EVE Search - Let's start with removing hi sec ice to low sec!

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Let's start with removing hi sec ice to low sec!

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:08:00 - [61] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/05/2008 00:15:14 Originally by: Enkidu Uruksen What's your point? Are you saying that I shouldn't assume CCP knew what the result of these changes would be? Do you think they don't have the risk/reward discussion when they introduce new features? Black Ops Cyno Exploit The Yulai Incident Bacon H-Bot all unintended "features" of ccp development
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin You don't NEED to do lvl 5 missions and lvl 4 Q20 missions when there are readily available alternatives that average only 200k/hr less than the payout of the best highsec missions. The t2 galaxy needs Ice, capship blobbing needs ice, blueprint researching needs ice The t2 galaxy, capship blobbing, blueprint researching will get Ice from 0.0 sec players instead. High-sec players will not risk their ships to pirates if there are any other way to get Isk. And mining ships are even worse ships in pvp than mission ships are, so if High-sec mission runners aren¦t risking their ships for extra Isk why should High-sec miners, that are even more likely to get killed, do?
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Tarminic ... CCP has increased the rewards for non-combat low-sec activities specifically designed to appeal to the industry-minded players (carebears). These improvements have had little success in drawing carebears to low-security space. Therefore I believe that low risk and not high reward is the most important factor for carebears. Therefore the reward for low-sec is irrelevant to high-sec players. If it became valuable enough to make up for the risks (which would be very high), players from 0.0 would utilize them first because they are less risk-adverse. I disagree with this assessment. I think the problem is that perceived risk versus the perceived reward is too small. As an example, say that you have a cruiser that costs 6 million. You know there is an opportunity for a quick 3 million ISK profit in low sec. Would you take that gamble if you thought you would be blown up 60% of the time you tried for the prize? Now if that potential profit was 12 million, I believe most people would at least be willing to take an occasional shot.
Rawne Karrde An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:21:00 - [64] Tarminic has hit the nail on the proverbial head. Its not more reward but less risk that will get "carebears" into low sec. CCP added moon mining to low sec, didn't work. CCP added zydrine to low sec ores, didn't work. CCP added lvl 5 mission to low sec, didn't work. as one can see increasing the low sec reward just has not worked. On the flip side, CCP added sentry guns (if you've played long enough you'd remember when there weren't and how nobody went to low sec.) CCP added warp to zero. These things decreasing risk have seen more people go into low sec than before. It has been suggested that "well if they were a good corp, who prepared and didn't just walk into low sec thinking they'll get rich, and worked together then they'll be fine." This arguement is moot. Those corps who can do just that are far better joining a 0.0 alliance and making even more reward with less risk than low sec grants. I do think the suggestion of increasing sentry gun power a lot has some merit. Why should uber "pirates" have such an easy time in low sec and their such a hard time? With ships like HIC's, cov ops, recons, and scan probes the tools are more in place to require "pirates" to actually have to use their heads and do a little work rather than seeing how many they can gank on a gate.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 02/05/2008 00:06:05 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin by industrial themed additions to lowsec do you mean exploration? I should have said industrial/carebear. Additions to low-sec include, but are not limited to: 1. Exploration content much better than available in high-sec 2. Synthetic booster production 3. Level 5 missions 4. Higher-quality level 4 mission agents 2 and 3 are completely exclusive to low-sec with no noticeable effects. And when people complain about why they suck, the argument is always that they're not rewarding enough for the risk. If you improve the reward to greater than what is in 0.0, all that would happen is that pilots from 0.0 would take them over, not high-sec players. People produce boosters and do lowsec exploration ( to acquire the gas) But since boosters aren't an empire required commodity like ships and modules there is a lack of a market for them. Ice however is a required and if moved to lower security sectors exclusively people will have to either mine it in low sec or 0.0. And if 0.0 pilots come up to reap lowsec rewards the end goal of more people in lowsec is met
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Rawne Karrde Tarminic has hit the nail on the proverbial head. Its not more reward but less risk that will get "carebears" into low sec. CCP added moon mining to low sec, didn't work. CCP added zydrine to low sec ores, didn't work. CCP added lvl 5 mission to low sec, didn't work. Moons are being mined in lowsec Exploration requires "effort" Lvl 4s are soloable
Zantrei Kordisin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:30:00 - [67] Originally by: Shintai One thing you dont want in EvE is highsec or 0.0 to be completely independent of one another. Empire independent of 0.0 yes; however 0.0 should be far more independent than it is (if not completely). _________________________________________________________
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:30:00 - [68] Originally by: Shadow Joy Originally by: Tarminic ... CCP has increased the rewards for non-combat low-sec activities specifically designed to appeal to the industry-minded players (carebears). These improvements have had little success in drawing carebears to low-security space. Therefore I believe that low risk and not high reward is the most important factor for carebears. Therefore the reward for low-sec is irrelevant to high-sec players. If it became valuable enough to make up for the risks (which would be very high), players from 0.0 would utilize them first because they are less risk-adverse. I disagree with this assessment. I think the problem is that perceived risk versus the perceived reward is too small. As an example, say that you have a cruiser that costs 6 million. You know there is an opportunity for a quick 3 million ISK profit in low sec. Would you take that gamble if you thought you would be blown up 60% of the time you tried for the prize? Now if that potential profit was 12 million, I believe most people would at least be willing to take an occasional shot. That's true to an extent, but even if it is true you still have a problem. Carebears, if they go to low-sec, won't stay there. It's one thing to intercept logistics traveling between 0.0 and empire space or someone popping in and out, but the fundamental problems with low-sec will remain as long as people other than pirates and anti-pirates don't live there. That's because even with a MUCH higher reward, the risk - perceived or real - will still be too great. If you crank up the reward to ungodly and levels 0.0 players, who are not risk-adverse, will simply utilize them instead of carebears. The ONLY viable solution is to make low-sec safer for carebears, alone AND in groups. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:33:00 - [69] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin And if 0.0 pilots come up to reap lowsec rewards the end goal of more people in lowsec is met But currently half of EVE players never set foot outside of high sec space (according to the 2nd economic report). Encouraging 0.0 players, who are already a fairly small minority, to move to low-sec doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Marcus TheMartin And if 0.0 pilots come up to reap lowsec rewards the end goal of more people in lowsec is met But currently half of EVE players never set foot outside of high sec space (according to the 2nd economic report). Encouraging 0.0 players, who are already a fairly small minority, to move to low-sec doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:26:00 - [71] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? ---------------- (Forgot to pay my sub, back in a few days! ) Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:30:00 - [72] This thread is about ganking Mackinaws.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Tarminic The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. Can someone just explain WHY this is an actual "problem"? I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people who play in hi-sec need to play in lo-sec. -Grid
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:36:00 - [74] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/05/2008 01:36:08 Originally by: Sim'a Nuk This thread is about ganking Mackinaws. Straw man
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:42:00 - [75] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? Moving ice from highsec would reduce afk mining potential of the required resource and increase its value since the bots and solo players will move to the low end ores. Since Ice is required to run pos's and operate jump drives some one will have to mine it as opposed to ignore it (see lvl5 missions and booster production) adding luxuries to lowsec won't populate lowsec moving necessities to lowsec will populate lowsec
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:52:00 - [76] Edited by: Sim''a Nuk on 02/05/2008 01:54:57 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Straw man I am a woman. And the ice will be mined in 0.0
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Sim'a Nuk Edited by: Sim''a Nuk on 02/05/2008 01:54:57 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Straw man I am a woman. And the ice will be mined in 0.0 there are no women on the internet
Aeo IV Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:07:00 - [78] A major problem with low sec is that their are too many pirates. Everytime a carebear goes to low sec, they get ganked, etc, fairly quickly, and it's a big turn off, before they can even start to say, oh look at how much money I'm making, they're dead. For Miners; First, Mining Barges- major problems with this ship and it's design, it costs as much as a cruiser, takes a week or two to train for, and barely produces any real income, and tanks like a freakin' noob ship! The problem is that mining isn't a very profitable business in high sec, which makes sense, it's low risk, and it should have a low reward. But, because the reward is so low, it's hard to justify losing that ship in low sec. Now, when they get to the Exhumer level, we run into similar problems, A) exhumer costs about the same as a BS, which is pricey when you realize how poor the high sec market for ore is. B) very skill intensive. multiple lvl 5 skills, etc. C) income, again in high sec, is poor, and D) it tanks like a very, very, very, poor cruiser, or maybe a frigate. First, if you want miners to come to low sec, pirates need to stop ganking them on sight, because everytime you do you're just adding to the horror stories that miners tell one another, and it demonizes low sec. Think of it as sustainable hunting. Second, CCP needs to fix the ore/mineral market so that Miners, who mine, don't see buying new mining barges as a unconquerable mountain of time. Third, Better tanks, enough said. I don't care hows it's done, add more med/low slots or raise the resists to insane levels (like 99% resists across the board) and perhaps include natural stabs, or an auto armor regen, or something. Fourth. Remember these are people we're talking about, which means that any long term solution will have to be socially engineered, and include all affected parties. For Mission runners, the answer is simple, up the rewards AND, bring PVP and PVE closer together. A PVE fitted ship should be on par with the same ship fitted for PVP, in terms of PVP threat.
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:07:00 - [79] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Sim'a Nuk Edited by: Sim''a Nuk on 02/05/2008 01:54:57 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Straw man I am a woman. And the ice will be mined in 0.0 there are no women on the internet I can link as well.
Philopoemen Locke Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.05.02 02:17:00 - [80] Originally by: Tarminic 3. Make it easier for anti-pirates to protect carebears from ganking That sounds kind of fun. Possibly give corporations a general concord sec status. Any member in a corp under -3.0 or another doesn't gain the protection form gate guns. This means a non pirate in a pirate corp doesn't have movement restricted but makes him fair game for anti-pies. If the op is aiming at increasing low sec population which I think he is. What about making it so 0.0 alliances have to use low sec pipes more often. The only way you could really do that (thats obvious to me) is by removing cynos in low sec. I doubt anyone wants that.
Rawne Karrde An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:08:00 - [81] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? Moving ice from highsec would reduce afk mining potential of the required resource and increase its value since the bots and solo players will move to the low end ores. Since Ice is required to run pos's and operate jump drives some one will have to mine it as opposed to ignore it (see lvl5 missions and booster production) adding luxuries to lowsec won't populate lowsec moving necessities to lowsec will populate lowsec Any corp that could sustain an ice mining operation in low sec would have the ability to just go to 0.0 and mine better ice there instead. less risk more profit. Hence once again low sec does not get more populated.
Varopriest Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:24:00 - [82] Here's a thought completely, kinda off the main topic. If you want more people in low-sec, how about spawning concord for initiating pirate actions to ship class. Example: .4 no ship larger than frigates .3 no ship larger than cruisers .2 no ship larger than BC's .1 no ship larger than BS's Eliminate bubbles in low-sec, and you now have your risk vs reward. I think most carebears would go to a .4 system knowing that they cannot be attacked by anything larger than a frigate. The pirates would be able to get their kills in groups, and even solo kills by attacking the right individual. But it wouldn't mean an instant death for anyone wanting to go into the system. As it is now, if a carebear wants to face the current odds of a gate camp, they are better off in 0.0. Pirate groups are way to dangerous in the status quo.
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.02 04:56:00 - [83] If the ice leaves hisec, the ice will just become more expensive. Everything that needs ice will become more expensive. The profit for mining it will go up, so the mining fleets entering losec will be guarded by PvP geared battleships and logistics. These same fleets will quickly realise that they can enter nullsec with the blessing of the sovereign power, and face no risk at all. I think what it comes down to is this: people seeking PvP need to move to nullsec and join an alliance.
Dragons Talon	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:06:00 - [84] Quote: There would be no demand for new ships/modules if pirates didn't blow them up. Pirates make the game interesting and create a balance in the eve universe. I would even say Pirates are needed in this game to keep the Eve economy active. 0.0 wars and new players will always create a demand for new ships/mods. Quote: But if there was more money to be made in the lawless parts of town the businessmen would flock there. Nope...its easier to get a low sec pos vrs a high sec, but no one wants the hassle of trying to time the pirates gate camps to refuel it. Quote: You can't really draw a comparison with Eve and real life with this argument. Why not?... you will never see Bill gates in down town seattle after dark by himself. To the OP's points: 1: will do nothing to the macros 2: will not get anyone into low sec to mine it 3: as its been stated, the risk of low sec is HIGHER than going from high sec right to 0.0, and the rewards are far higher in 0.0. Until low sec is as safe as being in 0.0 or safer, not many are going to bother with it, outside of pirates.
Dragons Talon	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:08:00 - [85] Originally by: Gridwalker Originally by: Tarminic The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. Can someone just explain WHY this is an actual "problem"? I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people who play in hi-sec need to play in lo-sec. -Grid There are none, unless you (A) like getting podded, or (B) like pretending to be a pirate.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:34:00 - [86] Originally by: Rawne Karrde Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Marcus TheMartin but this is a thread about moving ice from highsec And I'm arguing that this will have a very small effect in accomplishing the goal of encouraging those in high-sec to base their operations out of low-sec. Isn't that the entire point of moving ice from highsec? Moving ice from highsec would reduce afk mining potential of the required resource and increase its value since the bots and solo players will move to the low end ores. Since Ice is required to run pos's and operate jump drives some one will have to mine it as opposed to ignore it (see lvl5 missions and booster production) adding luxuries to lowsec won't populate lowsec moving necessities to lowsec will populate lowsec Any corp that could sustain an ice mining operation in low sec would have the ability to just go to 0.0 and mine better ice there instead. less risk more profit. Hence once again low sec does not get more populated. If they can get past the entry system Lowsec camps are comparably easier to kill than 0.0 camps and once you get in deep you are in the clear which in a sense applies to 0.0 as well but the key difference between lowsec and 0.0 is that it would take multiple ships to capture your mining operation where as in 0.0 you just need one
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:45:00 - [87] Originally by: Dragons Talon Originally by: Gridwalker Originally by: Tarminic The problem is that there are too many people in high-sec and not enough people in low-sec. Can someone just explain WHY this is an actual "problem"? I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people who play in hi-sec need to play in lo-sec. -Grid There are none, unless you (A) like getting podded, or (B) like pretending to be a pirate. There is no reason because you have everything you need to survive in highsec
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.02 05:49:00 - [88] Originally by: Dragons Talon Quote: There would be no demand for new ships/modules if pirates didn't blow them up. Pirates make the game interesting and create a balance in the eve universe. I would even say Pirates are needed in this game to keep the Eve economy active. 0.0 wars and new players will always create a demand for new ships/mods. Quote: But if there was more money to be made in the lawless parts of town the businessmen would flock there. Nope...its easier to get a low sec pos vrs a high sec, but no one wants the hassle of trying to time the pirates gate camps to refuel it. Quote: You can't really draw a comparison with Eve and real life with this argument. Why not?... you will never see Bill gates in down town seattle after dark by himself. To the OP's points: 1: will do nothing to the macros 2: will not get anyone into low sec to mine it 3: as its been stated, the risk of low sec is HIGHER than going from high sec right to 0.0, and the rewards are far higher in 0.0. Until low sec is as safe as being in 0.0 or safer, not many are going to bother with it, outside of pirates. So you don't want industrialists to make money? So all those moons that have been blowing up my frigs are figments of my imagination because no one has POS's in lowsec? Bill gates doesn't go to shady areas in seattle because he can pay some one to do it for him
Galen Brustar Gallente A-1 Excavations	Posted - 2008.05.02 06:25:00 - [89] Originally by: Rachael Ray Originally by: Yuki Santara This sounds to me like thugs arguing there should be more incentive for businessmen to travel the lawless parts of town, so there is more prey to be robbed. But if there was more money to be made in the lawless parts of town the businessmen would flock there. You can't really draw a comparison with Eve and real life with this argument. Except that there is even more money to be made moving "business" to the third world(0 sec), where there are no regulations and they can get away with anything they want.
Rachael Ray	Posted - 2008.05.02 08:37:00 - [90] Quote: Except that there is even more money to be made moving "business" to the third world(0 sec), where there are no regulations and they can get away with anything they want. True 0.0 offers many opportunities to make money, but you're creating an anology between 0.0 and third world countries is pure asinine. Would you move to Vietnam because of the numerous opportunities to make money there or stay in High-sec USA?

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.