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Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2004.04.25 20:44:00 -
[1]
I just got done losing my second battle with two Guardian Protectors. These are Tristan npcs. I was in a Dominix.
First fight, I had 6 200mm rails in high; 1 mwd, 1 large shieldboost, 1 multispectral ward, and two sensor boosters; in low, 1 mag vortex and the rest in power diags.
Drones, I brought 9 ogres, 9 hammerheads, 9 warriors.
I lost the fight because the ogres were unable to damage the frigates AT ALL. The hammerheads did damage, but didn't hit enough for it to add up. The warriors hit, but their output could not keep up with the uber shield boost of the NPCs. Oh, those 200s I brought? I might as well have brought a pocketful of rocks. They scored so few hits I was forced to turn them off because they were draining my cap.
The rats ran me out of cap for shieldboosting eventually, and since I didn't want to wait the hour or so for them to chew up my armor, I self destructed. There was no possibility I could have escaped, they were warpscrambling me and they are faster than the Domi using mwd. Oh, and they never run out of cap, either. Convenient!
Second engagement:
I brought 2 250mm rails, 2 200mm rails, and 2 150mm rails. Mids: 1 mwd, 1 large sb, 1 multispec ward, 2 90% webs. Same drone loadout, 9 ogres, 9 hammerheads, 9 warriors.
I can't say that I was surprised when I DOUBLE WEBBED the Tristans, and my ogres were still unable to hit them. Neither were the Warriors able to do significant damage. The Hammerheads were just able to do enough damage to not quite keep up with the shieldboost. That meant that when my guns ran out of ammo ( I went through THREE full reloads of each gun ) the damage i'd managed to score on the Tristan healed right back up during the reload time. the damage the 150s accumulated was insignificant. The hit percentage of the cruiser guns was also insignificant. Did I mention that the double webbed Tristan had a radial velocity of a whopping 24 m/s?
I was unable to kill a Tristan NPC in a battleship. WITH the proper sized weapons equipped, and using the 'proper' set of drones. Once I ran out of cap again, I just ejected.
What's all this mean? Drones are FUBAR right now. I understand the frigate changes, I even agree with most of them. What dosen't need to happen is that you NERF drones ability to hit them. Fix the drones range, fix their speed and command ranges, DO NOT nerf their hit chances. I'm not saying that they need to go on hitting everything 100% of the time, at all. But they should have good enough tracking to be a real grave threat to frigs.
All you needed to do to fix frigs was to fix the wrecking shots. That's ALL. If that's done, YAY! Don't overcompensate with drones and everything else like you always do! Remember what happened with tachyons? Don't fix something so well that you BREAK IT in other ways!
If you make it so that drones are useless against frigs, where will people mine? Well, in areas without rats. Where's that? In higer sec space! Don't you want BS miners to move farther out? Why then are you nerfing their ability to take care of themselves while doing it? Requiring people to ALWAYS work in groups to get anything important done is backwards! If I want to be forced to group, quite frankly, I would still be playing Everquest. And Everquest sucks.
Don't make EVE look like Everquest. Do not put drones on the live server in their current Chaos state. That is all.
[/rant]
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.04.25 20:55:00 -
[2]
Scary scary i just trianed drone interfacing level 5...
CPP read read react fast 
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
CCP Hammerhead
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Posted - 2004.04.25 21:43:00 -
[3]
Some notes about the elite NPCs on chaos. Are you sure the Hammerheads were damaging the Guardian Protectors? The Guardian Protectors you were fighting are immune to thermal damage so even though your Ogres and Hammerheads were hitting they do no damage(each race will have different immunity on their elite gunship frigates). Try Wasps or Berserkers instead. Also the speed at which these NPCs recharge their shields is way wrong and will get tuned. Some NPCs might even decide they like armor tanking better. Lastly you weren't using the new improved drones that players will have when these elite NPCs come to TQ nor are the accuracy changes mentioned in the dev blog in effect.
Thanks for giving feedback and keep it coming we greatly appreciate it. I apologize chaos isn't in a better state for testing but such is the nature of software development.
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Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2004.04.26 01:15:00 -
[4]
Elite Tristans? I didn't know they existed. But what you say makes a lot of sense. I'll try again and maximize other damage types.
Sorry for my tone but I was a little overwhelmed. =)
I'm available for testing any drone changes you like, I have high drone skills, and I love drones in general.
Thanks
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Aronis Contar
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Posted - 2004.04.26 01:31:00 -
[5]
Damage IMMUNITIES? Is this Diablo 2?
I think it's quite enough that NPCs already have unlimitted capacitor and ammo, giving them complete immunity to a damage type is just a tad bit too much. Yay for my beloved lasers - they are anyway widely regarded as gimped, and now will do only 1/2 or even none damage at all against 2 out of 4 races' elite ships?
Ciao, Aronis!
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Lucas De'Thal
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Posted - 2004.04.26 04:34:00 -
[6]
no offense, but your setup kind of sucks. I'm not surprised you lost regardless of the NPC's.
a multispec ward? come on, unless they changed the specs, you're better off using 2 shield tacs and they would still use less cap.
______________________________________________
Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter
dev chat: Mar 18, 2004
hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S "
dev chat: Feb 12, 2004 |
Cirle
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Posted - 2004.04.26 07:52:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Lucas De'Thal
no offense, but your setup kind of sucks. I'm not surprised you lost regardless of the NPC's.
a multispec ward? come on, unless they changed the specs, you're better off using 2 shield tacs and they would still use less cap.
The point of the post, however, was that even using frigate size and speed weapons (drones and guns) and two webs, the ship was unable to do enough damage to the frigates to actually destroy them. Utilising these weapons the mid slot configuration is irrelevant; the frigates should have died.
Fortunately it has been mentioned that the npc elite frigates are currently over powered, however it is still worrying as unless the shield recharge rate is out by a factor of 10x or more, the weapons should still have had a good effect.
Cirle |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.26 07:56:00 -
[8]
Immunities are bad mmm kay. Let's not turn this game into diablo II in space.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.04.26 08:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Immunities are bad mmm kay. Let's not turn this game into diablo II in space.
Why not?
--
Stories: #1
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.26 08:20:00 -
[10]
I had no problems with killing them, the two tactics with which I succeeded in killing a spawn with 5+ elite frigs (+ the usual cruisers):
a.) Apoc with 8 electron blasters (=dual heavy ion) and a single webifier (90% fleeting propulsion inhibitor) got them pretty fast.
b.) Tempest with 5x 1400 and 3x cruise also worked. I was using an MWD and triggered it from time to time to gain distance so that the 1400 did get a few hits and the 3 cruises also did their part.
With the right equipment its no problem to kill them. I do think that immunities will hit the amarr-style equipments worst AGAIN cause the radio crystal only deals one type of damage and the others only 2 while i.e. the projectiles deal 3 types of damage. If that would be fixed I'd like the idea of immunities.
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Loka
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Posted - 2004.04.26 08:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hellek
With the right equipment its no problem to kill them. I do think that immunities will hit the amarr-style equipments worst AGAIN cause the radio crystal only deals one type of damage and the others only 2 while i.e. the projectiles deal 3 types of damage. If that would be fixed I'd like the idea of immunities.
Havent heared, that hybrids can deal other dmg, than kin/th. So why is Amarr more cripled than gallente?
_____________________________________
Dead or Alive
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Valorian
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Posted - 2004.04.26 08:43:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Valorian on 26/04/2004 08:57:52
Edited by: Valorian on 26/04/2004 08:53:10
The Immunities (as mentioned above by Mr Hammerhead) to a particular damage type is not a race ship feature, it is related to each NPC pirate faction's "standard ship equipment protocols" for the ships concerned. Remember NPC pirates don't have the brain power of a player pirate and so they get a few perks, they just need to be tested enough. So you don't have to worry about immunities on player owned elites (unless of course they fit a plethora of shield hardeners).
As far as laser/hybrid gunnery users, the immunity mentioned did not say it was both shield and armor. So chances are lasers have it over hybrid by maximising either Emp or Thermal dmg while hammering the shields then maybe swapping crystals to the other or a combo for the armor. To a certain extent hybrids can do the same (by carrying multiple types of ammo) but not quite to the 100% lvl laser crystals can take you. Generally projectile users need to carry a mixture of ammo, which may impact considerably on cargo space. 1400mm are not going to be able to hit frigates up close and personal, either a 200/280mm S or short range M/L projectile weapons would work better.
Iece>
Where did you get these "200mm rails"? Far a I know 200mm is a projectile gun size S and uses stuff all cap, unless they were part of a hybrid name change I don't know about that is on Chaos, chances are the multispec ward was what sucked your cap (unless you had something else).
250mm rails are of course M and 150mm rails are S. Wrecking shots were changed (on Chaos, if not on Tranq), you now are only meant to get a wrecking shot (approximately) 1 in every 100 successful hits (ie 1% chance, assuming you don't miss).
With the 250s at what range were the npc rats when you were shooting, pretty close I would imagine which would explain why even with the Tristan doing a radial velocity of 24/ms you might have still had a turret speed tracking problem, might want to try a close range hybrid M gun instead of the longest range hybrid M. In my experience on Tranq with T1 M projectiles with similar range/tracking stats, it can be hard to hit T1 npc rats up close and personal so trying to hit an Elite frigate that close is not going to be easy with a long range gun.
As far as the 150s not doing significant damage, did you have T1 or T2 versions cause you might need the T2 variant to do significant dmg to an Elite frigate, also the 150s are a long range frigate hybrid.
An NPC Corporation is not the pilot of its ships and structures! |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.04.26 09:05:00 -
[13]
This thread wasn't about the guns, it was about drones not hitting double webbed frigates...
Or, more likely, the very stupid complete invulnerability to different kinds of damage. This needs to go, more than 85% is too much!
Valorian: 200mm and 350mm railguns are only on chaos so far, they're supposed to be what 125mm rails are for frigates.
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Andrew Redburn
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Posted - 2004.04.26 09:13:00 -
[14]
I know I repeat myself, but I still think the whole change of balancing BS vs Frigates is simply bull****.
A single frigate should have no chance killing a BS and a BS should be able to kill a frigate easily if it hits. And that is currently already very difficult if the frigate orbits with one MWD running.
The drone changes mentioned here suck even more and dmg immunities are plain crap, since even if you fit 4 hardeners of the same type, you don't get immunity (though you come close to it). NPCs should have to follow the same rules as players. I think it is enough to give them higher tech stuff and maybe upgrade their ships (one slot more each size and maybe improvement of powergrid and CPU).
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.04.26 11:01:00 -
[15]
Might as well get my two cents in here. Damage invulnerability is ghey. G.H.E.Y. Please make the maximum resistance 90% at the most, preferably somewhere in teh vicinity of 75%.
Cao
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Beldaws
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Posted - 2004.04.26 13:21:00 -
[16]
I'm still looking for that ZOD rune to put in my ship!
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Immunities are bad mmm kay. Let's not turn this game into diablo II in space.
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Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:06:00 -
[17]
Indeed, damage immunity is total crap.
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
slip66
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:07:00 -
[18]
I disagree on large guns hitting a frigate. It's kinda skewed that the largest caliber gun could possible hit a high speed target. You dont expect a 16inch gun on a RL bs to hit one do you? Thats the whole point of secondary(5 inch & 40mm) and tertiary(25mm & 50 cal batteries.
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Gess
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:18:00 -
[19]
I vote against immunity of any pc/npc 
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:25:00 -
[20]
All Gunships have one form of damage immunity or another..
Why should NPC Gunships be different?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Discorporation
All Gunships have one form of damage immunity or another..
Why should NPC Gunships be different?
No gunship has 100% immunity.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Faster ThanJesus
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Posted - 2004.04.26 21:44:00 -
[22]
Name Medusa
Group Elite Frigate
Race Caldari
Description Hull: Merlin Class
Developer: Lai Dai Corporation
Role: Assault Frigate
Special: 90% less cpu need for Modules requiring Advanced Gunnery
Base Price 1320432
Armor
Armor 320 hp
Armor Em Damage Resistance 60%
Armor Explosive Damage Resistance 9%
Armor Kinetic Damage Resistance 44%
Armor Thermal Damage Resistance 100%
Shield
Shield HP 265 hp
Shield Recharge Time 500.00s
Shield Em Damage Resistance 0%
Shield Explosive Damage Resistance 60%
Shield Kinetic Damage Resistance 50%
Shield Thermal Damage Resistance 100%
Required Skills
Primary Skill required Caldari Frigate Level 5
Secondary Skill required Escorts Level 1
from eve-db
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Aronis Contar
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Posted - 2004.04.26 22:57:00 -
[23]
WTF? Player ships are also going to have immunities???
I hope someone at CCP likes to joke.
Ciao, Aronis!
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.04.26 23:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Faster ThanJesus
from eve-db
Four words. Followed by one word.
Not. In. Game. Yet.
Placeholder.
Anyway, damage immunities are total *******s. Sure, give a frigate a shield hardener, but give it a 50% bonus to one of the damage types just like a shield hardener. 100% immunity is just ridiculous.
We'll ignore the fact that these frigates somehow manage to run a shield booster, an MWD, guns, a webifier, a warp scrambler, and a tac shield all at the same time, indefinitely without running out of cap 
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Faster ThanJesus
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Posted - 2004.04.26 23:41:00 -
[25]
One quote
Originally by: BH Hammerhead
...The Guardian Protectors you were fighting are immune to thermal damage so even though your Ogres and Hammerheads were hitting they do no damage(each race will have different immunity on their elite gunship frigates)...
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2004.04.26 23:50:00 -
[26]
Damage immunitys are crap. Projectiles and missles are capable of inflicting all damage types but lasers and hybrids are limited to 2 types of damage. Please reconciter this CCP.
If you are insistant on adding damage immunitys at least intoduce different hybrid charges and frequency crystals so that laser and hybrid users can compensate for it.
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Rual Storge
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Posted - 2004.04.27 00:13:00 -
[27]
I strongly protest immunities. You can make the resistance extremely high but immunities is a bad idea. Also Drones should be perfectly cappable of massacring a frigate. As far as I'm concerned when I dump out 10 heavy drones I'm dumping out 10 minifrigates. if anything the frigate should have problems hitting the drones. I kinda feel though the current hit miss on TQ is perfect. a number of pilots won't use drones. if someone wants to attack a Battleship in a frigate they should lose. If I drive up along side your tank on a moped with a 9mm pistol I shouldn't have a chance. invul to damage type is stupid though. if you wanna bump it up to be almost invul make it 90 - 95% thats very high insanely high but not invonerable.
Rual Storge, Battlestars, CEO |
Zooloo
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Posted - 2004.04.27 02:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Discorporation
All Gunships have one form of damage immunity or another..
Why should NPC Gunships be different?
Resistance and immunity are two different things. All ships right now have resistances to the different damage types, yes, but none of them have a complete immunity to any damage type.
Making NPC partially less effected by certain damage is fine, but having an entire damage type do no damage at all to the NPC is dumb imo.
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Rodge
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Posted - 2004.04.27 11:36:00 -
[29]
Quote:
If I drive up along side your tank on a moped with a 9mm pistol I shouldn't have a chance.
What if you drive beside the tank armed with a rocket launcher? The only way the tank can hit you is with his smaller guns. But no BS in this game ever mounts anti frig weaponry, preferring to use all high slots for larger guns. That's why fleets in this game do need anti-frigate protection in the form of drones or other frigates.
Though we're quite happy if people don't want to bring the right equipment to defend their expensive BSs against frigs
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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ShadowHawk
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Posted - 2004.04.27 13:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rodge
Quote:
What if you drive beside the tank armed with a rocket launcher? The only way the tank can hit you is with his smaller guns. But no BS in this game ever mounts anti frig weaponry, preferring to use all high slots for larger guns. That's why fleets in this game do need anti-frigate protection in the form of drones or other frigates.
Well, drones ARE anti Frig equipment... they are there exactly for the purpose to protect a large ship against smaller ships... and given their small size, I agree that a frig should have problems targeting them and hitting them.
As for immunities, I fully agree with most of the people here that say that immunities are a bad feature... I too played quite a bit of Diablo2 and one of the worst features was the total immunity to a certain damage type... next step will be double immunities and so on... at least in Diablo2, the NPCs couldn't warp jam and webify you... so you could always get out... in Eve you can end up being ensnared by a few small frigs, unable to hit them and unable to run from them... not exactly a good thing for the most expensive ships currently in game.
I don't think frigs should be that powerful (even though I do fly frigs as well and enjoy using them)... I think CCP has a lot of work cut out for them fixing all the bugs that we have in this game without the need to introduce more with such drastic changes. This isn't BETA anymore... right?
Things to fix I can think of are:
- Nosferatus using as much cap as they give back
- Guns not getting bonus from damage mods right after you fit them, until you switch ship, re-fit all your guns or relog
- Skills not being applied all the time
- Drones keep on shooting way past their range
- Indys being way underpowered in terms of power grid, armor and shields
- NPCs not running out of cap
- NPCs being able to MWD 200km at a time at insane speeds
- Defenders not working properly
- Skills like Scrap Metal Processing not on the market
and the list goes on... I know it's soooo much more fun tinkering with settings, but I hope certain devs (I'm sure most know who I mean) will get their act together, start fix things, get the game stable instead of constantly 'balancing' things...
Your 280mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Sansha's Scavenger, wrecking for 264.3 damage.
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