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joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:52:00 - [1] Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level. Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus. In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you. I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you , you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus. Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1. I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus with remote reps. K thx. Uber idea solves all !!
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:02:00 - [2] Edited by: arbalesttom on 30/04/2008 20:03:27 First And yes please swap the 7.5% repair amount bonus for a 7.5-10% bonus to armor hp *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:03:00 - [3] Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18 No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship. But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does) By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones. P.S. I hate you Arb Amarr is the tank OR gank race. Not the tank and gank race.
BABARR PARABELUM-Project	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:16:00 - [4] Bah, it's simply the usual question, why plated ship are more efficient in pvp than armor rep one. ... "Si vis pacem, parabellum"
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18 No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship. But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does) By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones. P.S. I hate you Arb Huh im talking about hyperions / myrms in remote repping gangs in low sec not nanoness. ... i havnt said 1 thing about drones. And btw logistics bonus is range / less cap use, i was just merely stating that what if the bonus for armor repair amount per level applied to all armor reps .. (remote too)so you can fit plates in the lows (which are much more useful than local reps) But still make use of the rep bonus by fitting remote reps and helping your friends. Uber idea solves all !!
Verrain Ravenlark	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:28:00 - [6] Thats great for PvP, but is poor for PvE where often sustained tank is superior to buffer.
Bronson Hughes The KAOS Holdings Group	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:31:00 - [7] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 30/04/2008 20:32:29 The repair amount bonus is geared more towards PvE than PvP. For sustained tanking, it's more efficient than a 5% resist per level bonus. It's generally considered to be far less useful for PvP though. A bonus to armor HP for Gallente ships instead of repair amount would be very nice for PvP, but I doubt it will ever happen as long as certain Minmatar ships keep their shield boost amount bonuses. A bonus to remote reps will never happen for non-logistics ships; that would just be too powerful for PvP. EDIT: As a subsitiute for the armor repair amount on the Brutix, the Hyperion, and the Astarte, I'd take a Thorax-esque MWD cap-penalty reduction in a heartbeat, but that would probably be wholly overpowered. Leave the tanking bonus on the Myrmidon and the Eos. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18 No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship. But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does) By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones. P.S. I hate you Arb WTB Falcon with drone bay
Zemeckis R	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:35:00 - [9] true maybe it can be usefull in pve, but not so much in pvp
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:49:00 - [10] I've always found it funny that some obscure Amarr cruiser has the best tanking bonus in the game, yet as a ship, is practically junk. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.30 20:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 30/04/2008 20:32:29 The repair amount bonus is geared more towards PvE than PvP. For sustained tanking, it's more efficient than a 5% resist per level bonus. It's generally considered to be far less useful for PvP though. A bonus to armor HP for Gallente ships instead of repair amount would be very nice for PvP, but I doubt it will ever happen as long as certain Minmatar ships keep their shield boost amount bonuses. A bonus to remote reps will never happen for non-logistics ships; that would just be too powerful for PvP. Bah mostly true appart from the minmatar bit. Armor repairing is slower to repair incoming dps and more cap efficient. Shield boosting is much more viable in pvp because it gives Alot of hp in a matter of seconds, its just alot less cap efficient, therefore the rep bonus for shields actually works alot better as you can hold of the incoming dps but just not for long. With armor tanking you maybe get 1 or 2 cycles in before you go pop (without a buffer that is) Uber idea solves all !!
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^ -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:03:00 - [13] As others have said, it is a good PvE bonus, but rarely matters in most PvP. Personally, I like it a lot for PvE, so I'm happy with it, even if it "wastes" a bonus in a lot of PvP situations. Now, in your fight with 2 Abaddons, I don't thank an armor HP bonus would have done you any good anyway. They still would have eaten you alive. For this reason, I find any tanking bonus is "wasted" in PvP and fit all my PvP ships for a lot more damage than tank. ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Perfect Diamond P.S. I hate you Arb *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
CptEagle Gallente Genius Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:37:00 - [15] The Paladin should have a resistance bonus as well, the current repair bonus makes no sense at all.
Zubakis Bambooule	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:41:00 - [16] Earlier i thought it too, that this bonus is weak for pvp. But then i realised that u can still make a good use out of this bonus. I take Hyperion as example. Now look at this two setups: BufferPlateHyperion: 2x1600rt,2xeanm,1xdc,3xtrimarks BufferLARHyperion: 1xLAR,1x1600rt,2xeanm,1xdc,3xtrimarks (tanks ~300dps) If you do the math you will see that this one LAR will nearly be equal to the plate. If incoming dps is very high, the LAR setup will die only some seconds earlier. But there are still some benefits: -You tank a good amount of dps on your own and use your own cap. -You can still repair yourself a little bit even when your logistic ships are disabled (ecm,damp). -With faction reps and overloading, you can furthermore improve your tank. In the end i agree the bonus is a little bit weak and this kind of a tank is very hard to realise on bc's and cs's. -- Zuba
thisismyalt	Posted - 2008.04.30 21:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^ -Liang Yo CCP, check out the all new CNF !!!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.04.30 22:21:00 - [18] Edited by: James Lyrus on 30/04/2008 22:22:15 Originally by: thisismyalt Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Larkonis Trassler WTB Falcon with drone bay Me too, esp if it gets bonuses to ECM drones. ^_^ -Liang Yo CCP, check out the all new CNF !!! /me drools. Anyway. Back on topic. As far as I'm concerned, there are some bonuses which are good, and some which are 'ok'. The good bonuses are things like damage, resists, speed. They make a really significant difference to the primary operation of the ship. Then there's the 'ok' bonuses. These are things like missile flight time, or ship agility, or 'more dronebay'. They're nice, and add a bit to the ship, but don't overly define it. An armour rep bonus is essentially worse than a resistances bonus. Whilst on paper, it gives more tank, this boost is only applicable when the tank is running, and relies on using an active repair unit. (Or booster, for the shield boost bonuses). Now, there's a whole lot of reasons that's bad - in PvP, up to the 'tank threshold' of the repair tank keeping up, it's better. But once this threshold is exceeded, it rapidly gets less effective - as the DPS increases, their life expectancy (and thus repair cycles) become defined by the number of effective hitpoints they have. A resistance boost, gives increases effective hitpoints, and increased effective repair efficiency. It's therefore useful to active, passive and buffer tanks. A repair amount bonus is only valid when the repper is running, and therefore only really applies to active tanking. So yes, it's worse. But... well, some ships get good bonuses, some not so much. The bonuses alone don't actually define how good the ship is. shrug. There's no easy fix really. A repair efficiency bonus is good for PvE. IF it got to the amount where it'd be good for PvP, then it'd be sick and wrong in PvE. But ... well, do you feel the ships with repair amount bonuses are underpowered for some reason? It might be fun to have remote rep amount in there too. I don't think that'd actually be all that much a problem - remote rep gangs have other limitations. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.04.30 22:27:00 - [19] Originally by: FT Diomedes As others have said, it is a good PvE bonus, but rarely matters in most PvP. Personally, I like it a lot for PvE, so I'm happy with it, even if it "wastes" a bonus in a lot of PvP situations. Now, in your fight with 2 Abaddons, I don't thank an armor HP bonus would have done you any good anyway. They still would have eaten you alive. For this reason, I find any tanking bonus is "wasted" in PvP and fit all my PvP ships for a lot more damage than tank. Well no tbh m8 i survived the fight with 378 structure left as my friends managed to rr me back up ... the fact that i was relying on my own ships bonus not buffer nearly got me killed. Uber idea solves all !!
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:23:00 - [20] There was an interesting thread about repair bonuses v's resist bonuses not so long ago, the math was quite convincing, basically what it proved was that to truly be a good niche, Repair bonuses need to be increased to closer to 10%/lvl to be effective in pvp. Bear in mind that the repair bonus has a small window of greater effectiveness vs resists, the window is very small however and in most cases resists are better. If I could find the link I would. CCP Fix the damned search function.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:39:00 - [21] Repping amount bonus favors repping only. HP amount favors buffer tanking only. Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now.
Mr Reeth Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:51:00 - [22] Originally by: Vitrael Repping amount bonus favors repping only. HP amount favors buffer tanking only. Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now. Yes, lets give the Gallente ships the same type of bonus that Amarr ships get. Let's make all the ships function the same way.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.01 01:58:00 - [23] resistance and armor hp bonus are amarrian. bonus to remote repping well that could be interesting. thats a idea one could pursue a little. i see the problems with active tanking and as such the discussion isn't unwarranted. but blurring the racial differences to help this problem will produce others and generally speaking "dumb down" the game. why should a hyperion for example tank as good buffewise as an abaddon and on the other hand also excel in active tanking? now you can argue abaddon can mount a decent active tank too and thats true. but it won't should lasers at the same time. amarr aren't versatile at all and that should be rewarded with being better than others at their niches. furthermore its not like gallente ships do not perform in pvp. as said by others its not only important how good/bad a certain bonus is but how the ships perfom as a whole. and i am not convinced the "useless" bonus induces any kind of balance problem. of course you can always make ships better from a design point of view but that doesn't say its needed.
easei AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Vitrael HP amount favors buffer tanking only. That's a flawed statement due to the nature of all armor tanks. Yes it has a greater effect if you passively tank it, but it still benefits active tanks. IMO the Hyperion at least needs a rework of it's rep bonus. The only reason to fly one(PvP) is because you want to fit neutron's and a sensor booster or ECCM, while avoiding the fitting issues with the Megathron.
Havohej Minmatar The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Perfect Diamond Edited by: Perfect Diamond on 30/04/2008 20:05:18 No, they shouldn't. You have logistics for remote rep bonuses. Obviously, the ship works better with few enemies but that's no reason to change it. Either work in a smaller gang or get a different ship. But your best bet is just to go nano. (everyone does) By the way With your logic the falcon should get bonuses to ECM drones and the curse should get bonuses to tracking disrupting and energy neutralizing drones. P.S. I hate you Arb Not arguing with you, but I'd like to point out that the Gallente have a T1 cruiser with remote repper bonuses as well, as a low-SP, low-cost alternative to the actual Logistics cruiser. Just like how the Osprey has remote shield repper bonuses, The Exequror has remote armor repper bonuses. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
pandymen The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Vitrael Simple solution is to replace 7.5% repping bonuses with 5% resistance bonuses to equally aid both repping and plating, therefore making the ship versatile (as we all say Eve should be) and just as effective as it is now. Sorry, but no. Where is the logic in that? Because a particular bonus is not optimized perfectly for pvp, the ship must change? No, gallente are already plenty powerful as they are. They do not need even better bonuses on their already good ships. You don't change a ships bonus just for the sake of making it better for pvp...unfortunately, things like balance come into play. There are plenty of other ships that have not exactly optimal bonuses like most caldari ships with missile flight time bonuses or amarr cruisers with tanking bonuses.
Eclip SUBLIME L.L.C.	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:43:00 - [27] There is a balance. Ive seen 3-4 intys kill a plated megathron. I bet that guy wished he had a rep on. The need and push for plated setups with hp buffers is due to the way ppl like to blob to ensure victory more then the ships inefficiencys to repair incomign damage. Example 2 abaddons. lest say 2k dps for example. hyperion tank with fit dual reps around 1k dps so all he needed was like 2 remote reps on to tank it was like 5-6 remote reps on him. Sure he would only have about 15s for his mates to get reps on him b4 he hit armor but 5-6 remote reps is easy to field and 5s for reps on is about the time in my experiece form RR gang that are used to RR ganging. SO survives with 3 mates remote repping him while they rip 2 abaddons Lets flip the coin, big passive tank now avg resist is like 60-65ish % for simplicity say 120k hit points roughly 80k on armor that gives 40s b4 the abaddons have him through armor. Now we need 14 remote reps to keep the 1 ship alive (tanking the dps indefinatly till out of cap) just cos its got a hit point buffer. Now we have the problem of less ppl to tank it and shorter time to get the remotes on or we have the longer survival time and a large amount of remote reps needed to be put on. more remote reps = blobbing so instead of 3-4 ppl we now have 8-9 people to tank the 2 ships. Personal reps have a place in PVP you just got to have a better couple of ppl watching your back. Each have their own uses. [/url]
easei AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:06:00 - [28] Edited by: easei on 01/05/2008 05:06:33 Originally by: Eclip Example 2 abaddons. lest say 2k dps for example. hyperion tank with fit dual reps around 1k dps so all he needed was like 2 remote reps on to tank it was like 5-6 remote reps on him. Sure he would only have about 15s for his mates to get reps on him b4 he hit armor but 5-6 remote reps is easy to field and 5s for reps on is about the time in my experiece form RR gang that are used to RR ganging. SO survives with 3 mates remote repping him while they rip 2 abaddons Lets flip the coin, big passive tank now avg resist is like 60-65ish % for simplicity say 120k hit points roughly 80k on armor that gives 40s b4 the abaddons have him through armor. Now we need 14 remote reps to keep the 1 ship alive (tanking the dps indefinatly till out of cap) just cos its got a hit point buffer. Now we have the problem of less ppl to tank it and shorter time to get the remotes on or we have the longer survival time and a large amount of remote reps needed to be put on. more remote reps = blobbing so instead of 3-4 ppl we now have 8-9 people to tank the 2 ships. Personal reps have a place in PVP you just got to have a better couple of ppl watching your back. Each have their own uses. I see a few problems with this. Your arguing that in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation reps are better. OK, I'll buy that. Now in a PvP situation where your gang of 6-10 is engaging their gang of 6-10 locals are a total waste of a slot, why, because theres a 99% chance they will have neuts. Even in the case you have an injector you're not going to be repping, and your guns won't be firing. Grats, basically your brick in space. The theory of remote rep gangs isn't necessarily to all out tank the DPS of a gang, but rather buy enough time for your gang to drop 1-2 of them before they kill the first one of you. In your scenario above you assume your gang's not going to be dealing out just as much hurt if not more to them.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:09:00 - [29] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/05/2008 05:12:20 Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:19:37 Edited by: joshmorris on 30/04/2008 20:16:11 Im gallente and as you know 1 of our bonuses is 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per level. Now for quite a long time i have thought this to be a useful bonus, but recently i have started to relise how much i ignore this bonus. In any fights larger than 1v1's or lots of very small dps ships in 1 fights your better putting a buffer tank and not putting reps then rely on your gang m8s to rep you. I live in low sec and we use remote repping gangs alot. I had a hyperion for ages but when 1 day 2 abaddons got me into structure in a matter of seconds (rigged for repair cycle reduction and 2 lar IIs), i relised the repair bonus was useless as any decent amount of dps on you goes through your armor in seconds, you would be better of with plates, which is sorta ignoring a bonus. Brutix for another example totally ignores its bonus as it just doesn't go well. Same with gallente command ships ... fitting a huge buffer tank and relying on your friends works so much better in any situation appart from 1v1. I think the repair bonus should be applied to remote reps too so ships like the hyperion and myrm can fit plate tank / trimarks but still make use of there bonus by effecting remote reps. ( Edit - Or maybe armor hp bonus ) K thx. Lol. Rep bonus useless? NO. If you think rep bonuses are useless, you're not setting up your ship right. 2x LAR on a Hype is a crap setup, for the exact reason you just mentioned. If you want examples of effective active tanking on a Hype, do a search for 'Bellum Eternus' on eve-files.com. You'll find plenty of vids with the Hype using it's active tanking bonus. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Crawler Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:03:00 - [30] actualy i find the rep-bonus a good addition im using a repair rig to so i got a rep of 1265hp/cycle instead of 800 also its pretty easy to elevate 2 resistances to 80% which is what i use for standard in a lvl 4 mission. basicly it gives a better tank then a abbadon if the enemy only have 2 damage types _____________________________________________ yawnnnnn

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