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Gallente EW, one nerf too far?

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sandshark LFC Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:05:00 - [1] Edited by: sandshark on 01/05/2008 02:11:43 Edited by: sandshark on 01/05/2008 02:05:21 I'd really like to bring some attention to the way the Gallente-race got its specialized EW ships rendered close to obsolete in comparison to most other races. This all came because of the sensor damping nerf. We all know the main EW that Gallente has, is sensor dampening, therefor rendering following ships now close to useless. - Celestis - Arazu - Lachesis - Keres That's why I want to propose this: Other races recon/EW ships (Caldari) have had their specialized bonus upgraded, so that the specialized ships would remain on the same level as the others afaik. (Correct me if i'm wrong) So why not do this for the Gallente as well? I am seeing less and less of these gallente EW ships on the battlefields of EVE, and i think it would be a real shame to let them go waste. (I've spoken with alot of pilots allready who are leaving their Arazu's, collecting dust around the universe) CCP, your comments would be greatly appriciated. sandshark edits: spelling
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:10:00 - [2] I agree. The ew per se is fine, the ships are not. That said there's a certain few followers that just won't give it up and still claim it's good way after it's expired. Kind of like comic book fans or people still wearing shoulder pads or long line jackets. Ew. Best suggestion I still see as simply flipping ecm and damp range. Possibly adding a very slight bonus to the specialized ships. Postcount: 372453
pandymen The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:44:00 - [3] FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:02:00 - [4] Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. The difference would be the range is reduced from 162km -> 81km for ECM, and from 45->81km for damps. This would mean damps would actually be viable to counter snipers and falcons(not just the other way around). ECM would still have superior range, and would still be able to completely render a ship useless, not just cripple it badly. And that's exactly the thing, you can't really counter caldari ewar with gallente ewar. A falcon stays 160k off, and all you can do is pray that your damps randomly hit it with it's 20% chance to hit, and at that point it'd have to warp off, or get closer, or just wait it out and keep jamming you. =) Postcount: 444878
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:42:00 - [5] Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Precisely. Range scripts for long range (or against ships with low sensor range), resolution scripts for close range. 160km is no problem for a Lachesis.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Precisely. Range scripts for long range (or against ships with low sensor range), resolution scripts for close range. 160km is no problem for a Lachesis. Heh, max optimal on a damp is 45km. Max fall-off is 90km. So with max skills each damp would have a 20%-30% likelyhood of doing anything. How is that no problem? No, damps were also lowered in effectiveness - not only scripted like boosters. They wen't from 48% -> 17%(34% scripted) which considering stacking penalties is a pretty huge nerf. I'm not saying they should be returned to what they were, I'm saying the Celestis and Maulus series should be fixed. Postcount: 348791
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:48:00 - [7] Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Actually your wrong. Sensor boosters were divided in half. Sensor damps were nerfed then divided in half. All the specialized damp ships were not overpowered before the damp nerf but were never buffed after ... so that leaves them underpowered, or at least to the point where your more useful fitting tracking distruptors. Uber idea solves all !!
sandshark LFC Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:13:00 - [8] Seems i forgot about the maulus, so added it to the list. About damps beeing the Caldari anti? I thought that was the intended job of ECCM.
Taguchi Hiroko Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:34:00 - [9] Arazu at its state right now is nothing but a hulky, glorified covert ops that cost almost 200mil to fit properly. I trained up for it and I stopped flying it long ago. You can put 4 damps on a bs with your Arazu, and it still pops you 30k away from it. On the other hand, a falcon will perma jam it with 3 ECM. Says something about the nerf.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:37:00 - [10] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Precisely. Range scripts for long range (or against ships with low sensor range), resolution scripts for close range. 160km is no problem for a Lachesis. Heh, max optimal on a damp is 45km. Max fall-off is 90km. So with max skills each damp would have a 20%-30% likelyhood of doing anything. How is that no problem? No, damps were also lowered in effectiveness - not only scripted like boosters. They wen't from 48% -> 17%(34% scripted) which considering stacking penalties is a pretty huge nerf. I'm not saying they should be returned to what they were, I'm saying the Celestis and Maulus series should be fixed. The performance over long range has not changed much, since a single hit is still enough to sufficiently neutralize a Falcon. What has been changed is the ability to range dampen large ships at close range, where Recons, Caldari and Gallente ships could use 3 damps to completely take you out, especially with t2 warp disruptors. Damps (with range scripts) are best as long range EW, where it uses your own range against you. They make Caldari come into drone range.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Ruciza The performance over long range has not changed much, since a single hit is still enough to sufficiently neutralize a Falcon. What has been changed is the ability to range dampen large ships at close range, where Recons, Caldari and Gallente ships could use 3 damps to completely take you out, especially with t2 warp disruptors. Damps (with range scripts) are best as long range EW, where it uses your own range against you. They make Caldari come into drone range. In fact, it hasn't changed at all. What has changed however is that damps used to render a ship uselessoutside of 10km, so you could simply orbit it or fend it off with a web. That option is(thankfully) gone. But what it also did was render a lachesis into a support support ship the most fragile of tacklers. It doesnt have the speed, sig radius nor the tank to defend itself. What I suggest is make it a useful tool against snipers, and cripple ECM for snipers instead. ECM obviously being stronger than damps in the first place, with the only drawback of being chancebased - doesn't need the huge bonus of extreme range aswell. Damps however need to either be able to hit the targets far off, or cripple the ones close. Right now ECM does both, Damps neither. This is the same issue Amarr and the smaller caldari vessels used to(and to a certain degeree still do) has - they're fighting in a sort of medium distance where no-one else is. A lachesis would probably be great att crippling someone fighting at 40-45km. But it's very rare for someone to be out there. They're either right on top of you(read 0-24km or 150km off. I'm not trying to restore what also I considered a flawed EW, I'm trying to save one that was nerfed once to much. Postcount: 773838
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:44:00 - [12] Edited by: Billy Merc on 01/05/2008 12:45:20 Edited by: Billy Merc on 01/05/2008 12:44:36 Jesus nothin is ever good enough eh ? As far as i know, 1 damp in range, will have a permanent adverse effect on a ship...where as ECM is always chanced based, no matter if u are in optimal or not. a falcon really on has one weapon ECM... give me a ****in break
Morthis Rygal Gallente Zero Potential	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:24:00 - [13] Edited by: Morthis Rygal on 01/05/2008 13:27:09 Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Honestly, if Gallente ewar was up to par, there would probably be a lot less complaining about Caldari ewar. As it stands, damps hit 45 optimal, 135 max. A falcon can easily operate 150km out without range rigs. So damps aren't all that effective. That's the core issue. To use a single damp effectively (like a falcon can use a single racial ecm quite effectively), your target needs to be pretty far away, otherwise they'll still be in range, yet the damps often don't even reach far enough for a single damp to drop them below optimal damp range. So damps don't counter long range very well, and they have virtually no effect on short range engagements. Quote: Jesus nothin is ever good enough eh ? As far as i know, 1 damp in range, will have a permanent adverse effect on a ship...where as ECM is always chanced based, no matter if u are in optimal or not. a falcon really on has one weapon ECM... give me a ****in break I guess being ignorant has it's merits, you can just pretend everybody else is whining. You're right though, a damp within optimal range has a 100% chance of success. Of course, a tracking disruptor on a missile boat has a 100% chance of success too, it's not doing a damn thing, but it sure is working! So tell me, which is better. A chance (let's say 50/50 at best) to render an opponent near useless for 20 seconds, or a "permanent" effect that reduces an enemy's locking range to something that is still well above the range at which your average fight takes place? Hell, even stacking damps on a BS it's unlikely you'll even damp them under the 24km scramble range. If damps were intended to ruin targets trying to fight at long range, then it needs a much better optimal (or to prevent other ships from being able to damp effectively, the ewar ships need a strong range bonus). If damps were intended to force targets in closely at shorter ranges, then damps need to reduce your range to nothing, which leads to some of it's own problems (like the web and damped under 10km thing mentioned). Of course they could make them chance based to reduce your range to crap, but then they'd be like more like a ghetto ECM (albeit with the easier counter of being very close). Not even sure how well they can be fixed. Completely destroy someone's range with them, and it might lead to some crappy situations where damps are worse than ECM, but with 100% effectiveness. Make them only affect long range, and they're nowhere near as universally useful as ECM. Not sure if there's a sweet spot in the middle there. Back before scripting, part of their advantage was that if you did manage to break someone's lock for close range engagements, they'd also spend forever relocking. So it would hurt their fighting ability, but once it happened, they could fly in closer, relock (which would take quite a bit longer) and keep going. Maybe finding some middle road there might work best.
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:38:00 - [14] Edited by: Billy Merc on 01/05/2008 13:38:40 Originally by: Morthis Rygal Edited by: Morthis Rygal on 01/05/2008 13:27:09 Originally by: pandymen FYI, caldari ewar remains mostly the same. The main difference is that the falcon now has the same bonus as the rook...like it should have had in the first place. And also keep in mind that the counter to gallente ewar (sensor boosters) was also nerfed just as badly as damps themselves. People do not use them because they are not the wtfpwn anymore and can't lock down to 10km using only 2 damps. However, at the same time, ppl also complain about caldari ewar, which can easily be countered with gallente ewar in its current state. Honestly, if Gallente ewar was up to par, there would probably be a lot less complaining about Caldari ewar. As it stands, damps hit 45 optimal, 135 max. A falcon can easily operate 150km out without range rigs. So damps aren't all that effective. That's the core issue. To use a single damp effectively (like a falcon can use a single racial ecm quite effectively), your target needs to be pretty far away, otherwise they'll still be in range, yet the damps often don't even reach far enough for a single damp to drop them below optimal damp range. So damps don't counter long range very well, and they have virtually no effect on short range engagements. Quote: Jesus nothin is ever good enough eh ? As far as i know, 1 damp in range, will have a permanent adverse effect on a ship...where as ECM is always chanced based, no matter if u are in optimal or not. a falcon really on has one weapon ECM... give me a ****in break I guess being ignorant has it's merits, you can just pretend everybody else is whining. You're right though, a damp within optimal range has a 100% chance of success. Of course, a tracking disruptor on a missile boat has a 100% chance of success too, it's not doing a damn thing, but it sure is working! So tell me, which is better. A chance (let's say 50/50 at best) to render an opponent near useless for 20 seconds, or a "permanent" effect that reduces an enemy's locking range to something that is still well above the range at which your average fight takes place? Hell, even stacking damps on a BS it's unlikely you'll even damp them under the 24km scramble range. If damps were intended to ruin targets trying to fight at long range, then it needs a much better optimal (or to prevent other ships from being able to damp effectively, the ewar ships need a strong range bonus). If damps were intended to force targets in closely at shorter ranges, then damps need to reduce your range to nothing, which leads to some of it's own problems (like the web and damped under 10km thing mentioned). Of course they could make them chance based to reduce your range to crap, but then they'd be like more like a ghetto ECM (albeit with the easier counter of being very close). Not even sure how well they can be fixed. Completely destroy someone's range with them, and it might lead to some crappy situations where damps are worse than ECM, but with 100% effectiveness. Make them only affect long range, and they're nowhere near as universally useful as ECM. Not sure if there's a sweet spot in the middle there. Back before scripting, part of their advantage was that if you did manage to break someone's lock for close range engagements, they'd also spend forever relocking. So it would hurt their fighting ability, but once it happened, they could fly in closer, relock (which would take quite a bit longer) and keep going. Maybe finding some middle road there might work best. u neglected to address the balance issue buddy....iam not saying damps "ok" iam saying the arazu has a host of other benifits (like the aforementioned 40m3 drone bay, the scram bonus ect) lol @ this thread honestly
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Billy Merc Edited by: Billy Merc on 01/05/2008 12:50:19 Jesus nothin is ever good enough eh ? As far as i know, 1 damp in range, will have a permanent adverse effect on a ship...where as ECM is always chanced based, no matter if u are in optimal or not. a falcon really on has one weapon ECM... Arazu has 40m3 of drone space + warp scram range bonus + damp bonus + the ability to field guns ontop of that...and yall still whinging ?? give me a ****in break Sometimes I wonder if some people even read the threads. The entire point is that damps right now very rarely makes a difference. Compare it to tracking disruptors on a Raven - look, there's an permanent adverse effect on those two random guns left in the utlity slots. Tracking disruptors are fearsome. It is VERY rare for a damp to actually disable a ship or even severly cripple it. Yes, an ECM is chancebased - but obviously increadibly much stronger. (I don't suppose you've noticed the spike in falconpilots lately? And the drop in celestis-class vessels?)I dare you to come up with 5 common roles where the damps are actually more effective than any other ew. I've never stated the arazu never can be used, I'm however stating that it's very rare to be the best job for the task. Look at gang setups and see how many will field an arazu. It's main task has been rendered to dampen whatever targets a falcon jam, so it can have some extra time to get a new jam in. As someone else stated - a support support ship. Yes, it can get a point, at a whooping 48km range, then again it's not very fast so you're normally just better of using an intie with it's 30km. Postcount: 681713
Jennae Gallente Unity of Honor	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:40:00 - [16] Boost the 5% effectiveness to 10% and give it a damp range bonus (drop the hybrid bonus) Give the Lachesis 25m/s more speed.
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:43:00 - [17] Edited by: Billy Merc on 01/05/2008 13:43:56 points to my previous, highlighting on the word balance
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:49:00 - [18] Reading isnt your strongest point, is it? You say lachesis suckyness is fine because it also gets other bonusses, he says remove the other bonus (the hybrid one) and replace it. Should be fine according to you. Another problem: Damps are countered by sensor boosters, while not always great, they will always give you faster locking if there isnt a damp ship, resulting in more damage done. Tracking disruptors are countered by tracking computers, which will always give you more range/tracking, which is always good. ECM is countered by ECCM, which is completely pointless unless someone actually uses ECM on you.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Furb Killer Reading isnt your strongest point, is it? You say lachesis suckyness is fine because it also gets other bonusses, he says remove the other bonus (the hybrid one) and replace it. Should be fine according to you. Another problem: Damps are countered by sensor boosters, while not always great, they will always give you faster locking if there isnt a damp ship, resulting in more damage done. Tracking disruptors are countered by tracking computers, which will always give you more range/tracking, which is always good. ECM is countered by ECCM, which is completely pointless unless someone actually uses ECM on you. Useless! No way! It makes you harder to probe down ;D Postcount: 721977
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko Arazu at its state right now is nothing but a hulky, glorified covert ops that cost almost 200mil to fit properly. I trained up for it and I stopped flying it long ago. You can put 4 damps on a bs with your Arazu, and it still pops you 30k away from it. On the other hand, a falcon will perma jam it with 3 ECM. Says something about the nerf. What counters did the jammed BS use in this comparison? For a BS to still be able to lock that arazu it need 2 sensorboosters fitted. Did the permajammed BS have 2 ECCM`s fitted? A scorpion with 2 sensorbooster will be unable to lock anything outside 31km range with 4 damps on it. And a scorpion with 2 ECCM fitted will have a 41,5 % chance of getting jammed with 3 racial jammers comming from a falcon. Hardly permajammed!! If you gonbna start making comparisons, atleast try do it on a even level.
Furb Killer The Peacekeeper Core	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:57:00 - [21] A scorpion should be outside damp range.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.05.01 14:49:00 - [22] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Taguchi Hiroko Arazu at its state right now is nothing but a hulky, glorified covert ops that cost almost 200mil to fit properly. I trained up for it and I stopped flying it long ago. You can put 4 damps on a bs with your Arazu, and it still pops you 30k away from it. On the other hand, a falcon will perma jam it with 3 ECM. Says something about the nerf. What counters did the jammed BS use in this comparison? For a BS to still be able to lock that arazu it need 2 sensorboosters fitted. Did the permajammed BS have 2 ECCM`s fitted? A scorpion with 2 sensorbooster will be unable to lock anything outside 31km range with 4 damps on it. And a scorpion with 2 ECCM fitted will have a 41,5 % chance of getting jammed with 3 racial jammers comming from a falcon. Hardly permajammed!! If you gonbna start making comparisons, atleast try do it on a even level. Maybe you should also try it. A scorpion sitting at 150km only needs to counter an average of 2 damps (if the damp pilot has maxxed his ewar range skills). In disruptor range fights the scorpion could opt to close in and still use its ewar to full effect. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Imaos	Posted - 2008.05.01 14:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Billy Merc u neglected to address the balance issue buddy....iam not saying damps "ok" iam saying the arazu has a host of other benifits (like the aforementioned 40m3 drone bay, the scram bonus ect) lol @ this thread honestly Nice balance if you consider that recons use the ewar as their tank. Try to hold an enemy down or use drones or turrets/missiles when you are in a pod. Atm poeple tend to use damage or ewar ships and hybrids like the gallente recon line are like split weapon ships: they excell at none. Not at damage not at ewar and the have nothing you could call tank. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
LoKesh Amarr InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.01 15:03:00 - [24] Why do people always forget that Caldari ewar ships get bonuses to just ONE system? The Gallente ships can warp scramble out to ridiculous ranges. Combine this with the ability to damp (damping someone to less than 25 km is still very possible) and you have a ship that can hold an enemy in place an neutralize much of the incoming damage to your friends. The Caldari get the ability to jam from farther out. In exchange their ewar effect is not 100% certain and they don't have any other abilities. This fits the Caldari ethos of range. (We won't even talk about the fact that Gallente get a drone bay) I like having an arazu, celestis or keres in my fleet - they're useful. Leave it be. xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works
sandshark LFC Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:47:00 - [25] I would like to point out again we are not only talking about the T2 ships here. The T1 ships are hurt even more, since they have little other bonusses and are really intended for mainly using damps.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:30:00 - [26] Edited by: General Coochie on 01/05/2008 23:30:17 Billy Merc, Lokesh I guess we arazu/lach pilots should all be happy spending 200mill on a ship to make it perform as an inty but with a bit more dps and much less survivability? Quote: The T1 ships are hurt even more, since they have little other bonusses and are really intended for mainly using damps Thank you. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:41:00 - [27] Originally by: General Coochie I guess we arazu/lach pilots should all be happy spending 200mill on a ship to make it perform as an inty but with a bit more dps and much less survivability? This, a hic/inty can do it better and doesnt have a worthless damp bonus. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. If real men fly amarr, what does a nbermensch fly then? ---> Gallente ^(>_<)^
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.01 23:54:00 - [28] As an Arazu pilot I would like to make arguments for both sides. (to be fair.) Pros: Sensor Dampeners work great in TEAM PLAY. That means it is best if you have an ECM ship in your fleet, when the jammer gets a cycle on, you damp the target with scan res scripts. Then the target is going to take longer to get a lock. So, it works really great if you have team play, but.... Cons: Targeting Range Dampening is close to useless. If you are going to targeting range damp something, if they have one sensor booster they have effectively claimed victory over your 3 (4 would be too much penalty) targeting range dampeners. Also, the ship is only capable of fleet warfare. No longer is it viable in small roaming gangs, except for the scram range bonus. So that is the only bonus left on the ship worth anything. Realize that even though the ship has two bonuses, the one that is most commonly whined about (Sensor Dampening) is on a host of other ships that get no other notable bonuses. The Griffin would win to a Maulus hands down, because it would jam it to pieces and the Maulus could get no DPS in. Same with a Blackbird against a Celestis. Sensor Dampeners should be stronger, simply because they should be able to overcome sensor boosters. I am tired of Falcon pilots coming into these threads and whining about "BALANCE" because the simple fact is the ARAZU IS NOT THE ONLY SHIP THAT CAN USE A SENSOR DAMPENER. FFS >=\|
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:17:00 - [29] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/05/2008 00:24:17 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa As an Arazu pilot I would like to make arguments for both sides. (to be fair.) Pros: Sensor Dampeners work great in TEAM PLAY. That means it is best if you have an ECM ship in your fleet, when the jammer gets a cycle on, you damp the target with scan res scripts. Then the target is going to take longer to get a lock. Question is: Would another ECM ship be better? 4 damps on a BS would increase his lock time to 40sec vs another BS. 2 damps - 28sec. So for 40sec the arazu can damp the ONE BS that was jammed and let falcon jam something else. Would another falcon be more viable? Seeing at it has 90% chance with 2 ECM racials and lets say there are 2 targets about that match the racial ECM fitted. It needs 2 cycles during 40sec from 8 total cycles (4 mods 2 cycles each) to match the arazus helpfulness. Statistics says it will not only that but it will actually jam both these ships most of the time. Basicly doing the work of 2 arazus scan res dampening.. And now we aren't even taking into account that the arazu might want to be more then 45km away from the fight reducing its effectiveness even more. If its say 80km away it has the same chance for its damps to work as the falcon has. Now take into consideration what ranges they both operate at and which one of them would more likely escape a nano hac putting a point on them. Of course scan res scripts are not useless, its just stupid to fly them if you can fly a falcon. What would you rather bring to the gang? Not only for your gangs sake, for your own wallet as well.. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Captain Agemman Minmatar Legio Ultra	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:22:00 - [30] I'd like to see the introduction of a new lowslot module that gives +40% optimal range for sensor dampeners, tracking disruptors, target painters.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:32:00 - [31] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/05/2008 00:32:33 Sorry just had to quote this Originally by: Billy Merc + the ability to field guns ontop of that And the falcon doesn't? I see now your obviously trolling. Took the bait, oh well life goes on.
Sadist Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:10:00 - [32] Yes, it's pretty sad that in their current state arazu and lachesis are countered by a single t2 sensor booster, even if they fit a full rack of EW. While I agree that they were a bit too powerful before the nerf, they are now a laughingstock among every cruiser-sized ship (t1 included).
Eirlie Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:42:00 - [33] Yep, well, I gotta admit my Arazu has been out and about a few times recently. I find it good against belt rats. In the "I'm bored and I feel like doing something different" type of good. Although I think the good wore off.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.05.02 03:05:00 - [34] The damps are about as useful as lowslot-less ECMs are right now. But introducing a lowslot boosting module will only make the damps pretty much the same to ECM. I also notice the pathetic range on damps. Sorry guys, but a Arazu will never counter my Falcon, since I can sit 249km away (optimal) with rigs and the Arazu can only sit at about 150 with rigs (and thats with falloff ) I can see the ships role (damp + orbit with point and wait for friends), but honestly, in the world of nanos this is never feaseable. It's role is totally broken in 80%* of solo situations and 99%* of fleet situations. Increase damp effectiveness and even go as far as swapping it's optimal and falloff values. percentages 100%* made up **percentage not made up
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.05.02 03:42:00 - [35] Edited by: Ruciza on 02/05/2008 03:42:49 Vocabulary like "useless" and "totally broken" only means "please change it in accordance with my favourite yet limited playstyle". You won't prove a negative, and even one account of "I used it and it works" will blow you out of the water. Normally then the "Oh that was an incompetent pilot or no true Scotsman" crowd will take over. The internets depress me.
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Dianeces on 02/05/2008 04:09:06 In response to everyone who says damps are currently broken; I just tested one out, it works just fine both with scripts and without. I think you might be doing it wrong.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything. Wrath.	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:39:00 - [37] Low slot with huge range increases so that with 2-3 in lows you're looking at 250 range of damps including falloff. This makes them very useful for fleet engagements. You could have one damp ship effectively make 3+ snipers useless. It would also effectively counter ECM. This gives damps a purpose.
Shopmuleomg	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:07:00 - [38] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 02/05/2008 03:42:49 Vocabulary like "useless" and "totally broken" only means "please change it in accordance with my favourite yet limited playstyle". You won't prove a negative, and even one account of "I used it and it works" will blow you out of the water. Normally then the "Oh that was an incompetent pilot or no true Scotsman" crowd will take over. The internets depress me. By all means, enlighten us at to the right playstyle to make them useful then.
Barbens Sky Net Industries Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.02 06:46:00 - [39] I cant agree more that something needs done here. This is actually the second nerf to the sensor damps(if any of you are old enough to remember). Its really taken the usefulness, and the purpouse out of these ships. Pre-nerf i was getting 60%+ on each damp (arazu), now post patch, with a rig im sitting at 48%. Taken a lot of the bite out. BaRbEnS
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.02 08:40:00 - [40] falcon .: Ecm (chance based) .: 2 launchers and a gun or 2 guns and a launcher Arazu .: Scram range bonus .: Damp bonus .: 3 guns .: 40m3 of drone space rolls eyes I dont fly recons anymore...bullet magnets Instead of focusing on what your ship cant do, home in on what it can do...jeez the eve community is turning into nothing but a bunch of whingers these days. "oh noes my omgwtf pwn mobile is broke" or whatever it is u kids say these days.
sandshark LFC Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Billy Merc falcon .: Ecm (chance based) .: 2 launchers and a gun or 2 guns and a launcher Arazu .: Scram range bonus .: Damp bonus .: 3 guns .: 40m3 of drone space rolls eyes I dont fly recons anymore...bullet magnets Instead of focusing on what your ship cant do, home in on what it can do...jeez the eve community is turning into nothing but a bunch of whingers these days. "oh noes my omgwtf pwn mobile is broke" or whatever it is u kids say these days. Ok now plz compare the Celestis and the Blackbird. Or the Griffin and the Maulus. People, who just read titles and the last post don't have a clue what the essence of this post is tbh.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:21:00 - [42] Edited by: General Coochie on 02/05/2008 11:23:47 Originally by: Billy Merc falcon .: Ecm (chance based) .: 2 launchers and a gun or 2 guns and a launcher Arazu .: Scram range bonus .: Damp bonus .: 3 guns .: 40m3 of drone space rolls eyes I dont fly recons anymore...bullet magnets Instead of focusing on what your ship cant do, home in on what it can do...jeez the eve community is turning into nothing but a bunch of whingers these days. "oh noes my omgwtf pwn mobile is broke" or whatever it is u kids say these days. * Damps chance based outside of 45km * Falcon does about same dps (might differ 2-4 dps) with guns (missiles/guns) at 45km. * Falcon does more dps over 60km. * Yes arazu got a drone bay, I agree its good * Yes they are bullet magnet. What would you rather be in, a bullet magnet incapable of defending it self at 45km or a bullet magnet at 250km very capable of defending itself? There is a reason ppl are cross training for falcons and letting their arazus collect dust in the hangar you know? Effective EW + survivability >>>>>>>> Drone bay, scram bonus. If I wanted a drone bay I'd be flying a ishtar, if I wanted to tackle I'd be flying a inty. If I want to EW I should just accept that the arazu is worthless in that role, and be happy that it can tackle fairly good and do some 200dps under optimal circumstances?

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