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Local is essential for War! Period!

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Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:35:00 - [1] Local is essential for War! Period! If local goes, something equal has to replace it or how else are you going to find people your at war with or have bad standings with? I am not using locator agents for everyone in EVE just to see if they are in my system and i am not getting info on everyone just to check standings either, that is just absurd! You need some tool, whether its local or not to show you who is in a system and what their standings are to you. Without this, War is effectively ended in EVE. EVE is a PvP game! Please think this through people, local and war is at the very heart of EVE and a change by getting rid of either will change EVE (for the worst) forever. Carebears have ruined every single MMO where their whines have been yielded to. Trammel and Felluca, anyone????
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:38:00 - [2] It has been said time and time again: Local is too powerful. Simply removing local would leave a gaping hole and make many professions unplayable. Local needs to be removed and replaced with an integrated, effective, realistic, but inherently limited tool. The Jury is still out on what exactly that replacement should be... ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:42:00 - [3] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 12:44:12 Originally by: Patch86 It has been said time and time again: Local is too powerful. I'm sorry i can't see your argument, because whatever replaces local, it will have to have the same functionality of being able to see who is in a system and what standings they have to you because these are essential for war, which defeats the object of making a change.
Lrd Byron	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:51:00 - [4] I do have to say, from a purely role playing perspective, local makes a lot of sense. Its completely believable that the owners and operators of the jump gates keep track of everyone who comes into and out of them. It'd be weird if they didn't frankly.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:55:00 - [5] Local: Automatic, No requirements, No effort Intel Tool: Optional, Skill Requirements, Effort Here is your difference. Maybe now you can see what this discussion is all about. Personally, I'd like to make intel gathering a profession for non-combat pilots. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Captain Falcord Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Lrd Byron I do have to say, from a purely role playing perspective, local makes a lot of sense. Its completely believable that the owners and operators of the jump gates keep track of everyone who comes into and out of them. It'd be weird if they didn't frankly. And you assume it's also believable that these owners and operators share their information with EVERYONE
Fugly McTastic	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:57:00 - [7] ok, how about loose local, but add BACON?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Kale Kold Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 12:44:12 Originally by: Patch86 It has been said time and time again: Local is too powerful. I'm sorry i can't see your argument, because whatever replaces local, it will have to have the same functionality of being able to see who is in a system and what standings they have to you because these are essential for war, which defeats the object of making a change. Who says it needs to be the whole system, and who says it needs to be instant? A tool that provides all the necessary information, but has a limited range (variable according to ships, modules, skills, whatever) and takes a short, several second scanning period to pick up the more detailed details (pilot name and corp, for example) would still provide all the functionality required to PvP (and avoid PvP), just not in the same all-seeing all-powerful immutable way that Local does. Local isn't the only way of solving the intel problem, and a replacement tool doesn't need to mimic it exactly to be effective. But I don't really want to get stuck in to this debate; it's been debated 100,000 times before. Everything that is humanly possible to say on this issue, both for and against a change, has been said to death already. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Fugly McTastic ok, how about loose local, but add BACON? BACON works by using information from Local... Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Abrazzar Local: Automatic, No requirements, No effort Intel Tool: Optional, Skill Requirements, Effort Here is your difference. Maybe now you can see what this discussion is all about. Personally, I'd like to make intel gathering a profession for non-combat pilots. First of all, Local is Automatic, No requirements and No effort for EVERYONE at the minute! But you want to penalise people who PvP to more skill training and effort to use a local replacement. Thats not balanced and pretty one sided isn't it!

Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:03:00 - [11] Very few people advocate the removal of local without any form of at least partial intelligence gathering replacement. That said, heaven forbid that you would have to replace your dependence on complete intelligence with actual strategy. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:03:00 - [12] Originally by: Kale Kold If local goes, something equal has to replace it New local RAAAAAWWWWWWRRRRRR!!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Patch86 Who says it needs to be the whole system, and who says it needs to be instant? You don't do a lot of PvP do you! For war you need instant and full intel on entire systems at a time. Of course whatever replaces Local (if a replacement is waranted at all) will have to be instant and give good intel on entire systems! It's that simple or war ends in EVE!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:05:23 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds That said, heaven forbid that you would have to replace your dependence on complete intelligence with actual strategy. In war, you formulate stragey from intelligence!
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Kale Kold Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:05:23 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds That said, heaven forbid that you would have to replace your dependence on complete intelligence with actual strategy. In war, you formulate stragey from intelligence! Gaining useful intelligence requires it's own strategy. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:12:00 - [16] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:12:19 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Gaining useful intelligence requires it's own strategy. Lol! Come on then tell me your strategy for gaining intel without local for a tactical advantage in PvP? ...Oh wait... your a carebear corp (Animal Mercantile Executive), headquartered in Jita 4-4, so i guess your PvP experience is kinda thin and you really don't know what the hell you are talking about!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Patch86 Who says it needs to be the whole system, and who says it needs to be instant? You don't do a lot of PvP do you! For war you need instant and full intel on entire systems at a time. Of course whatever replaces Local (if a replacement is waranted at all) will have to be instant and give good intel on entire systems! It's that simple or war ends in EVE! I've been pretty much solely a PvPer for 2 years, in both 0.0 and Empire wars. How long have you been PvPing? I would have no problem doing roaming PvP with a range-limited scanner, and with a short delay in pilot/corp information. Fleet combat with full scout support would be even easier. It'd be a little more tricky, but thats the idea; local is too powerful. Replacing it with something less powerful will obviously make things less easy. Thats what "too powerful" means. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 27/04/2008 13:21:44 Originally by: Kale Kold Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:12:19 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Gaining useful intelligence requires it's own strategy. Lol! Come on then tell me your strategy for gaining intel without local for a tactical advantage in PvP? ...Oh wait... your a carebear corp (Animal Mercantile Executive), headquartered in Jita 4-4, so i guess your PvP experience is kinda thin and you really don't know what the hell you are talking about! Oh get a clue mate, really. The whole of issue of what kind of strategy for gaining intelligence should replace local is currenly under debate. Most people seem to be at least happy to engage in that debate and consider ideas. Others, like you, feel the need to start yet another thread to communicate their completely inflexible and entrenched viewpoint. Gratz. Local is too damn easy. It's really that simple. Why should perfect intelligence from local preclude any possibility of more interesting intelligence gathering game play? Only lazy or short-sighted people cannot even consider other arguments. Cue the ill-informed ad hominem attacks from desperate 0.0 carebears. You figured out that TTK is a carebear. Well done. Now tell me about my other four mains. Oh wait, you can't cos you don't know who they are. That'll be the limited intelligence I leak. Try harder. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Patch86 I would have no problem doing roaming PvP with a range-limited scanner, and with a short delay in pilot/corp information. We'll im glad your not making the decisions!
Commander Criton Gallente K.I.S.A. Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:20:00 - [20] Simply replace local with a stats window when you look at the local channel all you see is basic information here is an example: There is 16 players with neutral standings in the system There is 5 players with Negative standings in the system There is 97 war targets in the system There is 1 Player with good standings in the system

Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:20:00 - [21] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:23:39 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds The whole of issue of what kind of strategy for gaining intelligence should replace local is currenly under debate. I'm sorry but the argument for replacing Local still hasn't been made!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Commander Criton Simply replace local with a stats window when you look at the local channel all you see is basic information here is an example: There is 16 players with neutral standings in the system There is 5 players with Negative standings in the system There is 97 war targets in the system There is 1 Player with good standings in the system And how do you Know their names? Know their age? Check their title? Check their bio? Check their corp? Check their alliance? These are all required intel needs!
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Tommy TenKreds The whole of issue of what kind of strategy for gaining intelligence should replace local is currenly under debate. I'm sorry but the argument for replacing Local still hasn't been made! Try one of the other threads that are debating it. You frankly don't deserve spoon feeding of arguments. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:24:00 - [24] Clearly we all need to listen to Kale Kold and Vicious Little Killers, some of Eve's foremost PvPers. If they can't handle it, and Kale here is one of the greatest PvPers in all of New Eden, how will us lesser forces cope? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Commander Criton Gallente K.I.S.A. Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Commander Criton Simply replace local with a stats window when you look at the local channel all you see is basic information here is an example: There is 16 players with neutral standings in the system There is 5 players with Negative standings in the system There is 97 war targets in the system There is 1 Player with good standings in the system And how do you Know their names? Know their age? Check their title? Check their bio? Check their corp? Check their alliance? These are all required intel needs! Thats half the problem with local you get all that information for nothing and simply answer is a recon or covort ops ship will have to i dont know do recon/scout?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds You frankly don't deserve spoon feeding of arguments. Because there isn't one! And yes i've read the other carebear whines, but still there isn't a valid reason to even consider replacing Local!
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Tamia Clant Originally by: Fugly McTastic ok, how about loose local, but add BACON? BACON works by using information from Local... Yes but it doesn't mean you'd necessarily need to have Local there to see, in order to use that data for something else in the client. For example: with Local removed and people turning to the larger Constellation chat if they want to communicate that way, you'd have audio tones (similar to BACON) telling you what was going on in local - but not exactly what was going on ... Of course, an immediate issue there would be the number of people who play with EVE sound turned off, or those players who might be deaf. Perhaps you could tie the audio cues to small visual cues, something similar to those indicating when a address book occupant has logged on/off. So, a small arrow pointing up when someone enters the system and pointing down when they leave. Color the arrows according to the respective user settings for entity icons. One way to explain the change in-game, would be to say that worsening relations between the Empires has forced the SCC (?) to reduce inter-system communications relay coverage, resulting in only basic data transfer being supported, or ships having to rely on IFF transmissions. Or something. Probably full of holes, but just an idea.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:35:00 - [28] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Clearly we all need to listen to Kale Kold and Vicious Little Killers, some of Eve's foremost PvPers. If they can't handle it, and Kale here is one of the greatest PvPers in all of New Eden, how will us lesser forces cope? Lol! You guys better pray that any changes made are made from arguments made by PvPers, or you guys are screwed too. This is a direct challenge on war by carebears, put simply. If local is removed and something put in its place that doesn't atleast do the job as well as local, then war is over.
Commander Criton Gallente K.I.S.A. Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Kale Kold Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:28:19 Originally by: Commander Criton ...and simply answer is a recon or covort ops ship will have to i dont know do recon/scout? And then get info on all targets found, etc. Do you realise how utterly boring and long winded that will make finding valid targets and gathering intel? By the time you might find them in the system they would of gone because they got bored looking/getting intel on you! This is supposed to be fun and engaging. Yep i see its boring but the idea is to make roles more important and to pro-long the fights so maybe a new type of probe that picks up ships registry information? giving you the ship owner which in turn gives you their corp info etc.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Kalahari Wayrest Quote: Clearly we all need to listen to Kale Kold and Vicious Little Killers, some of Eve's foremost PvPers. If they can't handle it, and Kale here is one of the greatest PvPers in all of New Eden, how will us lesser forces cope? Thread won, everyone can go home now. (and yes, that is all I'm going to contribute to this thread ) Best post in this thread. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person



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