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joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.04.30 19:52:00 -
[1]
Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level.
Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus.
In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you.
I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you , you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus.
Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1.
I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus with remote reps.
K thx.
Uber idea solves all !! |

arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: arbalesttom on 30/04/2008 20:03:27 First
And yes please swap the 7.5% repair amount bonus for a 7.5-10% bonus to armor hp ***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |

Perfect Diamond
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:03:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18
No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship.
But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does)
By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones.
P.S. I hate you Arb Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race. |

BABARR
PARABELUM-Project
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:16:00 -
[4]
Bah, it's simply the usual question, why plated ship are more efficient in pvp than armor rep one. ...
"Si vis pacem, parabellum" |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18
No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship.
But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does)
By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones.
P.S. I hate you Arb
Huh im talking about hyperions / myrms in remote repping gangs in low sec not nanoness. ... i havnt said 1 thing about drones.
And btw logistics bonus is range / less cap use, i was just merely stating that what if the bonus for armor repair amount per level applied to all armor reps .. (remote too)so you can fit plates in the lows (which are much more useful than local reps) But still make use of the rep bonus by fitting remote reps and helping your friends.
Uber idea solves all !! |

Verrain Ravenlark
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:28:00 -
[6]
Thats great for PvP, but is poor for PvE where often sustained tank is superior to buffer.
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Bronson Hughes
The KAOS Holdings Group
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 30/04/2008 20:32:29 The repair amount bonus is geared more towards PvE than PvP. For sustained tanking, it's more efficient than a 5% resist per level bonus. It's generally considered to be far less useful for PvP though.
A bonus to armor HP for Gallente ships instead of repair amount would be very nice for PvP, but I doubt it will ever happen as long as certain Minmatar ships keep their shield boost amount bonuses. A bonus to remote reps will never happen for non-logistics ships; that would just be too powerful for PvP.
EDIT: As a subsitiute for the armor repair amount on the Brutix, the Hyperion, and the Astarte, I'd take a Thorax-esque MWD cap-penalty reduction in a heartbeat, but that would probably be wholly overpowered. Leave the tanking bonus on the Myrmidon and the Eos. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |

Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18
No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship.
But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does)
By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones.
P.S. I hate you Arb
WTB Falcon with drone bay
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:35:00 -
[9]
true maybe it can be usefull in pve, but not so much in pvp
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.04.30 20:49:00 -
[10]
I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 30/04/2008 20:32:29 The repair amount bonus is geared more towards PvE than PvP. For sustained tanking, it's more efficient than a 5% resist per level bonus. It's generally considered to be far less useful for PvP though.
A bonus to armor HP for Gallente ships instead of repair amount would be very nice for PvP, but I doubt it will ever happen as long as certain Minmatar ships keep their shield boost amount bonuses. A bonus to remote reps will never happen for non-logistics ships; that would just be too powerful for PvP.
Bah mostly true appart from the minmatar bit.
Armor repairing is slower to repair incoming dps and more cap efficient.
Shield boosting is much more viable in pvp because it gives Alot of hp in a matter of seconds, its just alot less cap efficient, therefore the rep bonus for shields actually works alot better as you can hold of the incoming dps but just not for long.
With armor tanking you maybe get 1 or 2 cycles in before you go pop (without a buffer that is)
Uber idea solves all !! |

Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay
Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^
-Liang --
Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
|

FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:03:00 -
[13]
As others have said, it is a good PvE bonus, but rarely matters in most PvP. Personally, I like it a lot for PvE, so I'm happy with it, even if it "wastes" a bonus in a lot of PvP situations.
Now, in your fight with 2 Abaddons, I don't thank an armor HP bonus would have done you any good anyway. They still would have eaten you alive. For this reason, I find any tanking bonus is "wasted" in PvP and fit all my PvP ships for a lot more damage than tank. ------------
Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |

arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 21:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Perfect Diamond P.S. I hate you Arb
 ***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^ |

CptEagle
Gallente Genius Inc.
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:37:00 -
[15]
The Paladin should have a resistance bonus as well, the current repair bonus makes no sense at all. 
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Zubakis
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:41:00 -
[16]
Earlier i thought it too, that this bonus is weak for pvp. But then i realised that u can still make a good use out of this bonus.
I take Hyperion as example. Now look at this two setups:
BufferPlateHyperion: 2x1600rt,2xeanm,1xdc,3xtrimarks BufferLARHyperion: 1xLAR,1x1600rt,2xeanm,1xdc,3xtrimarks (tanks ~300dps)
If you do the math you will see that this one LAR will nearly be equal to the plate. If incoming dps is very high, the LAR setup will die only some seconds earlier.
But there are still some benefits: -You tank a good amount of dps on your own and use your own cap. -You can still repair yourself a little bit even when your logistic ships are disabled (ecm,damp). -With faction reps and overloading, you can furthermore improve your tank.
In the end i agree the bonus is a little bit weak and this kind of a tank is very hard to realise on bc's and cs's.
-- Zuba |

thisismyalt
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Posted - 2008.04.30 21:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay
Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^
-Liang
Yo CCP, check out the all new CNF !!!
|

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.04.30 22:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 30/04/2008 22:22:15
Originally by: thisismyalt
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay
Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^
-Liang
Yo CCP, check out the all new CNF !!!
/me drools.
Anyway. Back on topic.
As far as I'm concerned, there are some bonuses which are good, and some which are 'ok'. The good bonuses are things like damage, resists, speed. They make a really significant difference to the primary operation of the ship.
Then there's the 'ok' bonuses. These are things like missile flight time, or ship agility, or 'more dronebay'. They're nice, and add a bit to the ship, but don't overly define it.
An armour rep bonus is essentially worse than a resistances bonus. Whilst on paper, it gives more tank, this boost is only applicable when the tank is running, and relies on using an active repair unit. (Or booster, for the shield boost bonuses).
Now, there's a whole lot of reasons that's bad - in PvP, up to the 'tank threshold' of the repair tank keeping up, it's better. But once this threshold is exceeded, it rapidly gets less effective - as the DPS increases, their life expectancy (and thus repair cycles) become defined by the number of effective hitpoints they have.
A resistance boost, gives increases effective hitpoints, and increased effective repair efficiency. It's therefore useful to active, passive and buffer tanks.
A repair amount bonus is only valid when the repper is running, and therefore only really applies to active tanking.
So yes, it's worse. But... well, some ships get good bonuses, some not so much. The bonuses alone don't actually define how good the ship is.
*shrug*. There's no easy fix really. A repair efficiency bonus is good for PvE. IF it got to the amount where it'd be good for PvP, then it'd be sick and wrong in PvE.
But ... well, do you feel the ships with repair amount bonuses are underpowered for some reason? It might be fun to have remote rep amount in there too. I don't think that'd actually be all that much a problem - remote rep gangs have other limitations. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.04.30 22:27:00 -
[19]
Originally by: FT Diomedes As others have said, it is a good PvE bonus, but rarely matters in most PvP. Personally, I like it a lot for PvE, so I'm happy with it, even if it "wastes" a bonus in a lot of PvP situations.
Now, in your fight with 2 Abaddons, I don't thank an armor HP bonus would have done you any good anyway. They still would have eaten you alive. For this reason, I find any tanking bonus is "wasted" in PvP and fit all my PvP ships for a lot more damage than tank.
Well no tbh m8 i survived the fight with 378 structure left as my friends managed to rr me back up ... the fact that i was relying on my own ships bonus not buffer nearly got me killed.
Uber idea solves all !! |

Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.05.01 01:23:00 -
[20]
There was an interesting thread about repair bonuses v's resist bonuses not so long ago, the math was quite convincing, basically what it proved was that to truly be a good niche, Repair bonuses need to be increased to closer to 10%/lvl to be effective in pvp. Bear in mind that the repair bonus has a small window of greater effectiveness vs resists, the window is very small however and in most cases resists are better.
If I could find the link I would. CCP Fix the damned search function.
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Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.05.01 01:39:00 -
[21]
Repping amount bonus favors repping only.
HP amount favors buffer tanking only.
Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now.
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Mr Reeth
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.05.01 01:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vitrael Repping amount bonus favors repping only.
HP amount favors buffer tanking only.
Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now.
Yes, lets give the Gallente ships the same type of bonus that Amarr ships get. Let's make all the ships function the same way.  |

Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.01 01:58:00 -
[23]
resistance and armor hp bonus are amarrian. bonus to remote repping well that could be interesting. thats a idea one could pursue a little.
i see the problems with active tanking and as such the discussion isn't unwarranted. but blurring the racial differences to help this problem will produce others and generally speaking "dumb down" the game.
why should a hyperion for example tank as good buffewise as an abaddon and on the other hand also excel in active tanking? now you can argue abaddon can mount a decent active tank too and thats true. but it won't should lasers at the same time.
amarr aren't versatile at all and that should be rewarded with being better than others at their niches.
furthermore its not like gallente ships do not perform in pvp. as said by others its not only important how good/bad a certain bonus is but how the ships perfom as a whole. and i am not convinced the "useless" bonus induces any kind of balance problem. of course you can always make ships better from a design point of view but that doesn't say its needed.
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easei
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.05.01 02:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vitrael
HP amount favors buffer tanking only.
That's a flawed statement due to the nature of all armor tanks. Yes it has a greater effect if you passively tank it, but it still benefits active tanks.
IMO the Hyperion at least needs a rework of it's rep bonus. The only reason to fly one(PvP) is because you want to fit neutron's and a sensor booster or ECCM, while avoiding the fitting issues with the Megathron.
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Havohej
Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.05.01 02:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18
No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship.
But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does)
By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones.
P.S. I hate you Arb
Not arguing with you, but I'd like to point out that the Gallente have a T1 cruiser with remote repper bonuses as well, as a low-SP, low-cost alternative to the actual Logistics cruiser.
Just like how the Osprey has remote shield repper bonuses, The Exequror has remote armor repper bonuses.
Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
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pandymen
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.05.01 02:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vitrael
Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now.
Sorry, but no. Where is the logic in that? Because a particular bonus is not optimized perfectly for pvp, the ship must change?
No, gallente are already plenty powerful as they are. They do not need even better bonuses on their already good ships. You don't change a ships bonus just for the sake of making it better for pvp...unfortunately, things like balance come into play. There are plenty of other ships that have not exactly optimal bonuses like most caldari ships with missile flight time bonuses or amarr cruisers with tanking bonuses.
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Eclip
SUBLIME L.L.C.
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Posted - 2008.05.01 02:43:00 -
[27]
There is a balance. Ive seen 3-4 intys kill a plated megathron. I bet that guy wished he had a rep on. The need and push for plated setups with hp buffers is due to the way ppl like to blob to ensure victory more then the ships inefficiencys to repair incomign damage.
Example 2 abaddons. lest say 2k dps for example. hyperion tank with fit dual reps around 1k dps so all he needed was like 2 remote reps on to tank it was like 5-6 remote reps on him. Sure he would only have about 15s for his mates to get reps on him b4 he hit armor but 5-6 remote reps is easy to field and 5s for reps on is about the time in my experiece form RR gang that are used to RR ganging. SO survives with 3 mates remote repping him while they rip 2 abaddons
Lets flip the coin, big passive tank now avg resist is like 60-65ish % for simplicity say 120k hit points roughly 80k on armor that gives 40s b4 the abaddons have him through armor. Now we need 14 remote reps to keep the 1 ship alive (tanking the dps indefinatly till out of cap) just cos its got a hit point buffer.
Now we have the problem of less ppl to tank it and shorter time to get the remotes on or we have the longer survival time and a large amount of remote reps needed to be put on. more remote reps = blobbing so instead of 3-4 ppl we now have 8-9 people to tank the 2 ships. Personal reps have a place in PVP you just got to have a better couple of ppl watching your back.
Each have their own uses. [/url] |

easei
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 05:06:00 -
[28]
Edited by: easei on 01/05/2008 05:06:33
Originally by: Eclip
Example 2 abaddons. lest say 2k dps for example. hyperion tank with fit dual reps around 1k dps so all he needed was like 2 remote reps on to tank it was like 5-6 remote reps on him. Sure he would only have about 15s for his mates to get reps on him b4 he hit armor but 5-6 remote reps is easy to field and 5s for reps on is about the time in my experiece form RR gang that are used to RR ganging. SO survives with 3 mates remote repping him while they rip 2 abaddons
Lets flip the coin, big passive tank now avg resist is like 60-65ish % for simplicity say 120k hit points roughly 80k on armor that gives 40s b4 the abaddons have him through armor. Now we need 14 remote reps to keep the 1 ship alive (tanking the dps indefinatly till out of cap) just cos its got a hit point buffer.
Now we have the problem of less ppl to tank it and shorter time to get the remotes on or we have the longer survival time and a large amount of remote reps needed to be put on. more remote reps = blobbing so instead of 3-4 ppl we now have 8-9 people to tank the 2 ships. Personal reps have a place in PVP you just got to have a better couple of ppl watching your back.
Each have their own uses.
I see a few problems with this. Your arguing that in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation reps are better. OK, I'll buy that. Now in a PvP situation where your gang of 6-10 is engaging their gang of 6-10 locals are a total waste of a slot, why, because theres a 99% chance they will have neuts. Even in the case you have an injector you're not going to be repping, and your guns won't be firing. Grats, basically your brick in space.
The theory of remote rep gangs isn't necessarily to all out tank the DPS of a gang, but rather buy enough time for your gang to drop 1-2 of them before they kill the first one of you. In your scenario above you assume your gang's not going to be dealing out just as much hurt if not more to them.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.05.01 05:09:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/05/2008 05:12:20
Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:19:37 Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:16:11 Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level.
Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus.
In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you.
I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you goes through your armor in seconds, you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus.
Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1.
I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus by effecting remote reps. ( Edit - Or maybe armor hp bonus )
K thx.
Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. 
If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus. Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |

Crawler
Gallente Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.05.01 07:03:00 -
[30]
actualy i find the rep-bonus a good addition im using a repair rig to so i got a rep of 1265hp/cycle instead of 800 also its pretty easy to elevate 2 resistances to 80% which is what i use for standard in a lvl 4 mission. basicly it gives a better tank then a abbadon if the enemy only have 2 damage types _____________________________________________ yawnnnnn |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 07:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/05/2008 05:12:20
Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:19:37 Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:16:11 Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level.
Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus.
In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you.
I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you goes through your armor in seconds, you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus.
Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1.
I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus by effecting remote reps. ( Edit - Or maybe armor hp bonus )
K thx.
Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. 
If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus.
You should read teh whole thread before just posting.
And btw i said useless in 90% of situations. Yes im sure there are videos with repper bonus being useful .. thats the 10%.
Uber idea solves all !! |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 07:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Crawler actualy i find the rep-bonus a good addition im using a repair rig to so i got a rep of 1265hp/cycle instead of 800 also its pretty easy to elevate 2 resistances to 80% which is what i use for standard in a lvl 4 mission. basicly it gives a better tank then a abbadon if the enemy only have 2 damage types
Im talking about pvp not pve.
Uber idea solves all !! |

Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.05.01 07:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. 
If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus.
No, its not actually.
See the following explanation.
http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=15560
Vote Goumindong for CSM |

hedfunk
Caldari Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.05.01 11:05:00 -
[34]
Offiecr fitted Astarte. Epic win. And a slave set ofc :D
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.05.01 12:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Anubis Xian I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk.
True, and how all the galante rep bonus ships are excellent, even when not using their rep bonus... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |

Eclip
SUBLIME L.L.C.
|
Posted - 2008.05.02 05:51:00 -
[36]
Originally by: easei Edited by: easei on 01/05/2008 05:06:33
Originally by: Eclip
I see a few problems with this. Your arguing that in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation reps are better. OK, I'll buy that. Now in a PvP situation where your gang of 6-10 is engaging their gang of 6-10 locals are a total waste of a slot, why, because theres a 99% chance they will have neuts. Even in the case you have an injector you're not going to be repping, and your guns won't be firing. Grats, basically your brick in space.
The theory of remote rep gangs isn't necessarily to all out tank the DPS of a gang, but rather buy enough time for your gang to drop 1-2 of them before they kill the first one of you. In your scenario above you assume your gang's not going to be dealing out just as much hurt if not more to them.
I wasnt saying locals are the only way to go i know buffer tanks are used to great effeciency i use them myself in larger then about 4 BS gangs. but i dont see the point in having 1 extra plate giving say 6k armor ish which makes you last 6-8 seconds longer assuming 50% resist whch is common on buffer taks. If ur neuted then ur buddies remote repping are neuted and you should have all been in massive buffer maelstroms or ravens with capless guns. Plus neuts arnt really that common in a RR gang after all ur 2 usualy utility slots are used for remote reps.
Only ship that effetivly can fit neuts are domis or maybe a tempest. Domi's usually fit heavy nos and medium neuts usually since the RR eat so much of their cap even with a heavy cap injector they need it when fitting 2 RReps.
This kind of theorycrafting where you use specific examples such as neuts etc to destabilize tanks etc i left it out for simplistic reasons as eve is a game of much scope and variables which can change during the course of each individual fight. Hell each BS could fit a tracking disruptor and turn 2k incoming dps to say 500ish, or get a rook/falcon/blackbird to warp in at 100 and compleatly shutdown the abaddons. but i didnt i was comparing buffer tanks to buffer with rep tanks and rep tanks.
The smaller your gang the more important personal reppers are as you expand in size it changes to buffer tanks with a single rep to full passive for larger gangs. The larger your gang the more attention you will attract and the more of a blob you will face. passive tanks promote blobbing due to the excess in ships needed to break down these tanks in a decent amout of time.
I do understand the RR philosphy but having 6-10 gank BS's shooting at you is gonna be short lived if ur not already bunched together. ie the campers have the advantage over the ppl jumping in always as ur in range of each other and they are not.
Im just not a fan of the people that say fit for passive tanks only, There is use for the rep bonus just not in massive gangs. if you have some jamers on hand for instance and ur getting mashed. some jams occur and ur rep bonus becomes very effective as you can get alot more hp back then if you didnt have it for when they can lock and shoot at you again ur full armor instead of still half armor. Its all about tactics and sticking to the tactic and haivng the ppl that can do it effectivly will win everytime.
There wil always be the 2 caps of ppl that see value in certain tactics and others that will be in the "fit big passive tanks with lots of damage and we will win" camp. eath to their own personally. I dont fly gallente and am starting to trian em up now just for the rep bonus.
Amarr are good big passive tankers due to resistance. gallente are great split buffer tanks with a rep on certain ships and minmater are just a rep race really coz they dont ft effective passive tanks. ships have bonuses for a reason and become effective when used in the way they were designed.
Sorry for the long post just bored at work hehe |

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.05.02 06:13:00 -
[37]
Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything. |

Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2008.05.02 08:11:00 -
[38]
yep not much usefull expecially compared to +resists
imo it should be applied to incoming repair too to have some use even in gangs
+hp good too, but fear it can be op with minnie ships... not that i will not like it  |

Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 10:44:00 -
[39]
It seems I got ignored, perhaps simple easy logic doesn't suit you guys but as I said before, someone had a thread on this only a couple of weeks ago and proved with math that the repair bonus isn't bad, it just needs to be increased a little, There is a window of received dps that the repair bonuses are better than the resist bonuses, at this point in time however, the window is far too small and to increase the usefulness the bonuses need to be increased.
Anyway if you want to read the previous and more useful/informative thread on the subject, go here... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=724871 |

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 10:51:00 -
[40]
Don 't knwo why people say bonut to remote rep woudl be too powerfull. The resit bonus is same as a self repair bonus + remote rep bonus ( for example if 2 of same ships are remote reppign each other) and a buffer HP bonus.
If there is soemthgin really unbalanced on this game is the repair/shidl boost bonus vs the resit bonuses |

Ath Amon
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 11:01:00 -
[41]
yep yep know about the small window, the comparsion was posted sometimes on the boards but imo main problem of +boost is not a bit less efficency in "solo rep" but the fact that +boost is useless in too many situations while +res is always good...
in fact +res is ectremely usefull not just when you are alone with an active tank but even for passive/buffer tank (good in fleets and gank) and with logistic support as you get more ehps per incoming heal compared to a ship whitout this bonus.
is clear that +boost cant keep up with that and imo the changes should be done to make the +boost a viable bonus even in gangs engagements, now for sure it can't be turned into a +buffer bonus, but at least it can be changed so that it mod the incoming heals making it worth even in "non solo engagements" and close a bit the gap between these 2 bonuses |

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 11:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything.
that is why I fly Amarr BS taht can reach stuff 50 km far without moving :P |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 11:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you flown a double plated BS before? Do you know how slow you go? Very slow. Very easy to get ganked. Very hard to MWD and get on top of someone. That's a pretty big negative. Doesn't matter how long you last if you can't catch and hit anything.
that is why I fly Amarr BS taht can reach stuff 50 km far without moving :P
Yeah exactly and amarr bs get resistance bonus and plate tank even better :S.
And btw i used to fly a triple plated domi it was my anti nano ship and it done well (duel neuts + few smartbombs ftw). |

techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 11:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay
Quoted, signed and I think I'm going to have to say I love you. Only recon without a dam drone bay.
Also... I want this 7.5% armor HP per lvl you speak of, that'd be omg ganktastic  |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 11:47:00 -
[45]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay
Quoted, signed and I think I'm going to have to say I love you. Only recon without a dam drone bay.
Also... I want this 7.5% armor HP per lvl you speak of, that'd be omg ganktastic 
To damn right .. it would give gallente the ability to gank the target before it gets ganked !! rar |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 12:16:00 -
[46]
Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 
2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. 
|

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 12:33:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 
2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. 
Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1.
And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 12:46:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jill Antaris on 04/05/2008 12:52:47
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 
2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. 
Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1.
And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o
Well it was vs 2 Gank fitted BS, not yust 2 random Ships. Also a rigged Hype can tank even 2k DPS for a while, since it gets back about 1/3 of its Armor in less that 10 Seconds(that would be close to 3k depends on the Rigging and the Repps). Counting in the 10k Armor Buffer this would give a timeframe of over 60 Seconds to take down one Abaddon or kill the Drones to reduce DPS. 
And what is better(same resists asumed) 20k Armor vs 2k DPS or 10k Armor vs 1k DPS?
Please donŠt tell anyone you fly a Gallente BS and you are not able to find a solution to CPU issues. That yust donŠt look right.  |

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 12:59:00 -
[49]
Edited by: joshmorris on 04/05/2008 13:01:48
Originally by: Jill Antaris Edited by: Jill Antaris on 04/05/2008 12:52:47
Originally by: joshmorris
Originally by: Jill Antaris Mayby it would be to hard to yust use the Mega as a passive Tank for Gank and the Hype as a aktive for small Gang fights. 
2 Abaddons would have killed your Buffer Tank aswell without a doubt in a very short time. 
Well excuse me but does it get much smaller (appart from 1v1) .. 2v1.
And if i was in a buffer tanked ship with 20k + armor i wouldnt of even touched structure in the fitht. Fyi i did buy a mega after that but its so ghey on cpu i got rid of it 0.o
Well it was vs 2 Gank fitted BS, not yust 2 random Ships. Also a rigged Hype can tank even 2k DPS for a while, since it gets back about 1/3 of its Armor in less that 10 Seconds(that would be close to 3k depends on the Rigging and the Repps). Counting in the 10k Armor Buffer this would give a timeframe of over 60 Seconds to take down one Abaddon or kill the Drones to reduce DPS. 
And what is better(same resists asumed) 20k Armor vs 2k DPS or 10k Armor vs 1k DPS?
Please donŠt tell anyone you fly a Gallente BS and you are not able to find a solution to CPU issues. That yust donŠt look right. 
Well either way dude i would of been better of in a plate tanked / gank abaddon and i would of lasted alot longer until my friends arive which is where my reason for the whole post is.
Because there are ships out there that can do so much dps in such a short amount of time you are better of plate tanking in 90% of situations.
Your just using theory craft i have seen this in action .. tried different ships and just came to the conclusion that if im ending up plate tanking a hyperion and ignoring the bonus (because it works so much better in anything appart from 1v1) theres something wrong.
Edit - and 2k dps ... right 10k armor hp isnt enough buffer to tank 2k dps.
In 10 seconds 2k dps takes erm .. 20k armor hense why i was in structure in a matter of seconds before my friends could undock and put rr on me. |

Derek Sigres
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 13:11:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dristra
Originally by: Anubis Xian I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk.
True, and how all the galante rep bonus ships are excellent, even when not using their rep bonus...
That is an odd point of logic there.
My Raven gets a bonus to missile range but that only comes into play when I'm shooting missiles. My Drake gets a bonus to resists but that only means something when I'm getting shot.
It seems that MAYBE bonuses are designed to help define the role of a ship beyond that of the slot layout and fitting requirements.
And in spite of all the whining that happens in Eve about the difference between PVP and PVE and how one tactic works wonderfully in one place but not another I will point out the simple truth: most people in Eve spend most of their time partaking in the PVE aspect. Lets just keep that in mind when it comes to the complaining about the bonus of a particular ship would we? |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 13:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: joshmorris
/stuff
1. Skill for a Abaddon, if you canŠt see that Ships have diffrent rolles, strength and Drawbacks, It is a nice Ship, no doubt about this.
2. Again, for buffertanking Mega is the better Ship.
3. I tryed over 2 years with about 36 M SP fully spect on Gallente on a other Char(that is currently out of Eve for Large Blaster Spec 5). So yeah I preaty mutch teocrafting all the way. 
4. Gallente Tank Armor & Structure(at least at the BS Level all the time), also 10k Armor and 10k Structure got some resistances(especialy vs Lasers).
Plate up a Mega, it is far better Plated as the Hype because of the extra low and the ability to fit a Neut or remote Rep.
Edit. Armor Platings, Implants and Named/Faction Items are there for a Reason if you still have fitting Issues. 
|

joshmorris
AnTi. Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 13:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jill Antaris
Originally by: joshmorris
/stuff
1. Skill for a Abaddon, if you canŠt see that Ships have diffrent rolles, strength and Drawbacks, It is a nice Ship, no doubt about this.
2. Again, for buffertanking Mega is the better Ship.
3. I tryed over 2 years with about 36 M SP fully spect on Gallente on a other Char(that is currently out of Eve for Large Blaster Spec 5). So yeah I preaty mutch teocrafting all the way. 
4. Gallente Tank Armor & Structure(at least at the BS Level all the time), also 10k Armor and 10k Structure got some resistances(especialy vs Lasers).
Plate up a Mega, it is far better Plated as the Hype because of the extra low and the ability to fit a Neut or remote Rep.
Edit. Armor Platings, Implants and Named/Faction Items are there for a Reason if you still have fitting Issues. 
I dont need help fitting my ships that not what the thread is about. I already tried all the things you have stated cause im not a moron.
If you read the thread and you will agree ... repper bonus is useless in 90% of situations yes or no ! |

Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 13:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: joshmorris
If you read the thread and you will agree ... repper bonus is useless in 90% of situations yes or no !
I readed the Thread before I posted in the first place, since this is my common Forum use style.
And I disagree, the Rep Bonus is not useless 90% of the time. I agree it is against 2 well skilled gank fitted Ships of the same class, but not in general. |

s6dur
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 15:57:00 -
[54]
Hyperion full tank survives longer time, than plated setup when incoming dps is less than 1500 dps (1700 dps, if you overload reppers, and don't overload plated hyperion hardeners) So yes, you would have survived longer against 2 abaddons with plated setup, but ...
Quote: You should read teh whole thread before just posting. And btw i said useless in 90% of situations. Yes im sure there are videos with repper bonus being useful .. thats the 10%.
I just admire how you know exactly that 90% of time you get more damage than 1500 dps and so plated setup would be inferior :D. So please don't throw numbers, I am sure we, ordinary players, don't know exactly how many time people have encountered fights, where incoming dps favours tank, and how many fights, where incoming dps favours plate. And remember, we are talking about pvp only :). |

AKULA UrQuan
Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 16:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. 
If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus.
No, its not actually.
See the following explanation.
http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=15560
Actually in Bellum's case it is. 
By my rough math it takes four rep cycles from the LAR on his Hyperion in "L E G E N D A R Y" to equal one 1600mm RT plate. Maybe five depending on how crazy he went on the tri-marks. Strait raw math does not always equal what plays out ingame.  |

Xonkra
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 21:28:00 -
[56]
WHAT!? not all ships in eve are the same !?
Say it aint so ! |

Durethia
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.05.04 23:58:00 -
[57]
I like the repair bonus, but honestly, in my experience it doesn't seem to make a difference on some ships.
Battleships like the Kronos and the Hyperion with a 7.5% rep bonus, and providing you have lvl 5s, does provide a clear advantage. But, a 7.5 percent advantage on a starting figure of 800 (Large Armor Repairer II) will result in more gain than a 7.5% bonus from 320 (Medium Armor Repairer II). While it's true, the ratios will be the same, the significance of result is not the same. This is similar to having 10,000,000 USD in the bank generating enough interest to live off of, versus 10,000 USD whose interest is every bit negligable and won't even be noticed--the same interest rate, "It takes money, to make money".
So the ships that do not benefit as much from a 7.5% bonus to rep amount are the smaller ships with smaller armor repairers like some of the Battlecruisers, T1 and T2.
For the battlecruisers, I think the rep bonus should be 8.5. |

Vitrael
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.05.05 01:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: pandymen Sorry, but no. Where is the logic in that? Because a particular bonus is not optimized perfectly for pvp, the ship must change?
Quite simple. Ship is good at PVE, but bad at PVP because its low slots are pidgeon-holed into reppers.
Ship can be made arguably better at PVP (and inarguably more versatile) by un-pidgeon-holing it while keeping it equally effective in PVE.
How is this a problem? You think the Gallente are overpowered? 
It's not Gallente bias, I don't even fly them. It's just sensibility- diversity for diversity's sake. |
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