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joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/05/2008 05:12:20 Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:19:37 Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:16:11 Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level. Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus. In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you. I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you goes through your armor in seconds, you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus. Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1. I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus by effecting remote reps. ( Edit - Or maybe armor hp bonus ) K thx. Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus. You should read teh whole thread before just posting. And btw i said useless in 90% of situations. Yes im sure there are videos with repper bonus being useful .. thats the 10%. Uber idea solves all !!
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Crawler actualy i find the rep-bonus a good addition im using a repair rig to so i got a rep of 1265hp/cycle instead of 800 also its pretty easy to elevate 2 resistances to 80% which is what i use for standard in a lvl 4 mission. basicly it gives a better tank then a abbadon if the enemy only have 2 damage types Im talking about pvp not pve. Uber idea solves all !!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus. No, its not actually. See the following explanation. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=15560 Vote Goumindong for CSM
hedfunk Caldari Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:05:00 - [34] Offiecr fitted Astarte. Epic win. And a slave set ofc :D
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Anubis Xian I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk. True, and how all the galante rep bonus ships are excellent, even when not using their rep bonus... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Eclip SUBLIME L.L.C.	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:51:00 - [36] Originally by: easei Edited by: easei on 01/05/2008 05:06:33 Originally by: Eclip I see a few problems with this. Your arguing that in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation reps are better. OK, I'll buy that. Now in a PvP situation where your gang of 6-10 is engaging their gang of 6-10 locals are a total waste of a slot, why, because theres a 99% chance they will have neuts. Even in the case you have an injector you're not going to be repping, and your guns won't be firing. Grats, basically your brick in space. The theory of remote rep gangs isn't necessarily to all out tank the DPS of a gang, but rather buy enough time for your gang to drop 1-2 of them before they kill the first one of you. In your scenario above you assume your gang's not going to be dealing out just as much hurt if not more to them. I wasnt saying locals are the only way to go i know buffer tanks are used to great effeciency i use them myself in larger then about 4 BS gangs. but i dont see the point in having 1 extra plate giving say 6k armor ish which makes you last 6-8 seconds longer assuming 50% resist whch is common on buffer taks. If ur neuted then ur buddies remote repping are neuted and you should have all been in massive buffer maelstroms or ravens with capless guns. Plus neuts arnt really that common in a RR gang after all ur 2 usualy utility slots are used for remote reps. Only ship that effetivly can fit neuts are domis or maybe a tempest. Domi's usually fit heavy nos and medium neuts usually since the RR eat so much of their cap even with a heavy cap injector they need it when fitting 2 RReps. This kind of theorycrafting where you use specific examples such as neuts etc to destabilize tanks etc i left it out for simplistic reasons as eve is a game of much scope and variables which can change during the course of each individual fight. Hell each BS could fit a tracking disruptor and turn 2k incoming dps to say 500ish, or get a rook/falcon/blackbird to warp in at 100 and compleatly shutdown the abaddons. but i didnt i was comparing buffer tanks to buffer with rep tanks and rep tanks. The smaller your gang the more important personal reppers are as you expand in size it changes to buffer tanks with a single rep to full passive for larger gangs. The larger your gang the more attention you will attract and the more of a blob you will face. passive tanks promote blobbing due to the excess in ships needed to break down these tanks in a decent amout of time. I do understand the RR philosphy but having 6-10 gank BS's shooting at you is gonna be short lived if ur not already bunched together. ie the campers have the advantage over the ppl jumping in always as ur in range of each other and they are not. Im just not a fan of the people that say fit for passive tanks only, There is use for the rep bonus just not in massive gangs. if you have some jamers on hand for instance and ur getting mashed. some jams occur and ur rep bonus becomes very effective as you can get alot more hp back then if you didnt have it for when they can lock and shoot at you again ur full armor instead of still half armor. Its all about tactics and sticking to the tactic and haivng the ppl that can do it effectivly will win everytime. There wil always be the 2 caps of ppl that see value in certain tactics and others that will be in the "fit big passive tanks with lots of damage and we will win" camp. eath to their own personally. I dont fly gallente and am starting to trian em up now just for the rep bonus. Amarr are good big passive tankers due to resistance. gallente are great split buffer tanks with a rep on certain ships and minmater are just a rep race really coz they dont ft effective passive tanks. ships have bonuses for a reason and become effective when used in the way they were designed. Sorry for the long post just bored at work hehe
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.02 06:13:00 - [37] Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.02 08:11:00 - [38] yep not much usefull expecially compared to +resists imo it should be applied to incoming repair too to have some use even in gangs +hp good too, but fear it can be op with minnie ships... not that i will not like it
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.05.04 10:44:00 - [39] It seems I got ignored, perhaps simple easy logic doesn't suit you guys but as I said before, someone had a thread on this only a couple of weeks ago and proved with math that the repair bonus isn't bad, it just needs to be increased a little, There is a window of received dps that the repair bonuses are better than the resist bonuses, at this point in time however, the window is far too small and to increase the usefulness the bonuses need to be increased. Anyway if you want to read the previous and more useful/informative thread on the subject, go here... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=724871
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.04 10:51:00 - [40] Don 't knwo why people say bonut to remote rep woudl be too powerfull. The resit bonus is same as a self repair bonus + remote rep bonus ( for example if 2 of same ships are remote reppign each other) and a buffer HP bonus. If there is soemthgin really unbalanced on this game is the repair/shidl boost bonus vs the resit bonuses
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:01:00 - [41] yep yep know about the small window, the comparsion was posted sometimes on the boards but imo main problem of +boost is not a bit less efficency in "solo rep" but the fact that +boost is useless in too many situations while +res is always good... in fact +res is ectremely usefull not just when you are alone with an active tank but even for passive/buffer tank (good in fleets and gank) and with logistic support as you get more ehps per incoming heal compared to a ship whitout this bonus. is clear that +boost cant keep up with that and imo the changes should be done to make the +boost a viable bonus even in gangs engagements, now for sure it can't be turned into a +buffer bonus, but at least it can be changed so that it mod the incoming heals making it worth even in "non solo engagements" and close a bit the gap between these 2 bonuses
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything. that is why I fly Amarr BS taht can reach stuff 50 km far without moving :P
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything. that is why I fly Amarr BS taht can reach stuff 50 km far without moving :P Yeah exactly and amarr bs get resistance bonus and plate tank even better :S. And btw i used to fly a triple plated domi it was my anti nano ship and it done well (duel neuts + few smartbombs ftw).
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay Quoted, signed and I think I'm going to have to say I love you. Only recon without a dam drone bay. Also... I want this 7.5% armor HP per lvl you speak of, that'd be omg ganktastic
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.04 11:47:00 - [45] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay Quoted, signed and I think I'm going to have to say I love you. Only recon without a dam drone bay. Also... I want this 7.5% armor HP per lvl you speak of, that'd be omg ganktastic To damn right .. it would give gallente the ability to gank the target before it gets ganked !! rar
Jill Antaris Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.04 12:16:00 - [46] Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.04 12:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1. And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o
Jill Antaris Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.04 12:46:00 - [48] Edited by: Jill Antaris on 04/05/2008 12:52:47 Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1. And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o Well it was vs 2 Gank fitted BS, not yust 2 random Ships. Also a rigged Hype can tank even 2k DPS for a while, since it gets back about 1/3 of its Armor in less that 10 Seconds(that would be close to 3k depends on the Rigging and the Repps). Counting in the 10k Armor Buffer this would give a timeframe of over 60 Seconds to take down one Abaddon or kill the Drones to reduce DPS. And what is better(same resists asumed) 20k Armor vs 2k DPS or 10k Armor vs 1k DPS? Please don¦t tell anyone you fly a Gallente BS and you are not able to find a solution to CPU issues. That yust don¦t look right.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.04 12:59:00 - [49] Edited by: joshmorris on 04/05/2008 13:01:48 Originally by: Jill Antaris Edited by: Jill Antaris on 04/05/2008 12:52:47 Originally by: joshmorris Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1. And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o Well it was vs 2 Gank fitted BS, not yust 2 random Ships. Also a rigged Hype can tank even 2k DPS for a while, since it gets back about 1/3 of its Armor in less that 10 Seconds(that would be close to 3k depends on the Rigging and the Repps). Counting in the 10k Armor Buffer this would give a timeframe of over 60 Seconds to take down one Abaddon or kill the Drones to reduce DPS. And what is better(same resists asumed) 20k Armor vs 2k DPS or 10k Armor vs 1k DPS? Please don¦t tell anyone you fly a Gallente BS and you are not able to find a solution to CPU issues. That yust don¦t look right. Well either way dude i would of been better of in a plate tanked / gank abaddon and i would of lasted alot longer until my friends arive which is where my reason for the whole post is. Because there are ships out there that can do so much dps in such a short amount of time you are better of plate tanking in 90% of situations. Your just using theory craft i have seen this in action .. tried different ships and just came to the conclusion that if im ending up plate tanking a hyperion and ignoring the bonus (because it works so much better in anything appart from 1v1) theres something wrong. Edit - and 2k dps ... right 10k armor hp isnt enough buffer to tank 2k dps. In 10 seconds 2k dps takes erm .. 20k armor hense why i was in structure in a matter of seconds before my friends could undock and put rr on me.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:11:00 - [50] Originally by: Dristra Originally by: Anubis Xian I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk. True, and how all the galante rep bonus ships are excellent, even when not using their rep bonus... That is an odd point of logic there. My Raven gets a bonus to missile range but that only comes into play when I'm shooting missiles. My Drake gets a bonus to resists but that only means something when I'm getting shot. It seems that MAYBE bonuses are designed to help define the role of a ship beyond that of the slot layout and fitting requirements. And in spite of all the whining that happens in Eve about the difference between PVP and PVE and how one tactic works wonderfully in one place but not another I will point out the simple truth: most people in Eve spend most of their time partaking in the PVE aspect. Lets just keep that in mind when it comes to the complaining about the bonus of a particular ship would we?
Jill Antaris Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:32:00 - [51] Originally by: joshmorris /stuff 1. Skill for a Abaddon, if you can¦t see that Ships have diffrent rolles, strength and Drawbacks, It is a nice Ship, no doubt about this. 2. Again, for buffertanking Mega is the better Ship. 3. I tryed over 2 years with about 36 M SP fully spect on Gallente on a other Char(that is currently out of Eve for Large Blaster Spec 5). So yeah I preaty mutch teocrafting all the way. 4. Gallente Tank Armor & Structure(at least at the BS Level all the time), also 10k Armor and 10k Structure got some resistances(especialy vs Lasers). Plate up a Mega, it is far better Plated as the Hype because of the extra low and the ability to fit a Neut or remote Rep. Edit. Armor Platings, Implants and Named/Faction Items are there for a Reason if you still have fitting Issues.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:39:00 - [52] Originally by: Jill Antaris Originally by: joshmorris /stuff 1. Skill for a Abaddon, if you can¦t see that Ships have diffrent rolles, strength and Drawbacks, It is a nice Ship, no doubt about this. 2. Again, for buffertanking Mega is the better Ship. 3. I tryed over 2 years with about 36 M SP fully spect on Gallente on a other Char(that is currently out of Eve for Large Blaster Spec 5). So yeah I preaty mutch teocrafting all the way. 4. Gallente Tank Armor & Structure(at least at the BS Level all the time), also 10k Armor and 10k Structure got some resistances(especialy vs Lasers). Plate up a Mega, it is far better Plated as the Hype because of the extra low and the ability to fit a Neut or remote Rep. Edit. Armor Platings, Implants and Named/Faction Items are there for a Reason if you still have fitting Issues. I dont need help fitting my ships that not what the thread is about. I already tried all the things you have stated cause im not a moron. If you read the thread and you will agree ... repper bonus is useless in 90% of situations yes or no !
Jill Antaris Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.04 13:53:00 - [53] Originally by: joshmorris If you read the thread and you will agree ... repper bonus is useless in 90% of situations yes or no ! I readed the Thread before I posted in the first place, since this is my common Forum use style. And I disagree, the Rep Bonus is not useless 90% of the time. I agree it is against 2 well skilled gank fitted Ships of the same class, but not in general.
s6dur	Posted - 2008.05.04 15:57:00 - [54] Hyperion full tank survives longer time, than plated setup when incoming dps is less than 1500 dps (1700 dps, if you overload reppers, and don't overload plated hyperion hardeners) So yes, you would have survived longer against 2 abaddons with plated setup, but ... Quote: You should read teh whole thread before just posting. And btw i said useless in 90% of situations. Yes im sure there are videos with repper bonus being useful .. thats the 10%. I just admire how you know exactly that 90% of time you get more damage than 1500 dps and so plated setup would be inferior :D. So please don't throw numbers, I am sure we, ordinary players, don't know exactly how many time people have encountered fights, where incoming dps favours tank, and how many fights, where incoming dps favours plate. And remember, we are talking about pvp only :).
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.04 16:26:00 - [55] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Bellum Eternus Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus. No, its not actually. See the following explanation. http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=15560 Actually in Bellum's case it is. By my rough math it takes four rep cycles from the LAR on his Hyperion in "L E G E N D A R Y" to equal one 1600mm RT plate. Maybe five depending on how crazy he went on the tri-marks. Strait raw math does not always equal what plays out ingame.
Xonkra Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.04 21:28:00 - [56] WHAT!? not all ships in eve are the same !? Say it aint so !
Durethia Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 23:58:00 - [57] I like the repair bonus, but honestly, in my experience it doesn't seem to make a difference on some ships. Battleships like the Kronos and the Hyperion with a 7.5% rep bonus, and providing you have lvl 5s, does provide a clear advantage. But, a 7.5 percent advantage on a starting figure of 800 (Large Armor Repairer II) will result in more gain than a 7.5% bonus from 320 (Medium Armor Repairer II). While it's true, the ratios will be the same, the significance of result is not the same. This is similar to having 10,000,000 USD in the bank generating enough interest to live off of, versus 10,000 USD whose interest is every bit negligable and won't even be noticed--the same interest rate, "It takes money, to make money". So the ships that do not benefit as much from a 7.5% bonus to rep amount are the smaller ships with smaller armor repairers like some of the Battlecruisers, T1 and T2. For the battlecruisers, I think the rep bonus should be 8.5.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.05 01:17:00 - [58] Originally by: pandymen Sorry, but no. Where is the logic in that? Because a particular bonus is not optimized perfectly for pvp, the ship must change? Quite simple. Ship is good at PVE, but bad at PVP because its low slots are pidgeon-holed into reppers. Ship can be made arguably better at PVP (and inarguably more versatile) by un-pidgeon-holing it while keeping it equally effective in PVE. How is this a problem? You think the Gallente are overpowered? It's not Gallente bias, I don't even fly them. It's just sensibility- diversity for diversity's sake.

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