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[CSM Candidate] Jade Constantine

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:34:00 - [361] Originally by: Hugh Ruka It does not say anything about you changing elected members of the council for the runner-ups. No elected members of the council are being changed. Its a a responsibility of the Chair to oversee an "internal vote" to assign the remaining council positions. This is what I'm doing. If it doesn't happen by Saturday I'd have an appointment authority to simply put people in the positions so I'm actually pushing to do this soon so it can be voted on. If Darius is unable to register a vote on these appointments I'll ask the first alternate to vote in his place. Its pretty simple. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Vio Geraci GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:37:00 - [362] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy The problem is that CCP are completely inept when it comes to writing clear documentation. The CSM.pdf contains 13 pages of roleplay/metagame waffle that no one is going to read and is no consequence and then each step of the process (where the technical details should be) is covered in a simplistic short paragraph without even a comment about where clarifications should be sought. This is the main point I think. The actual document is not very well put to gether and there are a few ways to read each point that actually is covered. Personally I believe CCP needs to put MUCH more effort into creating a working guideline for the CSM rather than expecting them to come up with it themselves. Especially seeing as some of the council seem to trying to be as devisive as possible. For example, there is no way to precipitate a vote of no confidence in the council leader in the case of mental illness or other incapacitating factor.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:37:00 - [363] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place. Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:38:00 - [364] Originally by: Vio Geraci Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy The problem is that CCP are completely inept when it comes to writing clear documentation. The CSM.pdf contains 13 pages of roleplay/metagame waffle that no one is going to read and is no consequence and then each step of the process (where the technical details should be) is covered in a simplistic short paragraph without even a comment about where clarifications should be sought. Good thing we've got Jade Constantine to fill in the blanks! At first I thought CSM was a ruse but this thread, ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:38:00 - [365] Clearly the most sensible solution is for one of the first CSM actions to be proposing a change to the process for selecting the Chairman from the current system of highest vote-getter to a new internal council vote. Jade seems to have gone so far as to say that once that change is passed, he'll have the current Council go back and take a vote to internally select a Chairman according to the newly passed rules. Anybody trying to make anything else out of it is barking up the wrong tree.
Waterfowl Democracy The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:42:00 - [366] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place. Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though. Darius is the one with the amateur dramatics? If you'll look back a page you'll clearly see someone with a name and avatar very similar to yours threatening Darius with losing his votes in the Vice etc. voting if he doesn't show up for an INFORMAL CSM meeting that you have unilaterally decided to hold at almost zero notice DESPITE not having the authority to do so. What you fail to understand is that not everyone who ran for CSM is a self-employed 39 year old software programmer with nothing going on his life other than roleplaying as a female sex slave in an spaceship MMORPG. Not every one of your collegues has time to write page after page of bad fake medieval fiction. If anyone here is guilty of dramatics (amateur or otherwise) it is you.
Gorobom	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:42:00 - [367] Quote: Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though. Like the ones you're causing by trying to abuse your chairman's power?
Idaeus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 - [368] Originally by: Heartstone Especially seeing as some of the council seem to trying to be as devisive as possible. I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements.
BAteh The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 - [369] Congratulations, Jade.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:48:00 - [370] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place. Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though. Do not put words in my mouth. Especially as they are plainly written here for all to see. I said I won't be attending your informal meeting to discuss items which are beyond your purview. Nowhere did I state I would not vote in the thread which was posted for the voting. I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:49:00 - [371] Originally by: Idaeus I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements. As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:49:00 - [372] This is fantastic, congrats Jade. GS, this may be a good time to take a step back and consider the cards that have been dealt. Voting was done by the players, you got dealt a hand, and if things don't work out, the players will realise and the CSM voting process will change next time. Personally I applaude Jade for taking a firm stance. I wish the chairman had the power to veto votes. I didn't vote for neutrality, I voted for change. Individually I am sure you are all great people, however, what your alliance stands for has simply made me stand against everything that you stand for. Including all the tears and drivel you wish to spawn here.
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:53:00 - [373] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted. a.k.a: I will not make any attempt to go above and beyond any formal requirements I have, and will do the absolute minimum I must to meet the CSM requirements, which is the only forum I have any power in. I will not make any attempt to discuss matters called by the chair outside of these official forums. I want to change EVE in a manner I want, and I don't really care about the larger group. Personally Darius, I think you and any Goonie representative as chair would not make an "inclusive" CSM. Jade has clearly indicated her stance, her beliefs, and it didn't include neutrality. Use your vote, good luck.
Vio Geraci GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:54:00 - [374] Originally by: Jade Constantine As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that. Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems.
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:54:00 - [375] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Idaeus I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements. As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that. You're not just an Eve player any more Jade. You're chairman of the CSM. Why not drop the obviously childish ****.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 15:59:00 - [376] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/05/2008 16:00:03 Originally by: Dingi223 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted. a.k.a: I will not make any attempt to go above and beyond any formal requirements I have, and will do the absolute minimum I must to meet the CSM requirements, which is the only forum I have any power in. I will not make any attempt to discuss matters called by the chair outside of these official forums. I want to change EVE in a manner I want, and I don't really care about the larger group. Personally Darius, I think you and any Goonie representative as chair would not make an "inclusive" CSM. Jade has clearly indicated her stance, her beliefs, and it didn't include neutrality. Use your vote, good luck. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I said I wouldn't attend the Chair's shadow meeting of no consequence (of which I was not in any way that I can determine notified. Interestingly enough there has been no formal communication or notification medium defined). Official meetings, the forum, talking to other players, that is all within the role of the CSM. Instead of attempting to redefine the CSM, perhaps we could get to work doing what we were tasked to? I'll also note that it is Jade, not myself who has chosen to not include ANY portion of the playerbase. I've actually been quite open, and have shown myself as quite open to ANYONE'S suggestions. Now you're welcome to come to your own conclusions and I respect your opinions, but redefining the CSM isn't the CSM's responsibility. Attempting to define me is clearly going to require more research on your part.
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:01:00 - [377] Originally by: Vio Geraci Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems. Are you implying that the UK political system is less democratic than the US electoral college, invalidating votes in states, where you can become president even after losing the popular vote? The same country that Darius is from, who clearly, must be MUCH more experienced in "democratic political systems"? What drivel is this?
Gorobom	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:01:00 - [378] Edited by: Gorobom on 22/05/2008 16:03:44 Originally by: Dingi223 Voting was done by the players, you got dealt a hand, and if things don't work out, the players will realise and the CSM voting process will change next time. While this is reasonably true, not everyone is willing to wait for months of terrible gameplay decisions happy. GS still represents around 1/5 of the CSM though. Also players usually don't really know how to make good decisions because they're short-sighted, as this whole election has clearly proved. I'm happy that in the end of the day the real decisions will be made by the professionals with a greater insight of what works and what doesn't. Quote: Personally I applaude Jade for taking a firm stance. I wish the chairman had the power to veto votes. I didn't vote for neutrality, I voted for change. You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now.
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:02:00 - [379] ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons. Darius, stop being a child.
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:04:00 - [380] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Instead of attempting to redefine the CSM, perhaps we could get to work doing what we were tasked to? I agree. However, I see a huge number of GoonSwarm members trolling this thread complaining, and trying to throw Jade from chair. Why don't you simply just get on with the work you were tasked to do? Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'll also note that it is Jade, not myself who has chosen to not include ANY portion of the playerbase. I've actually been quite open, and have shown myself as quite open to ANYONE'S suggestions. Now you're welcome to come to your own conclusions and I respect your opinions, but redefining the CSM isn't the CSM's responsibility. Attempting to define me is clearly going to require more research on your part. If this were true, Jade would not have gotten the majority of the vote. Clearly a lot of people felt that Jade DOES include their portion of the playerbase. In fact, more people felt that Jade represented them than you. Unfortunately you can believe what you wish, state what you wish, but the votes show otherwise. Now why don't you move along and get to the work you were tasked to do.
Claire Lacombe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [381] Originally by: Zeoliter ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons. Darius, stop being a child. ITT a BoB member uses in game politics to make a flame post about nothing of consequence in order to try and discredit a goon who has been nothing but open on every issue and question he's been asked since he started running for a position in the CSM.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [382] Originally by: Zeoliter ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons. Darius, stop being a child. The voting's over. I don't have to pretend anything anymore. Perhaps you'll have to accept that I'm honestly interested in seeing the process work the way it's supposed to and legitimately care about Eve and the population's opinions? As far as the being a child bit, well that's simply laughable given the context and content of my responses.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [383] Originally by: Vio Geraci Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems. You have all the representation you could need. If you have issues you are quite free to write a decent constructive post on the Assembly Hall Forum and there the Eve community will have the opportunity to discuss the matter properly and CSM reps may involve themselves or even decide to support the issue and raise it to formal CSM vote for the agenda. Thats your option now really. But don't expect me to substantively answer any more issues on my candidacy in the Inaugural CSM session since those matters are past. And just like any other Eve player I'll maintain my rights to ignore you and your concerns if I consider they are rudely expressed and nonconstructive in this forum. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:06:00 - [384] Originally by: Gorobom You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now. They why didn't they? If they wanted the chair so much, and feel that Jade makes such an undeserving chair, why didn't they seek to secure this position themselves? Next time you can obviously rectify this.
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:13:00 - [385] Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:13:44 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Point of clarification: Jade did not get the majority of the votes. Jade got the most votes of an individual. No one person achieved the majority of the votes. I don't control goons. They are free to post whatever, wherever and however they like. I was responding to what I perceived as an attempt to change the rules. I don't see how that's beyond my scope of responsibility. Especially given that I was threatened with disenfranchisement by someone who is clearly without the authority to do so. Well, I look forward to the issues and points that goons wish to post in the Assembly Hall, and I will be interested in your points of view and statements. Unfortunately, your alliance and corp mates damage any credibility that you wish to establish to a large portion of the EVE player base. And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.
Gorobom	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:14:00 - [386] Originally by: Dingi223 Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:07:30 Originally by: Gorobom You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now. Then why didn't they? If they wanted the chair so much, and feel that Jade makes such an undeserving chair, why didn't they seek to secure this position themselves? Next time you can obviously rectify this. My own post answered that, using a bit of logic and common sense.
Dingi223	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [387] Originally by: Gorobom My own post answered that, using a bit of logic and common sense. Then that same logic and common sense clearly shows why your statement about combining the votes is false. Why make a statement, then use your own common logic and sense to discredit it?
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [388] The word is plurality. The first order of business for the CSM is electing these vacant positions within 3 days. If the Council is to elect their own Chairperson they need to first change the official system by which the Chair is selected - which would be the second order of business. It's not hard to understand.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:18:00 - [389] Originally by: Dingi223 Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:13:44 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Point of clarification: Jade did not get the majority of the votes. Jade got the most votes of an individual. No one person achieved the majority of the votes. I don't control goons. They are free to post whatever, wherever and however they like. I was responding to what I perceived as an attempt to change the rules. I don't see how that's beyond my scope of responsibility. Especially given that I was threatened with disenfranchisement by someone who is clearly without the authority to do so. Well, I look forward to the issues and points that goons wish to post in the Assembly Hall, and I will be interested in your points of view and statements. Unfortunately, your alliance and corp mates damage any credibility that you wish to establish to a large portion of the EVE player base. And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates. That's your opinion. Goons have been Goons for a long time and will be for a long time after. We seem to get by quite fine. I would posit that the establishment off credibility is relative and perhaps there's an alternative viewpoint to the one you're offering. Shoes on other feet et al.
Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.22 16:19:00 - [390] Congratulations Jade. The voting was done democratically. In this democratic election, Goonswarm managed to get two seats out of the nine, but a larger proportion of players expressed support for alternative ways of looking at the game mechanics. What this says to me is that while Goonswarm may consider themselves expert on all aspects of play (except, as noted above, 'carebears'), the rest of the player base don't hold the same opinion. Just because Goonswarm is the largest alliance does not make it representative of anyone's views other than those players who choose to be a member of it - and that is a tiny minority of EVE's actual player base. The elections have happened, and the result is not going to be changed. Those factions who have not been as successful as they hoped will have to rely on other tactics than 'blobbing' the CSM. Basically - go by the FIFO principle - "Fit in, or ... go away.". If you are so disillusioned by the results that you cannot work within the system, feel free to resign your position in the CSM and go back to whatever it is you do in game. Otherwise, use the opportunity to prove to the rest of the player base that you aren't the (insert derogatory noun here) that so many people clearly think you are, and be a useful member of the council. As in, promote your views, debate the issues, and vote on them. Every member of the council is entitled to prejudice, the Chair as much as anyone else - impartiality is not a requirement of the Chair in any committee I've ever seen. The players knew this when they cast their votes - hence all the discussion in the weeks leading up to the election - and we know it now when issues are raised. This is how democracy works - candidates are evaluated on the strength of their beliefs and principles and elected accordingly. I know the political principle of 'might makes right' is more prevalent than democracy in EVE, but the CSM is not an in-game tool, it's an out of game advisory committee for in-game issues. There is a difference.

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