be as 5 heavies would do a considerable amount of dps if you would've taken them with you.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 20:44:00 -
[15]
I really don't mind ECM boats its makes it so we have the "combined arms" style of pvp and not just one class of ships. This is also why I hate ecm drones because everyone uses them. I don't see combat drones unless is Heavy Drones or Drone boats.
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Cool Goose
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:05:00 -
[16]
May i haz your drones ?!
No seriously give them to me. I don't know in what part of eve you're playing but let's just say that i've seen a lot of bad luck regarding the ECM drones.
One corp mate of mine was flying a dominix and another a megathron and in about 3 minutes or so the large ecm drones from the domi only broke the lock twice.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 21:10:00 -
[17]
If your on a alt your worthless either no experience or to scared(?) to post on a forum.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Oyster Colors
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:08:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 20/04/2008 23:09:08
Hmm, I can't see them being used that excessive, out of 10 fights I encounter them maybe one time at most, the most popular drones are Hammerhead IIs I'd say.
It's true that they're very powerful on the Thorax, especially when used against minmatar ships with their pathetic sensors, but this can be dealt with, either fit ECCM (yeah, I know, I don't do it either  ), or just try to pop 1-2 of them or let your dps drones take care of them and they're not a problem anymore since the jamming chances are dropping rapidly.
If that fails just bail, you didn't win the fight but you didn't die either that way, on a side note I try to stay outside web range until I know the enemy drone type (or his offensive capabilities in general) to keep that option available.
On the Hurricane they suck imho, nothing 4 lights and one med could jam what I couldn't kill without problems anyway, and they won't do much against BSs, so I rather go with dps drones.
Now a Thorax will get a few jam cycles in on me, but nowhere near a permajam, so just wait for the failed cycle and take them out.
Btw, jam cycles are 25sec on ECM drones iirc.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:32:00 -
[19]
I'd say ECM drones don't really need a nerf. Afterall, ECM is one of the only viable forms of EWAR left after everything else has been nerfed into oblivion, but only specialized ships can use them effectively. ECM drones allow for some flexability in small gang fights when one doesn't have a Caldari ECM pilot handy.
And even in a boat with weak sensors, ECM drones aren't more than an edge - one easily defeated with smartbombs. I'm not going to applaud users of ECM drones for "thinking outside the box" because it's common enough that they have their own box.
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TimMc
Gallente
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:37:00 -
[20]
My Brutix vs Torp-Neut Raven.
He was permajammed by 5 medium ecm drones for 90% of our 4 minute fight. He finally docked at 50% armour, but I don't think I would have gotten him there if sentries were not helping.
Massively overpowered, but awesome for 1v1 laming.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:37:00 -
[21]
See that more along the lines I'm coming from. Everytime I get into a decent small scale fight its ECM drones flying everywhere. It alway ends with, that ECCM did crap, good thing you took out my drones first, I hate ECM drones. I'm just sick of ecm drones to tell yah the truth and want to stop using them but there addicting.
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Hunter Peyote
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Posted - 2008.04.20 23:41:00 -
[22]
ECM drones are fine, it all depends on the fight. What is it with people wanting to nerf bat stuff...
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Everyone Dies
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:30:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 00:30:24
Originally by: arbalesttom
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
QFMFT
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:35:00 -
[24]
No Falcon fit right even carries seven jammers. Good god, I should just stop reading these topics. The forum trolls have their next crusade: ECM. No amount of empirical evidence or statistics will deter them.
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:38:00 -
[25]
Edited by: arbalesttom on 21/04/2008 00:39:27
Ecm at this point is WAY overpowered compared to the other racial recon ships. Its just the same like nano and snakes atm, all the guys that fly it try to convince you its not overpowered, but it will get nerfed/relooked at soon anyway.
Ecm boats and nano are current fotm, simple and clear.
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko
That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |
dolmant
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Morthis Rygal
Bit of a pet peeve of mine, but I just can't stand it when people throw out these terms like perma jamming constantly, when in all likely hood it meant I got jammed once and it ****ed me off.
I've heard the same stories of falcon's perma jamming entire gangs fitted with 5000 ECCM's each, and what have you.
If you're saying ECM drones are too powerful and can really change fights (being that their chance to jam is fairly low generally, if you get lucky and they do get a cycle in it can really change the fight), say that, but calling it perma jamming just seems so silly to me, because true perma jamming from ECM drones is rather rare.
My gang warped to my rapier, we had a vaga, 2 inties, and myself, and the falcon and vaga we warped on got out cos the falcon jammed all of us.
And i've had 1v1 battleship fights where i was jammed every second cycle. It was a raven, and his tank was on the verge of breaking each time.
i think this is not unbalanced, because my 5 ogres played a huge part in breaking his tank. Although i think if some ships can get a drone damage bonus without being overpowered (e.g. the domi gets a drone damage bonus), then if you can apply the same bonus to ECM drones without them being overpowered, i would say its balanced. If not, then i would say ECM drones have a base advantage over the damage drones, if you know what i'm saying. plz tell me if i'm wrong, i don't know @@
My 2 isk
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 00:48:00 -
[27]
ECM ships are balanced to the effect your going to be down one DPS boat to have one in gang. So in effect you don't see them as much in little skirmishs. Currently I really like how ECM works. The only reason I brought this up is ECM drones seem like the new NOS. Its not overpowered its just the fact unless you have a droneboat or a Heavy Drone dronebay you'll use ECM drones. Your only dropping a few dps and gaining a 50/50 chance based jammer. I'm currently changing everyone of my setups to deal with ECM drones.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
that because the target in question is an idiot and didnt kill those EASY to kill drones as first thing in fight.
ECM drones are VERY easy to get rid of. They are the ONLY ewar balanced inthis game.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:15:00 -
[29]
Those easy to kill drones are time, time you have to disengage target. Swapping webs around kiting the drones, trying to target drones after you've already lost lock. All the time you have a thorax trying to get in web range. My #1 and only worry when fighting a thorax is those ECM drones. Its easy to say just kill drones and all he has to do bring them in and out of his dronebay. I'm sorry if this confuses you guys I'm talking about smaller size engagements not running someone over with six buddies.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 00:41:44
Originally by: arbalesttom
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
QFMFT
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
I REALLY do wish people would stop bandying around things like "perma jammed" especially in situations where it is entirely incorrect. A Falcon will carry between 6 and 7 jamemrs on average. A single jammer with good skills will yeild ~50% chance to jam give or take depending on the race. If a single falcon DID happen to try and jam all 5 - 7 battleships, the odds are decisively on the battleship's side that they simply need to pop the untanked falcon the minute they get a lock. I won't clutter a thread like this with silly math to prove my point on why your statement is utterly false however.
That being said, ECM has not grown in power of late overall, though the falcon did get it's bonus upped somewhat. It seems to me that the whines about ECM being completely overpowered started about the same time that the last competing EWAR was nerfed into obscalescence. ECM is the only EWAR that still works, perhaps before we all go asking for it to be broken as well we should think making those other options useful.
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Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:38:00 -
[31]
I have to say this seems like a whine thread.
The OP states that ECM drones are a problem, everyone uses them (not in my experience, which is extensive enough thanks), and they are broken.
He then goes on to state that he is changing his fittings to deal with them.
Erm....sorry, but....isn't that the POINT of EVE's flexibility in the first place? If someone fits a tool, you find and fit a counter.
And the whole idea of ECM being overpowered is ludicrous. In every single example given in this thread (and others), the Falcon is the ship mentioned. One of the ONLY ships that is INTENDED to be good at this (and nothing else!!), and one that just recently got boosted out of obscurity, so its more popular and more common.
Sorry, but your lack of ability to see the bigger picture does not constitute a game design issue. ECM is fine. It is only effective on boats that are designed for it.
You want to fix things?
1. Fix sensor damp boats, make them viable.
2. Improve tracking disruptor boats. Make them viable.
3. Get rid of target painting as a racial EWAR type (unimaginative). Introduce either missle disruption or drone disruption as the new Minnie ewar (carefully.....).
Buffs. Not nerfs.
ps. to be perfectly honest, it would make more sense for Minnie to have tracking disruption, and Amarr either missle (vs. minnie's secondary weapon) or drone (vs. Gallente secondary weapon), at least from a game history perspective. However, that'd mean folks having to cross train for ships they already own, which is never popular. Above way is simpler.
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This thread does not exist
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:43:00 -
[32]
This is not suppose to be ECM nerf thread.
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Aegis Osiris
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.21 01:50:00 -
[33]
True 'nuff, soz for the derail.
ECM drones are fine so long as there are reasonable counters. There are, so I dont see the problem.
There, happy?
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This thread does not exist
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:35:00 -
[34]
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 02:58:00 -
[35]
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones . |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 08:24:00 -
[36]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:26:00
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:25:06
Originally by: Corstaad
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones .
So in your testing did you also count the number of jams vs a target? Cause I did today.
Thorax vs my alts harbinger (16 sensor strength which is high compared to minmatar cruisers I admit).
Test lasted 16min.
I used 5 medium ECM drones.
Harbinger was fit 7 heavy beam, ab, ship scan, 3 heatsinks, 2 tracking enhancers, 1 DCU II
Total cycles: 48
Nr of successful jam cycles: 16
Nr of unsuccessful jam cycles: 32
Time jammed: 320 sec or 5min
Time not jammed: 640 sec or 10min.
Chance of jam: 16/48 = 1/3 = 33% Or once every minute. Which means that in general you wont get first jam with 5 medium ECM drones until after 40sec. note that EFT lists 5 med ecm drones chance to jam a harbinger to 38.5% fairly accurate indeed.
If this was my thorax vs my own thorax fighting, same fitting.
DPS ECM drones saved me from during these 16min: 124480
DPS damage drones would have done in these 16min: 151680
So why do I use ECM drones myeslf? Well if I am loosing / cant get close to a nanod target / etc, and get a jam cycle I can warp out.
Versatility > DPS
But in PvP performance 1v1 dps drones have advantage over ECM drones. Also once dps drones has aggrod ECM drones they go down quick.
ECM drones also enables you to have luck and take on targets you otherwise would have lost against. However you can also have bad luck and not get a jam for 2min during that time ure ECM drones should be dead.
Now you some might say that ECM drones are superior as it enables say 5 thorax to easy take down a battleship without him locking.
Interesting facts then
5 thorax global jam chance against a megathron: 84.3% according to quick fit
A blackbirds chance to jam a megathron with 5 multispecs: 88%
Switching one rax for a blackbird looses you 530 turret dps if they are fully gank fitted with full skills (unlikely)
The 4 thoraxes left uses dps drones and gets 632 more dps.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Corstaad
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones .
Racial ECCM stops 3 med + 2 light ECM combo from jamming my Hurricane during the entirety of a fight cs another BC. If you're using the right one
I sometimes load ECM drones (almost always on Cruisers), but I mostly prefer damage drones on larger ships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:05:00 -
[38]
You got way to many random eft numbers so I have to disregard that. Like I said to begin this thread I use ECM drones. In fact every ship I have that has a drone bay uses them. I know how to deal with them as well. I'm pointing out that everyone atleast in my corner of low sec uses them. It would be nice to see abit of variety in people loadout lately. Also I try judge things from my seat not pvp videos.
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chinnychinchin
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:06:00 -
[39]
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:07:00 -
[40]
Its was a ruppy vs ruppy fight and he loaded a eccm instead of web which didn't do hardly anything.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:20:00 -
[41]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 09:23:49
Originally by: Corstaad
You got way to many random eft numbers so I have to disregard that. Like I said to begin this thread I use ECM drones. In fact every ship I have that has a drone bay uses them. I know how to deal with them as well. I'm pointing out that everyone atleast in my corner of low sec uses them. It would be nice to see abit of variety in people loadout lately. Also I try judge things from my seat not pvp videos.
Disregard facts and be subjective then. Don't expect anyone to take your whining seriously though.
And if EVERYONE uses them, why don't you just fit a smartbomb? 3 cycles (22.5sec) from a medium smartbomb -> medium ECM drones *pop*.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:33:00 -
[42]
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Corstaad
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
You do realize that the alternative is to spend *thousands* of tries figuring out what the reality is? If that feels more comfortable to you, keep your ignorant stance.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 09:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
--------------------------------------
[Video] Angel of War |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:09:28
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:06:06
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 10:02:25
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
Or you could view it this way:
They only offer an advantage if the ship attacked has more then 474 dps in turrets/misslies. Cause then the damage mitigated through ECM will exceed what you lost not using dps drones. This is against cruiser sized targets.
So they are actually more overpowered against high dps ships relying on turrets or missiles for damage then against ships with lower dps, tougher tanks and more drone dps.
Originally by: Corstaad
If you rattle of a page of numbers of course I'm going to disregard it. Nobody is going to spend a hour with EFT trying to debunk that.
You do realize I provided in game numbers as well? That matched EFT's numbers very accurately.
If there is something you don't understand about the numbers feel free to ask.
So we have your subjective observations, my observations and a bunch of numbers backing me up. To have a reasonable argument you should try and somehow disprove my numbers if you don't believe them, or tell me why the numbers are irrelevant.
Cause you coming to forums whining doesn't prove anything about how overpowered ecm drones are. Some of us like the game when it isn't purely about dps and tanks. I think personally that ECM drones offer a lot more complex battle field. Its not hard to kill them, it takes some time or changing your setup, but with careful piloting and not being unlucky with statistics, you should come out on top against ECM drones atleast half the times in a strict 1v1 environment.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:01:00 -
[46]
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 10:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
also add: high sec wars and cloaked neutrals.
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[Video] Angel of War |
The Tzar
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Posted - 2008.04.21 11:53:00 -
[48]
So very tired of all the whingers on this forum... If you personally don't like it, either stop playing the game, train up for said 'overpowered' skill yourself rather than spoiling other peoples game.
Adapt or die, do not keep on whinging..., it's pathetic, needy and oh so very boring. We've heard it once, we do not need to here it again and again.
Please keep 'nerf it' threads in the development forum not this one. If you want to make a change to the game this is where it goes.
Then the rest of the adults playing the game won't need to trowel through your weak and lacking ability.
You are the same people that whinge about global warming but still drive a car. People that are vegetarian but still wear leather shoes. Help yourself, do not expect others to do it for you..., unless you still where a diaper.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear intelligent
until they speak'
__________________________________________ |
Trojanman190
The Conflagration
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:00:00 -
[49]
The only thing broken about ecm drones is the interface. The bar at the bottom keeps running whether you are jammed or not. That is majorly annoying. Otherwise they are fine.
Look at it like this... at least they don't get a drone interfacing benefit
If you are worried about them in battleship one on ones... smart bomb. One volley pops medium t1s quite easily.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:01:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Corstaad
Those easy to kill drones are time, time you have to disengage target. Swapping webs around kiting the drones, trying to target drones after you've already lost lock. All the time you have a thorax trying to get in web range. My #1 and only worry when fighting a thorax is those ECM drones. Its easy to say just kill drones and all he has to do bring them in and out of his dronebay. I'm sorry if this confuses you guys I'm talking about smaller size engagements not running someone over with six buddies.
for god sake. Just lock the drone s as soon as they are laucnhed. I do that with EVERY drone ! CCP gaev y9ou a way to kill some dps or ewar from your enemy and you dont use it, your fault!
Killign drones is NOT a waste of time, its SMART. even when they are nromal DPS drones. You 2 start to fight. Each has 30% of tis dps on drones. you start killign his drones. when you finihs you will have lost what? some HP sure. But from now on there is a great chance he cannot break your tank anymore , while you still have all your dps. Same thing with ecm drones.
Of course for people that think lockign eney f1-18 is the most complexity this game should have.. .well this might be a bit too complicated.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:02:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
2 words, please re-arrange them
bomb - smart
Two words, no need to rearrange them:
Stations, gates.
2 words.. move away!
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Talos Darkhart
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Corstaad
If I fight a Thorax in a Ruppy I know by default if they fit medium ECM drones I will lose the fight. Jamming happens much more then once every 50 secs . Even flying my Hurricane I know that if I find another BC he'll be jammed atleast a 1/3 of the time. Nobody likes to mention ecm drones because its a new Iwin for a small scale fights.
Exactly. They are especially overpowered on gun boats with already high inherent gun damage like thorax and harbinger. Those ships with 5xec-600 can rip **** apart without them being able to fight back reasonably. I hope they nerf it soon together with falcons.
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
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Polcor Rodal
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
Exactly. I want my so-so-skilled-perma-jamming-arbi-of-doom back, which killed BC¦s (Tier1)
while i was eating potato chips, gargling with coke and watch the enemy dying at my pleasure.
Since they nerfed all EWAR and boosted ECM (yes, the caldari ones), they managed to make
caldari (more) wothy for PvP.... We have people in our corp, that can easilly snack lvl4¦s, but have
nothing to add to a gang than EW.
So we all get nerfed to make those guys feel less useless.Now we have lots of EWAR and tacklers but....
Who the hell will do the damage ??!!
Pol
Take care, bears. |
SKINK0429
Lucky Hydra Corp
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:30:00 -
[54]
I have fought plenty of ships packing ECM drones and never had a problem! Never soloed one yet but I can never find a solo target .
Popped a Golem the other day that was packing heavy ECM drones and they didnt get a cycle of on anyone in the gang! Bare in mind it took us a good 10 mins to take him down with his dread gurista tank
Keep them as they are there not broke.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.21 12:39:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Grimpak on 21/04/2008 12:40:46
Originally by: Forge Lag
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
thread closed.
but yes, it's not that ECM drones are overpowered.
it's just that the other Ewar drones and ECCM aren't that amazing.
dampening drones are meh.
neut drones are meh.
TD drones are even more meh.
TP drones are lulz.
there is only one size of webbing drones (heavy).
wich makes the ECM drones the only that has real use and impact in comparision with the other drones.
add a rather useless ECCM system that offers no benefits beyond increasing the chance of not getting jammed, and there you have it.
---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 21/04/2008 12:40:46
Originally by: Forge Lag
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
thread closed.
but yes, it's not that ECM drones are overpowered.
it's just that the other Ewar drones and ECCM aren't that amazing.
dampening drones are meh.
neut drones are meh.
TD drones are even more meh.
TP drones are lulz.
there is only one size of webbing drones (heavy).
wich makes the ECM drones the only that has real use and impact in comparision with the other drones.
add a rather useless ECCM system that offers no benefits beyond increasing the chance of not getting jammed, and there you have it.
Agree
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:38:00 -
[57]
Originally by: The Tzar
So very tired of all the whingers on this forum... If you personally don't like it, either stop playing the game, train up for said 'overpowered' skill yourself rather than spoiling other peoples game.
I use both nano and ecm drones myself. I know both are overpowered. This is about making the game more an even playground instead of making it ecm/nano online. Are you worried that you actually going to need skill to kill anything without ecm drones or nanos?
Adapt or die? This game would have been utterly boring if no balancing was made, ever. We'd have gankageddons flying around everywhere as the only flyable ship. GF.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:39:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart
I think ECM and ECCM should be rolled back to it's original rules to show these nubs what perma jammed really means I can imagine the nerdrage on here al ready
And make it a worse game by forcing everyone to fit ecm in their mid slots?
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[Video] Angel of War |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:40:00 -
[59]
SMART BOMB to kill ECM-Drones.
They are so fragiel its not even funny. Conversely have a gang small ship sniper (assault frigate) pick off enemy drones, I have a gang mate dedicated to this role for just this reason alone!
FRIEND
OR
FOE
To kill ECM ships.
Falcon sits far away - have high speed ship fly towards Falcon - have FoF ship warp to fast ship and fire away on falcon - he leaves - you've nullified enemy ECM.
STOP asking for nerfs!
I don't want speed tanks killed.
I don't want ECM killed.
You guys are going to make BLOBS EVEN WORSE!!!!
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 14:43:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Omarvelous
SMART BOMB to kill ECM-Drones.
They are so fragiel its not even funny. Conversely have a gang small ship sniper (assault frigate) pick off enemy drones, I have a gang mate dedicated to this role for just this reason alone!
FRIEND
OR
FOE
To kill ECM ships.
Falcon sits far away - have high speed ship fly towards Falcon - have FoF ship warp to fast ship and fire away on falcon - he leaves - you've nullified enemy ECM.
STOP asking for nerfs!
I don't want speed tanks killed.
I don't want ECM killed.
You guys are going to make BLOBS EVEN WORSE!!!!
Worthless points.
ECM drones are used in solo and small engagements. Also mostly in low sec and high sec warfare. This means smartbombs and "friends" are not options most of the time.
Not all ships have launchers to use FoF.
-Falcons need a nerf
-Light and Medium ECM drones need a nerf
-Nano speed stacking needs a nerf
-It has nothing to do with blobs. Nano's blob every single target they kill. The difference is that you can't counter a nano blob with anything except another nano blob. A normal blob is counterable by any group of ships that has enough firepower.
These cheap types of game play need to go from eve.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:47:00 -
[61]
Make ECCM work with scripts? Script 1: +scan strength, Script 2: -duration. An ECCM that reduced jam duration (while activation delay would remain the same) would be a sensible counter to ECM.
---
CEO
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.04.21 14:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Worthless points.
ECM drones are used in solo and small engagements. Also mostly in low sec and high sec warfare. This means smartbombs and "friends" are not options most of the time.
Not all ships have launchers to use FoF.
-Falcons need a nerf
-Light and Medium ECM drones need a nerf
-Nano speed stacking needs a nerf
-It has nothing to do with blobs. Nano's blob every single target they kill. The difference is that you can't counter a nano blob with anything except another nano blob. A normal blob is counterable by any group of ships that has enough firepower.
These cheap types of game play need to go from eve.
Sorry to say your points are rather worthless Lyria.
Solo-small engagements - if you're not fit to counter ecm drones - then you deserve to lose. This game isn't just gank and tank online.
You have to be prepared.
If you compromise your dps with smartbombs - at least you saved yourself from ecm drones!!! You can't have it both ways!
If FoF isn't possible - then warp to your fast ship with a disco ship - and again no lock necessary to drive off ecm ship.
Hmm lets flame you back...
Amar lasers need a damage nerf.
Amar resistance tanks need a nerf.
Amar Apocalypse weapon range needs to be nerfed.
You know what? Making silly nerf wishes to annoy other people is FUN!
Nerf Lyria!
Back on topic. ECM allows for a DIVERSE gameplay - you have tactical options. It allows someone who isn't on par with your gank + tank skills to have a trick up their sleeve.
The counters for ECM are there and EASILY implemented (I do it myself ALL the time).
If you nerf ECM again, its just makes gank + tank setups more powerful. What type of fighting maximizes from that tactic?
BLOBS
When they nerf ECM and there are spider tanked gangs that you can't break - remember you killed a viable tactic that would counter that...
Stop being short sighted and focusing on your gank + tank Amar philosophy Lyria, its getting old.
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Stop being short sighted and focusing on your gank + tank Amar philosophy Lyria, its getting old.
TANK AND GANK IS THE ONLY WAY!
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[Video] Angel of War |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
XIII Legio
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:20:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Omarvelous
Stop being short sighted and focusing on your gank + tank Amar philosophy Lyria, its getting old.
TANK AND GANK IS THE ONLY WAY!
Glad to see a sense of humor in these threads once in a while!
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Hardtail
Red Dawn Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:25:00 -
[65]
This is stupid.
Fit a smartbomb.
Win
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El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:37:00 -
[66]
What about a ECCM module for Rigslots? Which isn't expensive
Killboard |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 15:52:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hardtail
Win
I like winning.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Xaen
Caldari
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 15:56:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 00:41:44
Originally by: arbalesttom
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
QFMFT
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
I doubt they were permajammed. The falcon pilot probably missed a few cycles, but the lock time of battleships was working in his favor. And I highly doubt they were able to jam that many ships through ECCM. Anecdotal evidence FTL.
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Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 17:52:00 -
[69]
Here is the whole point to why ECM drones suck. I remeber the half a year before NOS got nerf. I also can go back and watch the pvp videos . It wasn't that NOS was op'd it was just to good module not to fit to your extra high slots. Now take ECM drones and normal ships drone bays. The real dps those drones add are kinda crap so everyone loads ecm drones. Thats my point alt #1234 can comment now that I can't fly ships. E-Peen pirate #5432 can tell me to EFT up.
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
-Falcons need a nerf
-Light and Medium ECM drones need a nerf
-Nano speed stacking needs a nerf
Never knew i would agree with Lyria
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko
That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |
El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:09:00 -
[71]
OP Is right, either ECM drones are overpowered and should be nerfed, or the other ewar drones should be boosted.
________________________________________________
ME BEING JESUS ******* CHRIST IN MY BATTLEWAGON OF DOOM
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:10:00 -
[72]
Originally by: El'Tar
OP Is right, either ECM drones are overpowered and should be nerfed, and the other ewar drones should be boosted.
Thread repair $5 cheap cheap
***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko
That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |
El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 18:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: arbalesttom
Originally by: El'Tar
OP Is right, either ECM drones are overpowered and should be nerfed, and the other ewar drones should be boosted.
Thread repair $5 cheap cheap
In my defence, I shall state; no u
________________________________________________
ME BEING JESUS ******* CHRIST IN MY BATTLEWAGON OF DOOM
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
Bullsh*t.
You either misinterpreted the events or you're lying.
Do the math before responding. Look at the specific odds of jamming 7 battleships for 60 seconds at the same time. I'll make it simple: you can assume the falcon pilot had the correct racial jammers for each BS. 
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Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.21 18:53:00 -
[75]
Yeah falcons are a bit stupid at the moment. There isn't anything as valuable as a falcon in small->med gangs atm.
Not biased, my alt is 20 mil sp caldari pilot that can fly the falcon; as well as there are many corp members that fly it.
They need to either:
1) increase the fitting requirements for jammers (so only like 4 max can be fitted)
2) have a different ratio for jammed target vs jammer (jammer reuse being much, much longer)
3) not "jam" per se but act like distant ecm burst and just break lock.
4) decrease range so they actually have to be in target range like the rest of ecm ships (i.e. max 40-50 km range unoverloaded)
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:15:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Sionide
1) increase the fitting requirements for jammers (so only like 4 max can be fitted)
2) have a different ratio for jammed target vs jammer (jammer reuse being much, much longer)
3) not "jam" per se but act like distant ecm burst and just break lock.
4) decrease range so they actually have to be in target range like the rest of ecm ships (i.e. max 40-50 km range unoverloaded)
Which would make the ship totally pointless. ...and no one would fly it.
It has no tank. It does zero DPS. It cannot tackle. You cannot nano it for speed. It's only use is in gang...
You want to make it totally ineffective or bring it into range of insta-popping.
As you should know, countering a falcon is simple...and there are multiple ways to counter it. You just have to expect it.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:19:00 -
[77]
Like I said I'm trying to explain why I think ECM drones have become the new NOS. Flying a ECM boat is totally different because you either choose to fly a DPS ship or a ECM ship with zero other utility.
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El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:34:00 -
[78]
Or when ships not specialized for ecm used to fit ECM, any one remember Nos + Ecm domi?
________________________________________________
ME BEING JESUS ******* CHRIST IN MY BATTLEWAGON OF DOOM
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 19:52:00 -
[79]
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 19:55:07
Originally by: Corstaad
Here is the whole point to why ECM drones suck. I remeber the half a year before NOS got nerf. I also can go back and watch the pvp videos . It wasn't that NOS was op'd it was just to good module not to fit to your extra high slots. Now take ECM drones and normal ships drone bays. The real dps those drones add are kinda crap so everyone loads ecm drones. Thats my point alt #1234 can comment now that I can't fly ships. E-Peen pirate #5432 can tell me to EFT up.
In the case of the thorax depending on fitting you consider 30-45% more dps to be crap in all situations?
Sorry but you are just pulling arguements out of your ass.
Or are you saying that dps drones needs a boost?
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
|
Posted - 2008.04.21 20:02:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Corstaad on 21/04/2008 20:05:45
Sorry I'm not pulling stuff out of my arse. I'm actually playing the game not EFTing. You hate for me to mention this because your justified by EFT on why theres nothing wrong with them. Watch a small scale pvp video before the NoS nerf. You see almost every ship had little vampire trails coming off it. Now go to a active low sec system and do a scan for drones. Tell me what you find.
30% to 45% dmg isn't real damage do you understand that.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:04:00 -
[81]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 19:55:07
Originally by: Corstaad
Here is the whole point to why ECM drones suck. I remeber the half a year before NOS got nerf. I also can go back and watch the pvp videos . It wasn't that NOS was op'd it was just to good module not to fit to your extra high slots. Now take ECM drones and normal ships drone bays. The real dps those drones add are kinda crap so everyone loads ecm drones. Thats my point alt #1234 can comment now that I can't fly ships. E-Peen pirate #5432 can tell me to EFT up.
In the case of the thorax depending on fitting you consider 30-45% more dps to be crap in all situations?
Sorry but you are just pulling arguements out of your ass.
Or are you saying that dps drones needs a boost?
I would say that the "normal" qualifier would preclude ships like the Thorax - it after all has an unusually large drone bay for a cruiser.
And dps drones needing a boost? Perhaps but it would be best given in the form of hitpoints or speed versus outright damage. The real weakness of DPS drones is afterall the fact that your weapon systems are destructable.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:20:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Corstaad
Edited by: Corstaad on 21/04/2008 20:05:45
Sorry I'm not pulling stuff out of my arse. I'm actually playing the game not EFTing. You hate for me to mention this because your justified by EFT on why theres nothing wrong with them. Watch a small scale pvp video before the NoS nerf. You see almost every ship had little vampire trails coming off it. Now go to a active low sec system and do a scan for drones. Tell me what you find.
30% to 45% dmg isn't real damage do you understand that.
How isn't it real damage? Its more real then any turret due to turrets tracking and falloff. It also works even if you are jammed. If you do 400dps with turrets you think turning down another 150 is always worse then using ECM drones? Its not if you have someone else dedicated to jamming in you gang!
You can claim EFT numbers have no relevance as a lot of ppl pull numbers out of their arse and its the a general opinion that EFT has no weight in "real PvP". But it does mate. Give me one good argument why EFT isn't relevant. I don't think you can. All your arguements are based on whinyness and don't bear any weight at all.
The reason ppl use them in low sec is that they provide one very important thing that dps drones don't provide. The ability to disengage from a fight at the same time as it gives an dps taken, dps dealt ratio benefit.
Well comparing rax turns both ways, it also has higher chance jamming with ECM drones.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:37:00 -
[83]
corp mate tested his pilgrim against my ratting geddon other day. I had 5x light ecm drones with me, for situation where i get caught with my pants down.
over the course of a 5 minute spar, I got a single jam on him. Had it been a real fight that was going the same way, this would have allowed me to warp out to safety. however, the pilgrim ignored my drones because it wasnt a real fight and we didnt want to pop each others drones.
anectdotal evidence is anectdotal
Originally by: Meridius Dex
I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.21 20:43:00 -
[84]
ECMs are handy because:
(1) They give you a option to disengage in a really bad situation (a very important thing)
(2) They're cheap and fairly easy to skill into
(3) They are extremely potent vs ships with small sensor str and significant gank power (think some AFs, HACs, stuff of that sort)
Damage drones are handy because:
(1) Certain ones offer abilities which give you special abilities (warrior IIs for shaking off interceptors).
(2) DPS addition can mean more then ECM-ing the target, particularly if you're trying to overpower tanks in as little time as possible.
(3) They deal damage even when you are ECM-ed (which can be extremely handy).
(4) They can be used for counter-droning.
On ships where drone damage is a important part of overall damage output, damage drones generally offer better overall results for winning the fight - while gank ships which have a paltry buffer tend to do somewhat better with ECMs.
Also, vs bigger targets with high sensor str I generally prefer damage drones.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:13:00 -
[85]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Sionide
1) increase the fitting requirements for jammers (so only like 4 max can be fitted)
2) have a different ratio for jammed target vs jammer (jammer reuse being much, much longer)
3) not "jam" per se but act like distant ecm burst and just break lock.
4) decrease range so they actually have to be in target range like the rest of ecm ships (i.e. max 40-50 km range unoverloaded)
Which would make the ship totally pointless. ...and no one would fly it.
Key word is "either." Not suggesting all of them or even two of the list be applied, but that something around those suggestions.
And if you mean the counter is ECCM. Think about this, 6 BS all have to fit one module because of 1 ship. No, falcon isn't OP...</sarcasm>
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.04.21 21:59:00 -
[86]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 20:35:24
You can claim EFT numbers have no relevance as a lot of ppl pull numbers out of their arse and its the a general opinion that EFT has no weight in "real PvP". But it does mate. Give me one good argument why EFT isn't relevant. I don't think you can. All your arguements are based on whinyness and don't bear any weight at all.
EFT carries a degree of weight in an argument. It will tell the story of a ship's inherit capabilities given a certain fitting. But we all know that's only part of the story. Sure a gank bs can pump out 1k or more damage a second but that damage is only useful in a very small radius. The ship's entire success or failure in combat will be based around how well the gank ship pilot can get his BS into range against a webbed target.
Lots of arguments are given based on EFT generated stats but we all know EFT generated stats are rarely "realistic" in terms of actual capabilities in the hands of the average pilot of the ship. Thus, many EFT arguments are similar to high-school physics equations where you simply ignore those pesky realities and focus on the specific aspect of a situation you are attempting to measure. Arguments backed by EFT hold very little weight in reality as it simply displays the potential of a ship, and nothing more. Thre are dozens of factors that a pilot must manage in order to keep any ship in it's optimal engagement situation and these are generally more telling than any statistic printout.
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:27:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Corstaad
Its was a ruppy vs ruppy fight and he loaded a eccm instead of web which didn't do hardly anything.
If you are reffereing to our little Rup v Rup fights the othr night...the second fight i had eccm fitted and your drones didnt get a jam once? I foolishly let you get away if i remember correctly.
Anyways...back on topic...there is nothing wrong with ecm drones. They give solo players more oppertunities to fight ships they would normally loose to as well as giving the pilot a 'get out of jail free' card.
I now fit eccm instead of a web if i know i am fighting a cruiser with ecm drones. I don't miss the web cos when you get a jam he has no web for a bit and becuse of the eccm you don't get jammed.
The drones are fine by me.
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If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2008.04.21 22:41:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Forge Lag
If only ECCM modules did something usefull by themselves we would see less nerf ECM threads.
And if the other EWAR drones were on par.
And what good does your explosive hardener does you when I gank you in a mega?
Not all modules are useful all the time, so what.
You fit an explosive hardener in case you encounter explosive damage, you may regret not having fit something else if you don't encounter it... That's exactly the same thing with ECCM.
--
Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP! |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.21 23:00:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 00:41:44
Originally by: arbalesttom
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
QFMFT
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
Really, I've been in fights where not a single god damb target of the 6 I was trying to ECM was jammed. Yay for being pre-aligned, because 2003 unhardened shield hp doesn't last long when Mr Sniper 'pest takes an interest in you.
PS I flat out don't believe you, just in case that wasn't obvious. When I'm jamming BS (Recon IV, T2 racials, 3 distort amps, Sig Dispersion IV = strength just over 12, I consider I'm doing well if I jam 3 out of 6 BS targets at any one time. Jam strength 12+ on racials, 8+ on multis; ECCM'd Megathron sensor strength around 40: you do the maths - T2 multi has about a 20% chance to jam.
7 BS "permajammed"? Let's say "perma" means for 2 minutes: 6 cycles. Chance of all 7 being jammed = 0.2^7 = 0.0000128. Chance of this happening 6 times in a row = 0.0000128^6 = 4.4x10^-30
Chance that you're talking complete bull**** = 99.99999999999999999999999999956%
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:24:00 -
[90]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Sionide
Key word is "either."
I was aware of that... My reply still stands.
I understand, you are a very unskilled pilot that needs to fly a ship that has nearly a zero chance of dying and is OP and you don't want it to change. I get it.
Originally by: Sionide
And if you mean the counter is ECCM.
Originally by: GateScout
That is one method....but not one I choose to employ.
Regardless, if that is the tactic you want to employ. I was making an example of powerful just 1 falcon is.
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Sionide
P.S. Suggestion #4 would not make the falcon "useless," but put it on par with other recon ships (!) and actually puts any sort of risk to flying the falcon,
You're kidding, right?
At falcon at 40km is a dead falcon. Always....or should be. If a falcon engages your gang at 40km and isn't dead, cloaked or off-grid by the time a second jamming cycles starts, you need to seriously look at how you prepare. That's just pathetic...OR you were outmatched to begin with.
No, you are kidding. You want to fly a falcon, then I don't see why it shouldn't be in the heat of battle just like every other recon ship in the game.
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Sionide
just like when I fly my rapier in gang.
If nano'ing a falcon was possible, I would agree with you. I'd happily trade some jamming ability to nano a falcon...but that will never happen.
So why can't you nano it? It has 3 lows to the rapier's 4. Huginn also has 3 lows and they are nanoed...basically want you are saying is you don't know how to fit other modules to your falcon and are too lazy or dumb to think about it.
Hell, if my rapier could web 150km out, why would I need to nano it either. But I wouldn't say it can't be.
Originally by: GateScout
The falcon has no tank,
Yes, having 7 mid slows is no tank? You have no tank cause you fit it all with jammers cause you don't have to have a tank on it. moron.
Originally by: GateScout
no speed,
umm...read above, it's called nano/istab modules. A rapier has no speed either w/o them.
Originally by: GateScout
no dps,
You have 4 high slots of the 3 rapiers...god you epically fail.
Originally by: GateScout
and a chance based "weapon" system that is highly dependent on racial ship types.
Yes, it does...but with 7 jammers how much of a fail chance is it really?
Originally by: GateScout
Any well balanced gang should have a falcon out of action (dead, cloaked or off-grid) before he can get off a second jamming cycle (even if he's at 150km). If not...I'd say the problem isn't that the falcon is overpowered, but that your gangs are too limited in scope.
This has no barring on the argument. Never said there wasn't tactics against the falcon. The argument is the current power of the falcon as is.
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In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:35:00 -
[91]
To be honest I just read thru this whole post and didn't like where it went. I'm retracting almost everything I've said in it. Why because I broke my #1 rule of there is no 1vs1 balance in a team game. I'll still hold to it that ecm drone fights are like two ******s with whiffle ball bats clubbing each other but that my opinion.
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J Valkor
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 00:36:00 -
[92]
I like the forums. It gives me a list of targets.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 01:42:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Everyone Dies
Edited by: Everyone Dies on 21/04/2008 00:41:44
Originally by: arbalesttom
Ecm boats are even more lame, nerf them before you nerf ecm drones ccp.
QFMFT
I've been in gangs where we had 5-7 BS permajammed by one FALCON! Some if not most were fitting ECCM. ECM need to be looked at, seriously.
Zomg!!!
Nerf teh ECMs! |
GateScout
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Posted - 2008.04.22 02:50:00 -
[94]
Edited by: GateScout on 22/04/2008 02:52:13
Originally by: Sionide
I understand, you are a very unskilled pilot that needs to fly a ship that has nearly a zero chance of dying and is OP and you don't want it to change. I get it.
Oh. I get it. You have no counter-argument so you start personal attacks and go off on some rapier v. falcon tangent that has no bearing on what you consider an over-powered ship. How absurd. Thankfully, the folks at CCP disagree 100%.
Maybe if you came up with a decent argument, rather than your pathetic, emotional whines, the Devs might listen to you. However, based on your last post, the chance of that happening is hovering right around 0.
See you out there, Sionide. I'll be the guy jamming you.
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Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.22 03:47:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Fact: Falcons do not jam battleships a majority of the time.
LOL, you lose all crediblity with that "fact" or you are a complete noob.
I guess you are like one of those guys that say drakes suck at tanking using all t1 mods and not putting EM resists.
Originally by: gatescout
Maybe if you came up with a decent argument, rather than your pathetic, emotional whines, the Devs might listen to you. However, based on your last post, the chance of that happening is hovering right around 0.
See you out there, Sionide. I'll be the guy jamming you.
Hmm...where have I whined? I never knew stating facts was a whine. Nonetheless, like I said my alt is a falcon pilot and my corp mates are good falcon pilots. I careless if CCP nerfs it or not, though my unbaised opinion (unlike you) is that they need it.
And lol, sure come and jam me. I welcome it.
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.04.22 04:35:00 -
[96]
40km falcon with a nano and a tank, good luck jamming more than 1 target
also no drone bay so yea its damage really does suck
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pandymen
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:46:00 -
[97]
Ok, so I bit. I know he's gotta be trolling but I'll reply anyway.
For those of you who haven't thought about it before: Fact is, you will never encounter a falcon when you are solo. If you do, you are screwed, because he is not solo.
Originally by: Sionide
So why can't you nano it? It has 3 lows to the rapier's 4. Huginn also has 3 lows and they are nanoed...basically want you are saying is you don't know how to fit other modules to your falcon and are too lazy or dumb to think about it.
Umm...Several reasons.
1. Falcon is slower than the other recons. It takes more than 1 overdrive to even offset the difference between it and the rapier. That leaves you with 2 more to "nano" with.
2. It has 2 launcher slots and no drone bay. It has the worst dps of any recon...in fact, probably of any non mining ship in the game, except the hulk, which could prolly outdps a falcon while moving quicker with more turret slots.
3. Fitting anything other than signal distortion amps in the lows greatly lowers your chance to jam. You really want to believe a falcon can permajam BS's, but the fact is, a falcon cannot reliably permajam a single BS. Falcon pilots fit racials generally...so 1 of each type plus 1 extra caldari. When you go up against a single mega...you better hope that single gallente jammer with 60% chance jams...because your other jammers have pretty **** poor chances of jamming.
Getting rid of even 1 distortion amp to try to do anything else with a falcon even lowers that 60% chance.
Originally by: sinoide
Hell, if my rapier could web 150km out, why would I need to nano it either. But I wouldn't say it can't be.
Your rapier already has ridiculous range on its webber. It also works 100% of the time. I'll trade range for you if your webber becomes chance based and my ecm jams all the time at 35km range.
Originally by: Sionide
You have 4 high slots of the 3 rapiers...god you epically fail.
Yes, and only 2 of them can be fitted with launchers. And you have no drones.
Originally by: sionide
Yes, it does...but with 7 jammers how much of a fail chance is it really?
Well, just to break it down easier for you. Generally, to even pull off this long range stuff you talk about.. a falcon needs a sensor booster. That leaves 6 slots for jammers. Usually, you fit an mwd so you can actually live through bubbles and burn back to gates. That leaves 5 jammers.
Chance of jamming a single BS in a falcon:
Figure you have a racial jammer strength of roughly 12-13. The BS has a signal strength of 22.
You have a 13/22 (60%) to actually jam him with your single racial of his type.
You now have 4 non-racial jammers to dump on him in a desperate attempt to jam him before he pops you (you will get popped pretty quickly with your lack of tank, and drones hit you even when he gets jammed and his buddy keeps his lock). Chance of the non-racials working 4.33/22 (19%)
The chance of all of your jammers failing on 1 single BS = (Chance to fail w/ racial)*(Chance to fail with non-racial)^4
= .4 * .8 * .8 * .8 * .8 * .8 = 16% chance to fail on your first try against a single BS in a falcon. Hardly permajammed.
Chance to jam that BS for a minute - 60%
In this time, you are not jamming a single other ship, his drones are probably pounding on you, and his friends have already killed you.
That said, when you can spread over your 60% chances across the proper racial battleships, you have a chance to jam a few every cycle. Def not permajammed, but enough to keep them from killin ur m8s.
Fact is, if you want to dispute the number of jammers I used in this example or the types, then you really have no idea how one flies a falcon. I fly them often in small gangs, but I would never take them to a big fight because they are far too fragile. A blackbird does the job better tbh for that. No one complains about the lowly bb or scorp though...which I prefer for the job.
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pandymen
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:48:00 -
[98]
Edited by: pandymen on 22/04/2008 06:50:27
Originally by: Sionide
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Fact: Falcons do not jam battleships a majority of the time.
LOL, you lose all crediblity with that "fact" or you are a complete noob.
I guess you are like one of those guys that say drakes suck at tanking using all t1 mods and not putting EM resists.
Originally by: gatescout
Maybe if you came up with a decent argument, rather than your pathetic, emotional whines, the Devs might listen to you. However, based on your last post, the chance of that happening is hovering right around 0.
See you out there, Sionide. I'll be the guy jamming you.
Hmm...where have I whined? I never knew stating facts was a whine. Nonetheless, like I said my alt is a falcon pilot and my corp mates are good falcon pilots. I careless if CCP nerfs it or not, though my unbaised opinion (unlike you) is that they need it.
And lol, sure come and jam me. I welcome it.
Sionide,
When you keep talking about falcons actually fitting 7 jammers and having more or comparable dmg to other recons, I realize that you have never flown a falcon into combat.
In fact, I do not even think you have seen the fitting screen on one where it shows there being 2 launcher slots and no drone bay.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.22 06:59:00 -
[99]
Originally by: pandymen
Sionide,
When you keep talking about falcons actually fitting 7 jammers and having more or comparable dmg to other recons, I realize that you have never flown a falcon into combat.
In fact, I do not even think you have seen the fitting screen on one where it shows there being 2 launcher slots and no drone bay.
STill doesn't change the fact that falcons are overpowered.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Imaos
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:02:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Sionide
Hmm...where have I whined? I never knew stating facts was a whine.
Which facts? I even went back to read all your posts, but I couldn't find more than opinions. In fact there are very few posts in this thread with hard facts. And the people actually working the math aren't in your favor. Example from above:
Originally by: Sionide
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Fact: Falcons do not jam battleships a majority of the time.
LOL, you lose all crediblity with that "fact" or you are a complete noob.
I guess you are like one of those guys that say drakes suck at tanking using all t1 mods and not putting EM resists.
HIS FACT was actually shown some posts further up where the jamming chances were calculated. YOUR RESPONSE was less than useful for any discussion.
Quote:
Nonetheless, like I said my alt is a falcon pilot and my corp mates are good falcon pilots. I careless if CCP nerfs it or not, though my unbaised opinion (unlike you) is that they need it.
Don't know how the odds on your encounters are, but jamming is still chance based. The chance can be calculated and if you use a falcon alt instead of ECM drones ... .
It was said they easily jam 5-7 battleships. Therefore only one module per ship. That's about 60% jam chance. (Higher chance vs minmatar bs and much higher vs marauders) So it averages almost to every second cycle missed and chances are you miss more cycles in a row. Wouldn't call that permajamming. That's more like mass-annoying.
Back to thread: ECM drones. They can be good, they can be horrible. That's chance based. The 'overpowered' part is that you only need one success to abandon them and warp out in 1v1. Still nano is much more reliable to bail out. If you are up against a slow locker or don't want to submit to the fight use ECM. Else go for dps drones. If the target has any tank any damage you inflict more is good:
If the target reps/regenerates 80% of your dps and your drones would add 'only' 20% to your own dps the target will still die twice as fast.
Imaos
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Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Marathon Unit
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 07:08:00 -
[101]
Really there is a number off counters some that has already been mentioned:
- Dont fly solo (But kind of stoopid to say since drone boats can fly in gangs as well)
- Have a support ship fitting Projected ECCM
Really the only time a nerf is needed is when the only counter is to fit more of the same stuff on youre own boat. (i.e. old school nos)
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:09:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: pandymen
Sionide,
When you keep talking about falcons actually fitting 7 jammers and having more or comparable dmg to other recons, I realize that you have never flown a falcon into combat.
In fact, I do not even think you have seen the fitting screen on one where it shows there being 2 launcher slots and no drone bay.
STill doesn't change the fact that falcons are overpowered.
That's debatable. I'd prefer the notion that amarr and gallente recons need a buff.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the thread should be about drones... and maybe the weak sensor strength of minmatar ships.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.04.22 07:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
Really there is a number off counters some that has already been mentioned:
- Dont fly solo (But kind of stoopid to say since drone boats can fly in gangs as well)
- Have a support ship fitting Projected ECCM
Really the only time a nerf is needed is when the only counter is to fit more of the same stuff on youre own boat. (i.e. old school nos)
This is all *******s and it's been explained why it is so. Medium and Light ecm drones are too effective when considering ec900s and the skill requirements of these drones. They need a nerf.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Home 0f Bored Occultists
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 07:16:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: pandymen
Sionide,
When you keep talking about falcons actually fitting 7 jammers and having more or comparable dmg to other recons, I realize that you have never flown a falcon into combat.
In fact, I do not even think you have seen the fitting screen on one where it shows there being 2 launcher slots and no drone bay.
STill doesn't change the fact that falcons are overpowered.
That's debatable. I'd prefer the notion that amarr and gallente recons need a buff.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the thread should be about drones... and maybe the weak sensor strength of minmatar ships.
Imaos
Sure if you can buff the pilgrim and arazu so a single one of these ships can basically turn the tide of small to medium engagements just like the falcon can. Ofcourse you'd need to buff them beyond reason because both operate at closer range. It won't happen. The only thing that will happen some day is that falcon gets nerfed.
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[Video] Angel of War |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.04.22 08:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Corstaad
I'm just not liking the way decent fights have turned into who gets the lucky jams off and who can down the drones first. I'm sorry I like fighting people not drones.
Well... really depends on the fight and ships involved.
For instance, I had a nice Hurricane v Cyclone a few days ago (I was flying the gank-fit one instead of the standard dual-rep fit which I fly for gatecamping) - which does fit a ECCM.
Cyclone was using ECMs (3 meds, 2 lights) I was using damage drones (point of a gank ship is to melt faces, not jam people). I just ignored the drones and melted him - didn't get a jam even once.
At other times, particularly when flying a (non-ECCMed) cruiser (which have bad sensor str) I'll go for drones first - as I am not very likely to gank my target in the amount of time which I have before getting jammed on average.
I mean, you say you like fighting people, not drones - come on, you must've flown a Rifter at some point, killing anything bigger in a Rifter typically revolved on killing drones first and then killing the target.
I fly a Wolf now and then, same thing, melt drones first and then melt target... unless they're EM drones or target is something fragile.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:14:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 20:35:24
You can claim EFT numbers have no relevance as a lot of ppl pull numbers out of their arse and its the a general opinion that EFT has no weight in "real PvP". But it does mate. Give me one good argument why EFT isn't relevant. I don't think you can. All your arguements are based on whinyness and don't bear any weight at all.
EFT carries a degree of weight in an argument. It will tell the story of a ship's inherit capabilities given a certain fitting. But we all know that's only part of the story. Sure a gank bs can pump out 1k or more damage a second but that damage is only useful in a very small radius. The ship's entire success or failure in combat will be based around how well the gank ship pilot can get his BS into range against a webbed target.
Lots of arguments are given based on EFT generated stats but we all know EFT generated stats are rarely "realistic" in terms of actual capabilities in the hands of the average pilot of the ship. Thus, many EFT arguments are similar to high-school physics equations where you simply ignore those pesky realities and focus on the specific aspect of a situation you are attempting to measure. Arguments backed by EFT hold very little weight in reality as it simply displays the potential of a ship, and nothing more. Thre are dozens of factors that a pilot must manage in order to keep any ship in it's optimal engagement situation and these are generally more telling than any statistic printout.
I agree, and every time someone use EFT you have to take that into consideration. But how is the EFT numbers not relevant here???
I compared the drone dps which is always given as long as you do 4 clicks with you mouse button, right click - release drones - right click - engage target. There you go a guaranteed ~150 dps vs another cruiser (ok maybe a little bit less). When I compared it to turrets I used EFT numbers for turrets and I didn't take into consideration a thorax awful range and falloff and not tracking either I admit. But you know what? That only further points to dps drones giving a ship even a greater dps advantage! So if its 30-50% EFT dps lets make it 50-70% "real" dps considering you might be jammed etc.
If I told you, you would have 50-70% more "real" dps would you say "no thats worthless, ecm drones are still always better"??
Cpt Branko's summary of the pros and cons whether to pick ecm/dps drones is most excellent so I quote it again.
Quote:
ECMs are handy because:
(1) They give you a option to disengage in a really bad situation (a very important thing)
(2) They're cheap and fairly easy to skill into
(3) They are extremely potent vs ships with small sensor str and significant gank power (think some AFs, HACs, stuff of that sort)
Damage drones are handy because:
(1) Certain ones offer abilities which give you special abilities (warrior IIs for shaking off interceptors).
(2) DPS addition can mean more then ECM-ing the target, particularly if you're trying to overpower tanks in as little time as possible.
(3) They deal damage even when you are ECM-ed (which can be extremely handy).
(4) They can be used for counter-droning.
Originally by: Corstaad
I'm sorry I like fighting people not drones.
So this is really the reason why you don't like ECM drones. Not that they are overpowered. I'm glad we sorted that out.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Marathon Unit
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 09:51:00 -
[107]
Originally by: General Coochie
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 09:21:53
Edited by: General Coochie on 21/04/2008 08:47:18
Originally by: Corstaad
We did some testing last night and there was no noticable difference with the racial ECCM fitted against light ecm drones. Funny thing was mid fight I switched to a old drones overview setting and proceeded to wtf destroy my own drones .
So in your testing did you also count the number of jams vs a target? Cause I did today.
Thorax vs my alts harbinger (16 sensor strength which is high compared to minmatar cruisers I admit).
Test lasted 16min.
I used 5 medium ECM drones.
Harbinger was fit 7 heavy beam, ab, ship scan, 3 heatsinks, 2 tracking enhancers, 1 DCU II
Total cycles: 48
Nr of successful jam cycles: 16
Nr of unsuccessful jam cycles: 32
Time jammed: 320 sec or 5min
Time not jammed: 640 sec or 10min.
Chance of jam: 16/48 = 1/3 = 33% Or once every minute. Which means that in general you wont get first jam with 5 medium ECM drones until after 40sec. note that EFT lists 5 med ecm drones chance to jam a harbinger to 38.5% fairly accurate indeed.
If this was my thorax vs my own thorax fighting, same fitting. (5 electron II 2 magstabs II)
DPS ECM drones saved me from during these 16min: 124480
DPS damage drones would have done in these 16min: 151680
So why do I use ECM drones myeslf? Well if I am loosing / cant get close to a nanod target / etc, and get a jam cycle I can warp out.
Versatility > DPS
But in PvP performance 1v1 dps drones have advantage over ECM drones if not fit full gank, but thats irrelevant as a gank setup will die to a non gank setup. Also once dps drones has aggrod ECM drones they go down quick.
ECM drones also enables you to have luck and take on targets you otherwise would have lost against. However you can also have bad luck and not get a jam for 2min during that time ure ECM drones should be dead.
Now you some might say that ECM drones are superior as it enables say 5 thorax to easy take down a battleship without him locking.
Interesting facts then
5 thorax global jam chance against a megathron: 84.3% according to quick fit
A blackbirds chance to jam a megathron with 5 multispecs and 2 signal amps: 88%
Switching one rax for a blackbird looses you 530 turret dps if they are fully gank fitted with full skills (unlikely),
The 4 thoraxes left uses dps drones and gets 632 more dps.
And to end my post: How to handle ECM drones. Watch garmon's pvp video named Garmonation 2. In the very start he kills a deimos with ECM drones using a rupture with ECM drones. In response to "My rupture always looses to a thorax with ECM drones"
Yes gallente has bigger drone bays, minmatar has lesser sensor strength. But PvP has more to it then that. Like choosing dmg type so you can tear a HAC apart, and using neuts and nos to disable your opponent cause ure guns aren't using cap.
Then again its so easy blaming you loosing on "I was perma jammed the whole fight". So do you really want ECM drones nerfed? Cause it sure is an easy way explaining your looses..
This => End Of Thread IMO
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
XIII Legio
|
Posted - 2008.04.22 14:00:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 22/04/2008 14:01:05
I stated on page 3 effective counters to ECM boats/drones. I have yet to hear of the ECM whiners a reason why they won't work.
Why don't you fit smart bombs for a small gang where you're looking for a fight and know the enemy may have ECM drones? Any ship can fit them. ECM drones are weak and die easily.
Is it because it hurts your potential max DPS? I'd say being jammed kills your DPS more than fitting a smart bomb or two would.
FIT THE DAMN SMART BOMBS!
Friend or Foe missiles.
Again - DPS isn't everything, have a guided missile weapon boat (standard missile Kestrel, Assault Missile Caracal, Heavy missile Drake, Cruise missile Manticore/Raven, etc.). If you're jammed these missile will target the nearest thing *gasp* the ecm drones! 
Falcon is dealt with in a few ways.
- ECCM Sniper. Even if he jams you - he will waste a lot more ECM mods on your ship to keep you jammed - guess what that frees up your gang from the Falcon's jamming. Not every Falcon pilot has a bookmark for a perfect 249km jamming spot - in reality they're 100-200 km away - within range of most sniping BS.
- Inty/Nano + FoF/Disco Ship. Take your gang's fastest ship - have him head to the falcon at max speed. Warp your gang's disco/friend or Foe ship to the high speed ship that's on the Falcon. Either the Falcon leave because he's smart and knows he lost his range advantage - or you kill him - either way there's no more jamming.
I have yet to see an ECM whiner come up with a reason why these counters do not work.
Yes you have to become extremely specialized to be anti-ECM to kill these ships - but that's a fair trade since these ships are extremely specialized at what they do.
Again - use your brains, these counters are NOT expensive. They're NOT exclusive to any one race. Stop whining and trying to nerf a well balanced weapons system. Stop crying because your 1-dimensional gank+tank gang got beat by a more tactically diverse opponent.
I'll say it again - Nerfing ECM = Boost to BLOB and a boost to Nano ships.
Stop killing diversity in this game - fit a damn counter, and you WILL nullify the opponent's ECM.
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.22 23:39:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Sionide on 22/04/2008 23:41:04
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Sionide
Hmm...where have I whined? I never knew stating facts was a whine.
Which facts? I even went back to read all your posts, but I couldn't find more than opinions.
Did you see the part where I said they jam 150km from their target, potentially crippling up to 2-3 ships (which turns a 6v6 in't a 6v3), and are have virtually zero risk of dying (unless you completely suck as a falcon pilot).
Here is another fun fact. Of the daily fleet fights we have, 90% of the time both sides are fielding falcons, usually two. And if you people are really wanting me to believe that 1 falcon has problems jamming one BS, that is a load of crock and you need to learn how to fit your falcons.
But whatever, games play to the lowest common denominator. If a person sucks because they don't know how to fly or fit something, it's doubtful CCP will do anything, while the people that actually know what they are doing are using the ship to it's max potential. Honestly, I don't care either way, we use the ship as well.
For those of you think that the falcon is fine are a lost cause anyway, and if CCP ever do "nerf" it, you guys will be lost till someone gives you a fitting because it's obvious you can't think for yourselves. Any "nerf" will not make the falcon useless, it will take a time to adapt and things will balance out again. Just like the "nerf" to nanos (oops they are sort of back), and the "nerf" to jamming (oops it's back...god remember the crying back then to stop the nerf? waaaaaaaa again). It's the people that have really no idea of the max potential of the ship that cry and whine and to stop change, because they can not think for themselves.
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2008.04.22 23:48:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Falcon is dealt with in a few ways.
- ECCM Sniper. Even if he jams you - he will waste a lot more ECM mods on your ship to keep you jammed - guess what that frees up your gang from the Falcon's jamming. Not every Falcon pilot has a bookmark for a perfect 249km jamming spot - in reality they're 100-200 km away - within range of most sniping BS.
- Inty/Nano + FoF/Disco Ship. Take your gang's fastest ship - have him head to the falcon at max speed. Warp your gang's disco/friend or Foe ship to the high speed ship that's on the Falcon. Either the Falcon leave because he's smart and knows he lost his range advantage - or you kill him - either way there's no more jamming.
Also, a good counter is having your own falcon, better as their falcon +1.
The issue isn't that there isn't a counter. The issue is that so much worry and energy is needed to be applied to just one ship, and if there isn't utterly wrecks the other group, making it OP.
Personally, I if it jams one and on occasion two ships, that's fine, but more and more I see 2 falcons fielded in a group as small as 6 man, basically shutting down an equal size gang and with counters...hell, that includes us as well, but that doesn't make it wrong.
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.04.23 02:37:00 -
[111]
Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 23/04/2008 02:38:18
Every person that whines about ECM in general should really spend a month or two flying the silly things. You'll soon discover "Perma jam" isn't.
At least for a BS pilot, single smartbomb tends to solve this problem. Light drones also deals with these little buggers. Light drones also keep attacking after your jamed again as well. I tend to like the smartbomb option myself. makes pod catching a breeze. |
J Valkor
Invicta.
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 02:43:00 -
[112]
I'd actually be for diminishing returns on jammers. First one is at a 100%, second at 86%, and so on. |
pandymen
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 05:16:00 -
[113]
Edited by: pandymen on 23/04/2008 05:19:06
Originally by: Sionide
Did you see the part where I said they jam 150km from their target, potentially crippling up to 2-3 ships (which turns a 6v6 in't a 6v3), and are have virtually zero risk of dying (unless you completely suck as a falcon pilot).
Well, now we're talking 6 jammers maximum there btw, not the 7 you stated above if you want to jam from range (you want a sensor booster).
Originally by: Sionide
Here is another fun fact. Of the daily fleet fights we have, 90% of the time both sides are fielding falcons, usually two.
Really? Falcons in fleet fights? That's pretty stupid tbh. With the lag you get from fleet fights, recons in general die pretty quickly. ECM you see in 90-100% of fleet fights I'm sure, just not usually falcons. Scorps are better suited for that.
Originally by: Sionide
And if you people are really wanting me to believe that 1 falcon has problems jamming one BS, that is a load of crock and you need to learn how to fit your falcons.
No, it's not that a falcon will have problems jamming something on each cycle. When you spread the jams around, you're sure to get a few jams most of the time. You just don't "permajam" as you love to state it. There is no such thing. You may get a lucky streak with a ship or two for multiple cycles, but you cannot reliably lock down a specific ship; on the contrary, you can reliably jam at least one or two of the four ships you are spreading your jammers around on. Even that isn't a certainty, because all is left to chance.
That is much different than "permajamming." My math above just shows that it is very unlikely to get a string of jams on a specific ship you are trying to jam. Sorry, but fitting and pilot skill has very little to do with succeeding in a jam cycle. It's all probabilities.
It's an effective force multiplier. Just like command ships. Are command ships overpowered because they can make ppl go superfast, web at 75km, or tank like a beast? That's just how the ships were designed to give some options for your fleet. Honestly, what gang cannot have someone jump in a blackbird. It can almost jam as well as the falcon and costs ~5 mil versus 70+
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.04.23 08:56:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Sionide
Edited by: Sionide on 22/04/2008 23:41:04
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Sionide
Hmm...where have I whined? I never knew stating facts was a whine.
Which facts? I even went back to read all your posts, but I couldn't find more than opinions.
Did you see the part where I said they jam 150km from their target, potentially crippling up to 2-3 ships (which turns a 6v6 in't a 6v3), and are have virtually zero risk of dying (unless you completely suck as a falcon pilot).
Browsed the thread again and no I didn't see a single post with all that in it. I found it spread over multiple posts.
If one falcon is needed to cripple 2-3 ships you need to remove it fom the equation too: 6v6 becomes 5v3 or 5v4. And the drones and maybe FoF from the jammed ships are still working.
That are still 3 ships that could try to scare the falcon off. If he is warping around he can't jam. Also a single damp used by someone equally skilled in long distance jamming [lvl5 or you jam in falloff] has 30%+ chance per cycle to disable you. You are at the edge of your operating distance [sb].
You also said potentially crippling. If you use 2 modules per ship and are using racials (which at that distance is a must, multi would be in falloff reducing chances further) you get about 80% chance to jam one per cycle. Much less if your enemy didnt field the race's ships you expected. That takes out the falcon on your side (he is busy with jamming and not killing) and about 2 ships of your enemy. You might take out 3 in that case or maybe only one.
Quote:
Here is another fun fact. Of the daily fleet fights we have, 90% of the time both sides are fielding falcons, usually two.
Yay a fact.
Quote:
And if you people are really wanting me to believe that 1 falcon has problems jamming one BS, that is a load of crock and you need to learn how to fit your falcons.
Nobody said a falcon has a problem jamming one BS. That's bull**** and pure exaggeration. It was only said one module on a falcon has about 60% chance against a BS. module != ship. There was this funny statement that falcon could take out 6-7 bs on itself which would translate to 1 jammer per ship.
Quote:
But whatever, games play to the lowest common denominator. If a person sucks because they don't know how to fly or fit something, it's doubtful CCP will do anything, while the people that actually know what they are doing are using the ship to it's max potential. Honestly, I don't care either way, we use the ship as well.
The max jamming potenitial is limited by the game. You can only fit so much jamming gear on the ship. How that capability is used is up to the player, but it can't ever go over that game imposed cap. It is also up to the skill of the enemy to reduce the potential as good as they can.
Quote:
For those of you think that the falcon is fine are a lost cause anyway, and if CCP ever do "nerf" it, you guys will be lost till someone gives you a fitting because it's obvious you can't think for yourselves.
Maybe you need some premade fittings to counter...
Quote:
Just like the "nerf" to nanos (oops they are sort of back)
Didn't remember they were gone.
Quote:
, and the "nerf" to jamming (oops it's back...god remember the crying back then to stop the nerf?
Wasn't it boosted again on dedicated ship? How many non dedicated ship do you se around with ECM?
Quote:
It's the people that have really no idea of the max potential of the ship that cry and whine and to stop change, because they can not think for themselves.
Yes. Many a person screams for easy ways and don't want to coordinate with others, but if you coordinate falcons aren't that big of a problem, too. It is a double edged sword. If you think they need more counters: Can't have enough, but I don't think more are needed.
Imaos |
Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 09:05:00 -
[115]
Back to reducing the range of ECM. If the range of ECM were to be reduced or dampener got 50% more optimal:
Every ship in the fleet could fit one damp (and maybe a sb depending on lock range) and ECM boats wouldn't be any problem (>50% chance to reduce the lock range enough to put the jammer out of the equation). ECCM modules are effective enough as they are, but protect only your own ship. The damp would then protect all ships of your gang or would force the jammer to close in.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 21:02:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Sionide
Here is another fun fact. Of the daily fleet fights we have, 90% of the time both sides are fielding falcons, usually two.
Originally by: pandymen
Really? Falcons in fleet fights? That's pretty stupid tbh. With the lag you get from fleet fights, recons in general die pretty quickly. ECM you see in 90-100% of fleet fights I'm sure, just not usually falcons. Scorps are better suited for that.
Hmm...I should have clarified what I mean by fleet fights...not "fleet fights" per se but gang fights I guess (though it still called a fleet). I am talking about small->med size fights...like max 10v10.
Originally by: Sionide
And if you people are really wanting me to believe that 1 falcon has problems jamming one BS, that is a load of crock and you need to learn how to fit your falcons.
Originally by: pandymen
No, it's not that a falcon will have problems jamming something on each cycle. When you spread the jams around, you're sure to get a few jams most of the time. You just don't "permajam" ... "permajamming." My math above just shows that it is very unlikely to get a string of jams on a specific ship you are trying to jam. Sorry, but fitting and pilot skill has very little to do with succeeding in a jam cycle. It's all probabilities.
It's an effective force multiplier. Just like command ships. Are command ships overpowered because they can make ppl go superfast, web at 75km, or tank like a beast? That's just how the ships were designed to give some options for your fleet. Honestly, what gang cannot have someone jump in a blackbird. It can almost jam as well as the falcon and costs ~5 mil versus 70+
Hmm...I said "jamming" not "permajamming," but yes 1 falcon can chain jam ships which make it seem like "permajamming," since 2-3 cycles of jams is enough time for it to usually be the end of the ship.
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Sionide
Minmatar
THE FINAL STAND
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 21:12:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Sionide on 23/04/2008 21:12:58
Hmm...also something I noticed. I thought perhaps I made a mistake by stating "permajamming" somewhere so I read back through my posts and I never said "permajamming" once.
What these troll posters are doing is using someone else's words and then arguing with their terms and their posts with mine. So for the poster who said he read through my previous posts and then argues about "permajamming" I never said it once.
So to him:
You need to L2READ...and furthermore L2COMPREHENDWHATURREADING.
There's a fact for you.
===
In Eve, never bring a knife to a knife fight.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.04.23 22:46:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 23/04/2008 22:47:21
Hammerhead 2s are obviously overpowered, because they can perma pop my falcon fairly quickly!
Nerf damage drones please.
Well the falcon is using 7 jammers and is sitting at 150, which means a single nonscripted damp will put him out of lock range
I wouldn't expect your 6 battleship gangs to know what anything is besides gank and tank though.
Sionide: other people have used it almost constantly when mentioning a falcon. |
pandymen
The Graduates
Brutally Clever Empire
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 05:44:00 -
[119]
Edited by: pandymen on 24/04/2008 05:45:29
Originally by: Sionide
Edited by: Sionide on 23/04/2008 21:12:58
Hmm...also something I noticed. I thought perhaps I made a mistake by stating "permajamming" somewhere so I read back through my posts and I never said "permajamming" once.
What these troll posters are doing is using someone else's words and then arguing with their terms and their posts with mine. So for the poster who said he read through my previous posts and then argues about "permajamming" I never said it once.
So to him:
You need to L2READ...and furthermore L2COMPREHENDWHATURREADING.
There's a fact for you.
Well, you pretty much implied that a falcon can permajam 3 out of the 6 BS's in a gang it is facing. You stated it can cripple 3 BS's out of 6 in a fleet. I don't see how killing lock for just 20 seconds on a few ships in a fleet is "crippling." Crippling to me implies that it will consistently jam those 3 ships for the duration of the fight. 20 seconds and after that, any of those ships can sick their drones on the falcon, snipe at it, jet towards it, damp it, etc.
Because, tbh, in a 6v6 fight, ships don't go instapop like they do in large fleet fights.
And btw, I get your point about seeing the falcon in fleets. Still though, the fact remains the falcon is really no more powerful than any other ewar ship. It is just harder to kill in small gangs because it can cloak and warp off....in which case, you don't kill it, but you have effectively removed it from battle.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Marathon Unit
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Posted - 2008.04.24 07:28:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Corstaad
This is not suppose to be ECM nerf thread.
Youre thread is critically hit by whine for wrecking damage.
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Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 07:39:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Sionide
Edited by: Sionide on 23/04/2008 21:12:58
Hmm...also something I noticed. I thought perhaps I made a mistake by stating "permajamming" somewhere so I read back through my posts and I never said "permajamming" once.
Ok. You never used that word itself. You just described what the others in this thread called permajamming and replied to it.
Originally by: Sionide
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Fact: Falcons do not jam battleships a majority of the time.
LOL, you lose all crediblity with that "fact" or you are a complete noob.
Originally by: Sionide
Did you see the part where I said they jam 150km from their target, potentially crippling up to 2-3 ships (which turns a 6v6 in't a 6v3), and are have virtually zero risk of dying (unless you completely suck as a falcon pilot).
Actually you got me there. I couldn't find a post of yours in the thread (at the time of this writing) prior to the quoted were you literally wrote what you 'quoted' there. I could find the 150km and the no dying. I was looking for the post which was along the lines bring 2 falcons and remove the enemy gang from the fight.
Quote:
What these troll posters are doing is using someone else's words and then arguing with their terms and their posts with mine. So for the poster who said he read through my previous posts and then argues about "permajamming" I never said it once.
So to him:
You need to L2READ...
Sorry. I am more for concepts and semantic than actual words. Which leads to:
Quote:
and furthermore L2COMPREHENDWHATURREADING.
Comprehension isn't the problem. You'll describe in your posts what other call permajamming. If someone says they arent as good you claim they are better. You make it sound like you can remove 3 bs from the entire fight without fail, but you wont call it permajamming.
Facts for you:
1) 150km is max targetting unless you get some help. So you should be closer unless you want someone to pull away from you and break your lock that way. Long distance jamming lvl5 is also a must or you end up adding the randomness of falloff to the jammer (which should be a racial).
->100km is much more realistical as you still are safe enough and can use multis if you dont want to go all out racials.
Quote:
I understand, you are a very unskilled pilot that needs to fly a ship that has nearly a zero chance of dying and is OP and you don't want it to change. I get it.
You need all skills to lvl5 in regard to jamming and targetting to make your proposals work. Every one else is unskilled?
2) If you nano op you'll loose a significant amount of ECM strength. Yay. Nanoing works.
Imaos
PS: Put all your arguments why falcons are so overpowered in a single post and don't bring the dominix is overpowered because you can fit guns, strong tank and field drones argument. Both ships can't do all that at the same time.
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.04.24 07:52:00 -
[122]
Originally by: pandymen
And btw, I get your point about seeing the falcon in fleets. Still though, the fact remains the falcon is really no more powerful than any other ewar ship. It is just harder to kill in small gangs because it can cloak and warp off....in which case, you don't kill it, but you have effectively removed it from battle.
The falcon is more powerful in fleets as other races recons. The other ewar has either to short range or is too limited in effect:
Damps could cripple sniper and far away support even after the nerf, but their optimal where they are guaranteed to work is 45km with long distance jamming lvl5. You are either close enough and remove a ship from the fight (and get blown up by the rest as ewar is your tank) or are far enough away to use less dampeners per ship, but they only work half of the time as they are working in falloff. And in that case they are only protecting yourself unless in a sniper fight.
TDs are even worse as they don't affect missiles/drones and do are pretty limited from the start on.
The webs are quite nice to keep someone in fight, or at distance, but not as effective as ECM in gangs. Don't even talk about painters. Signature radius could play a bigger role to make them really useful.
A recon ship should be able to take out 2 ships more or less reliable to be feasible to use. The ECM boats are the only ones that can do it in any circumstance so they are more 'versatile' in deployment.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 08:25:00 -
[123]
Wow, did this thread ever go offtopic.
Why are you all crying about the falcon again? I'd like to remind you, that the upper bar on EW power is UNCHANGED. The Rook has _always_ been able to do this.
I'd also like to remind you that a Falcon does exactly one thing, and that's jamming stuff. It doesn't do the 200dps that an Arazu does. It cannot tackle, it cannot web. It certainly has no hope of breaking a tank on anything, ever.
It's the very definition of a 'fleet support ship'. Y'know, like how an interceptor, or interdictor might be. Things that reward someone for a well constructed fleet.
But anyway, back on topic. ECM drones are the new multispec - everyone can fit them (although ironically, Caldari are the ones with the smallest dronebay) and whilst permanently jammed doesn't happen, getting jammed once can tip a fight balance. I therefore contend they're too good at what they do, and need to have the same treatment as ECMs did backwhen. Or an increase in bandwidth or something.
Oh, and if we could fix it so they show a jamming countdown, like ECMs do, that'ld be lovely.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 09:08:00 -
[124]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Wow, did this thread ever go offtopic.
Welcome back to topic!
Quote:
Why are you all crying about the falcon again? I'd like to remind you, that the upper bar on EW power is UNCHANGED. The Rook has _always_ been able to do this.
I'd also like to remind you that a Falcon does exactly one thing, and that's jamming stuff. It doesn't do the 200dps that an Arazu does. It cannot tackle, it cannot web. It certainly has no hope of breaking a tank on anything, ever.
It's the very definition of a 'fleet support ship'. Y'know, like how an interceptor, or interdictor might be. Things that reward someone for a well constructed fleet.
Nice summary. Signed.
Quote:
But anyway, back on topic. ECM drones are the new multispec - everyone can fit them (although ironically, Caldari are the ones with the smallest dronebay) and whilst permanently jammed doesn't happen, getting jammed once can tip a fight balance. I therefore contend they're too good at what they do, and need to have the same treatment as ECMs did backwhen. Or an increase in bandwidth or something.
Or let the jam break when taking damage. ... I think they are quite balanced as you have to forfeit considerable drone damage to use them. Good for 1v1 when you can't nano or in addition to that, but nothing more.
Quote:
Oh, and if we could fix it so they show a jamming countdown, like ECMs do, that'ld be lovely.
More info on drone activity is always nice.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 10:00:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
40km falcon with a nano and a tank, good luck jamming more than 1 target
also no drone bay so yea its damage really does suck
yeah, but it can fit two heavy missile launchers!
PS LOL @ the "nano-falcon" idea. I'd be surprised if it can hit 3Km/s in a straight line.
PS Double LOL @ the tanked falcon. Great, a better tank than a Caracal, and I can use my two heavy missile launchers to slaughter hy helpless opponents!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
El'Tar
Caldari
Genos Occidere
|
Posted - 2008.04.24 10:01:00 -
[126]
It might be able to solo plated megathrons!
________________________________________________
MY BIG BROTHER BEING JESUS ******* CHRIST IN HIS BATTLEWAGON OF DOOM
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