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ICE belts and asteroids respawns

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:46:00 - [1] I wish that the all other asteroids were just as resilient as the is roids. Or atleast make the ice last as long as all the other belts. Seems like mining in empire is slowly coming to an end in eve. Ice is virtualy (no pun intented) non-profitable, atleast where Im at. All the roids in and around duripant to ashokon and from stayme to duripant are nothing more than pebbels at best. At least I can "loot" mine (hmm wonder if i coined a new phrase) atleast until the loot dries up also. Oh well. Question is will CCP decide to re-adjust the respawns on the roids. So that they will respawn at a faster rate? Or will we just stay stuck with the status quoe, and deal with the bi monthly respawn rates. I think it is wierd that CCP would let ice asteroids remain (for lack of a better word) non destructable. While all the other types of asteroids are allowed to constantly deplete and have terrible respawn rates. I have yet to kill off one single ice cube, except for the ones that get tossed in with my Pepsi. lol. Yet I can deplete an entire belt solo in 10 to 12 hours. This just seems grossly one sided to me. In my opion eith the roids need to be brough up to a faster respawn time / made as resilient as the ice asteroids. Or the ice asteroids need to be brought down to a respawn rate simular to that of the other asteroids in the game. If CCP were to increase the respawn rates then maybe the isk sellers and macro miners would go away. heh yeah right. I thin that last part is just wishful thinking. Anyways just my to cents on the badly needed looked at respawn rates.
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.04.28 22:15:00 - [2] Good point, I cant seem to find anything that is worth mining in my area either. Unless i want to waste a few hours trying to find a hidden belt and hope that it is still intact and not depleted to the point that only 1 tiny roid was left to remain and was mined out to less then half of its content. That was real annoying but funny at the same time. Someones twisted sense of humor.
Doosh Bagge Soldi di Protezione	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:16:00 - [3] Seems like mining in empire is pretty much a pointless waste of time... If youv'e been playing the game for more than 3 months. Don't beg for better belts in Empire, and don't screw the ice miners, just because you're not willing to head out to 0.0. They don't want mining in Empire to be truly profitable, they want people to head out to nullsec. Please help keep the API alive....
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:23:00 - [4] Edited by: DubanFP on 29/04/2008 03:24:12 Originally by: Doosh Bagge Seems like mining in empire is pretty much a pointless waste of time... If youv'e been playing the game for more than 3 months. Don't beg for better belts in Empire, and don't screw the ice miners, just because you're not willing to head out to 0.0. They don't want mining in Empire to be truly profitable, they want people to head out to nullsec. This. Actually you don't even need to leave empire, just the most crowded little section of empire. P.S. Don't say it's too hard to find buyers off the main road. You can't have it both ways. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:27:00 - [5] You've mined an entire belt for 10-12 hours? I suggest going outside for a walk or something, man that can't be healthy.
Tiirae	Posted - 2008.04.29 03:38:00 - [6] Sweet Jebus...it takes you 10-12 hours to strip a belt? I'm guessing you're in an osprey or something...running 2 hulks I can do one in about 2 1/2 hours. I mine in a 0.7 system in Metropolis, it has 14 belts, full of omber/plag, and there's never more than 5 or 6 people mining in the system. Even right before respawn there's still plenty of roids. I would suggest you get in a shuttle and do some exploring.
Valkazm Amarr Dark BroTHerS Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.04.29 04:40:00 - [7] well usually it just takes a little time to actually move your stuff and look around to a new area... otherwise i would like to adress the progress of more and more players comming in and minning in empire making profit .. i think its good that there is not unlimited source of resources and thats kind of how the world works aswell were profit is the main gain and you strip the resources .. sometime you have to look elsewere and there is where we have low sec .. as soon as the resources are depleted in empire high sec low sec will play a bigger role .. ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.29 05:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Tiirae I mine in a 0.7 system in Metropolis, it has 14 belts, full of omber/plag, and there's never more than 5 or 6 people mining in the system. Even right before respawn there's still plenty of roids. I used to mine a lot on one of my first characters, once-upon-a-time when Isogen was worth about twice the present value, at least. I'd be able to login for 2-3 hours every night when the server came back up and especially on the days the Golden Omber was refreshed. Is it really worth it for a miner to be mining Ombers these days?
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.29 05:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Segge Bolled Is it really worth it for a miner to be mining Ombers these days? Omber is the second most worthless Ore at the moment, second only to Jaspet. Such is the crash of Isogen and Nocxium. Plagioclaise is almost worth twice as much. (rise of mex/trit)
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.29 06:13:00 - [10] Ah, as I thought. I know a few quiet systems fairly rich with Fiery Kernite these days. One day I'll have to actually run some numbers about that - once my Hulk alt is ready.

Liu Hideharo	Posted - 2008.04.29 06:44:00 - [11] veld is 30% more profitable than kernite. And people dont mine veld. Becosue kernite kernite kernite. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=759469
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.04.29 06:48:00 - [12] Hey look there's belts in low sec and 0.0, filled with minerals that have yet to be touched!
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.29 08:16:00 - [13] you can explore for hidden belts, they are in empire space as well. They usually have one step up better ore then the true sec area they are in. If you catch a fresh one, its all full roids for you. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.29 09:57:00 - [14] It would be better if the ice depleted the same way roids do. Mining ice would actually start to make a profit instead of ice products being so ridiculously cheap that it's not worth bothering with. It would also make it more difficult for the macro ice miners that crowd around the ice belts. In ice belts, there's no need to move from your current spot, you just pick a roid and sit there all night mining it.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.29 10:11:00 - [15] Edited by: Tippia on 29/04/2008 10:12:23 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn you can explore for hidden belts, they are in empire space as well. They usually have one step up better ore then the true sec area they are in. If you catch a fresh one, its all full roids for you. The problem is that, in empire, this "step up" is to the mid/low-sec ores, all of which are generally less worth than good old Veld (at least with the current trit prices). So it's not really a worth-while investment in time, equipment or skills. Looking for ice is a bit different, but probing for hidden ore (or just running across some in a mission) in high-sec, is unfortunately just a waste

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.04.29 10:14:00 - [16] Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.04.29 10:22:00 - [17] Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. There is maybe too much ice in icebelts. Same reason it encourage macroing. On the other hand Ore belts could use alittle tweak. Maybe 50-100% increase. But ice roids are in the size of 20000 (Extremely small) to abit over 100000 units (common). Considering even macro people in a Mack can "only" do 1000 ice cubes per day approx with 23/7 mining. Then you aint really seeing any roids at all go away. I would say lower the amount to maybe 250-1000 units and boost Ore amounts. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 10:24:00 - [18] I think what he is saying is why does ice belts with 200 people mining it barely dent nining it all day while asteroid belts with 99% less folks dies out within a hour or two. How to make feel low sec feel like low sec
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. There is maybe too much ice in icebelts. Same reason it encourage macroing. On the other hand Ore belts could use alittle tweak. Maybe 50-100% increase. But ice roids are in the size of 20000 (Extremely small) to abit over 100000 units (common). Considering even macro people in a Mack can "only" do 1000 ice cubes per day approx with 23/7 mining. Then you aint really seeing any roids at all go away. I would say lower the amount to maybe 250-1000 units and boost Ore amounts. What Shintai and most of the other poster seem to forget is that the ice belts are pretty rare in high sec (especially in some of the regions) and ice mining in low sec require a big structure to defend the miners with really no possibility to protect the mining ships from destruction (an attacker can warp in, destroy the miners from long range before they warp out and leave with very little risk). As mining ships slow to enter warp and partial cycles of ice mining jeld nothing mining ice in low sec, barring the capacity of securing a system like a 0.0 system, is not the way to supply ice for all the high sec and low sec POS. So making ice fields "as easy to deplete as asteroid fields" (i.e. 1 person will deplete one of them in 1 day) is a very bad move as the ratio of mining belts to ice belts is probably around 300-500 to 1, there are no ice field exploration sites (would be a nice addition) and no alternate source (like reprocessing loot for minerals). On a little thin hat moment, in the last days someone has attempted a large, failed, manipulation of heavy water price. He ended buyng the equivalent of 1 or more months of heavy water transactions in the whole forge region at an inflated price. The recent spate of threads against "easy ice" in high sec are an attemt to manipulate the market to recover the loss he incurred in his failed manipulation?
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:26:00 - [20] Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. Gha .. and normal forum dwellers may not troll ... -----

Shintai Gallente Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:42:00 - [21] Edited by: Shintai on 29/04/2008 11:43:14 Originally by: Venkul Mul What Shintai and most of the other poster seem to forget is that the ice belts are pretty rare in high sec (especially in some of the regions) and ice mining in low sec require a big structure to defend the miners with really no possibility to protect the mining ships from destruction (an attacker can warp in, destroy the miners from long range before they warp out and leave with very little risk). As mining ships slow to enter warp and partial cycles of ice mining jeld nothing mining ice in low sec, barring the capacity of securing a system like a 0.0 system, is not the way to supply ice for all the high sec and low sec POS. So making ice fields "as easy to deplete as asteroid fields" (i.e. 1 person will deplete one of them in 1 day) is a very bad move as the ratio of mining belts to ice belts is probably around 300-500 to 1, there are no ice field exploration sites (would be a nice addition) and no alternate source (like reprocessing loot for minerals). On a little thin hat moment, in the last days someone has attempted a large, failed, manipulation of heavy water price. He ended buyng the equivalent of 1 or more months of heavy water transactions in the whole forge region at an inflated price. The recent spate of threads against "easy ice" in high sec are an attemt to manipulate the market to recover the loss he incurred in his failed manipulation? Ice in highsec and volume? Even if you make all roids 250 in size there is PLENTY. Only thing it stops is the macro warping in to the same location and GSC/jetcan mine with its transport system. 250-1000 per roid where you have something like 150 roids per belt is not something that gonna get depleted anyday soon. But it will require abit more action and move around from the miners. Not an issue for the humans, but a major one for the macroers. This is nothing against easy ice in highsec. It will still be there and in the same endless volumes. Just not as easy to macro! And you defend the macroers with your statement. The human player wont notice anything and mine ice just as usual. And ice belts 500:1 or 300:1? Last time I checked we dont consume the same amount of ice as with ore. Plus the ice belts are already 10000 times bigger than ore belts if not more. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Liptight	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:50:00 - [22] Ok here is a idea, which would **** a lot of people off but would fix a few problems. Highsec ice belts amounts should be nerfed to a similar amount to regular ore belts, in time it takes to mine. You do the maths. Then keep ice belts in low and nullsec and the current limits. Firstly move people out to 0.0, price of highsec ice shoots up, gives people a reason to mine ice in 0.0 rather than just buying from jita, macro's will then move to the more available resource low end ore. This of course will lower the price of trit, pyre, mex, nocx, iso. Which can be a good thing if some artificial price cap's cough civilian ab cough are removed. As to balance out the market.
spyor	Posted - 2008.04.29 11:59:00 - [23] My pennies worth. I found a system and mined it, very happy little miner, then a mining gang appeared for a bout 3 days. Cleared all the scordite, pyro and plag. They then left again. The roids started to respawn and grew again. If i did not kill them all, they grew bigger. A few weeks later the mining gang came back and so it goes round. I would suggest that if you have picked yourself a system, just take what you need, never mine out the roids, leave them small for the next day, alternate your belts, and check the others daily for size. Its like farming your crop!!! Look after your "roids" and they will look after you! The ice belts, never ever get smaller... not sure exactly if they should. Perhaps they should be tweaked!
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:00:00 - [24] how about this. Increase the ore amounts (ore per rock and/or number of rock) in belts and portionally readjust number of belts in systems, so if you say double the ore amounts in belts it should reduce the overall number of belts per system up to 50% each. reason why I say per system is not to mess with the goto spots for miners and pirates alike. Overall it may reduce lag server calls and make the belts feel bigger (yes a size increase Decrease the amount in ice belts, portionally increase the number of them across the galaxy and may be further spread thier types out only allowing two types in any one ice belt. This of course does the opposite of the first idea but not at the same impact of thier reduction. Next one is it would increase what was once a normally useless systems into a higher valued area for thier fuel creating more places for allainces to take over and attempt to kept hold and protected at all times making them strategic positions especially if the types of ice found are reduced to 2 or 1 from their current 3ish ive been seeing. Thirdly it would create a sense of 'conservation' because we all know roids do grow when not mined for a long while, if the ice belts become smaller grow slower and feature less amount and become more spread out the allaince will be forced to move onto other belts to continue operations increasing risk overall. How to make feel low sec feel like low sec
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Liptight Ok here is a idea, which would **** a lot of people off but would fix a few problems. Highsec ice belts amounts should be nerfed to a similar amount to regular ore belts, in time it takes to mine. You do the maths. Then keep ice belts in low and nullsec and the current limits. Firstly move people out to 0.0, price of highsec ice shoots up, gives people a reason to mine ice in 0.0 rather than just buying from jita, macro's will then move to the more available resource low end ore. This of course will lower the price of trit, pyre, mex, nocx, iso. Which can be a good thing if some artificial price cap's cough civilian ab cough are removed. As to balance out the market. Raising the price of ice is doing no one a favor. To take a real world analogy, ice is EVE's oil; it's crucial to the functioning of the game. If the price goes up it just soaks up more money from other sources, basically people have to spend more ISK on ice and less ISK on having fun. And who would want to have less fun? ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
agrajag119 Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:18:00 - [26] Edited by: agrajag119 on 29/04/2008 12:20:05 I'll throw my hat in the ring on this issue. High-sec: ore amounts could use a little tweaking, but thats just a symptom of the 'we all live in caldari space' mentality. If newer players were given some more guidance <cough> new player experience </cough> to move to other regions for resources perhaps this would help things out. On an oblique note to that, making courier contracts larger in size, or easier to modify would help to promote a cargo hauling commerce which would ease the pain of moving further from the black hole that is jita. Was going to say something about high-sec freighter gankage here, but I'll skip it... Lo-sec: the whole place is basically worthless without an organized corporation op. Even then the only things worth mining are the high-sec ores due to the middle mineral price slump. Solution? -> drones get half the bounty of a normal rat and their alloy drops are halved. This will keep the people that are busily employed hauling alloys out of drone regions in work, but will help to raise the demand for the middle minerals. A shot in the dark idea (that people will hate) is to increase the strength of gate guns. Not enough to preclude lo-sec camps, but enough to make the camp need to be a large-ish one. Forcing consolidation of pirates, which will make for open areas for others to operate. Ice: I'd like to see high-sec ice rocks pop, but have them re-seed each dt. This seems a bit odd, but its to confound the macro's a bit, and to help with gsc spam in the belts. 0.0 belts are pretty much fine as they are, since ice products are so essential to operations out there. Any tweaking with those could cause a ripple effect of fuel shortages. With the potential volume of product needed this would be a painfully bad market experience for all. Edit* Originally by: Verite Rendition Raising the price of ice is doing no one a favor. To take a real world analogy, ice is EVE's oil; it's crucial to the functioning of the game. If the price goes up it just soaks up more money from other sources, basically people have to spend more ISK on ice and less ISK on having fun. And who would want to have less fun? Verite makes a great point, rising ice product prices would create a negative effect on the isk sink that is pvp. Inflation is bad m'kay.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.29 12:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Liu Hideharo veld is 30% more profitable than kernite. And people dont mine veld. Becosue kernite kernite kernite. But Kernite is silver so of course it should be worth more - and thus people mine it, for it is shiny ...
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:22:00 - [28] I mine Kernite for the minerals, not for ISK. That and Veldspar is a serious pain to haul due to the amount of Trit you get from it. And Kernite is shiny...must have teh shiny...urgh urgh! Shiny! ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Tzar'rim Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.04.29 13:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 29/04/2008 13:55:01 Originally by: Thenoran I mine Kernite for the minerals, not for ISK. That and Veldspar is a serious pain to haul due to the amount of Trit you get from it. And Kernite is shiny...must have teh shiny...urgh urgh! Shiny! I'm not a miner but; If veldspar is worth more than kernite, why don't you mine Veldspar, sell that, buy the minerals you want and have fun with the extra profit you just made? Or just mine 30% less. 30% more profit makes up for hauling more?
Carlton Foster	Posted - 2008.04.29 14:10:00 - [30] I'm pretty new to Eve, well I have been playing off and on over the last year, but still pretty much a new player. I am confused exactly what the problem is? I see asteroids all over the place in every system I go into? Am I missing something? Also I heard that Ice Fields were being removed from high sec? Any truth to that rumor?

Wasp	Posted - 2008.04.29 14:59:00 - [31] Edited by: Wasp on 29/04/2008 14:59:58 I have visited hundreds of belts in the North and in the South in the last month. RARELY do I ever find a healthy belt. 99% have been mined out. It didn't used to be this way. Second, I RARELY see corp mining efforts going on to account for the depleted astroid belts. I visited the "out of the way" places others say have healthy belts and still don't find them. All of this leads me to believe that CCP has reduced the respawn rates for empire asteroid fields, or there are some very efficient macro mining operations going on 23/7 in every system in eve... It does not make sense that ICE fields are different than regular asteroid fields in terms of endless roids that cannot be mined out. I realize that CCP wants a pvp game and has designed it so, but many of it's players rely on the more mundane mining/building aspect of the game. Please BOOST the respawn rate for empire asteroid fields.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Shintai Originally by: Venkul Mul What Shintai and most of the other poster .... Ice in highsec and volume? Even if you make all roids 250 in size there is PLENTY. Only thing it stops is the macro warping in to the same location and GSC/jetcan mine with its transport system. 250-1000 per roid where you have something like 150 roids per belt is not something that gonna get depleted anyday soon. But it will require abit more action and move around from the miners. Not an issue for the humans, but a major one for the macroers. This is nothing against easy ice in highsec. It will still be there and in the same endless volumes. Just not as easy to macro! And you defend the macroers with your statement. The human player wont notice anything and mine ice just as usual. And ice belts 500:1 or 300:1? Last time I checked we dont consume the same amount of ice as with ore. Plus the ice belts are already 10000 times bigger than ore belts if not more. Before jumping to the defense of your iade note that you were chosen as the first cited and quoted as you were the first to reply to CCP, Prism, but all the post above you were adressed in 1 reply, it wasn't a reply only to your post. The comment that originated the part that draw your ires was: Originally by: Drizit It would be better if the ice depleted the same way roids do. and your post was supporting that. Acout the ore/ice belts being in a rapport of 500 ore every 1 ice belt I stay my position. That is the approximate number in high sec and untill the ice belts are as common as the ore belt they should not risk to be depleted (note that I have never sait the single cube should noot be depleted, but the belt should not, as a single belt will easily support most of a region. Maybe you haven't been there when the 0.8+ belt were removed, but I recall the negative effect of finding that all the high sec sytem where ice was available in an entire region has disapparead and of finding that the nearest hi-sec belt to you POS has moved from 2 jumps to 20. Now hi sec pos, thank to invention, are way more common. So you can hate macrominer and sweatshop has much as you want but they are not a good reason to disrupt other players game. Ice products are bulky, tritanium you can usually be utilize in loc or at a small distance, ice product often must be moved 20 jumps to the pos.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.29 15:49:00 - [33] To put a real face on what Venkul Mul said... Prior to the removal of the Ice Belts in .8+ space, my corp could mine ice, process it and haul it 4 jumps to our POS... Now, it's 9 jumps... Prior to the change, I could mine ice all day and see 3 or 4 others in that belt... now if I see less then 40 it's because Down time ended early and the rest have not logged on yet... Yes, the Goons have visited the belt as well... Exhumer hunts are a lot easier when you limit the ice belts... Nothing to do with Macro's here, we need to mine (or buy) the products from 4000 units of ice a month to power our POS (Ice = Oil is a good comparison) --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Garat Mant Minmatar Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.29 16:02:00 - [34] Originally by: CCP Prism X Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. Prism, Could you and the other devs please consider adding ice to normal roid belts? You could add a quantity of ice to all empire belts below 0.8 that deplete about the same rate as Scordite. This would spread out the various ice miners, and maybe change (improve?) the market a little as a mining op could then include ice as well as roids. A little further out, perhaps you could change the roid belts to the proposed exploration-style system? Make them accurately scannable only by those ships specifically designed for mining (or just increase their gravimetric signal strength and adjust barges/exhumers' scanners accordingly). I'd also like to see more of a mixture of mineral types from roids - i.e. you mine "a roid" and get mostly trit, a little pyer and a random chance of a little isogen/mex/nocx etc. It seems a little silly that all the roids are so "pure". -- Co-CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Recruiting mature players!
Vodka Neat	Posted - 2008.04.29 16:06:00 - [35] Here is a nice trick. Mission mine, find an agent that gives a mission that contains rocks and mine the mission out. Also a little safer since they will have to probe you out before they can find you. Downside is only lowends, but hey what you onna do? Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.29 16:13:00 - [36] Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 29/04/2008 13:55:01 Originally by: Thenoran I mine Kernite for the minerals, not for ISK. That and Veldspar is a serious pain to haul due to the amount of Trit you get from it. And Kernite is shiny...must have teh shiny...urgh urgh! Shiny! I'm not a miner but; If veldspar is worth more than kernite, why don't you mine Veldspar, sell that, buy the minerals you want and have fun with the extra profit you just made? Or just mine 30% less. 30% more profit makes up for hauling more? jetcan = 27500m3 veld - volume 0.1 m3, batch 333 units of veld kernite - volume 1.2 m3, batch 400 units of kernite veld - 275 000 units/jetcan (825 batches) kernite - ~22 916 units/jetcan (57 batches) veld -> 8251000=825 000 units of trit => 8250* m3 of trit from one jetcan of veldspar (with perfect refining and standings 6.7+ with corp owning the station where you refine) kernite -> 57386=22002 units of trit 57773=44061 units of mexallon 57386=22002 units of isogen total= 88065 units (880,65* m3) of minerals from one jetcan of kernite (with perfect refining and standings 6.7+ with corp owning the station where you refine) Also a hulk pilot with Exhumers IV and 3 MLUs can fill up a jetcan in less than 20 min using T2 crystals (without using mining drones). And iteron IV can use 4 GSC (15600m3) Mining is not viable anywhere near trade and manufacturing hubs because of can flippers, suicide gankers, ore thieves and mostly because there are NO roids worth mining (not enough ore to complete 1 cycle of strip miner I). Therefore a miner will mine in a rather remote and quiet system which leads us to hauling I gave you the numbers you the the math. I am located 7 jumps from closest manufacturing system (read competitive buy order prices). Even if I had refined 90M of trit (109 jetcans of veld, lol), would an obelisk pilot fly 7+7 jumps to buy it at 3.3 and sell it at 3.5? or If I had spent 2 hours mining veld, how many trips would be needed to haul that amount of trit in iteron IV and how much time I'd spent doing it, instead of mining? And this is why I mine kernite... and trit will rise even more PS: I am also a small manufacturer of ammo and probes and i need mex and isogen...
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.29 16:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Sim'a Nuk Edited by: Sim''a Nuk on 29/04/2008 16:20:01 Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 29/04/2008 13:55:01 Originally by: Thenoran I mine Kernite for the minerals, not for ISK. That and Veldspar is a serious pain to haul due to the amount of Trit you get from it. And Kernite is shiny...must have teh shiny...urgh urgh! Shiny! I'm not a miner but; If veldspar is worth more than kernite, why don't you mine Veldspar, sell that, buy the minerals you want and have fun with the extra profit you just made? Or just mine 30% less. 30% more profit makes up for hauling more? jetcan = 27500m3 veld - volume 0.1 m3, batch 333 units of veld kernite - volume 1.2 m3, batch 400 units of kernite veld - 275 000 units/jetcan (825 batches) kernite - ~22 916 units/jetcan (57 batches) veld -> 8251000=825 000 units of trit => 8250* m3 of trit from one jetcan of veldspar (with perfect refining and standings 6.7+ with corp owning the station where you refine) kernite -> 57386=22002 units of trit 57773=44061 units of mexallon 57386=22002 units of isogen total= 88065 units (880,65* m3) of minerals from one jetcan of kernite (with perfect refining and standings 6.7+ with corp owning the station where you refine) Also a hulk pilot with Exhumers IV and 3 MLUs can fill up a jetcan in less than 20 min using T2 crystals (without using mining drones). And iteron IV can use 4 GSC (15600m3) Mining is not viable anywhere near trade and manufacturing hubs because of can flippers, suicide gankers, ore thieves and mostly because there are NO roids worth mining (not enough ore to complete 1 cycle of strip miner I). Therefore a miner will mine in a rather remote and quiet system which leads us to hauling I gave you the numbers you the the math. I am located 7 jumps from closest manufacturing system (read competitive buy order prices). Even if I had refined 90M of trit (109 jetcans of veld, lol) and set up a sell order, would an obelisk pilot fly 7+7 jumps to buy it at 3.3 and sell it at 3.5? or If I had spent 2 hours mining veld, how many trips would be needed to haul that amount of trit in iteron IV and how much time I'd spent doing it, instead of mining? And this is why I mine kernite... and trit will rise even more PS: I am also a small manufacturer of ammo and probes and i need mex and isogen... (also kernite is shiny) This. Hauling time for anyone not mining 2 jumps away from Amarr or Jita becomes very important. Gotta love a Hulk for that, its a miner and hauler in one without fear of jetcans being swapped since you don't use one. My current Badger Mk II would have to travel up and down constantly to make ISK out of Trit from Veld. Also, if I just purely went for ISK to get my minerals, I'd have to haul those minerals as well. Would be much more practical to just mine the stuff, refine it and then start manufacturing on the spot. P.S. "...Also a hulk pilot with Exhumers IV and 3 MLUs..." 3 MLU's on a Hulk? I want the ship that pilot is flying! ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.29 17:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Thenoran P.S. "...Also a hulk pilot with Exhumers IV and 3 MLUs..." 3 MLU's on a Hulk? I want the ship that pilot is flying! You've got me! I am a noob and I don't have a Hulk Quote: Even if I had refined 90M of trit (109 jetcans of veld, lol) and set up a sell order, would an obelisk pilot fly 7+7 jumps to buy it at 3.3 and sell it at 3.5? I am also assuming (maybe wrongly) that Obelisk with freighter IV has 900 000m3 cargohold (not sure of that and if you can use GSC in a freighter). Also, I'm signing under the petition to rename Hulk to "The Belt Annihilator" and maybe increase the amount/respawn rate of roids.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 17:33:00 - [39] Quote: Here is a nice trick. Mission mine Yeah, only some sadistic Dev made certain missions have hidden untargetable turrets that SHOOT you when you engage a mining laser on a roid. As for the rest, the Devs probably won't do squat until the belt change to Exploration is initiated, whenever that is (been hearing about it for a year).
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.29 18:13:00 - [40] Mining in Missions is usually not worth it due to Deadspace and travel time. Half the time in a mission I will see huge and wonderful roids that would take me hours to just mine one asteroids dry. There are a few exceptions but usually when the ore is worth mining, its in Deadspace and 50-100km away from the warp-in point. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh

Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.29 18:43:00 - [41] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 29/04/2008 10:12:23 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn you can explore for hidden belts, they are in empire space as well. They usually have one step up better ore then the true sec area they are in. If you catch a fresh one, its all full roids for you. The problem is that, in empire, this "step up" is to the mid/low-sec ores, all of which are generally less worth than good old Veld (at least with the current trit prices). So it's not really a worth-while investment in time, equipment or skills. Looking for ice is a bit different, but probing for hidden ore (or just running across some in a mission) in high-sec, is unfortunately just a waste ^this^ because of such high values on low-end ores, most of the "average quality" 0.0 is not worth mining and the risk vs reward is out of balance. possible solution: make those "medium-end" ores like jaspet, hedbergite, and spodumain actually worth more than the low-end ores like veldspar and plagioclase... or make them more accessible. currently they are generally considered trash ores because they are worth considerably less than hi-sec ores but are only found in lowsec or nullsec. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.29 18:46:00 - [42] I want to be able to find Ice in Gravimetric sigs... ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.04.29 18:57:00 - [43] Originally by: Thenoran Mining in Missions is usually not worth it due to Deadspace and travel time. Half the time in a mission I will see huge and wonderful roids that would take me hours to just mine one asteroids dry. There are a few exceptions but usually when the ore is worth mining, its in Deadspace and 50-100km away from the warp-in point. actually many mission areas with decent ores to mine are not "deadspaces" in that you can bookmark your jetcan and warp directly to it. if nothing else, mission areas make safer places to mine a decent amount of ore compared to the public asteroid belts. the rocks are big and ore thieves will probably not bother you there. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.04.29 19:23:00 - [44] First of all, you people that say, "You mine for 12 hours? OMG you have no life!" and, "You mine after 3 months in EVE? You are teh n00b!" are REALLY ignorant of how other people play. I mine, I PvP, I mission. I do industry, I do POS logistics, I trade. I do it all. I love mining becasue I can get my 3 accounts running and I can semi-AFK mine and get up and help my wife cook dinner, read a book to my 3 year old daughter. All while I come back to the computer every few minutes and do a few clicks. Or I set up my Hulk with Expanded Cargohold II's instead of MLU II's and my Cargo is 17,200 m3. Then I lock some rocks and go AFK for 15 minutes and come back with my hold full. I make some ISK at it. Other times my wife and daughter are at the store or visiting my sister-in-law and I can concentrate on running 3 accounts in a mission. I blow out a WC4 in like less then 30 minutes. Then I loot and salvage. Then when I'm really in the mood I roam into Low sec and try to kill pirates with one character probing and one doing ze killing. Or if I can really dedicate some no interferance time away from family I try to PvP with my corp and we really kill stuff. Ok now back on topic. Asteroids currently do not meet the needs of demand. Miners can't simply go off to a far away system with more ore. Most of the time the ore is just as picked clean. Also you have to deal with hauling away to a station where you have the standings to not pay refining tax. The market is limited by the rocks in the belts in High sec. (don't tell me to mine in low sec thats ********) With the removal of the NPC shuttles and the price cap of Trit now removed from 3.4 ISK/unit CCP needs to let the miners actually supply this demand. Trit is super expensive because of this imbalance of supply/demand. CCP please make roids have more in them or up the respawn rates. IMO I think its more realistic for a roid to just have 5X more ore in it then respawn 5X more often (for example!) because its kinda realism breaking when this massive Veld rock pops out of existence instead of maybe collapsing in on itself. Or leaving behind a roid husk or something of that nature.
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.04.29 19:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Alora Venoda Originally by: Thenoran Mining in Missions is usually not worth it due to Deadspace and travel time. Half the time in a mission I will see huge and wonderful roids that would take me hours to just mine one asteroids dry. There are a few exceptions but usually when the ore is worth mining, its in Deadspace and 50-100km away from the warp-in point. actually many mission areas with decent ores to mine are not "deadspaces" in that you can bookmark your jetcan and warp directly to it. if nothing else, mission areas make safer places to mine a decent amount of ore compared to the public asteroid belts. the rocks are big and ore thieves will probably not bother you there. I am a huge supporter of more missions with huge rocks in it to mine once you are done. I run missions and sometimes I mine them out when I am done. Macroers wont do this. But real players will.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:22:00 - [46] Originally by: Vaal Erit You've mined an entire belt for 10-12 hours? I suggest going outside for a walk or something, man that can't be healthy. Actually I do go for walks. I cover 5 to 6 miles (unless my GPS is lying to me) every couple days in the mojave desert with a 65lb back pack and a 5lb utility belt. Best form of excercise I ever found. Helped get me out of my fat suit.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Valkazm well usually it just takes a little time to actually move your stuff and look around to a new area... otherwise i would like to adress the progress of more and more players comming in and minning in empire making profit .. i think its good that there is not unlimited source of resources and thats kind of how the world works aswell were profit is the main gain and you strip the resources .. sometime you have to look elsewere and there is where we have low sec .. as soon as the resources are depleted in empire high sec low sec will play a bigger role .. So you also agree that the Ice should also be delpeatable and not an endless non depletable source. Like the mineral belts are currently. It shoould be either or. Not ice being a permant non depletable source and the other belts for all intents and purposes being basicly what amounts to permantly drained of resources.
Zanpt Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:36:00 - [48] I must say I don't understand this discussion either. We mine in hi sec and make money. We also build stuff instead of selling the minerals. We mine ice for POS fuels... we never buy or sell ice or ice products. Mining ice is a pleasure, much more relaxed than mining pebbles of ore that pop frequently. I really can't understand ppl who want to nerf stuff. If you want ice to become more rare so you can make ISK selling it, screw you. If you can't make any money mining ore, you're doing something wrong or you're in the wrong place in the huge Eve universe. If serious changes are made that make mining ice much more difficult or that make asteroid belts disappear or spawn more poorly, some of us will lose interest. We probably won't leave Eve but we'll drop back our many multiple accounts to a smaller number, as serious changes would likely break things for us. The better things work for us, the more accounts we pay each month. The worse things work for us, the fewer accounts we pay each month.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Hey look there's belts in low sec and 0.0, filled with minerals that have yet to be touched! When I mine. I like to mine in peace. Not in pieces.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn you can explore for hidden belts, they are in empire space as well. They usually have one step up better ore then the true sec area they are in. If you catch a fresh one, its all full roids for you. I do that. I even found that some miners have a twisted sence of humor. by leaving a hidden belt with 1 roid in it. With that last roid being partially mined also. lol

Zanpt Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Vodka Neat Here is a nice trick. Mission mine, find an agent that gives a mission that contains rocks and mine the mission out. Also a little safer since they will have to probe you out before they can find you. Downside is only lowends, but hey what you onna do? I complained recently that the mission spaces were not respawning over d/t anymore. A GM replied that they don't want us "farming" the mission spaces. And I also noticed that mining missions no longer have anything extra to mine -- just the precise amount of some weird ore that the agent wants. It sucks. Disappearance of ice in 0.8 and higher systems sucked, came as a total surprise, and killed a lot of my plans, including getting a freighter. I canceled training and abandoned some of my plans for doing stuff in Eve. Plans being discussed for eliminating static asteroid belts suck. If CCP thinks we're gonna do scan probing just to find belts to mine, they're smoking some very bad stuff. As to the general belief that CCP wants to force us into low sec and 0.0... if it's true, CCP is in for some big surprises and risks ruining Eve.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Alora Venoda ^this^ because of such high values on low-end ores, most of the "average quality" 0.0 is not worth mining and the risk vs reward is out of balance. possible solution: make those "medium-end" ores like jaspet, hedbergite, and spodumain actually worth more than the low-end ores like veldspar and plagioclase... or make them more accessible. currently they are generally considered trash ores because they are worth considerably less than hi-sec ores but are only found in lowsec or nullsec. My guess is that the easiest (and probably most effective) way of changing this is to tweak the unit size of the ore. The fact that veld only takes up 0.1m¦/unit is one of the main reasons why it's so profitable to begin with: you get tonnes of it with each cycle, and you can transport it by the bucketload with zero effort. Measure this against the supposedly more valuable (as in more rare) ores, which are gigantic in comparison.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:52:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. HI CCP Prism X, In answer to your question, Sir. I feel that it is grossly unfair to have non depletable ice belts while the other mineral belts are often depleted and have poor respawns. I been thru about 15 different system in and around Ashokon. All I ever see is virtually empty asteroid belts. Or minimal ones at best. Unless of course you find ice. Ice seems to never ever die out. While all the other belts are frequently drained. IMO I think this should be examined. It would be nice if all the belts were either non depletable or placed on the same playing field and allowed to become depleted but with faster respawns then we have at the momment across the board.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 20:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Nova Fox I think what he is saying is why does ice belts with 200 people mining it barely dent nining it all day while asteroid belts with 99% less folks dies out within a hour or two. Exactly, my thoughts!!
SiJira	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Mr Cleann Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. HI CCP Prism X, In answer to your question, Sir. I feel that it is grossly unfair to have non depletable ice belts while the other mineral belts are often depleted and have poor respawns. I been thru about 15 different system in and around Ashokon. All I ever see is virtually empty asteroid belts. Or minimal ones at best. Unless of course you find ice. Ice seems to never ever die out. While all the other belts are frequently drained. IMO I think this should be examined. It would be nice if all the belts were either non depletable or placed on the same playing field and allowed to become depleted but with faster respawns then we have at the momment across the board. careful what you wish for what will you say if they keep the ice fields undepletable and the ore fields undepletable too ice belts should have the same respawn rates as the asteroid belts and no respawn rate should be increased Trashed sig, Shark was here
Draekas Darkwater Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:10:00 - [56] Scanable belts are a fine option, IF A) They are either made a LOT easier to find and not the huge time sink it is currently. or B) They are made a hell of a lot more valuable than they are now. Either with higher value ore (these days that means only the good 0.0 ore at current prices), or higher quality high sec ore (ie.. change dense veldspar to only spawn here and up the yield bonus to 50% or something). Another option would be to let mission roids persist after a mission is turned in, as wrecks do, but until downtime. This would let you complete missions.. keep the BM to then return and mine yourself, give to corp mates to mine, ect. My main beef with high sec asteroids, is how small they are. The player base is growing, but resources are not scaling to that growth. Personally, I gave up using T2 strips, simply because, most of the time, the extra m3/cycle they provided is completely wasted. At least with ice, your skills and gear can be fully utilized, even if ice isn't worth as much. Of course, there's always the annoying "someone else already mined that roid, but my strip miner is too dumb to realize it, so I get nothing" phenomena. Personally, I'd like to see ore mining switched to something like Ice mining, where you only get ore at the completion of a cycle. However, reduce the cycle time somewhat and/or remove some/all mining yield bonuses and switch them to cycle reduction bonuses. Then, make a roid's ore amount, its hull hps and show it on the overview.. not the number, but a health bar... a number if a you have a roid scanner (passive module now). So, just like you're shooting a ship, you can see how much roids have left in them as you fire. So basically, you have a set amount of yield for each mining laser/laser-crystal setup, which is mined at the end of each complete cycle. Finally, to add another pet peive of mine... just remove the minimum refining amount. I'm sure it was added for some mineral ratio reason or some such thing.. but, its still annoying and seemingly pointless to me, except to clutter up stations with left over ore I can't refine. =P
Zanpt Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:18:00 - [57] Originally by: SiJira careful what you wish for what will you say if they keep the ice fields undepletable and the ore fields undepletable too ice belts should have the same respawn rates as the asteroid belts and no respawn rate should be increased That would be OK with me. I haven't heard anyone make a meaningful case for making ice depletable, and I would certainly like ore to be more plentiful. BTW, the amount of ore an asteroid contains is linearly related to its size instead of geometrically related to its size. That's a physics fail. They grow the roids to sizes like 32K but even those large roids don't fill a jetcan. I think CCP said to themselves, "Gee, we can't let someone mine a single roid for hours or days..." Yeah, they never make anything reasonably easy; they always have to make things difficult. In the case of large roids they violate physics to make them have a pitifully small amount of ore.
Cloned S0ul	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:28:00 - [58] Edited by: Cloned S0ul on 29/04/2008 21:32:37 In my opinion best profitable ore in Empire. Veldspar-low price for trit but large amount inside ore 3.20 is ok price 6 month ago a bit more at 2.10 isk (buy ofer) Next ore...Pyroxeres,plagio,scordite mean all low minerals in one... Omber nice amount of isogen but is chep actualy 60isk+ in empire btw low quanti of it in empire hard to get smal roid etc,for me a waste time to mine it same like kernite...(mission runers ore) but if somone need it for production why not. And about ice...yes i know ice belt are big and hard to broke,easy to mine,but players in eve need it in actualy form,we have a lot pos in space those Structure eat a lot of ice product withaut it whole politick in eve can broke wery fast(terytory lose etc) Respawn ore hmm...no idea about it but if belts can respawn faster price of minerals - ships etc go low ,that can destroy market and economy.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.04.29 21:47:00 - [59] Right, after reading over this I'm still somewhat confused. Kinda think this discussion is rather all over the map and lacks in focus. Maybe that is just me, I've grown somewhat used to dealing with other things than rational discussions of late (see, I can't even keep a jab out of my posts any more.. but maybe that's nothing new) so maybe I'm just having a hard time following non-direct assaults. At any rate, the OP is concerned with Ice fields not depleting in empire (please correct me if I'm wrong here) or, on the flip side, asteroids actually depleting. Several points have been raised as to why and the best one would be POS logistics. There are obvious counterpoints here as well the most notable being that, logistics aside, it isn't really a scarce resource compared to other minerals (but please keep in mind that those minerals do not only come to being from mining alone). Now to shed some light on things, albeit a very dim and flickering candlelight, the fact of the matter is that most icebelts renew at a slower rate than other basic empire asteroid types. But rate is quite misleading as, and this is common knowledge, a single ice roid contains more quantity than your average asteroid and this leads to ice belts taking ages to clear out whereas asteroids do not. Hence they generally have a lot more of 100% ice roids in them whereas the asteroid belts have incomplete asteroids in them. This might be something we'd want to look at in the futureÖ. I'm pretty sure there's someone in Game Design who'd like to sit down and crunch the numbers as the mining industry fuels the manufacturing industry which supplies the demand of PvPers and PvEers alike. Hence I'd like to see the discussion go forwards, even if it's all over the place with no real focus. However, there are some misconceptions as to how the asteroid reseeding actually works and a single forum post is not the place to clear those up. It really wouldn't be fair for the miners who don't bother reading my posts (yeah I know.. "Who cares about fair!" really). Perhaps I should check with my superiors and Game Design and see how they feel about a dev blog explaining how asteroids respawning works. As always I promise nothingÖ. It would definitely aid any player driven discussion on the issue but there might be other factors a mere Database Developer like me does not consider which is why I have other people to shed light on those things. I suggest you expect nothing, but one never truly knows. Carry on then. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Zanpt I must say I don't understand this discussion either. We mine in hi sec and make money. We also build stuff instead of selling the minerals. We mine ice for POS fuels... we never buy or sell ice or ice products. Mining ice is a pleasure, much more relaxed than mining pebbles of ore that pop frequently. I really can't understand ppl who want to nerf stuff. If you want ice to become more rare so you can make ISK selling it, screw you. If you can't make any money mining ore, you're doing something wrong or you're in the wrong place in the huge Eve universe. If serious changes are made that make mining ice much more difficult or that make asteroid belts disappear or spawn more poorly, some of us will lose interest. We probably won't leave Eve but we'll drop back our many multiple accounts to a smaller number, as serious changes would likely break things for us. The better things work for us, the more accounts we pay each month. The worse things work for us, the fewer accounts we pay each month. Im not looking to get anything nerfed, I looking for a more ballance with regards to the ore/ice. Either make the ice depletable and increase the spawn rates for all the belts. Or make all the belts non depletable like the ice. One or the other. Just make the field more even. I shouldn't have to go 25 jumps to find a decent roid belt to mine in while ice miners can sit happily knowing they wont ever have to relocate.

boldielocks Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:53:00 - [61] Edited by: boldielocks on 29/04/2008 22:54:34 My 2 isk, Roid do pop to quick around trade hubs and tbh thats good it makes people spread out, But and it a big BUT i would ask has the respawn rate of roids been looked at since eve has gone live? I don't know and i doublt anyone but the Dev that looks after roids would know (can you ask him? and let us know) I think we do need a revaluation on roid respawn rates and how big they can grow periodicly as eve population grows (every 6months) I know it's lovly to think suply and demand and all that but this does need to be taken into consideraation as it does effect everyone. Now that the top value of trit has been lifted thanks to shuttle removel (thank you CCP) it is now down to the miners to supply the huge amount of trit that the pvper need (yes I know that it can be genrated by loot as well, but i don't think in sufficant quantitys) I know people will call me a carebare etc etc but gone are th days of the pure mining corp that I use to know 2-3 years ago most corps now would not think about calling them selves mining corps as every one wants to do other things bu give miners roids which they can really dig into with moden mining equipment (hulks) like they can with ice roids people will go back to mining again I also think this comes down to the addition of better miners (hulks again) when we had to mine in cruisers or bs's (apoc 4tw here) we did not mine out a roid in 1 cycle of a laser now we do. That needs to change make mining better, even if you reduce the number of belts in systems but stack up the roids into 1 or 2 belts incresse the regenaration of them in the process but pls do somthing to make them match the longgavity of the iceroid that would get people back to mining the ore again And for the people that say go mine in low sec or 0.0 I do and i can still strip a belt in a couple of hours becsue the belts that get mined in 0.0 or low sec are around secure areas or station and are regully mined like empire belts. Yes there are area's in 0.0 that don't get mined but they tend to be in area's with no stations or area's with low end ore that require POS that are not profitable to run by the time you add inthe cost of Fuel extra equipment and time. anyway this is my ramberling sorry for terable spelling etc i hope that this might get looked at and once again we can have proper mining corps and roids that are once again BIG like it was wwhen i started. There's no such thing as madness, just diffrent degrees of normality.
El Muerte The Nine Gates	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:13:00 - [62] I Love how he says he doesn't see what the problem is. Just warp to any belt and ask yourself... "Where's the roids?" Man we should make that into a commercial slogan. Seriously, ask someone at the top of the food chain to start repopulating the belts so that these fancy lil hulks / Rorquals etc of ours actually have something to mine.
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.04.29 23:13:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Prism X Right, after reading over this I'm still somewhat confused. Kinda think this discussion is rather all over the map and lacks in focus. Maybe that is just me, I've grown somewhat used to dealing with other things than rational discussions of late (see, I can't even keep a jab out of my posts any more.. but maybe that's nothing new) so maybe I'm just having a hard time following non-direct assaults. At any rate, the OP is concerned with Ice fields not depleting in empire (please correct me if I'm wrong here) or, on the flip side, asteroids actually depleting. Several points have been raised as to why and the best one would be POS logistics. There are obvious counterpoints here as well the most notable being that, logistics aside, it isn't really a scarce resource compared to other minerals (but please keep in mind that those minerals do not only come to being from mining alone). Now to shed some light on things, albeit a very dim and flickering candlelight, the fact of the matter is that most icebelts renew at a slower rate than other basic empire asteroid types. But rate is quite misleading as, and this is common knowledge, a single ice roid contains more quantity than your average asteroid and this leads to ice belts taking ages to clear out whereas asteroids do not. Hence they generally have a lot more of 100% ice roids in them whereas the asteroid belts have incomplete asteroids in them. This might be something we'd want to look at in the futureÖ. I'm pretty sure there's someone in Game Design who'd like to sit down and crunch the numbers as the mining industry fuels the manufacturing industry which supplies the demand of PvPers and PvEers alike. Hence I'd like to see the discussion go forwards, even if it's all over the place with no real focus. However, there are some misconceptions as to how the asteroid reseeding actually works and a single forum post is not the place to clear those up. It really wouldn't be fair for the miners who don't bother reading my posts (yeah I know.. "Who cares about fair!" really). Perhaps I should check with my superiors and Game Design and see how they feel about a dev blog explaining how asteroids respawning works. As always I promise nothingÖ. It would definitely aid any player driven discussion on the issue but there might be other factors a mere Database Developer like me does not consider which is why I have other people to shed light on those things. I suggest you expect nothing, but one never truly knows. Carry on then. Yeah where as a big Ice roid has 90.000 units in it (which would mean 90 million m3!) would take years to deplete, I could fit a Veldspar roid with 90.000 units in my cargohold. That and there are nowhere near the same amount of Ice miners as there are normal miners. Added to that is the Ice Refining is very skill intensive, making it less attractive. To top it off, mining Ice in anything but a Mackinaw or a Hulk is a waste of time. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Draekas Darkwater Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.04.30 00:44:00 - [64] I suppose the question is, should ice/ore asteroids replenish based on # of units per day, or XXXX m3 per day. I'd have to guess that it is based on units, and there's where the ice/ore disparity comes from. Unless Ice is intentionally seeded differnetly to ensure no scarcity. I suppose the main issue is that of scarcity. If the EVE high sec population keeps growing, its quite possible that ore shortages will be a result.. similar to how moon mining material shortages are materializing now. Do you want to build the economy based on true scarcity (moon mining), or just on supply issues based on the number of people willing to do the job of extracting the material. Currently, as I see it. Ice mining has no scarcity, but ore and moon mining do.. with moon mining having reached its cap for some moon types. While ore isn't even near that cap, although it gets closer with each new sub, at least for high sec. It is also largely offset by the huge numbers of minerals that come from mod reprocessing. Especially since minerals are subsidized by CCP, with NPC goods reprocessing, if all miners in the game quit tomorrow, I really wonder how much the mineral prices would change. As far as I know, however, ice products are NOT subsidized. There is no NPC sold good that can reprocess into isotopes, ect. Maybe that's why CCP has seeded so much of it into the game, so that it never runs out. Is true scarcity (IE like crude oil in real life( good for the game? In my opinion, yes and no. Its certainly good for the ebb and flow of the economy.. as in, the market determines the price, ect. However, this is a game and not real life. Adding real scarcity to the game might increase the price of items dramatically. This would not be inflation.. as the money supply would not have been increased. It would simply be a result of the increased value of ice products, due to scarcity, as crude oil has recently in RL. As a result, invention might cost more, POS networks are more costly to maintain, ships cost more due to increased cost of BPCs and invention, ect ect. Probably leading to less PvP, as more gets risked per fight. Plus whatever other unintended consequences it may have.
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.30 00:53:00 - [65] I just don't buy the initial premise, presuming the initial premise is that belts are getting cleaned out too quickly. Essentially because my character is currently mining in 0.9 system that hasn't even been cleared out of Rich Plag yet. In my admittedly somewhat limited experience in Gallente and Amarr space, just visiting systems a little less populated is the thing to do.
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.04.30 14:51:00 - [66] I think all miners should go on strike for better respawn times on the roids. . On a serious not I tend to agree. Something needs to be done to the respawns. When mining ice you can literally sit at 1 ice roid for weeks and not worry about it being depleted. While if you sat at one mineral asteroid and have it gone in a matter of minutes at best. What is wrong with this picture? If your mining ice you're set. no hunting for another ice belt cause the one belt you are at will not deplete. Hell not even one ice roid will die off. While if you are mining minerals. You have to go on a quest just to find a belt that is half way decent to mine. That sux. For atleast the past 9 months I can only find belts that only have pebbles in them. At best. The belts respawns are grossly one sided when it comes to ice and minerals. I feel that the mineral roids should be brought up on par with the ice or the ice should be toned down to that of the mineral roids. I would much prefer a faster respawn myself. But if I have to continue to hunt for decent roids to mine. Then the ice miners should have to do likewise.
Blind Jhon Amarr Alenia psy departement	Posted - 2008.04.30 15:24:00 - [67] Edited by: Blind Jhon on 30/04/2008 15:25:36 Edited by: Blind Jhon on 30/04/2008 15:24:50 Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. OMDG OMFKHJLMNOPQG THEY'RE NERFING THE ASTEROIDS OH GOD OH MY OH YOU AAAAAAAAA NERFING THE SPACE OH NO WAIT WHAT DFSHLFN@@@! ++**¦_¦º I GOT MY BRAIN NERFED seriously the price have grown up, and after the goons jihad macrominer are starving.... you don't think tath us poor miner are a bit kikked off the game? i mean -if you mine afk while studinga brutix blow you cause you macro for a billion isk a hour -if you mine whitouth an alt allways present in his industrial you get all the ore theft away -when finally you mined everything and sell the ore or the manufact a noob arrives and put everything 0.5 isk lower than you (because trust and cartels are bad ) and you don't sell anything for a month.... i live in gallente, and the belts here are pretty empity (especially omber) all the week.... the only thing tath is too omnipresent (excuse me chribba) is veldspar here my poor and a bit flamers two cent sig removed, it broke our forums - Mitnal
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.04.30 15:38:00 - [68] Originally by: Blind Jhon OMDG OMFKHJLMNOPQG THEY'RE NERFING THE ASTEROIDS OH GOD OH MY OH YOU AAAAAAAAA NERFING THE SPACE OH NO WAIT WHAT DFSHLFN@@@! ++**¦_¦º I GOT MY BRAIN NERFED seriously the price have grown up, and after the goons jihad macrominer are starving.... you don't think manufacture is allready an hard job? and miners are a bit kikked off the game? i mean -if you mine afk while studinga brutix blow you cause you macro for a billion isk a hour -if you mine whitouth an alt allways present in his industrial you get all the ore theft away -when finally you mined everything and sell the ore or the manufact a noob arrives and put everything 0.5 isk lower than you (because trust and cartels are bad ) and you don't sell anything for a month.... i live in gallente, and the belts here are pretty empity (especially omber) all the week.... the only thing tath is too omnipresent (excuse me chribba) is veldspar here my poor and a bit flamers two cent What? When I mine AT THE KEYBOARD with my alt hauling and my other in a command ship giving mining bonuses I don't make over maybe 12 million an hour.
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.04.30 15:42:00 - [69] Prism X while your looking at asteroid belts, respawn rates, mining and stuff, maybe the powers that be could have a look at The Mining Mechanics ? The above coupled with better quality belts/respawn rates would definitely make mining worthwhile again. Hope im not being too pushy, but hey you never get anywhere by sitting back and doing nothing
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.04.30 15:42:00 - [70] PrismX, We are trying to say, (at least I am) that Roids are no longer keeping up with demand of minerals. With the removal of the Trit cap from NPC shuttles we need more Veld. No matter where you are thats the biggest need to build T1 is Trit and then Zydrine (for me it is anyway). Asteriods should hold MUCH more in them so we can TRY to keep up with the demand. I mine my butt off but most of the time I fly out to my systems roid fields and they are stripped. I have to make my move after respawn days. If CCP drastically upped the limit of roids then our free market economy acn actually work unhindered like it is supposed to without game limited resources.

Demetrius True	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:10:00 - [71] Anyone who travels empire and visits roids fields can see the depleted state of most fields. You will also notice that there are few mining ops going on. Eve's asteroid fields need a look at respawn rates. Maybe its the increased user base or there was a change in one of the patches/updates, but it didn't used to be this depleted in the roids fields in the past. Personally, I'd like to see some form of scanning/hunting process put into place for miners, so that we add some discovery effort to get lucrative mining back to the game. It would add an element of skills, discovery and individual effort back in to the game for miners.
Cagot Gallente Ion Corp.	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:11:00 - [72] Edited by: Cagot on 30/04/2008 16:14:35 My two isk: Making low-end moon mining and reacting profitable is already hard enough, and low-end moons are all that's left if you don't have the resources to kick someone else off. This means we don't need ice prices to go up: ice roids should continue to be plentiful. It's fine for ice products to be limited solely by how much a miner wants to mine. As long as there are plenty of ice chunks I wouldn't mind having them pop, to make more work for the macro miners; or having them spread out across more systems and/or mixed in with rocks, to make more work for the Goon suicide squads. I also agree that there should be plenty of ore for a motivated miner to mine. With the trit caps gradually being lifted (coupling arrays, shuttles, and whatever's next -- civilian afterburners or something, still at 3.60?) the trit needs to come from somewhere... and that's mostly veld mining. I like mission mining, and when I'm mining solo I'll wait for one where I can warp in directly. I used to be really happy when I got "Downing the Slavers", because it had eight huge omberoids that I could farm for a week. Too bad omber is now near the bottom of the barrel. Still, there are still several missions with a fair amount of veldspar outside the deadspace. Not exciting, but useful. I'd prefer to see better ores and bigger rocks in missions: perhaps lvl 4 missions should have better resources than lvl 1. On that subject, why would the devs not want us to farm a mission roid field for a week? There's a tradeoff you have to make: tying up your agent and forgoing the speedy completion reward. What's the problem here?
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:17:00 - [73] Originally by: Cagot My two isk: Making low-end moon mining and reacting profitable is already hard enough, and low-end moons are all that's left if you don't have the resources to kick someone else off. This means we don't need ice prices to go up: ice roids should continue to be plentiful. It's fine for ice products to be limited solely by how much a miner wants to mine. As long as there are plenty of ice chunks I wouldn't mind having them pop, to make more work for the macro miners; or having them spread out across more systems and/or mixed in with rocks, to make more work for the Goon suicide squads. I like mission mining, and when I'm mining solo I'll wait for one where I can warp in directly. I used to be really happy when I got "Downing the Slavers", because it had eight huge omberoids that I could farm for a week. Too bad omber is now near the bottom of the barrel. Still, there are still several missions with a fair amount of veldspar outside the deadspace. Not exciting, but useful. I'd prefer to see better ores in missions: perhaps lvl 4 missions should have better ore than lvl 1. On that subject, why would the devs not want us to farm a mission roid field for a week? There's a tradeoff you have to make: tying up your agent and forgoing the speedy completion reward. What's the problem here? I don't know why the Devs thought it would be good to shoot at miners that try to mine missions. Or remove thier respawns. That is a superior method IMO. Macroers aren't going to run missions for the roids. So that leaves the REAL players to do that. ISK farmers MAY do that since they already run missions anyway, but really you can't stop that because those are real people playing. You have to catch them in the buying and selling act, not the making the ISK act. PrismX can you explain to us why the Devs made it HARDER and less effective to mine out missions?
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.04.30 17:25:00 - [74] Edited by: Crazy Renegade on 30/04/2008 17:25:39 Seeing that the use of macro's is aginst the eula (atleast thats what I hear) Is there any way you can make them blink that awsome shade of crimson red so that we can have fun with them. Once they have been found out and are confirmed macroers by CCP (i'll leave the how they find out that to them). CCP can tag them for a few days on the first incident to serve as a warning and after that make the tag permant. This might help to curb the macros.
renegade leader	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:52:00 - [75] I agree. Something needs to done with the respawn rates of the asteroids. I cant help but notice that the ice belts don't seem to eve deplete. Yet the other asteroids disappear in a matter of a couple hours. Why is that? The respawns in for the mineral belts seem almost non-existant. Atleast for me. I can't remember the last time I have seen a full mineral belt. I think it was about half a year or so since I have seen a decent size belt. Now I find my self having to go hunting to find the ever elusive asteroid belt that hasn't been exhausted. While the ice belts seem to never run out. According to one post in this thread. I hear that you can literally mine the same ice roid for weeks on end without it depleting. Is that true? if so, I thinkit should be looked at and adjusted properly. By either seriously increasing the respawn of the mineral belts or making the ice more compatible with the other resources in the game. By letting them delete and respawn in a simular time frame as the rest of the resource
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.04.30 22:18:00 - [76] Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 30/04/2008 22:18:43 Originally by: renegade leader Edited by: renegade leader on 30/04/2008 22:04:50 I agree. Something needs to done with the respawn rates of the asteroids. I cant help but notice that the ice belts don't seem to deplete. Yet the other asteroids disappear in a matter of a couple hours. Why is that? Anymore the respawns for the mineral belts seem almost non-existant. Atleast to me. I can't remember the last time I have seen a full mineral asteroid belt. If I strain myself, I think it was about half a year or so since I have seen a decent sized belt. Now I find my self having to go hunting to find the ever elusive asteroid belt that hasn't been exhausted. Often traveling atleast 11+ belts. While the ice belts seem to never run out. According to one post in this thread. I read that you can literally mine the same ice roid for weeks on end without it depleting. I tend to believe that as I have mined ice an entire day at one roid without it depleting. Is that true? if so, I think it should be looked at and adjusted properly. By either seriously increasing the respawn of the mineral belts so that they are in tune with the ice belts or making the ice more compatible with the other resources in the game. By letting them deplete and respawn in a simular time frame as the rest of the resource. No kidding lol. I feel like the proverbial red headed step child when I mine ore. As I am constantly having to go on a vision quest before I find a system with decent amounts of ore worth mining. I remember back when I first started eve and was shoved out the airlock in my rookie ship in Duripant and saw how full the asteroid belts were. They were HUGE. I recently went back there several times. Only to find that it is never respawned. If it has been respawning then it is rapidly used up by either players or macros. I did this for a month straight as I am only 6 jumps from that system. Yet still no roids worth mentioning to be found. Yet ice seems to be at a constant ammount. It would be nice to see ore back in the game. I am surprised that rookies can make a decent living in that system. hears my . A full respawn every couple of days would be nice. Like say Mondays and Fridays. Or perhapse every other day. What ever is decided by the Dev's I feel would be a vast improvement over the current situation.
renegade leader	Posted - 2008.05.01 14:53:00 - [77] lastnight I went out looking for minerals had to travel about 25 jumps before I stumbled across a d/e system that had decent minerals to mine. If I could I would place 100 sentry guns in that system to protect my claim :) Too bad the ice miners dont have to go looking for fresh resources like the rest of us.
Thenoran Caldari Knights of MADD Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.01 15:33:00 - [78] Originally by: renegade leader lastnight I went out looking for minerals had to travel about 25 jumps before I stumbled across a d/e system that had decent minerals to mine. If I could I would place 100 sentry guns in that system to protect my claim :) Too bad the ice miners dont have to go looking for fresh resources like the rest of us. But then again, where as you have atleast some activity in managing what your Strip Miners are doing (locking new roids as old ones deplete), all we can do is watch our Mackinaws fire beams at big bits of Ice, thats it. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Tbear Cave Bear Mining	Posted - 2008.05.01 16:01:00 - [79] Yesterday I too spent six hours touring Khanid and Tash Murkon systems looking for possible mining locations in 0.5 and above system. Sadly I found very few systems that were healthy. Most were depleted belts. A few were mineable, but none were healthy asteroids fields. I hope the devs will boost the respawn rate and bring back the big fat healthy asteroid fields that power the eve universe.
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:20:00 - [80] I too started on a little exploration in my force recon just to scout for new mining areas near my home system. Unfortunatly in the 30+/- belts that I visited. I only found 5 systems that had simi-decent resources worth mining. Not counting the Ice belts I came across. I mine both Ice and Minerals. I find it very convienant to mine ice as I either keep the resouces from it to my self and corp m8s or I eventually sell them. But I have been finding out that in the even that I want to build something. I am two sheets to the wind with no star to steer by. In other words I'm virtually assed out of resources to us mine.

xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:34:00 - [81] the spawn rates on roids and such are fine... ppl just need to move to other places to mine theres 5000+ systems in eve with many belts in each system pleanty of places to go. Try spreading out from where everyone is. Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights. [url="http://myeve.eve-online.co
Robert Rosenberg Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:53:00 - [82] I really do not get where you people are coming from, I am sitting in an empire belt staring down 4m Veldspar and there are a dozen more belts in system just like this one. Respawns are only too short if you mine in a system with 100 other people.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:19:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Prism X Right, after reading over this I'm still somewhat confused. Kinda think this discussion is rather all over the map and lacks in focus. Maybe that is just me, I've grown somewhat used to dealing with other things than rational discussions of late (see, I can't even keep a jab out of my posts any more.. but maybe that's nothing new) so maybe I'm just having a hard time following non-direct assaults. Asteroids deplete too fast, Ice does not deplete at all. The respawn rate of the ore means that it takes several days of respawns, providing everyone leaves them alone, to get a reasonable amount of ore. I remember back when you could warp to a belt and see roids as big as moons. You could sit in the belt all day and not even take half of it. Now, all you ever see is pebbles and you can clear an entire belt in just a coule of hours. Ice, on the other hand, never depletes and you can sit and mine a single ice roid all day. Wiping out an entire ice belt is impossible, you can't even deplete a single roid. This is reflected in the price of ice products, supplies are too plentiful so prices are rock bottom. The majority of miners who mine ice in highsec are macros because one roid provides an unlimited supply of ice for them without the need to move, macro mining has never been so easy. 3 Mackinaws mining into one jetcan from a single roid is enough to keep one hauler continuously busy. With so many macroers mining ice, the products have reached an all-time low and only a macro miner can actually make a profit from it. Ice roids should pop and respawn like ore roids do. Ore roids should have a larger respawn amount to allow for far more players we have now compared to two years ago. When I can mine out an entire system (6 belts) in one night alone in a Hulk and it still takes 2 or 3 days to mine enough trit to build a BS, that says the reapawn rate is stupidly small. Add a couple of other players mining in the same system and returns from mining ore are no longer profitable. The only thing I've mined for months now is mission ore when I do a lvl 4 mission with Omber or Plag in it, the returns from it are far better than the time bonus so I let the time bonus lapse out just to get all the ore, then go back for the mission reward only. -- Freighters need a tank
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.01 19:52:00 - [84] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: CCP Prism X Right, after reading over this I'm still somewhat confused. Kinda think this discussion is rather all over the map and lacks in focus. Maybe that is just me, I've grown somewhat used to dealing with other things than rational discussions of late (see, I can't even keep a jab out of my posts any more.. but maybe that's nothing new) so maybe I'm just having a hard time following non-direct assaults. Asteroids deplete too fast, Ice does not deplete at all. The respawn rate of the ore means that it takes several days of respawns, providing everyone leaves them alone, to get a reasonable amount of ore. I remember back when you could warp to a belt and see roids as big as moons. You could sit in the belt all day and not even take half of it. Now, all you ever see is pebbles and you can clear an entire belt in just a coule of hours. Ice, on the other hand, never depletes and you can sit and mine a single ice roid all day. Wiping out an entire ice belt is impossible, you can't even deplete a single roid. This is reflected in the price of ice products, supplies are too plentiful so prices are rock bottom. The majority of miners who mine ice in highsec are macros because one roid provides an unlimited supply of ice for them without the need to move, macro mining has never been so easy. 3 Mackinaws mining into one jetcan from a single roid is enough to keep one hauler continuously busy. With so many macroers mining ice, the products have reached an all-time low and only a macro miner can actually make a profit from it. Ice roids should pop and respawn like ore roids do. Ore roids should have a larger respawn amount to allow for far more players we have now compared to two years ago. When I can mine out an entire system (6 belts) in one night alone in a Hulk and it still takes 2 or 3 days to mine enough trit to build a BS, that says the reapawn rate is stupidly small. Add a couple of other players mining in the same system and returns from mining ore are no longer profitable. The only thing I've mined for months now is mission ore when I do a lvl 4 mission with Omber or Plag in it, the returns from it are far better than the time bonus so I let the time bonus lapse out just to get all the ore, then go back for the mission reward only. Im the kind of player that likes to earn his keep in games the way its ment to be. But hell if the game encourages macro use despite their so called eula statement and what appears to be a lack of enforcement. I just may start using macros for ice. I mean why not? As a honest player that really dispises macros (as it is cheating no matter how you look at it) that is being seriously inconvienanced by having to spend hours to find a belt worth mining when ice is ever present with no chance of depleting. Then why shouldn't I make things easier on my self? It's ludicriss to be spending that much time to find a belt worth mining when I can just do what the game seems to encourage thru its mechanics. I like mining ore better cause I actually have to move from roid to roid periodicly. Giving me a feeling of accomplishment of sorts. Where as with ice I can set up both of my account with a macro and mine ice while I go to bed for 8hrs. The best thing for this situation, I feel any ways, would be to re adjust the respawn rates of the minerals so that they have a little quicker respawn that matches the current player base. As well as readjust the respawn rate for the ice so that it actually depletes at a faster rate so as to ballance out with the rest of the universe.
Robert Rosenberg Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:21:00 - [85] Originally by: Robert Rosenberg I really do not get where you people are coming from, I am sitting in an empire belt staring down 4m Veldspar and there are a dozen more belts in system just like this one. Respawns are only too short if you mine in a system with 100 other people. The belt that I mentioned in this post JUST ran dry of Veldspar (I only mined Veldspar, nonstop from the time of the quoted post until now, all the other ores are still in the belt)
SiJira	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:27:00 - [86] if ice belts were depleted like asteroid belts it would really makes things fun alliances would have another way of griefing other alliances when they could mine out all the ice from the empire systems closest to their enemies Trashed sig, Shark was here
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:06:00 - [87] Originally by: SiJira if ice belts were depleted like asteroid belts it would really makes things fun It really comes down to this. I don't see why they shouldn't suffer from scarcity. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:09:00 - [88] Originally by: SiJira if ice belts were depleted like asteroid belts it would really makes things fun alliances would have another way of griefing other alliances when they could mine out all the ice from the empire systems closest to their enemies I think what it would really cause is for 0.0 territorial holding allainces to actually use POS that use an isotope that is availble to them locally. Since it will become much easier for them to use their locally availble 0.0 ice than defend ice stocks of all four racial types all across the map. --
Caiman Graystock Quantum of Solace	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:22:00 - [89] Edited by: Caiman Graystock on 01/05/2008 22:21:42 <edit>
Crazy Dave	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:35:00 - [90] Originally by: SiJira if ice belts were depleted like asteroid belts it would really makes things fun. alliances would have another way of griefing other alliances when they could mine out all the ice from the empire systems closest to their enemies That is a good point as they wouldn't be able to rely on their ice fields to always be there. Another good reason to look in to adjusting the respawn rates of All of the belts.

Morux	Posted - 2008.05.03 08:57:00 - [91] After spending hundreds of hours mining and exploring the game mechanics of roid belts, the two types of mining in the game have two separate problems, stemming from one source: Mineral belts suffer from depleted volumes because of macrominers. I typically strip up to 1 mil m3 worth of ore in a night but usually this can only be done in systems with no stations (thus no macros). About 10-15% of hisec belts will grow to a size that is worth an uber-miner's time. The rest of them have a terrible yield and your return on effort goes down the drain. By the end of the day, a system with several macros will result in the lesser roids being completely gone, while the better roids are left in a depleted state that still makes it a waste of time. The problem with the ice belts is the isk return in the marketplace - because the "roids" have such a neverending volume, macros can sit at a field all day and haul tons of ice, saturating the market with competing sell orders. It isn't that mining ice is bad, it's just that as an "ice miner", your competing with virtual players that can always undercut you in the marketplace because there is even less effort required than in regular belts (much more efficient for macros in ice fields). I know this has been drudged over many times in the past, but this is really the source of the problem for miners. If there was an actual requirement of effort to acquire these resources, REAL players who want to mine for their "EvE profession" wouldn't be put in bad positions by these danged bots. And if ya think it's just an isolated number of systems that have this happening, spend some time exploring the macro usage in the game - some systems are so infected with these false players that it is just unbelievable. Most are pretty easy to spot and I'd wager a guess that about 50-70% of the barges in the game are NOT real players. Looking at other threads, it seems that FW (factional warfare) may likely let the macroers escape wardecs again, so once more it appears that there won't be a good method of dealing with the issue (just a guess here... hopefully I'm wrong tho). CCP - please give us an option of wardeccing these crappy bots !!! Mkay... rant over.
Commoner Caldari Emergent Chaos Bedlam Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.03 09:19:00 - [92] Edited by: Commoner on 03/05/2008 09:20:45 I'm gonna get flamed for this. One thing i think that needs to happen is that we need to change views on the use of Ice as a whole. What i am suggesting is: 1) Remove or let most icefields deplete. Add alot more icefields to lowsec and 0.0. Result: Increased ice pricess across the line, increased t2 prices as manufacturing costs increases. 1) Putting up tower wouldn't be spam as it is today, real economic decisions should be behind it as fuelling a tower has just become more expensive. 2) T2 becomes something you'd think about fitting as prices have risen because of the decreased ice supply. What i am suggesting, esentially, is to make eve poorer to decrease spending power across the empire. Would accomplish two things: 1) Make ice mining profitable and worth doing for other people than macro miners. 2) Would decrease POS spam as it has just become much more expensive to run these things.
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.05 21:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Morux After spending hundreds of hours mining and exploring the game mechanics of roid belts, the two types of mining in the game have two separate problems, stemming from one source: Mineral belts suffer from depleted volumes because of macrominers. I typically strip up to 1 mil m3 worth of ore in a night but usually this can only be done in systems with no stations (thus no macros). About 10-15% of hisec belts will grow to a size that is worth an uber-miner's time. The rest of them have a terrible yield and your return on effort goes down the drain. By the end of the day, a system with several macros will result in the lesser roids being completely gone, while the better roids are left in a depleted state that still makes it a waste of time. The problem with the ice belts is the isk return in the marketplace - because the "roids" have such a neverending volume, macros can sit at a field all day and haul tons of ice, saturating the market with competing sell orders. It isn't that mining ice is bad, it's just that as an "ice miner", your competing with virtual players that can always undercut you in the marketplace because there is even less effort required than in regular belts (much more efficient for macros in ice fields). I know this has been drudged over many times in the past, but this is really the source of the problem for miners. If there was an actual requirement of effort to acquire these resources, REAL players who want to mine for their "EvE profession" wouldn't be put in bad positions by these danged bots. And if ya think it's just an isolated number of systems that have this happening, spend some time exploring the macro usage in the game - some systems are so infected with these false players that it is just unbelievable. Most are pretty easy to spot and I'd wager a guess that about 50-70% of the barges in the game are NOT real players. Looking at other threads, it seems that FW (factional warfare) may likely let the macroers escape wardecs again, so once more it appears that there won't be a good method of dealing with the issue (just a guess here... hopefully I'm wrong tho). CCP - please give us an option of wardeccing these crappy bots !!! Mkay... rant over. Yes I agree with alot of what is said here. I just spent the weekend looking for a decent belt that wasn't too far away from my corp station. I finallyfound one that was mediocer at best. But I think that was only because it had close to 20 belts in it. Mining is just about a useless thing in eve. With the macroers constantly screwing things up for people that want to play the way the game is supposed to be played. I would like to propose this idea: 1. increase the rate of the respawns for the belts and make the ice deplete at a faster rate or atleast match the mineral belts. 2. Expand the punishment for using macroers by banning all the accounts that, that macro has done bussiness with. I mean every account accross the board. First offense results in an instant ban for a minimum of 200 hours. period. No exceptions. Second time results in a permant ban with no hope of returning to the game. By doing this you would be sending a clear message that this kind of activity will not be tollerated at all. You want to stop this problem then stop using a hammer and chissle on this problem and pull out a grenade, pull the pin and yell here catch. As you toss it to them when they arnt looking. Make them feel the pain for their mistakes. Macros should be viewed along the same lines as isk selling. They are a part of the problem and need a unique way of dealing with them.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.05 22:27:00 - [94] Originally by: Morux After spending hundreds of hours mining and exploring the game mechanics of roid belts, the two types of mining in the game have two separate problems, stemming from one source: Mineral belts suffer from depleted volumes because of macrominers. I typically strip up to 1 mil m3 worth of ore in a night but usually this can only be done in systems with no stations (thus no macros). About 10-15% of hisec belts will grow to a size that is worth an uber-miner's time. The rest of them have a terrible yield and your return on effort goes down the drain. By the end of the day, a system with several macros will result in the lesser roids being completely gone, while the better roids are left in a depleted state that still makes it a waste of time. The problem with the ice belts is the isk return in the marketplace - because the "roids" have such a neverending volume, macros can sit at a field all day and haul tons of ice, saturating the market with competing sell orders. It isn't that mining ice is bad, it's just that as an "ice miner", your competing with virtual players that can always undercut you in the marketplace because there is even less effort required than in regular belts (much more efficient for macros in ice fields). I know this has been drudged over many times in the past, but this is really the source of the problem for miners. If there was an actual requirement of effort to acquire these resources, REAL players who want to mine for their "EvE profession" wouldn't be put in bad positions by these danged bots. And if ya think it's just an isolated number of systems that have this happening, spend some time exploring the macro usage in the game - some systems are so infected with these false players that it is just unbelievable. Most are pretty easy to spot and I'd wager a guess that about 50-70% of the barges in the game are NOT real players. Looking at other threads, it seems that FW (factional warfare) may likely let the macroers escape wardecs again, so once more it appears that there won't be a good method of dealing with the issue (just a guess here... hopefully I'm wrong tho). CCP - please give us an option of wardeccing these crappy bots !!! Mkay... rant over. Agreed, or do SOMETHING else about them. At least TELL US you don't like them and are trying to figure how to slow it down, or that you don't care...somedamnthing. The whole Mining career is innundated with a host of problems. Crappy, extremely weak, achingly slow ships with very poor grid and cap, 95% of them. People mine in Rokhs for a reason. It's just better in a lot of cases which highlights a need for a better ship. Hulk? sure, long skill times, 100 mil for a half-way decent tank requiring another 50-100 mil in fittings. 150-200 mil min for a *******ly slow and wallowing ship that can get owned in 15 seconds by a decent cruiser. The Rorq? was a bone thrown to the career, huge skilling plan needed, mackaddy isk, and people just wanted to use it for hauling anyway, lol. Player driven economy my skinny arse. Not for Empire ICE sure as hell. Probably not for Trit either. shrugs* I've pretty much given up hope on the career, it's fairly obvious that no-one really gives a damn about it. As is, when a n00b asks me what career to choose I would tell him to avoid anything mining related the way it stands now. Unless of course he access to a good bot... All sad, but true.
Zey Nadar Gallente Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:57:00 - [95] Edited by: Zey Nadar on 06/05/2008 06:58:56 Originally by: CCP Prism X Right, after reading over this I'm still somewhat confused. Kinda think this discussion is rather all over the map and lacks in focus. Maybe that is just me, I've grown somewhat used to dealing with other things than rational discussions of late (see, I can't even keep a jab out of my posts any more.. but maybe that's nothing new) so maybe I'm just having a hard time following non-direct assaults. At any rate, the OP is concerned with Ice fields not depleting in empire (please correct me if I'm wrong here) or, on the flip side, asteroids actually depleting. Several points have been raised as to why and the best one would be POS logistics. There are obvious counterpoints here as well the most notable being that, logistics aside, it isn't really a scarce resource compared to other minerals (but please keep in mind that those minerals do not only come to being from mining alone). As always I promise nothingÖ. It would definitely aid any player driven discussion on the issue but there might be other factors a mere Database Developer like me does not consider which is why I have other people to shed light on those things. I suggest you expect nothing, but one never truly knows. Carry on then. I thought it was perfectly clear that the OT doenst like asteroid belts depleting so quickly, and compared them to ice belts. Not that he wanted ice belts to deplete quicker. I agree that empire asteroid belts seem to be sucked dry these days everywhere, whether that is a problem is another issue.
Nova Fox Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:24:00 - [96] I think ice belts not going away fast enough is a problem, 300 people mine one rock for about 4 hrs and barely put a dent in the ice rock, 300 people in ore miners clears out the entire constellation. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.06 14:58:00 - [97] Yep some serious attention needs to be pointed at the respawn rates in the empire belts. The ice seems to never deplete and are ever abundant. Yet the minerals are starting to get so scarece that soon it may effect the supply chain for ships, ammo and equipment... We will see though. Time always tells all.
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.05.06 17:23:00 - [98] I agree, something needs to be done. the respawn rate between the minerals and ice is greatly one sided. I hope the Dev's will decide to improove the repawn rates. I would like to see the mineral respawn times shortened. So that they will respawn at a much faster rate. As well as seeing the ice depletion times sped up so that it can eventually be drained of roids just like their counterparts.
Tbear Cave Bear Mining	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:10:00 - [99] Roid Respawn rate bump please! Empire belts look ugly without something in them.... (other than macro-miners )
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.06 18:15:00 - [100] To repeat it again: ice is 1 belt every 20 systems in high sec, mineral belts are usually 5 or more for each system. If Ice belt depleted at the same rate of asteroid belts we would need as much ice belts as asteroid belt in all EVE.

Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:07:00 - [101] As a Hulk miner that runs 3 accounts to mine, haul and protect, I gave up recently. I used to be able to mine every couple of days when the spawns got up in volumes. Now, after a respawn, I get home from work and they are already gone. Demand is up from the removal of NPC shuttles. Now Veld is a high end ore to mine in ISK value but there is not enough to supply the demand. I also run POS logistics on 12 towers. Half are larges and the other half are mediums. Ice needs to stay where its at. We moon mine and react what we mine and it barely makes a profit. Fuel is expensive enough. We spend about 2 billion a month in fuels just on 12 towers. (I think it might be more) EVE's population is growing but the roids are not. CCP please change this before it seriously effects the economoy! Look at Trit prices now...
Cloora Black River Industries	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:09:00 - [102] I am a miner. I am also a mission runner. Latley I found I make more ISK and more MINERALS missioning and melting the loot. I used to mine in a Hulk. Now I mine in a Raven.
Shattered Wolf Gallente Astrum Contract Services Group	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:35:00 - [103] I'm a hard core miner. Basically, it's all I do in EVE... unless I'm mission running. Or unless my corp needs me to help kill something. I like mining because it's something relaxing to do at night after a long day or something, or just something to pass the time. Oddly enough, I never have had a hard time making money with Ice Mining. If I focus on it (And don't get side tracked with level 4 missions), I can easily bring in enough Ice to make about 300-400 million ISK a week off the Isotopes. The key is mining in one area, and then selling it where the demand is high. The only thing that truely screws up the mining system is those damned Macro Miners. And what makes it even worse are people who think they're cool for ganking defenseless miners thinking they're Macro Miners, or just because they want to wave their E-Peen around a bit and think they're cool. Otherwise, there's always places, even in Empire Space, that can be mined and you can make money from. And I find it funny that some people find mining useless. I wonder where people would ever be able to get minerals if no one mined...
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:43:00 - [104] Originally by: Cloora I am a miner. I am also a mission runner. Latley I found I make more ISK and more MINERALS missioning and melting the loot. I used to mine in a Hulk. Now I mine in a Raven. I am at the point in the game where it is virtually pointless to try and find a decent mineral belt. They simply dont exist or are at such a minimal amount that it is literally a waste of time to setup a mining op. I have turned to melting loot down unless of course its a good named piece of loot. Then either I use it or it gets stored and possibly sold. I would like to see the mineral roid respawns be adjusted to match the growth of the "real" players as well as the "macro" miners. Since Eve would lose a profit should they dump the macros. I can understand not wanting to get rid of them. Based on that. I dont like it, as imho it wrecks the game. At least speed the respawns up. And make the Ice deplete at a faster rate. They are super large belts that, to the best of my knowledge, have yet to lose so much as 1 roid since day 1 of their introduction to Eve.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.06 19:57:00 - [105] Originally by: Ulfgar Rumnarn As a Hulk miner that runs 3 accounts to mine, haul and protect, I gave up recently. I used to be able to mine every couple of days when the spawns got up in volumes. Now, after a respawn, I get home from work and they are already gone. Demand is up from the removal of NPC shuttles. Now Veld is a high end ore to mine in ISK value but there is not enough to supply the demand. I also run POS logistics on 12 towers. Half are larges and the other half are mediums. Ice needs to stay where its at. We moon mine and react what we mine and it barely makes a profit. Fuel is expensive enough. We spend about 2 billion a month in fuels just on 12 towers. (I think it might be more) EVE's population is growing but the roids are not. CCP please change this before it seriously effects the economoy! Look at Trit prices now... There are inconceivably vast amounts of unused ore in lo-sec and 0.0 CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.06 20:32:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. The problem from what I can see is this. I have been pretty much a dedicated miner for several years. With intermittant missioning, PvP, building, ratting ect. As a miner I have noticed a serious decline in mineable asteroid belts. 99% of the ones I have recently visited within the last several weeks. have been seriously depleted. I have yet to be able to locate one that is of decent quantity worth setting up a mining op. They are barely decent enough for a one man operation at best. But for the most part they are practically non-existant. Or may as well be. With the Ice how ever. I find just the opposite. When I come across them they are ALL in decent shape for a major mining operation that can last for EON's without leaving any major dent in the belt. A possible solution to this could be to simply re-adjust the respawn of the roids as well as add alot more ice belts in the universe. Then allowing them to deplete at a noticeable rate. Maybe even shorten the length of those belts as well so that the addition of those new belts wont necessicerily use more resources then is already being used. The newer respawn rate would be as such as matching the population rate of eve as well as compensatingfor the cursed macro cheaters out there. With that being brought up, IMHO, I think its time due to the seriousness of the issue. CCP might want to consider drastic action towards macro users and isk seller / buyers. Place a marker in bright neon colors that both people with color vision as well as those that are color blind on the log in screen or character selection screen. That simply says. "the use of macros, isk selling or buying will result in a permanant ban on the first offense. There will be no chance for appeal". If they dont like the hard ball approach to this problem. Oh well too bad so sad. deal with it and move on. Cause due to your actions you are no longer welcome in Eve. I for one am damn tired of cheaters and if you use a macro or buy isk. Then that is what you are! A cheater that don't have the balls to play the game in a manner that is respectable and expected.
Ulfgar Rumnarn	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:06:00 - [107] Originally by: Malcanis There are inconceivably vast amounts of unused ore in lo-sec and 0.0 And you can't convince me or anyone else except a noob to mine Veld in low sec. most of the trit comes from high sec. Stop trying to get the 95% of the EVE population to come out to low sec and 0.0. We are carebears and we like it in high sec. Or we can all quit and you guys can play EVE for 2 months before it shuts down from lack of funds. Just accept there are differant playstyles. There is already risk with mining in high sec from suicide gankers and can flippers. I like that it makes EVE fun and interesting. The first time I tried mining in a Retreiver in low sec with a friend in a Moa trying to protect me we failed miserably. Not profitable means no one is going to do it. Stop being ignorant
Arknox Minmatar In terrorem Penumbra Unleashed	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:33:00 - [108] about 3 years ago when eve wasn't this populated i did a project on roid spawnage... results were: first respawn from fully stripped belt: 100% increase second respawn : 50% added third respawn : 25% added i assume the fourth would have been 12.5% and so on... also unlike alot of people believe, YOU CAN NOT FARM A BELT TO MAKE IT INTO A SINGLE ORE TYPE !!! ---------- Originally by: JeanPierre You need to examine Minmatar ships bro. No kidding, I tried to Salvage one last night. Took me 20 cycles before the pilot convoed me and told me to stop it.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:01:00 - [109] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ulfgar Rumnarn As a Hulk miner that runs 3 accounts to mine, haul and protect, I gave up recently. I used to be able to mine every couple of days when the spawns got up in volumes. Now, after a respawn, I get home from work and they are already gone. Demand is up from the removal of NPC shuttles. Now Veld is a high end ore to mine in ISK value but there is not enough to supply the demand. I also run POS logistics on 12 towers. Half are larges and the other half are mediums. Ice needs to stay where its at. We moon mine and react what we mine and it barely makes a profit. Fuel is expensive enough. We spend about 2 billion a month in fuels just on 12 towers. (I think it might be more) EVE's population is growing but the roids are not. CCP please change this before it seriously effects the economoy! Look at Trit prices now... \ Dont get me wrong. I like pvp just as much as the next guy. I play Eve because i like the style. I can actually do something without constantly getting jumped. I think its a bad idea to try and push people out in to 00 or low sec if they dont want to go. As for me mining in low sec or 00 that anint going to happen lol. I'm pretty much a so lo player and I im not going to fight a combat ship in a barge lol. Thats suicide. lol. let people decide where they want to go. And please re-adjust the respawn times and make the ice atleast lose an ice cube now and again lol. Thanks There are inconceivably vast amounts of unused ore in lo-sec and 0.0
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:04:00 - [110] Edited by: Malcanis on 07/05/2008 22:05:19 edt: forumscript is frisky today. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.07 22:05:00 - [111] Originally by: Ulfgar Rumnarn Originally by: Malcanis There are inconceivably vast amounts of unused ore in lo-sec and 0.0 And you can't convince me or anyone else except a noob to mine Veld in low sec. most of the trit comes from high sec. Stop trying to get the 95% of the EVE population to come out to low sec and 0.0. We are carebears and we like it in high sec. Or we can all quit and you guys can play EVE for 2 months before it shuts down from lack of funds. Just accept there are differant playstyles. There is already risk with mining in high sec from suicide gankers and can flippers. I like that it makes EVE fun and interesting. The first time I tried mining in a Retreiver in low sec with a friend in a Moa trying to protect me we failed miserably. Not profitable means no one is going to do it. Stop being ignorant Stop throwing insults at someone who's not trying to make anyone do anything. There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Now it might be a problem for you that hi-sec veld is becoming a scarce resource, but that doesn't mean it's a problem for me, or indeed for the game as a whole. In fact finite resources are what EvE is all about. In fact a decline in the empire supply of tritanium and other minerals would fit very well indeed with the EvE back story and general ethos/direction. And for the record, the fact that you failed miserably in your one lo-sec mining experiment does not mean that it's impossible or unprofitable. Come to that, there's vastly more veld in 0.0 than lo-sec, but that's a side issue. Pilots will follow the money (I know you're too scared, but not everyone is, so bear with me). People don't mine in lo-sec because it's pointless; the ore there makes no more ISK/hr than hi-sec ores, and there's no shortage of hi-sec ore... ...oh, wait. but of course 0.0 space is easier to protect, what with bubbles and all. 0.0 miners like to shoot crokite, arkanor, bistot, sure. But if trit hits 10 ISK/unit, they'll cheerfully shoot Veld or Plag as well. I've had a fair bit of 0.0 mining experience. The money's not bad, the risks are tolerable, especially if you're in a moderately well organised alliance, there aren't any can flippers, and you can often get whole systems to yourself. If you're that desperate to avoid it, well fine, jeez, just set up a mission alt and mine mission rocks and make a little LP income on the side. That still works right? Well, for now, anyway. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Dopefish Amarr Quad and Fish	Posted - 2008.05.08 08:05:00 - [112] You dont get it do you? You want more ore because moving around is too much effort. You want more for less effort. You are not alone. There are thousands of you. There are farmers that do what you want to do but much better than you do. They make it impossible for you to continue to do what you do because the limits to supply is based on them. If ore is free for all then insurance will be the price floor. You will build ships and blow them up. This is bad. This is why ore value is controlled by availability, to keep price above the insurance floor. Ice cant be made into isk unless you sell it. Ice value is controlled By supply and demand. Ice mechanics = Good Ore mechanics = Bad but necessary So for you to have more ore to be afk with, insurance has to go. If insurance goes and ore supply is increased, ore value will plummet. You will be happy for a while, then Ore will become like ice. Personally ill be happy if you get more ore and insurance is removed because my monies in the bank will be worth more. Newbies will be sad for they have no isk and mining is no longer profitable with an ibis.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.08 08:38:00 - [113] To be fair, it's not just macro miners in highsec that are depleting the ore, it's the sheer number of miners as a whole. It was fine when we had <20K users online at any one time but now that figure has doubled. One can argue that more ore means lower economical value but on the other hand, supplies are running low due to increased demand for new ships and such from far more players now. It's one thing to kill off macro miners by reducing the respawn rate but it's another to kill off the game by stunting supplies of minerals. Macro miners have always mined ice because it never pops but in ore belts, they are less abundant due to the locals being more inclined to suicide gank them since petitioning never seems to work. Increase the ore respawn rate and allow ice to deplete. I know this will hurt POS owners but seriously, if your POS is in lowsec, you should be mining ice there instead of towing it halfway across the universe from highsec. Give us the tools to deal with unwanted miners. In highsec, we should still be able to defend our claim, even against NPC corp miners. Wardecs are fine but half the miners stripping our local belts are NPC corps which means they are immune to anything but a suicide gank. -- Freighters need a tank
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source?
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:59:00 - [115] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source? He has only one hand in front of his face so counting above 5% is difficult It's a simple fact that 80% of statistics are made up on the spot. -- Freighters need a tank
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:38:00 - [116] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source? ~75% of systems are in 0.0 and about 10% are in lo-sec. Only a minute fraction of the available ore in those areas is used - miners skim the high-ends in the best systems, the vast, vast majority is ignored. There are whole regions where mining activity is almost nil. Hey wait, maybe if half the ore in hi-sec is used, then a whole 8% gets used. The "ore shortage" is actually a "concord-protected ore shortage". I don't see why that's a bad thing. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.05.08 18:58:00 - [117] i would like to see little ice chunks mixed in with normal asteroid belts. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Chitah Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.05.08 20:01:00 - [118] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source? Considering the trit spawn in the entire universe..probably 5% is a good estimate. I just can't imgaine 0.0 ppl mining veldspar when they can mine other juicy stuff.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.08 20:10:00 - [119] Originally by: Chitah Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source? Considering the trit spawn in the entire universe..probably 5% is a good estimate. I just can't imgaine 0.0 ppl mining veldspar when they can mine other juicy stuff. I have seen them doing that (40 jumps form low sec through 0.0). But seeing Malcais math I would say 10-15% is the top number now that it is not so easy to reprocess shuttles to get trit in the 0.0 NPC regions.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 20:50:00 - [120] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Chitah Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Malcanis There is no shortage of tritanium or other minerals in the game. It is a simple fact that less than 5% of the ore that is spawned each week is used. Interesting data, your source? Considering the trit spawn in the entire universe..probably 5% is a good estimate. I just can't imgaine 0.0 ppl mining veldspar when they can mine other juicy stuff. I have seen them doing that (40 jumps form low sec through 0.0). But seeing Malcais math I would say 10-15% is the top number now that it is not so easy to reprocess shuttles to get trit in the 0.0 NPC regions. The vast majority of 0.0 and lo-sec systems are never mined at all for any ore. It is interesting that the most mineral-rich regions (drone regions) are currently the most hotly contested. Plush alloy is already extremely valuable; if trit prices rise then it will become obscenely valuable. It's an overstatement to say that we're entering an era of resource scarcity, but it may be true that resources are becoming a more significant factor. On a side note, it is evident that CCP have pursued a slow but steady path towards a player-run economy. Simply declining to add more resources to an increasingly populated hi-sec would fit that direction admirably. Once empire miners are genuinely in competition with macrobots, we may see other attitudes change also. It seems so trite to quote Ben Franklin, but still... ...those who trade necessary hi-sec belt rights for a little CONCORD protection will soon find that they have neither CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

renegade leader	Posted - 2008.05.08 21:24:00 - [121] Originally by: Drizit To be fair, it's not just macro miners in highsec that are depleting the ore, it's the sheer number of miners as a whole. It was fine when we had <20K users online at any one time but now that figure has doubled. One can argue that more ore means lower economical value but on the other hand, supplies are running low due to increased demand for new ships and such from far more players now. It's one thing to kill off macro miners by reducing the respawn rate but it's another to kill off the game by stunting supplies of minerals. Macro miners have always mined ice because it never pops but in ore belts, they are less abundant due to the locals being more inclined to suicide gank them since petitioning never seems to work. Increase the ore respawn rate and allow ice to deplete. I know this will hurt POS owners but seriously, if your POS is in lowsec, you should be mining ice there instead of towing it halfway across the universe from highsec. Give us the tools to deal with unwanted miners. In highsec, we should still be able to defend our claim, even against NPC corp miners. Wardecs are fine but half the miners stripping our local belts are NPC corps which means they are immune to anything but a suicide gank. Agreed, But with regards to the ice, Should the Dev's decide to work on this issue and improove things, To compensate the depletion of the ice. more belts should be added to the systems. By cutting the lengths down by 50% to 65% and relocating them to other systems. That aren't in high traveled areas. Like Jita, the lag capital of Eve lol. I agree with Mr. Cleann also. in that serious consequences should be doled out to cheaters, isk sellers and buyers (with the exception of selling time cards on the forums). Post warning on the login screen that states that your account will die a horrible death and be deleted should you do any of the above mentiond things. Cut and dry. No breaks or second chances.
renegade leader	Posted - 2008.05.08 21:32:00 - [122] Edited by: renegade leader on 08/05/2008 21:35:17 A good way for the Dev's to see this problem. Would be to send two man teams in to each of the regions in empire and do a inspection of the asteroid belts (no counting of each rock in the belt is needed lol). If they did this as a routine for a couple weeks they can see what the problem is. If this isn't fixed then supplies will dwindel in empire due to the macro's mining and selling the ore for isk that is then sold on e bay or where ever and the game will become wrecked as soon that will be the only players that may contiue to play Eve. Macro users and there patrons BOTH need to be hit extreamly hard with the new and improoved ban stick, Their accounts and character be permantly erased and not let back in to the game ever.
Pantheon Lea Farmer Boyz	Posted - 2008.05.08 22:53:00 - [123] There is nothing wrong with ICE mining, it's easy, convenient, and not very profitable. The only thing that might need addressing is that it's very macro friendly. For about a year ago, the asteroid respawning mechanics was changed, now the mechanics automatically put ore into the ecosystem equivalent to the amount of minerals taken out of the ecosystem due to ships, modules and other stuff lost in combat. So everything is in balance, there is no need for more ore. If 1 billion tritanium is removed for the ecosystem at any given day, ores equivalent to 1 billion tritanium is added to the game a short time later, the ore is added by increasing every rock in eve a little bit in size, unless that rock has reached it's maximum capacity. Therefore rocks in belts that are easy/profitable to mine, like belts in systems around trade hubs, will always be very small. This is a good thing, it all keeps the ecosystem in balance. what might need addressing is that specialized miners is not rewarded, because small rocks makes strip mining modules or gang boosted miners less effective that they should be, resulting in the fact that specializing is not rewarded. It's not really that hard to find remote system's in 0.5 and above with plenty of belts with big rocks. There you can put up a small POS with hangers, mine into jetcans, haul to hangars, pick up in a freighter and move the ore to a station and refine into minerals, then move the stuff to a trade hub or sell it by contract to a production corp, they are happy to pick up the stuff in return for a steady supply. So in mining, specialising, teaming up and interacting with other players/corps pays off, this is a good thing. How can we make it better without breaking all those good things that are working very well. Just spawning more ore would be a perfect way to ruin everything, that is for sure. Making the asteroid respawning mechanics smarter is an option, ore could be put into only a few randomly selected regions or systems, making the belts in those systems go from empty to full very fast but not so often, that would benefit the specialized miners that do not yet have the resources to buy a freighter ore deploy a POS in a remote system. That would result in a lot of almost empty belts and quite some full belts around trade hubs and popular systems, instead of just all belts being very bad. This is in my opinion a good thing, but it forces miners to move around, and that is not an optimal solution, refining costs among others taken into consideration. Another method, where the amount of ore going into a given belt is not going to be separated equally into all roids, but only a few selected roids, could be a solution, that way you would not see belts with hundreds of very small roids, but some very small or depleted and a few large ones. Personally i would like a combination of the two methods above. Today, the closer you get to a trade hub or populated area, the more certain you will be that the belts will be one long line of very very small roids, and those are not even mineable effectively with a Miner II. I doubt there will be any changes before asteroid belts is moved into the exploration system. The precise Asteroid Respawning Logic is probably the best kept secret in EVE, i know the Invention formulas is not officially put down to paper yet, but Invention is quite new, the Asteroid Respawning Logic has been debated for 5 years now, and no dev has ever given any real hint to how it works as a whole. So good luck with the dev blog Prism X Pantheon Lea
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.09 01:11:00 - [124] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 09/05/2008 01:14:14 The only mission-space asteroid belt that I'm aware is booby-trapped is the one in Blockade (all levels). Level 2 "Unauthorised Military Presence" has one belt full of Veldspar/Plag/Pyro all of 7km from the warp in point, the second pocket has a similar belt about 15km from warp in point. On slow days I just go spend quality time with my level 2 agent. System belts are fine - just mine away from the highly populated systems. Ice belts probably have too much ice in them, if they're not being depleted even in Caldari systems. Oh, Prism X - please please do give us a blog about asteroid respawn mechanics! Who cares if some people don't read it, the news will spread fast enough through the community by word of mouth - or at the very least it will give people who bother to read the forums a competitive advantage for a week or two.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 16:09:00 - [125] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 09/05/2008 16:11:56 Originally by: Pantheon Lea For about a year ago, the asteroid respawning mechanics was changed, now the mechanics automatically put ore into the ecosystem equivalent to the amount of minerals taken out of the ecosystem due to ships, modules and other stuff lost in combat. So everything is in balance, there is no need for more ore. If 1 billion tritanium is removed for the ecosystem at any given day, ores equivalent to 1 billion tritanium is added to the game a short time later, the ore is added by increasing every rock in eve a little bit in size, unless that rock has reached it's maximum capacity. Source please, never seen that ina dev blog, patch note or Dev post. Seem really improbable.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:04:00 - [126] if ice belts became barren from overmining guess where the ice miners would go Trashed sig, Shark was here
Tai Shea	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:15:00 - [127] Edited by: Tai Shea on 09/05/2008 17:15:51 Originally by: Wolf Spyder Edited by: Wolf Spyder on 05/05/2008 23:51:22 You want to stop this problem then stop using a hammer and chissle on this problem and pull out a grenade, pull the pin and yell here catch. As you toss it to them when they arnt looking. Make them feel the pain for their mistakes. Macros should be viewed along the same lines as isk selling. They are a part of the problem and need a unique way of dealing with them. If the offending ship fails to answer the "hail" (ie convo) of a GM after a prescribed time of say 5-10 minutes, incase the player is out of the room. Then that player should be red flagged so that other players can pop them. I actually had a very simialr idea, but the "hail" could be done by any player. Said "hail" would bring up a prompt in a random place (has to be random or you could program a macro to hit a certain spot) in the targeted players screen, that he/she has to click "ok" on, if you they dont respond in say 10-15 min, they go red... and pop... Would have to make it that a player can only be "hailed" once every 30 min or so to avoid abuse, and the "ok" for it must be clicked, enter cant work, to make it harder for macros to clear it. Maybe add a game check that the target is a barge or something.. or it could be abused to cause stress to combat pilots at bad moments. But back on topic.... I certainly think the ore refresh times need updating, I am a dedicated hulk miner with 3 acc's (miner, hauler and foreman), and I enjoy building things. System I am in isnt right next to any newbie starter point (ok its not majorly out the way), but its got 26 belts, and see by early evening, more or less every single belt has been ripped clean by those b****y macroers. Right now, theres 14 hulks in this system, I can almsot guarantee at least 10 of them are macro controlled. Some of you say, "go move to another system then", and yeah I have, again and again, but sure enough after a few weeks, the macroers find it and flood in. CCP, if you cant give us the tools to deal with macroers ourselves, then majorly increase the ore respawn so those of us that try and do an honest evenings mining, to either make some cash or make us a nice shiny new ship, actually have something to mine by the time we get home from work. Maybe not permently, but at least until you get these scanable belts going.. or find some way of getting rid of these damn macroers. (making the hulk so damn cheap didnt help either, but thats a diff story) I'm not gonna mention ice as I dont know enough about it, I mainly concentrate on ore mining as you cant build nowt with ice :P
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.09 20:34:00 - [128] I hope something is done to help the belts. All of them. Ice as well as minerals both need attention. The Ice is a natural haven for macros. Because they simply do not deplete fast enough. Therefore they have the advantage of never running out of mining materail. Thus being capable of running 24/7 365 if they so choose (not counting downtime). If they tried to do this with minerals they would be having to swap belts within a matter of hours. Or minutes if you go with the condition the mineral belts are in today. Something needs to be done to seriously curtail the cheaters (macro / isk sellers and buyers). Bite the profit bullet and get them the hell out of the game or flag them so we can pop them once CCP has tagged them as macroers or those that support them. Or simply hit them with the mighty ban stick. Or re adjust the spawn rate, shorten the ice belts and spread them around so that there is more work involved to find and mine them. While keeping them on the same depletion level as the rest of the things. If we can deplete a moon of resources then why is ice seemingly a non-depletable resource. I hope the Dev's look in to this more and see where we are coming from.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 21:36:00 - [129] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 09/05/2008 21:36:55 Originally by: Tai Shea I actually had a very simialr idea, but the "hail" could be done by any player. Said "hail" would bring up a prompt in a random place (has to be random or you could program a macro to hit a certain spot) in the targeted players screen, that he/she has to click "ok" on, if you they dont respond in say 10-15 min, they go red... and pop... Would have to make it that a player can only be "hailed" once every 30 min or so to avoid abuse, and the "ok" for it must be clicked, enter cant work, to make it harder for macros to clear it. Maybe add a game check that the target is a barge or something.. or it could be abused to cause stress to combat pilots at bad moments. Naturally no one will start hailing you in combat, hoping you will miss the box (as it will be drowned by the other messages) and explode in 15 minutes or you will lose some crucial moment and explode? No, all people play fair, this is EVE. BTW what make you think that in 15 minutes a macro will not hit the box?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 21:41:00 - [130] Originally by: Tai Shea I certainly think the ore refresh times need updating, I am a dedicated hulk miner with 3 acc's (miner, hauler and foreman), and I enjoy building things. System I am in isnt right next to any newbie starter point (ok its not majorly out the way), but its got 26 belts, and see by early evening, more or less every single belt has been ripped clean by those b****y macroers. Right now, theres 14 hulks in this system, I can almsot guarantee at least 10 of them are macro controlled. Some of you say, "go move to another system then", and yeah I have, again and again, but sure enough after a few weeks, the macroers find it and flood in. CCP, if you cant give us the tools to deal with macroers ourselves, then majorly increase the ore respawn so those of us that try and do an honest evenings mining, to either make some cash or make us a nice shiny new ship, actually have something to mine by the time we get home from work. Maybe not permently, but at least until you get these scanable belts going.. or find some way of getting rid of these damn macroers. How is that in 2 years of high sec mining I have seen 2 times mining ships I will call macro or sweatshops farmers? Even if rarely I have mined even in Caldari space. My opinion is that you (as a general category) are prone to calling macro any competition you found, not really checking if they are macro or not.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.09 21:43:00 - [131] Originally by: Wolf Spyder If we can deplete a moon of resources then why is ice seemingly a non-depletable resource.
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.05.09 22:17:00 - [132] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Tai Shea I certainly think the ore refresh times need updating, I am a dedicated hulk miner with 3 acc's (miner, hauler and foreman), and I enjoy building things. System I am in isnt right next to any newbie starter point (ok its not majorly out the way), but its got 26 belts, and see by early evening, more or less every single belt has been ripped clean by those b****y macroers. Right now, theres 14 hulks in this system, I can almsot guarantee at least 10 of them are macro controlled. Some of you say, "go move to another system then", and yeah I have, again and again, but sure enough after a few weeks, the macroers find it and flood in. CCP, if you cant give us the tools to deal with macroers ourselves, then majorly increase the ore respawn so those of us that try and do an honest evenings mining, to either make some cash or make us a nice shiny new ship, actually have something to mine by the time we get home from work. Maybe not permently, but at least until you get these scanable belts going.. or find some way of getting rid of these damn macroers. How is that in 2 years of high sec mining I have seen 2 times mining ships I will call macro or sweatshops farmers? Even if rarely I have mined even in Caldari space. My opinion is that you (as a general category) are prone to calling macro any competition you found, not really checking if they are macro or not. I don't rightly give a damn who is and who is not a macro. Do I hate them? Absolutly. I think anyone that pays to cheat in a game to be fools. There is nothing wrong with separating a fool from his/her money. None at all. My irritation rest with me not being able to find any belts worth mining as a corp op vice an individual op. Unless of course I choose mining the ever abundant, permantly established, never depletable ice belts. If I wanted to mine in low sec I would. Funny thing is I don't. When I want the resources to build I like to get it with as little problems as possible lol. But I guess that the mining belts in empire must succumb to the inevetible and permantly die off. Just wish the ice belts wern't treated so preferientialy. Its a joke to have the mineral belts die off and the ice be allowed to remain indeffinatly. I guess this is CCP's way of trying to control the macros and isk farmers. Too bad. This game seems to becoming a space version of WOW.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.09 23:10:00 - [133] Originally by: Crazy Renegade Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Tai Shea I certainly think the ore refresh times need updating, I am a dedicated hulk miner with 3 acc's (miner, hauler and foreman), and I enjoy building things. System I am in isnt right next to any newbie starter point (ok its not majorly out the way), but its got 26 belts, and see by early evening, more or less every single belt has been ripped clean by those b****y macroers. Right now, theres 14 hulks in this system, I can almsot guarantee at least 10 of them are macro controlled. Some of you say, "go move to another system then", and yeah I have, again and again, but sure enough after a few weeks, the macroers find it and flood in. CCP, if you cant give us the tools to deal with macroers ourselves, then majorly increase the ore respawn so those of us that try and do an honest evenings mining, to either make some cash or make us a nice shiny new ship, actually have something to mine by the time we get home from work. Maybe not permently, but at least until you get these scanable belts going.. or find some way of getting rid of these damn macroers. How is that in 2 years of high sec mining I have seen 2 times mining ships I will call macro or sweatshops farmers? Even if rarely I have mined even in Caldari space. My opinion is that you (as a general category) are prone to calling macro any competition you found, not really checking if they are macro or not. I don't rightly give a damn who is and who is not a macro. Do I hate them? Absolutly. I think anyone that pays to cheat in a game to be fools. There is nothing wrong with separating a fool from his/her money. None at all. My irritation rest with me not being able to find any belts worth mining as a corp op vice an individual op. Unless of course I choose mining the ever abundant, permantly established, never depletable ice belts. If I wanted to mine in low sec I would. Funny thing is I don't. When I want the resources to build I like to get it with as little problems as possible lol. But I guess that the mining belts in empire must succumb to the inevetible and permantly die off. Just wish the ice belts wern't treated so preferientialy. Its a joke to have the mineral belts die off and the ice be allowed to remain indeffinatly. I guess this is CCP's way of trying to control the macros and isk farmers. Too bad. This game seems to becoming a space version of WOW. If you're opposed to macros then campaign to make it easier to gank mioners in hi-sec. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Drizit Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.09 23:31:00 - [134] Originally by: Pantheon Lea It's not really that hard to find remote system's in 0.5 and above with plenty of belts with big rocks. There you can put up a small POS with hangers, mine into jetcans, haul to hangars, pick up in a freighter and move the ore to a station and refine into minerals, then move the stuff to a trade hub or sell it by contract to a production corp, they are happy to pick up the stuff in return for a steady supply. Putting up a POS is easy agreed but keeping it fueled etc in highsec is costly. It would need more than a single system to make it pay well enough. Considering a small corp has to pay for the upkeep of it, earn enough from minerals and find a way of securing their resources from other players (or macros) that might move in and mine it out themselves. You also have the problem with faction standing to enable you to get a POS in highsec. It has taken a very long time for me to even top a standing of 6 and I still have a way to go to get to 8. Either CCP needs to review this standing system or create ways for us to get standing faster if we need to. With faction wars ensuing, standing with one faction means a drop with another and more juicy targets for the opposing side. Now there is a reason to enable us to gain faction standing faster, it should be made possible. -- Freighters need a tank
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.10 08:23:00 - [135] Originally by: Crazy Renegade I don't rightly give a damn who is and who is not a macro. Do I hate them? Absolutly. I think anyone that pays to cheat in a game to be fools. There is nothing wrong with separating a fool from his/her money. None at all. My irritation rest with me not being able to find any belts worth mining as a corp op vice an individual op. Unless of course I choose mining the ever abundant, permantly established, never depletable ice belts. If I wanted to mine in low sec I would. Funny thing is I don't. When I want the resources to build I like to get it with as little problems as possible lol. But I guess that the mining belts in empire must succumb to the inevetible and permantly die off. Just wish the ice belts wern't treated so preferientialy. Its a joke to have the mineral belts die off and the ice be allowed to remain indeffinatly. I guess this is CCP's way of trying to control the macros and isk farmers. Too bad. This game seems to becoming a space version of WOW. So you want to find belts in easy reach with plenty of minerals. How strange, it is exactly what the other 10.000 miners logged in want to find. Maybe that is the reason why you don't find rich belts in easy reach, as other thousand of players beside you are mining the same belts. Nothing to do with macro, a lot to do with number of players. Going a bit out of the way I can find good belts with reasonable ease. Moving the product to a market hub is time consuming so I must weight convenience in transport against better hourly yeld. Pretty simple. Maybe respawn rate must be touched as the number of players has increased, but a better solution would be increasing the number of systems.
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:23:00 - [136] I be playing this game for about 4 years now. I can remember back when the roids were at their full size. Now I can't remember when the last time was that i saw a fully respawned asteroid belt. Now most of them are little tiny pebbleroid fields. Hardly worth the effort to mine in as a group and barely large enough for a solo miner. Yet the ice belts seem to be constantly intact. Yeah people may need to search a few belts before they find one. But once they do. They can no longer worry about having to hunt for another system with ice in it. Unfortunatly this is not true for mining minerals. Once they're depleted they never grow back again. They are in a constant state of depletedness (if that is even a word lol). It would be nice if the belts would either respawn at the beginning of each server restart (normal restart that is) or make the ice deplete a hell of alot quicker than it is. Either way atleast they would both be on a level field and not one side being favored over the other. By increasing the speed of the respawn for the roids. You might make the macro mining or isk sellers go broke. As they would only be serving those that are too lazy to play the game as it was intented to. Then you can isolate thos groups and kick them out of EVE.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:52:00 - [137] allow ice fields to deplete faster and people will go the extra 3 jumps to the systems with untouched asteroids and to losec where ice and asteroids rule the land Trashed sig, Shark was here
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:07:00 - [138] Edited by: Mr Cleann on 13/05/2008 17:15:44 Edited by: Mr Cleann on 13/05/2008 17:13:54 We miners need to all go on strike. :) For faster respawns for minerals or much faster peletion of the over abundance ice fields. I remember back when I made 12 Mil on 100 units of ice. but anyways it would be nice to see better respawn rates for the minerals or a better ballance on the ice depletion rates. Ice as it is is a virtual haven for macroer to hang out as they can mine and mine and mine and mine without worrying about havingto relocate. Ever. Where as us REAL players have to constantly hunt for what can now only be considered as bread crumb asteroids.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:46:00 - [139] Originally by: Mr Cleann Edited by: Mr Cleann on 13/05/2008 17:15:44 Edited by: Mr Cleann on 13/05/2008 17:13:54 We miners need to all go on strike. :) For faster respawns for minerals or much faster peletion of the over abundance ice fields. I remember back when I made 12 Mil on 100 units of ice. but anyways it would be nice to see better respawn rates for the minerals or a better ballance on the ice depletion rates. Ice as it is is a virtual haven for macroer to hang out as they can mine and mine and mine and mine without worrying about havingto relocate. Ever. Where as us REAL players have to constantly hunt for what can now only be considered as bread crumb asteroids. So you think the solution is to give the macroers more things to mine? Interesting. Your dedication to low empire mineral prices suits me very well as a frequent ship-buyer, but I must say your altruism is unusual. In your position I would be asking for more tools to eliminate my competition. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:01:00 - [140] I would rather insta pop macroers. But I dont like what concord does to my ships when I do that lol. I actually out ran them for 3 minutes before they finally popped me. lol. I got popped at a starbase by its sentries when I tried to dock. How long has anyone else lasted when trying to run from concord ?

HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:37:00 - [141] Originally by: CCP Prism X Sorry, I've never been a hardcore miner so I'm not really understanding the problem. But I know the code behind the asteroid reseeding and I must say I'm not quite clear on what the perceived problem here is. Are you saying there is too much ore in the ice roids so that the belts never deplete and due to that fact everyone and their grandmother has ample access to the resource, making it non-scarce and thus hardly profitable to mine for trade? Obviously this reply does not constitute a promise to do anything but I'd like to see the discussion take off and see opinions from both sides. That and a confirmation on my understanding of the proposed problem.. that helps. Heya Prism. I don't have anything to say about roid spawns, but exploration site spawns I do. So, there aren't all that many of these sites. Most systems don't have anything. And then when you finish the site, they respawn somewhere else randomly, who knows. Do you know if more people doing exploration increases the number of sites that spawn in whereever, or do they simply compete for the same few sites? Cause my alliance has a few 0.0 systems and this one weekend I visited something like 40 different 0.0 systems and did not find one single site on the multispec. I wasn't doing anything wrong, i've been doing it for a while. I find sites all the time in less frequented lowsec areas. I just question, if the spawning really is as simplistic as I predict, is that a good thing? I think it would be more fun to encourage people to move around all over the damn place, without requiring it. Also it seems like, the older exploration gets, the fewer sites you find in general. The number of explorers going up, the number of sites staying the same?
Mr Cleann	Posted - 2008.05.15 20:29:00 - [142] I spent about 2 hrs looking for a exploration belt and when I found it lol there was only one partially left roid in the belt. I found out that day that there are some seriously demented people out there lol.
Crazy Renegade	Posted - 2008.05.19 20:41:00 - [143] Man this is really starting to suck. I am constantly having to wander aimlessly in search for anything that is decent to mine in. With the exception of Ice which seems to be constantly very well supplied and zero chance of it ever dying off. Everything else seems to be going by way of the dinosaur. Looks like ore is becoming extinct. With the exception of very few pebbel belts worth mining and not much else of interest I think I am going to consider taking a long break from eve and find something else that is worth while. With the next major upgrade it looks like Eve is going to become a space age version of Wow. I didn't care much for Wow that is why I came to Eve. But I'll wait and see. If Eve becomes Wow then. It's time to go. And no you cant have my stuff. Im stingy, I like keeping my things to myself. If I wanted Pvp I'd be in nullsec carving a living there. I liked both sides. If i didn't want to be bothered I had Empire. If I wanted to cook someone ship and watch it pop I could go to 00. Now someone is trying to bring Wow in to Eve. Like I said. I'll wait and see. But in the mean time can you speed up the respawns on the ore or kill off the ice. Someone is playing favorites with one mineral and treating the other like a red headed step child. Thanks.....
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries	Posted - 2008.05.19 21:44:00 - [144] My 2 cent here, probably repeating what other said, but ah well :P My former corp rips 5 solar systems in 1 weekend, without too much efford. ALL the belts are gone on sunday. In the meantime, I see macro-miners sitting in icebelts, making slow, but steady ISK, without being "punished" for sitting in a "safe" environment. -Move ALL high-sec ice-belts to lowsec. -Spawn a bit more Grav sites in highsec (rewards for putting efford in scanning) -Add Ice belts to Grav sites, with 250 cubicles / roid -Leave nullsec as it is.
Wolf Spyder	Posted - 2008.05.20 20:59:00 - [145] I would be happy if the Dev's could either speed up the respawns to better match the ice belts. Or make the ice belts deplete at the same rate as the mineral belts. I'm simply tired of having to go on a quest to find a system that has decent ore worth mining. While the ice never seems to deplete. When I mine ice. I'll admit it is extreamily convienant that I dont have to worry about moving anywhere. As I can rely on the fact that ice will never die off. It is always there and will never be gone. Yet on the other hand I have to mine minerals if I want to build anything. I would love to mine the same mineral roid the way I do Ice and not have to worry about anything depleting. Does this seem alittle lop sided to anyone else? Sure Ice is only in 1 sys out of, what 10? 15? But once you find it you just need to set up camp and you are set for life. Whats wrong here??


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