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Local is essential for War! Period!

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Seth Tiburius Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.28 00:24:00 - [151] Originally by: Cailais I understand where youre coming from - but how often do you see gangs of 3 inties and a EAS frigate? This might be the case if people want to fly 'under the radar' so to speak though. Not necessarily a bad thing, as the majority are also advocating small gang fights, as opposed to larger blobs. Originally by: Cailais Also Local equates to player numbers not ship types. Currently if 4 people jump into a system and Im ratting in my curse I might dock. Why? Well Ive no idea if theyre in 4 BSs, 3 Rapiers and a Carrier or 3 Inties and a EAS so I dock to be on the safe side. Which is the opposite of the system proposed I guess (disregarding the number of pilots, and just looking at signature radius); something that can be solved with a hybrid system with an offset for the number of ships, and then ad the signature radius on top of that. But I really like the idea of passive/active scanning, messing with the chance of being scanned down perhaps? E.g. if someone's ratting and using his scanner in an active mode, he's going to be easier to find, but also have the advantage of seeing any incoming boogies from a farther distance or with more detail.
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.04.28 00:57:00 - [152] Local is far too overpowered for war, you dont have to do anything to get all this intel which can give you a fair idea of if your going to win or not, meaning a smart FC can pick and choose his winning battles very often. By making it harder to get intel you open the floor to more pvp, hunting people will be harder but the reward is that its much easier to sneak up on them. For the war debate, I agree with an idea suggested earlier in the thread, stats should be made available such as 10 war targets have passed through this system in the last hour/30mins/5mins, giving you some clue as to when to start hunting for them.
TimGascoigne	Posted - 2008.04.28 01:22:00 - [153] Originally by: Colonel Rykef Local is far too overpowered for war, you dont have to do anything to get all this intel which can give you a fair idea of if your going to win or not, meaning a smart FC can pick and choose his winning battles very often. By making it harder to get intel you open the floor to more pvp, hunting people will be harder but the reward is that its much easier to sneak up on them. For the war debate, I agree with an idea suggested earlier in the thread, stats should be made available such as 10 war targets have passed through this system in the last hour/30mins/5mins, giving you some clue as to when to start hunting for them. dude this game has over 4000 solar systems just finding the correct system is a challenge in itself. Also all because you can gauge numbers does not mean (A) thats all of them because who knows how many reinforcements lay in wait behind the next gate. (B) the number of times I have been in a fight which we should have won and then super capitals are cyno'ed in (C) more numbers does not mean victory at all I have been in gangs of 30 people and being victorious against gangs of 50 people and of course naturally I have been in the reverse shoes and lost. So what are you going to do replace local with something that is all but local in name...... because if you do then you open the way for a more complicated interface and bugs. And if you don't then you will have to undock in a very large blob every time to ensure you have the upper hand and this will make particularly 0.0 inaccessible to smaller organisations which corp used to be.
Dr Zoidbeirg	Posted - 2008.04.28 01:26:00 - [154] Have a "local" type window which you have to refresh manually. Or a system scanner which shows you whats there but not where (also manual refresh only).
TimGascoigne	Posted - 2008.04.28 01:30:00 - [155] Originally by: Dr Zoidbeirg Have a "local" type window which you have to refresh manually. Or a system scanner which shows you whats there but not where (also manual refresh only). I think the code writers will be making the macro for this even before it is launched lol
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.28 01:45:00 - [156] Originally by: Cailais I understand where youre coming from - but how often do you see gangs of 3 inties and a EAS frigate? Also Local equates to player numbers not ship types. Currently if 4 people jump into a system and Im ratting in my curse I might dock. Why? Well Ive no idea if theyre in 4 BSs, 3 Rapiers and a Carrier or 3 Inties and a EAS so I dock to be on the safe side. However, Id happily take on 3 Inties and an EAS in curse. Itd probably be quite a good fight aswell. (Also youre using the extreme end of the ship scale. 2 cruisers are roughly the same size sig radius wise as 1 BC). What Im driving at is by providing a degree of uncertainty theres an added level of tactical consideration. - Lets say you jump into a system with 15 BSs. The system looks empty and so you settle down to camp the gate. Unfortunately your blob of BS is blatantly obvious to everyone - what's not obvious to your fleet is the 20 BSs dispersed across the system hidden amongst the radiation of the belts and planets... I am using the extreme case because its the easiest to make a clear example of and because its the easiest to exploit. You've got 20 BS, what is to say instead you don't have 200 interceptors? If you can hide fleets then you have the same problem as before just in a different manner. No one camps except with bait and a bubble and fast tackler then the rest of the fleet hides. I.E. your change doesn't fix the problem it just makes the problem look different Vote Goumindong for CSM
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.28 02:04:00 - [157] I don't like local. I want it gone. If you would like to argue about PvP credentials then please be my guest. I'm fairly sure my corp and alliance ticker speak for themselves. And now an example!! Recently we declared war on an alliance. We moved all our stuff and got stuck in. At first things went well. We killed them, they killed us. Then we killed them a little too much and they stopped playing. They huddled in their home system. Every time I jumped into this system to get a fight what I actually got was blobs camping all the gates because they knew straight away that I was there. Result - Either they all docked or I got blobbed. No fun. Without local I could jump in and cruise around looking for someone to kill. This has an upside and a downside for me. The upside is that they don't know I'm there until I do something. The downside is I don't know if they are there at all and if they are there could be 50 of them If they are smart and in gang that means they could all warp on top of me at once. This provides a little excitement in my life. Now I need to be aware of what's going on. This is merely my opinion on the matter. I just figured I'd add my 2 cents as you seem to be blasting other posters based on their perceived lack of PvP experience. I'm just talking from the perspective of someone who does, in fact, participate in PvP and wars on a pretty regular basis. -
Spacy Tracy Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.28 02:28:00 - [158] Originally by: Novemb3r Then we killed them a little too much and they stopped playing. They huddled in their home system. Every time I jumped into this system to get a fight what I actually got was blobs camping all the gates because they knew straight away that I was there. Result - Either they all docked or I got blobbed. No fun. Just lol. How about a module you could mount that would make outposts disappear, jettisoning all contents and inhabitants into space when you arrive? If there was ever a perfect example of how the desire to remove local is simply the desire to get ganks served up on a silver platter, it is this. It's amazing to me how many convoluted ways people have come up with to try and smokescreen "I want everyone to die before me".
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.28 03:09:00 - [159] Originally by: Spacy Tracy Just lol. How about a module you could mount that would make outposts disappear, jettisoning all contents and inhabitants into space when you arrive? If there was ever a perfect example of how the desire to remove local is simply the desire to get ganks served up on a silver platter, it is this. It's amazing to me how many convoluted ways people have come up with to try and smokescreen "I want everyone to die before me". Ganks are of no interest to me. It has nothing to do with people being easier for me to kill. I don't care if they dock up. They can all run for the hills, cancel their accounts and go play WoW when I enter local for all I care. It doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that they have the chance to do this for free as soon as I enter local. Without having to put in any effort. If I want to kill them I have to come in, avoid the gate camp, then scan or probe down someone and hope that they are still there when I warp in and there's not 50 other guys waiting to drop capitals on my head. All they have to do is sit there with local open and hit "dock" as soon as I jump in. They don't have to think or pay attention. They don't have to do anything. All I'm saying is make it take at least a bit of effort to know I'm there. Have a scout on the gate. Have a module that scans for me. I don't care if they know I'm there and 100 of them dock when I come in in a shuttle. They just shouldn't get that info for free. -
Xioden Acap Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.04.28 03:23:00 - [160] Originally by: Novemb3r Originally by: Spacy Tracy Just lol. How about a module you could mount that would make outposts disappear, jettisoning all contents and inhabitants into space when you arrive? If there was ever a perfect example of how the desire to remove local is simply the desire to get ganks served up on a silver platter, it is this. It's amazing to me how many convoluted ways people have come up with to try and smokescreen "I want everyone to die before me". Ganks are of no interest to me. It has nothing to do with people being easier for me to kill. I don't care if they dock up. They can all run for the hills, cancel their accounts and go play WoW when I enter local for all I care. It doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that they have the chance to do this for free as soon as. I enter local. Without having to put in any effort. If I want to kill them I have to come in, avoid the gate camp, then scan or probe down someone and hope that they are still there when I warp in and there's not 50 other guys waiting to drop capitals on my head. All they have to do is sit there with local open and hit "dock" as soon as I jump in. They don't have to think or pay attention. They don't have to do anything. All I'm saying is make it take at least a bit of effort to know I'm there. Have a scout on the gate. Have a module that scans for me. I don't care if they know I'm there and 100 of them dock when I come in in a shuttle. They just shouldn't get that info for free. For a second lets say local is completely removed. So now people have to rely on the scanner to check for potential hostiles. So now your potential targets instead of watching local, have to keep spamming their directional scanner, once they see an unidentified ship, they'll dock up much like they do when they would have seen you in local. Now the only difference is you still have to try and scan out your targets, you just don't know if they're there to begin with, and your potential targets have to sit their spamming their scanner constantly. It also might just be my imagination, but it just seems like everyone screaming about removing local in one form or another seem to overlook the fact that they won't have local either... But bottom line something should potentially change, its just a matter in my opinion of making sure the change isn't to something annoying. It's still a game at the end of the day. Spamming scanner or having to sit at a gate to watch for potential hostiles is annoying and not what most people would consider fun.

Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.04.28 03:29:00 - [161] Originally by: Xioden Acap For a second lets say local is completely removed. So now people have to rely on the scanner to check for potential hostiles. So now your potential targets instead of watching local, have to keep spamming their directional scanner, once they see an unidentified ship, they'll dock up much like they do when they would have seen you in local. Now the only difference is you still have to try and scan out your targets, you just don't know if they're there to begin with, and your potential targets have to sit their spamming their scanner constantly. It also might just be my imagination, but it just seems like everyone screaming about removing local in one form or another seem to overlook the fact that they won't have local either... But bottom line something should potentially change, its just a matter in my opinion of making sure the change isn't to something annoying. It's still a game at the end of the day. Spamming scanner or having to sit at a gate to watch for potential hostiles is annoying and not what most people would consider fun. I understand that I won't have local either. The difference is that I know where my targets are because we spend the weeks leading up to a war scouting them out, finding out their habits, travel routes and bases. So even without local I have a pretty good idea of where I can find people. And if they decide to up and move, well then I guess I just have to track them down again. The game already provides me the tools for this in locater agents. And I agree, whatever method is put in to replace local it shouldn't be a mad button mashing thing like the current scanner is. I'm not saying I know the answer. I was just trying to give an example of why I think it's not a good thing to have and to rebut the OP assertion that local is needed for wars.
Eval B'Stard Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.28 04:46:00 - [162] In all this thread I've heard people banging on about how it shouldbe harder to find targets, local should be removed and replaced with something that makes it harder to find people. Why ? This is a game right ? and in a game your MAIN objective should be to have fun, if the game turns into more of a chore it becomes less fun. Removing local or replacing it with something that takes even MORE WORK reduces the fun factor. If you want more realism go join the Army and fight for your country, I want to have FUN I don't want to have to spend precious GAME time going through rakes of scanner data just to see if there might be a war target in system. I don't want my fleet sitting around twiddling thier thumbs whilst the scout gathers intel on a system, we do enough of that already. Some of you take this GAME far too seriously. When a GAME becomes more of a chore then it becomes less FUN. There is already plenty to think about in this GAME without adding more unnecessary work.
Skjorta	Posted - 2008.04.28 05:00:00 - [163] The game would get really boring really quickly, spending days looking around empty systems for players. You all act as if local tells you exactly where they are, what they are flying and how their ship is set up. It gives you a name and maybe a colored box. The rest you have to deduce and decide for yourself. Which is very reasonable tbh.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.28 07:45:00 - [164] Originally by: Skjorta The game would get really boring really quickly, spending days looking around empty systems for players. You all act as if local tells you exactly where they are, what they are flying and how their ship is set up. It gives you a name and maybe a colored box. The rest you have to deduce and decide for yourself. Which is very reasonable tbh. Exactly! Who wants to work in a game!
Lee Thrace Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.04.28 15:29:00 - [165] Originally by: Eval B'Stard This is a game right ? and in a game your MAIN objective should be to have fun, if the game turns into more of a chore it becomes less fun. what if i say i'd have more fun with local gone? it's just your opinion and there are gonna be people that quite possible enjoy the game more with local out the window in the end, it's all relative anyway. i think local will certainly spice up the game and add MORE fun instead of decreasing it. however i cannot say this for sure as i havent experienced this yet c'mon take a chance!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.28 17:52:00 - [166] Originally by: Lee Thrace c'mon take a chance! And risk halting the enjoyment of hundreds of thousands of players and collapsing CCP's as a business? NO!!!
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.04.28 18:26:00 - [167] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Patch86 Who says it needs to be the whole system, and who says it needs to be instant? You don't do a lot of PvP do you! For war you need instant and full intel on entire systems at a time. Of course whatever replaces Local (if a replacement is waranted at all) will have to be instant and give good intel on entire systems! It's that simple or war ends in EVE! cough cough bull**** cough cough If you need local to fight a war, and cannot think of any way you might go about fighting a war without local, you're inept and incompetent. Personally, I don't think you're either... you are just trying to be alarmist because: 1. You are a troll 2. You don't want the current system to change so you're going to sit in the mud and scream about the sky falling until you get your way. -Karlemgne
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.04.28 18:43:00 - [168] Originally by: Kale Kold Trammel and Felluca, anyone???? This is the only thing I agree with from the OP, whatever is done to local (if anything) must be done in both 0.0 and empire or you have the Fellucia affect as the OP mentioned (wiki it if you don't know, its from Ultima Online). IMO, local should be removed and replaced with a more functional / 3D scanner and/or some way of determining if war targets are in system (crucial for Empire related stuffz), it could also be motivation for 0.0 entities to War Dec each other. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
egegergergsdgedgege	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:38:00 - [169] Originally by: Kale Kold Trammel and Felluca, anyone???? Indeed. Ultima Online was ruined with that change. In the beginning UO had much in common with EVE. It had Towns that were like highsec and it had a kind of lowsec outside the Towns, where you got flagged criminal for illegal actions and even got perma red if u killed too many inocent people. This all was lost with the split to Felluca and Trammel. The Carebears had won. Riskfree farming for everyone. How exciting.


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