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Local is essential for War! Period!

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Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:17:00 - [91] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 16:19:14 Originally by: Furb Killer Lmao, you have no idea what pirating is. How much isk did you make from the ibis? And all the kestrel's? Actually Mr Jolly, one of my corp m8s killed an ibis the other day that had a dread BP in it so there you go. Originally by: Furb Killer And why exactly would remove local hurt you? So you cant run anymore when enemies come... You wouldn't find me without local!
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:19:00 - [92] Originally by: Kale Kold Actually Mr Jolly, one of my corp m8s killed an ibis the other day that had a dread BP in it so there you go. Yeah this really contributes to the debate, gg. Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:20:00 - [93] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Ad Hominem!
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:21:00 - [94] I asked you how local helped you, not how local helped us. Finding you is btw pretty easy. I have played long in low sec, and i dont recall i ever didnt notice a gatecamp i went through...
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:21:00 - [95] let this thread die, op is clearly a moron. learn to adapt just like everyone else playing
Cordran Li Gallente The Really Awesome Players Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:22:00 - [96] What do you mean by "an argument hasn't been made to replace local?"
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:22:00 - [97] Originally by: ArmyOfMe let this thread die, op is clearly a moron. learn to adapt just like everyone else playing Ah an intelligent answer from an old enemy ...oh wait!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Cordran Li What do you mean by "an argument hasn't been made to replace local?" Well what is it then? because nobody can make one that stands scrutiny!
Cordran Li Gallente The Really Awesome Players Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:27:00 - [99] You didn't answer my question.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:33:00 - [100] Originally by: Cordran Li You didn't answer my question. An argument has not been made that warrants the Local channel being examined to see of it is overpowered or is needing to be replaced by another intel tool. As far as i am aware the Local channel is available to everybody in exactly the same capacity so as not to give any particular group of people an unfair advantage. This has so far to be challenged in any decent and intelligent way, other than 'waaaa i tried to gank that macro miner and he logged when i entered system, waaa'.

Caiman Graystock Quantum of Solace	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:39:00 - [101] Why the sudden surge of threads about this, are they actually considering removing local?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:41:00 - [102] Originally by: Caiman Graystock Why the sudden surge of threads about this, are they actually considering removing local? It has been said that Local is being changed, although i can't find the dev post now.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Ad Hominem! What? What a joke.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:55:00 - [104] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 16:55:09 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Ad Hominem! What? What a joke. Ad Hominem! Stay on topic please.
Col Callahan Caldari DAB	Posted - 2008.04.27 17:14:00 - [105] Edited by: Col Callahan on 27/04/2008 17:20:03 OK, PVP is much "easier" to stack odds in ether or favor. so in turn a fleet will not engage a fleet fight they are not going to win. In turn no much fighting goes on unless you find a equal force to fight thats also willing to fight or trap a smaller fleet some how. Now care bear side, with this intel, all you have to do is pull a omg log-off-ski and your safe once a red or nute drops in local. yet again. pvp suffers. In real life fighting powers use radar to scan down and fight targets. 140AU safe spots are not commin so the argument is not valid that fleets could hide there all the time. if you wish to be safe then have scouts and have radar out all the time. maybe a scanner setting that scans skill that allows for Early warning systems from your scanner. if something is with in 5AU incoming at lvl one and 50 AU at lvl 5 with refesh rates of like 10 secs. To sume it up, local kinda takes the fun out of opening up the map.....seeing were there is a lone rating . ploting a course and scaning him down for a sweet stealth gank. what I wouldn't give for the days back when you could sneak up on some one in a belt....... and on that note, can't wait to see belts go to. SCANING WTF, not local free bee.
El Mauru Amarr The Kobayashi Maru Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.27 17:23:00 - [106] Originally by: Primnproper Personally i think that they should replace local with a system based on submarine sonar with active and passive modes and maybe a 5-10 au range on passive and 100 au range on active but of course using active would pin point you and shout your presence to every one in system. The data from this system would of course have to be shown immediately on some sort of long range overview so that you didn't have to spam the scan button all the time. A system like that would not end wars it would lead to more interesting wars where the gathering of intel was a risky and interesting business that was an intergral part of warfare, much like it is in real war. I'd like to highlight this as an excellent idea in an otherwise sub-par thread. IMHO a person should appear in local and as an "active beacon" in the following cases: 1. He/she has activated a module (MWD, mining laser, weapons). 2. He/She has typed in local There should be like a 2-3 minute timer on this. In case 1 everybody could do a warp-to at a random point about 50-200KM from the person. After this period the person disappears from local again. This would not stop people from finding targets to pewpew, but filters out AFK people and allows for masking fleets. I.e.: Intel gathering helps avoid traps but does not prevent one from finding pvp.
Trathen	Posted - 2008.04.27 17:31:00 - [107] Hey! Biters! Originally by: Trathen I definitely think CCP could take a look at some sub sims to get some inspiration.
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.04.27 17:50:00 - [108] Originally by: Kale Kold Local is essential for War! Period! Please think this through people, local and war is at the very heart of EVE and a change by getting rid of either will change EVE (for the worst) forever. Trammel and Felluca, anyone???? HAHAHA war is not the heart of eve... 0.0 is.. try living out there. local is beneficial to both attackers and defenders... everyone stop being little girls and live with teh fact that noone is goign to tell you if your going to be robbed mugged or shot in real life... and noone SHOULD tell you (automatically) if your about to be ganked in a videa game... get over it... insurance payouts are already to high as it is. live with dying _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Ringo Jeicha Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:02:00 - [109] Ad hominem: It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument. It is also used when an opponent is unable to find fault with an argument, yet for various reasons, the opponent disagrees with it. With other words, every time he said that, he couldnt find anything to back it up. Sort of a geeky did to, did not.
Primnproper	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:04:00 - [110] Originally by: El Mauru I'd like to highlight this as an excellent idea in an otherwise sub-par thread. IMHO a person should appear in local and as an "active beacon" in the following cases: 1. He/she has activated a module (MWD, mining laser, weapons). 2. He/She has typed in local There should be like a 2-3 minute timer on this. In case 1 everybody could do a warp-to at a random point about 50-200KM from the person. After this period the person disappears from local again. This would not stop people from finding targets to pewpew, but filters out AFK people and allows for masking fleets. I.e.: Intel gathering helps avoid traps but does not prevent one from finding pvp. I like the idea of warping or using mods making you show (to anyone in range) but not as a warpable beacon, i think that would overpower the system in favour of incomming hostiles. It could bring in new mechanics too, like going into silent running and sit there without any mods turned on, though maybe for proper silent running you'd need to power down your ship with maybe a 30 second power up/down time so that you can't just disappear instantly and so that you can't instantly pounce without giving away your presence.

Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:13:00 - [111] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Commander Criton Simply replace local with a stats window when you look at the local channel all you see is basic information here is an example: There is 16 players with neutral standings in the system There is 5 players with Negative standings in the system There is 97 war targets in the system There is 1 Player with good standings in the system And how do you Know their names? Know their age? Check their title? Check their bio? Check their corp? Check their alliance? These are all required intel needs! That's the entire reason why local (and it's functionality) should be nerfed. You can see too much too easily. You should not be able to see exactly who is in the system at all times, as this forces (amongst other things) blob warfare to happen. The way local works now, it simply ruins wars, and makes life hellishly easy for griefers, macro'ers, farmers and alts (and those last 3 groups especially benefit from local as it is now),especially with BACON to support this. Before trying to defend something, try and defend it from the point of view of the issue, not from your point of view. Also, if you want to diss me because of my corp, check my employment history first. A EVE History Wiki
Lee Thrace Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:13:00 - [112] Originally by: Kale Kold Please think this through people, local and war is at the very heart of EVE and a change by getting rid of either will change EVE (for the worst) forever. Carebears have ruined every single MMO where their whines have been yielded to. how can you be sure this will change eve for the worst? that sounds like your opinion m8. i must say i have been looking forward to local being gone since i started eve back in 2005! just think of all the not knowing that will come of it. my heart starts racin'just as i think of it :) goes out to get pacemaker really, dont say no before you try it. people will always find a way to gather intel in another way.
Piotr Anatolev Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:26:00 - [113] Originally by: Kale Kold Local is essential for War! Period! Allow me to disagree. Players should have to build and deploy their own robotic sentry networks and relays to populate the map with dots of whatever intel they would like on it - as well as local. Lets say you have an enmy blob at station, you place a covert ops there and voila you have those pilots thats on the same grid as the covert showing up in local. Or if you had a covert sensor sentry on the station grid you d get the same result. There could be tactical and stratecgic categories of sensor sentry probes. Those that give intel on the grid they are deployed inside, those that give intel on the whole system and those that give intel on the system and surrounding ones within x lighyears. They should require fuel to operate, all models except the smallest ones. They should also have a limited lifespan which could be exteded through repairs. Whats essential with fuels and repairs is that a network of sensor sentries requires maintenance but over longer period of times than POS s. they should also be scannable and destroyable but not a simple pushover to find and take out. Mind you taking out nodes in an enemies intel network will attract some attention - great for creating diversions. Theres so many interesting options to replace local with that it makes you wonder why the current implementation has been dragged along all these years.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Lee Thrace i must say i have been looking forward to local being gone since i started eve back in 2005! just think of all the not knowing that will come of it. Yeah your gonna have to take your entire fleet with you at all times, just incase you meet another blob which you can't see.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:36:00 - [115] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Lee Thrace i must say i have been looking forward to local being gone since i started eve back in 2005! just think of all the not knowing that will come of it. Yeah your gonna have to take your entire fleet with you at all times, just incase you meet another blob which you can't see. Unless large blobs / fleets are the very thing that do appear on the scanner. The argument for removing local has come a long way from just getting rid of it: you really need to keep up. C. A new look at Local - IDEA
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:38:00 - [116] Originally by: Cailais Unless large blobs / fleets are the very thing that do appear on the scanner. The argument for removing local has come a long way from just getting rid of it: you really need to keep up. Ok, so what constitutes a large fleet/blob? 5 ships?, 10 ships?, 15 ships?, 20 ships?, 50 ships? You see what i did there? It's a stupid idea!
Cordran Li Gallente The Really Awesome Players Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:47:00 - [117] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Cailais Unless large blobs / fleets are the very thing that do appear on the scanner. The argument for removing local has come a long way from just getting rid of it: you really need to keep up. Ok, so what constitutes a large fleet/blob? 5 ships?, 10 ships?, 15 ships?, 20 ships?, 50 ships? You see what i did there? It's a stupid idea! Ad hominem
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:53:00 - [118] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Cailais Unless large blobs / fleets are the very thing that do appear on the scanner. The argument for removing local has come a long way from just getting rid of it: you really need to keep up. Ok, so what constitutes a large fleet/blob? 5 ships?, 10 ships?, 15 ships?, 20 ships?, 50 ships? You see what i did there? It's a stupid idea! Well you might see it as a stupid idea. Luckily we dont have to rely upon just numbers of ships as all ships have a Signature Radius which roughly corresponds to their size. Total the Signature Radius of these ships and you get a overall Signature Radius in one area: if it exceeds a given value those players are revealed on scan or in the local chat window. Now the area in which the sigs 'add up' is open for debate and the value at which a blob must be to exceed the 'fog of war' is open to debate. Ive further argued elsewhere that this 'fog of war' can be tied into environments - meaning it may not need be a static value across systems but can change by locality. Therefore there might be small areas (like gas clouds, near stars, specific belts etc) where you can 'hide' a large fleet - just as there will be areas where you cannot hide even a small frigate. So in answer to your question, no I dont 'see what you did there' and posting 'thats a stupid idea' doesnt advance the topic at all. C. A new look at Local - IDEA
Anubis Xian Vertigo One	Posted - 2008.04.27 19:05:00 - [119] what is going to happen if local is removed? Tactical Skill. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 19:11:00 - [120] Originally by: Anubis Xian what is going to happen if local is removed? Tactical Skill. Explain please.



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