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Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:01:00 - [121] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? Moving ice from highsec would reduce afk mining potential of the required resource and increase its value since the bots and solo players will move to the low end ores. Since Ice is required to run pos's and operate jump drives some one will have to mine it as opposed to ignore it (see lvl5 missions and booster production) adding luxuries to lowsec won't populate lowsec moving necessities to lowsec will populate lowsec No, it will maybe populate 0.0 where mining ice is more secure.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:02:00 - [122] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby See, here is one of the reasons these arguements always go wrong. MANY of us don't really care about making more ISK; just because we can make 30% more doing the same activities somewhere else is NOT inventive to move. We play for what we perceive is fun, not to amass great wealth; ISK for the sake of ISK doesn't interest me or I would be a lot more aggressive running my missions What ISN'T fun is trying to do your daily activities while constantly watching over your shoulder and scanning everyone that comes through local. Its fun occasionally, but no way I would ever consider mining and doing that. So again, what incentive do I have to even consider LowSec for a home? If I had to go there to get Ice to fuel the POS I would just shut it down instead as it really isn't worth the effort and the return isn't worth the risk.... I don't care if it's an incentive to you or not. It has been an incentive to others in the past. And if future changes to the game make lowsec's risk to isk more appealing, it will be an incentive to others again. It isn't the "arguement going wrong". It is the simplest aspect of the game that drives it. There should really be nothing else involved. If it doesn't appeal to you, fair enough. But that's not a problem to solve imo. Find your fun. Do your thing. Live and let live, yadda yadda... To me it isn't about more targets for pirates or suicide monkeys or any of the other goofy crap that always comes out in these threads. It should be an obvious scale of reward based on risk and let everyone figure out what they find fun on their own. Everything else is just noise. Besides, I already said I wasn't supporting the ice suggestion. I was simply addressing the "why should I feel compelled" question.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:05:00 - [123] Lets remove all game content from highsec. That way people will have to move to lowsec or 0.0 in order to play the game. Those areas will thrive with new players while highsec will become deserted. oh, wait. What new players?
Una D Ex Coelis	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:31:00 - [124] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Una D That is easy. Force players out of the NPC corps. Just make it so they can't do anything useful in them (no using barges, no criminal acts, no missions above L2, no going to 0.0). That will force the farmers in to player created corps. Than you just make the timer to jump corporation 48+ hours and war decc them. Players get PvP, police the macros and everybody is happy (except for the fact that prices would go up quite a bit). And you just alienated 37% of your experienced and ACTIVE players. If even 1/2 of those quit CCP's wallet would be hit considerably. You meant the elite PvPers that whine about lack of PvP but have alts in NPC corps to protect them from war deccs? Ah yes they would be ****ed but I figured it balances out the threads whine for more easy targets. :)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:46:00 - [125] Originally by: El'Niaga Originally by: callisthenes excelsior This thread explores the idea that to improve low sec, low sec needs better rewards as well as players need to move from hi sec to populate low sec. 1) remove ALL hi sec ice 2) seed more good 0.0 ice in low sec--remember some low sec ALREADY has dark glitter 3) debate--what would the effects be and would it be a step in the right direction or solution 1. Bad idea. This will not cause them to move to low sec. Nerfing areas seldom works. Removing gameplay elements only angers people and causes them to leave games. 2. This actually is a good idea and might attract some into low sec. By providing a higher value item you attract them there. The problem of 0.0/low/hi populations is far more dynamic than you think. Removing or nerfing hi sec will not ever move more people to low sec or 0.0, at best it'll have no result at worst folks will leave EVE. Low sec needs the ore/ice available made more valuable while not taking anything from hi sec. At the same time missions in low sec need to have a danger pay compponent where they pay more money than the same mission in Hi Sec. (For example Gone Berserk is normally around 350k pay and 350k bonus. Leave it that for high sec and boost by 50% for low sec). 0.0 requires more than just coding changes it requires a change in the attitudes of players. If you want more people there you have to stop shooting them as they try to get there. 0.0's greatest problem is the lack of infrastructure to support even a moderate sized population while at the same time the predominately NBSI policy of almost every 0.0 alliance (there are a couple of exceptions but not many). 1. Prove it 2. But not high enough of a value that requires you to be playing the game to mine as opposed to running a bot 3.how do you know? 4.Making lowsec/0.0 ores more valuable will not ever match the afk isk and convinience of running a bot. 5. Really because the first few pages of this thread say that if you can mine in lowsec you can mine in 0.0 no problem are you saying there are people that will kill you in 0.0!?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin 1. Prove it Don't have too. CCP agrees appearantly and has already stated numerous times they are not going to force players out of HighSec because it won't work. The quotes aren't that hard to find if you look. Quote: 2. But not high enough of a value that requires you to be playing the game to mine as opposed to running a bot No bots running here. Nor on the machines of anyone I know. Huh, guess we are playing the game and in HighSec too. Funny that. Quote: 3.how do you know? Because we play with dedicated HighSec Carebears? We ARE the people you are talking about? Somehow I have a feeling we are a bit more in touch with how they think than you are Quote: 4.Making lowsec/0.0 ores more valuable will not ever match the afk isk and convinience of running a bot. What is the fascination you have about all HighSec players running bots? Quote: 5. Really because the first few pages of this thread say that if you can mine in lowsec you can mine in 0.0 no problem are you saying there are people that will kill you in 0.0!? lol, reading comprehension ftl. Of COURSE they will shoot you, but the previous posts assumed that you would make the arrangements to be BLUE to them. If you ARE blue, then you are fairly safe unless you are in a contested area. If they won't let you be Blue, then you stay in HighSec. Simple enough. I'm still waiting for proof that a mass migration to LowSec will happen if this plan is implemented. Seems to me that every carrot or force in the past has just had the opposite result... And then there are CCP's Devs specifically stating they aren't going to force anyone out of HighSec, meaning the whole conversation is mute....
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:59:00 - [127] Originally by: Una D You meant the elite PvPers that whine about lack of PvP but have alts in NPC corps to protect them from war deccs? Ah yes they would be ****ed but I figured it balances out the threads whine for more easy targets. :) Read the Dev Blog. 37% of all ACTIVE players are in HighSec; active being defined as more than 2m skill points, logged in multiple times during the week and making multiple jumps while logged in. If you count inactive and under 2m sp alts, that number is 51%. So, of those 37% of all players how many do you think will leave the game if their preferred play-style is eliminated? Even if a large percentage of those are alts, how many alt accounts will be canceled if they no longer fulfill the reason they were started? Empty bank accounts want to know....
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:05:00 - [128] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Tarminic If you want people to move to low-sec that means lowering the RISK. As much as you pirates might not like it, this leaves us with limited options: 1. Make it easier for carebears to avoid being ganked 2. Make it harder for pirates to gank carebears 3. Make it easier for anti-pirates to protect carebears from ganking Nothing else will have a significant impact on low-sec population. I have to agree with you. Lowsec is supposed to be a halfway move between highsec and 0.0 and the rewards are not nearly as good as 0.0 to reflect this. However, the risks are far greater in lowsec than in most 0.0 areas which means the risk/reward ratio is way out of balance. This is one of the primary reasons for the lack of enthusiasm for lowsec. To the OP: Moving highsec ice to lowsec will not cause players to move there, it just means less resources in highsec and more empty roid belts. Eventually, newer players will quit due to lack of isk to buy skillbooks and ships etc for their characters. If they are forced into lowsec and find that the rewards do not cover the loss of ships and stuff, they will quit even faster. Some may prefer less players but since this is CCP's income, the patches, new shinies and server upgrades rely on this income to allow us to play a better game. Instead of trying to find ways to FORCE people into lowsec, why not try to find ways of limiting the risk to entice them to go there willingly? Make it possible to actually earn an income in lowsec rather than losing isk faster than you can make it and it becomes a viable place to live. It's time CCP understood that, although this is a MMO, there are still solo players. Those who prefer not to rely on others to keep them safe as there are more cowards in this game than there are real players. It wouldn't be the first time I have teamed up only to find my team mates bailed when it got too hot, leaving me to face a lowsec gate camp alone. I lost a ship and pod as well on one occasion but in highsec, I can't even pop and pod my teammates to say thankyou to them for it. Although I am in a corp and alliance, I will often go it alone because my trust in others has been severely crushed. New Players will not quit because they can't mine ice This is a graph
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:07:00 - [129] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Besides, I already said I wasn't supporting the ice suggestion. I was simply addressing the "why should I feel compelled" question. And yet the question is still there and the answer is the same; higher rewards will not necessarily make players move. To do so those rewards will have to outstrip the losses considerably. How high do the rewards have to be in order to offset the loss of ONE faction-fitted CNR to lowsec pirates for a player that missions a couple of nights a week? You can argue all you want about not "needing" a faction-fitted ship, but the simple fact is many players LIKE their shiney toys. CCP is never going to raise rewards to the point where even losing one occasionally will still make the player ISKies, so LowSec is going to remain fairly empty. My question to the OP, which others have asked and still remains unanswered, is WHY do you care if we are in LowSec or not? Play how you like, we will play how we like. Nerf our play style too much and we leave for other games that fit our needs. shrugs Every player enjoys the game for their own reasons, if they are no longer enjoying it they will leave. It really is that simple. This isn't like RL where your only way out is to die....
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:07:00 - [130] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Originally by: Gridwalker Originally by: Tarminic The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. Can someone just explain WHY this is an actual "problem"? I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people who play in hi-sec need to play in lo-sec. -Grid You have still yet to explain what a "real" pirate is There isn't any problem except all these wannabe Pirates have no sheeps they can farm ... erm, Victims they can gang ... erm, get no good fights .... args, sorry, they don't like good fights, just sheeps
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:09:00 - [131] Originally by: Gridwalker You're not answering my question. All you're doing is repeating WHY I _CAN_ stay in hi sec. Tell me why YOU _WANT_ ME in lo sec? Give me just one compelling reason why you feel that I should be compelled or required to spend time in lo sec? -Grid I don't want you just the ice
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:10:00 - [132] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin New Players will not quit because they can't mine ice This is a graph And you just proved our points as to LowSec and if players would go there: There are only 2 "Popular" PvP ships in that list, and both of them are also excellent PvE ships. The number of PvE players and ships far exceeds the number of PvP ones for many reasons, but most of those factors include the reasons we are in HighSec and not LowSec/0.0
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:12:00 - [133] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I don't want you just the ice You already have ice, and better than we do.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:12:00 - [134] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Marcus TheMartin several posts Marcus, you know exactly how untankable is a mining barge or even an exumer against a player driven ship. A pirate can warp in a belt at 100 km, kill the target and warp away before the defenders can engage him effectively (i.e. scrambling and webbing him) and before the barge warp away, especially if the target is ice mining, where stopping the cycle mean losing all the work and the specialized ship is paper thin. In low sec a competent and large defending force can get revenge but can't defend a miner. In 0.0 a competent force will be guarding the gates and can protect the ice miner. So ice mining in low sec is rarely done, and only in those few system that can be secured like 0.0 systems. Removing ice belts from high sec would not move the ice miners in low sec, those interested in getting isk ice mining will enter 0.0 alliances were they can be protected and do their trade there. The others will change activity. How often do you find sniper fit ships taking out barges? with the current way local works you would know well before the offending party even loaded grid barges would be well in warp
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:13:00 - [135] Actually, I would be in favour of this. Of course noone would move to lowsec, thats a silly notion. But it would force 0.0 alliances to get more iceminers in their own space to keep their POSses fueled. More miners = more targets
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:14:00 - [136] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin How often do you find sniper fit ships taking out barges? with the current way local works you would know well before the offending party even loaded grid barges would be well in warp How do you mine ice when you dock everytime someone enters local? With a base of 10 minutes cycle time you might as well just stay docked because unlike mining for normal Ore, if you abort in the middle you don't get a partial cycle; you get nothing.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:16:00 - [137] Originally by: caladron prime I am relatively new to non-empire life, having made the move to 0.0 for many of my efforts. The only time I spend in low-sec, is the time it takes to jump from there to 0.0 when flying in or cyno-ing, and none when clone jumping. This thread is a rant for more fodder for low-sec grammar school bullies. The reason why 0.0 is safer is because it is player-policed. Alliances and corps, regardless of affiliation, protect and govern their space effectively and ruthlessly. In low-sec, pirates have the best of both worlds-choke points for a target rich environment, and freedom from fear of reprisal. You could put a 99% off Gold plated Titan sale in low sec, and I am not going. Moving ice to low sec just sets another bear trap for the pirates. I always thought that piracy was activity with disregard for the rules and laws. Why, then, do pirates constantly want to have the rules changed to endorse and buff piracy? Pirate-life us SUPPOSED to be a tough, high risk, unpredictable reward activity, and the 'good' pirates that I have run into are in it for the thrill and the lifestyle, not for the reward. This type of suggestion would ony serve to help out the gank-rates, and I would hope that true pirates would reject this kind of idea as an insult to their way of life. Way to take the higher ground You can easily say you wont take the low priced titan due to the fact that you know it won't happen.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:19:00 - [138] Originally by: Venkul Mul Most people take an occasional shot to low sec, what the OP, most pirates and other assorted people want is that they become permanent residents and that is what most high sec dwellers don't want. More that the "risk" it is the need to be constantly on alert. I game to relax and that include going to low sec if I am of the right humor and want to risk some combat or explore for better rewards, ecc., what I am not interested in is to have to look behind my back every 30 seconds, check the bio of every player entering system, scanning for probes, ecc. when I am not of the right humor to do that. So I take a occasional shot to low sec but will not live there. And for sure will not mine ice there. Do you come home from a hard days work and say hey lets mine some ice? You refine then sell it but then what? I'm not sure any one considers mining ice fun or soothing of course that is just an assumption
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:21:00 - [139] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I'm not sure any one considers mining ice fun or soothing of course that is just an assumption Like many other assumptions people are making in this thread and spouting as proof, your assumptions are wrong. After a long, annoying day the thrum of mining lasers can actually be soothing. If your machine can run with its sound on, of course
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:36:00 - [140] Originally by: Thornorn All I read out of this post is force force force players to low sec. what wrong..you running out of targets out there ??? thanks for your constructive post Originally by: Abrazzar Lets remove all game content from highsec. That way people will have to move to lowsec or 0.0 in order to play the game. Those areas will thrive with new players while highsec will become deserted. oh, wait. What new players? Removing ice = death of highsec amirite? Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby And you just alienated 37% of your experienced and ACTIVE players. If even 1/2 of those quit CCP's wallet would be hit considerably. This isn't a shareholders meeting this is about game balance Originally by: Venkul Mul No, it will maybe populate 0.0 where mining ice is more secure. It will maybe? do you know what it will do or are you just guessing?
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:44:00 - [141] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Long quote 1.You are trying to convince me so provide the evidence 2. Congratulations would you like a medal for being e-honorable, that doesn't change the fact that the afk isk 5.made with bots is being exploited 3. But you are not the collective voice of all players in highsec so who are you to say what every one of you are potential of or are going to do. 4. I warped into a ice belt once But if you are blue to a 0.0 alliance you are getting taxed or paying them rent a detail not pointed out by the we'll just go to 0.0 crowd 6. I am not gunning for a mass exodus just a need to visit for the galaxy to continue to function hence the request for the removal of ice. Every "carrot" as previously state were luxury items that weren't required for the function of the galaxy you don't need / can't travel in highsec with boosters, who needs to explore when you can grab a paper and suck veld?, who needs lvl5 missions when lvl4's pay out more vs the time / people needed to get the job done? 7. Provide a link to the quote or you are just typing.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:47:00 - [142] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/05/2008 20:48:09 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Marcus TheMartin How often do you find sniper fit ships taking out barges? with the current way local works you would know well before the offending party even loaded grid barges would be well in warp How do you mine ice when you dock everytime someone enters local? With a base of 10 minutes cycle time you might as well just stay docked because unlike mining for normal Ore, if you abort in the middle you don't get a partial cycle; you get nothing. I find mining in low traffic systems reduces the amount of docking I do Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Marcus TheMartin I'm not sure any one considers mining ice fun or soothing of course that is just an assumption Like many other assumptions people are making in this thread and spouting as proof, your assumptions are wrong. After a long, annoying day the thrum of mining lasers can actually be soothing. If your machine can run with its sound on, of course Buy The Sounds of EVE CD get your corps AIM screen names and save 15bux a month?
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.02 20:56:00 - [143] I think this is just the thing low-sec needs. Something VITAL to the eve economy. It may not drive the carebears out of high-sec, but it will allow organized corps to make a ****load of money, and bring new blood into low-sec.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 21:18:00 - [144] Originally by: Inertial I think this is just the thing low-sec needs. Something VITAL to the eve economy. It may not drive the carebears out of high-sec, but it will allow organized corps to make a ****load of money, and bring new blood into low-sec. By fresh blood you mean ofc 0.0 players? They are already making serious money since the risk / reward are balanced in 0.0. You can¦t mine Moons in High-sec either. Remove Ice from High-sec will have the same effect as Moon-materials already have. The only thing that will change with removing Ice from High-sec is some inflation on things that need Ice-material. Players aren¦t leaving High-sec to mining Moons of the same reason they will not mine Ice if it gets low-sec only. There are other risk-free ways to earn Isks. Now prove me wrong!
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 22:58:00 - [145] Originally by: Victor Forge Originally by: Inertial I think this is just the thing low-sec needs. Something VITAL to the eve economy. It may not drive the carebears out of high-sec, but it will allow organized corps to make a ****load of money, and bring new blood into low-sec. By fresh blood you mean ofc 0.0 players? They are already making serious money since the risk / reward are balanced in 0.0. You can¦t mine Moons in High-sec either. Remove Ice from High-sec will have the same effect as Moon-materials already have. The only thing that will change with removing Ice from High-sec is some inflation on things that need Ice-material. Players aren¦t leaving High-sec to mining Moons of the same reason they will not mine Ice if it gets low-sec only. There are other risk-free ways to earn Isks. Now prove me wrong! So the moons that keep blowing me up don't exist right?
Blackjack Turner Caldari Inverted Awareness United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:19:00 - [146] Originally by: callisthenes excelsior This thread explores the idea that to improve low sec, low sec needs better rewards as well as players need to move from hi sec to populate low sec. 1) remove ALL hi sec ice 2) seed more good 0.0 ice in low sec--remember some low sec ALREADY has dark glitter 3) debate--what would the effects be and would it be a step in the right direction or solution Jeez, another "Let's force people into low sec" thread. Listen, I think things are just fine as they are. The macroers and isk farmers would just switch to ore, they aren't going into low sec to mine ice. Or switch to mission running. I'm assuming this is your goal, unless getting some pew pew on legit miners trying to make some isk in low sec. Ain't gonna happen m'kay? Does low sec mechanics need tweaking? Yes. It should be a continuation of security, not a high sec - gank sec cliff drop in security. 0.1 should be like 0.4 is now, and 0.4 should be slightly more dangerous than 0.5. And as stated many times, put more good stuff in low sec to draw people from high sec. If a pilot successfully manages to scan down and mine a pocket of gneiss (or ark or bistot for that matter) he'll be 10X more likely to try it again. But back to the subject, no to number one. Legits need it and so do n00bs. Imagine if you'd started playing Eve and the following week they took all ore and ice from high sec and moved it to low sec, and every entry gate had a pirate camp. Most people would leave. And yeah, if they remove ice from high sec, it wouldn't be long before players like you and others would be yelling to have the ore moved too.
Vigilant Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's	Posted - 2008.05.02 23:21:00 - [147] Yeah cross posting from C & P thread 4TW
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.03 05:30:00 - [148] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin 1. Prove it 2. But not high enough of a value that requires you to be playing the game to mine as opposed to running a bot 3.how do you know? 4.Making lowsec/0.0 ores more valuable will not ever match the afk isk and convinience of running a bot. 5. Really because the first few pages of this thread say that if you can mine in lowsec you can mine in 0.0 no problem are you saying there are people that will kill you in 0.0!? Obviously you're a bit obtuse. 1. It has been proven time and time again in games. Perhaps the most infamous example would be Star Wars Galaxies. On November 15th, 2005 Sony Online Entertainment did the third major revamp of SWG. This revamp took the game in a completely different direction trying to force the player base to play in the style the chief developer at the time wanted. Because of that they lost 70% of their subscriber base in 90 days. 2. I don't run bots, never have never will. Don't see the point in it. However if you want to stop the macroers there is a way to do it but it is a way no one's been willing to embrace. You have to eliminate paying for the game with isk. That removes the need for such an industry. 3. Maybe because I'm apparently more observant than you are about human behavior. 4. Possibly not but that's not the issue. The issue is an attempt to get more players to low sec and 0.0. The bots are not ever going to go into unsafe territory. If you move something they'll just switch to something else. You have to rob them of the reason for botting in the first place, the only way to do that is remove the isk for gtcs. 5. Yes you can generally mine in 0.0 if you can in low sec. There is one major problem in 0.0 though. There are not sufficient stations/outposts to use as bases. This makes it very difficult for the area to support even a moderate population, there simply isn't the industrial infrastructure there to support a larger population. Such could be built and built more quickly if most of the 0.0 alliances would abandon the NBSI and adopt a NRDS policy. This would allow more miners and industrials to be able to flourish in 0.0 providing the goods and services needed to supply the combat PVP crowd.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.03 06:04:00 - [149] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin So the moons that keep blowing me up don't exist right? Are you for real? Moons are not blowing people up, Pos Turrets are. Welcome to EvE online btw. I suggest that you read the Beginners guide in Science and Industry forum: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=179069&page=1#7 How to survey When you arrive at the planet, open your scanner and do a 360 degree scan at max km range. Sort the results and look carefully down the list. What you are looking for is a Control Tower. If you see one on the list then you know one of the moons has a Control Tower, therefore it's likely to have defences that will gank you if you warp to it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.03 06:41:00 - [150] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Marcus TheMartin several posts Marcus, you know exactly how untankable is a mining barge or even an exumer against a player driven ship. A pirate can warp in a belt at 100 km, kill the target and warp away before the defenders can engage him effectively (i.e. scrambling and webbing him) and before the barge warp away, especially if the target is ice mining, where stopping the cycle mean losing all the work and the specialized ship is paper thin. In low sec a competent and large defending force can get revenge but can't defend a miner. In 0.0 a competent force will be guarding the gates and can protect the ice miner. So ice mining in low sec is rarely done, and only in those few system that can be secured like 0.0 systems. Removing ice belts from high sec would not move the ice miners in low sec, those interested in getting isk ice mining will enter 0.0 alliances were they can be protected and do their trade there. The others will change activity. How often do you find sniper fit ships taking out barges? with the current way local works you would know well before the offending party even loaded grid barges would be well in warp I would say "As often as they can". Currently they have no target so no interest in fitting sniper ships. As soon as the targets become available they will become common. As already pointed mining ice and docking every 5 minutes mean 0 ice mined. There is no "partial cycle" for ice. Evidently you find that playing the idiot is very fun, but try to reply like you had an active brain and some honesty.

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