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An inconvenient truth about salvaging

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Johnathan Mar	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:31:00 - [1] At present, salvaging is a no risk, low investment profession that can produce millions of income within literally minutes. A typical mission runnerÆs salvage ship is a destroyer, 4 salvagers, 4 tractor beams, a AB or MWD and maybe some salvage tackle. A destroyer is roughly 500k A quad of salvagers is 96,000 A quad of tractors is 400k A 1mn AB is 2,000 For not even 1 million ISK you have a fully functional salvage ship. Taking the skill into account is an additional 900k which means your total is about or under 1.9 million. Over the course of one week I recorded the stats of my level 4 mission running. For each mission I recorded the agents pay, the bounty of each craft killed and the salvage of each mission and so on. On any given mission Salvage would make up no less then 3.5 million per mission and in several cases made upwards of 12 to 15 million isk in some missions. To salvage each mission varied in time, depending on travel distances and if multiple rooms were present, but the bottom line was it took about 10-15 minutes for each mission. The grand total of my salvaging efforts for the entire week netted me apx. 175 million isk. If you figure that I try to do 5 missions a night that translates to 25 million per day, 5 million per mission or rather 5 million every 10 minutes. A mission runner capable of level 4Æs with a good agent, maxed social and combat skills, can expect to finish a mission in about 1-2 hours for a pay ranging from 8-40 million after 2-3 months of training and acquiring the rank with an NPC corporation to use their best level 4 agent. A properly fit raven costs about 200 million, not counting skills A miner in high sec can expect to make 20 million in 4 hours (personal experience) provided they know exactly what they are doing and are getting top dollar for their ore and can achieve this after about 3-5 months of training for a hulk and mining augmenting gear. A properly fit hulk will cost about 200 million not counting skills. A salvage thief can train for a covert opts frigate, probe launcher, cloaking device, and salvager in about 2 weeks. A properly fit salvage thief ship will cost about 20-25 million. WhatÆs more when compared to these professions the risk reward ratio is horribly unbalanced. The mission runner has to contend with NPC forces that could very well crush his ship, and depending on where he is mission running has to contend with suicide gankers entering his mission. The miner in the hulk has the highest skill requirements out of all the professions and only makes about 20 million a night and only has to worry about the occasional ore thief pirate. A salvage thief on the other hand needs only 2 weeks and about 10 minutes to track down a playerÆs mission area. Assuming the player is not on the ball the thief needs an additional 10 minutes or so to clear out the room of the salvage. In one hour, the thief can in theory amass anywhere from 9 to 45 million isk In 4 hours the thief can make roughly 180 million isk. In one week, assuming 7 days at 4 hours a day, the thief can make 1,260,000,000 isk. In one month, assuming the same measurements are true consistently, the thief can make 5,040,000,000.
Johnathan Mar	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Johnathan Mar on 04/05/2008 00:32:42 Edited by: Johnathan Mar on 04/05/2008 00:32:09 In one month, a thief can make over 5 billion in isk, at no risk to himself as current game mechanics state that salvage belongs to the salvager. This is dangerous! Why is this dangerous? Simple, isk farmers. The current system allows isk farmers to make literally billions in the space of one subscription month in high sec in a low cost, no risk venture. WhatÆs more, all a isk farmer needs is a passing name. When he enters a mission area and if he is seen, the odds of a typical player believing him to be a isk miner instead of a actual player are very slim. Now, in my last example, I give the math that at 4 hours a day 7 days a week for one month a player can amass over 5 billion. Well now lets assume the isk farmer is putting in 8 hour days. That 5 billion 40 million of monthly income sky rockets to 10,080,000,000 a month, or 336,000,000 isk every 8 hours, and thatÆs assuming the isk farmer isnÆt putting in more time such as 12 or 16 hour days. The facts are this: It costs a mission running player over 200 in equipment alone, weeks of mission grinding and millions in isk for training books to hope to make 1.5 billion a month, assuming he can keep his salvage and sells the good module loot. It costs a miner 200 in equipment, months of training, millions of isk spent in training books to hope to make over half a billion a month. A isk thief needs only 2 weeks, 20 million, and be in a highly populated high sec area to make 5 billion with no risk to himself, his equipment or anything else. A Isk farmer needs only 2 weeks, 20 million, be in a highly populated high sec area, a passable name and anywhere from 4, 8, 12 or 16 hours a day to get a monthly income of 5, 10 billion or more. WhatÆs more unlike his mission and mining cousins, he can do so safely without interference from concord, players or even the devs until they see the massive isk transfer. SALVAGING MUST RECEIVE AN IMMDEIATE REVAMP TO EITHER BRING IT IN LINE WITH THE MAJOR PROFESSIONS FOR THE TIME AND EFFORT THAT IS PUT INTO IT!
Knighted Philosopher Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:45:00 - [3] Very interesting... Now, it sounds so attractive to be a farmer, for oneself?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:46:00 - [4] Lol @ OP. I love new players.
Johnathan Mar	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:51:00 - [5] Edited by: Johnathan Mar on 04/05/2008 00:52:21 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Lol @ OP. I love new players. If you dont believe me do the math yourself. Whats more if I am a new player and I figured it out how long do you think some of the isk farmers have been at it? How -many- do you think are at it? Remember this math is only the output of 1 individual, how many isk farmers does eve have? Even if my figures are absolutely ideal, a isk farmer would still be making several billion isk a month in a low investment no risk profession.
z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.04 00:57:00 - [6] Edited by: z0de on 04/05/2008 00:57:34 What about the time and cost involved in finding missions to salvage?
Johnathan Mar	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:01:00 - [7] Originally by: z0de Edited by: z0de on 04/05/2008 00:57:34 What about the time and cost involved in finding missions to salvage? A friend of mine who routinely uses probes to scan out players in missions in low sec says it takes him about 10 minutes or so and he admits that his skills are crap for such things.
Guillome Renard Gallente Access Services	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Johnathan Mar or rather 5 million every 10 minutes. This is incorrect. The time spent probing out mission runners in progress, and then any interruptions while doing so (the MR bails and you get aggro, &c.) should be part of the calculation for pay over time frame. If it really was 5M every ten minutes, then 8 hours of play would earn you 1.2B per week, which isn't possible. Your collected data is also incorrect a claim jumper (as I call them) has to use a fast ship with no tractors as they can't tractor wrecks they didn't make. Also? Tractors for 100k?! Where do you shop? They cost 1M in material costs. Did you even look at market prices when you made this? your point about the cost of a salvage rig is invalid for other reasons - but still, if you're going to make an argument you should do more careful research. Your methods invalidate your findings, which is why you won't be listened to. My issue with salvage is that it makes mission running so much more profitable than any other activity that it turns EVE into a one-path game. Once you're into L4 solo you've basically won the game. I think mission kills shouldn't yield wrecks - only belt rats and PvP kills. That'd also fix your concerns about isk farming.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:05:00 - [9] Or the annoyance factor of working in lag central? Even better, competeing with the other 50 ninja salvagers out there in your system?
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:09:00 - [10] Johnathan, you are wrong completely in every way... Theorycrafting is ineffective FYI.
z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Johnathan Mar Originally by: z0de Edited by: z0de on 04/05/2008 00:57:34 What about the time and cost involved in finding missions to salvage? A friend of mine who routinely uses probes to scan out players in missions in low sec says it takes him about 10 minutes or so and he admits that his skills are crap for such things. Does he probe in a destroyer? Also if your missioning in lowsec you've got more to worry about than salvage theft :P
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:14:00 - [12] I'm totally going to take up this occupation. I'm even sending myself an evemail with your name (for my locator agent). Muahahahahahaha! -Liang
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:17:00 - [13] you realise, that the simple way to combat this kind of thing, is to use a ship that CCP put in the game recently. It's called the Marauder. It will allow a lvl 4 mission runner to run his mission, killing everything in the mission while at the SAME TIME tractoring all the wrecks, and looting/salvageing them. They kill just as fast as your typical raven. They hold 2x as much in the cargo bay, and they can tank better then your average raven. Sure the ninja salvager might be able to get a few of them, but they won't get the whole mission. Boom. Problem solved. No more ninja salvagers. and all it takes is a few more months of training, and double the investment in your mission running ship.
Dark 'Shadow Krispy Corp LLC	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:32:00 - [14] The op's post is so idiotic its not even funny. Besides the fact that you have no clue what anything cost, like the fact that you can fully fit a hulk for 115m easily, not the 200m you said, and make 12m an hour easy just mining veldspar and selling to buy orders, mission running is more in the area of 20m an hour, and if you have any good skills you can finish about three missions an hour not counting salvaging. And while salvage stealing can get you some isk it can hardly get you consistent isk like you can straight up running missions for yourself or mining.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:34:00 - [15] More people salvaging = more salvage on the market = flooded market = salvage value drops = ....less ISK for that activity. It will therefore self correct over time. No need for panic. C.
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:38:00 - [16] First, I don't believe it takes you only 15 minutes to salvage a mission. It takes me far longer to salvage most missions than to do them, and I can use tractors on the wrecks. If the wrecks don't belong to you, you can't tractor them. So, I call BS on your entire premise.
Guillome Renard Gallente Access Services	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Toria Nynys First, I don't believe it takes you only 15 minutes to salvage a mission. It takes me far longer to salvage most missions than to do them, and I can use tractors on the wrecks. If the wrecks don't belong to you, you can't tractor them. So, I call BS on your entire premise. Actually 10-15 minutes is about right. The trick? Bunch all of your kills up into a 20km sphere. It adds a little to the mission time, but it makes salvaging a breeze.
Had Enough	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:47:00 - [18] Edited by: Had Enough on 04/05/2008 01:52:36 Are you trying to say that people being able to earn isk is somehow wrong? Should CCP nerf anything that people can use to make isk just because isk farmers may or may not use it? You have no proof isk farmers are using it anyway it's all just baseless speculation. Your numbers don't add up, I suggest you go ninja salvaging and then display the results of your findings and then maybe people will take you more seriously. At the moment your calculations are based on hear say and speculation. I think level 4 mission runners make more isk by ignoring the salvage also so that makes your whole argument look somewhat out of touch with reality.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:48:00 - [19] Cool. Im gonna use this to supplement my pvp income
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 01:59:00 - [20] Salvage thief career ftw.
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:03:00 - [21] Conclusion: rigs are overpriced.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:05:00 - [22] As a NINJA SALVAGER, not a salvage thief thank you very much, I encourage any who is interested to try it yourself, You will see the isk per hours stated by the OP are extremely exaggerated. I sit down for about 4 hours and in the best of circumstances (lots of hits, can't salvage them fast enough) I net about 5 to 12m in an hour. More times than not it is not such a feast. Majority of the time I just make around 4 to 8m in an hour. And I got damn good scanning/salvaging skills and rigs on the ships.
Rat XIII 5punkorp	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:05:00 - [23] The extent at which people care about this subject is interesting. Personally I just like to play the ******* game rather than write essays about it.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:08:00 - [24] Mission in lowsec then you can shoot them
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Mission in lowsec then you can shoot them
Lo3d3R MAFIA	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Lo3d3R on 04/05/2008 02:14:41 Tbh, it is a flaw that you cannot shoot them or a failed intended mechanic, and they know it. It's can stealing like in the old days all over again, that got fixed after a 'while'. Writing a big boohoo story about it is another thing, I mean seriously how many times does it actually happen.
Dotard Minmatar Eternal Guardians Corp. The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:17:00 - [27] Eight out of ten times I give the runners that option of shooting me. I loot the wrecks as I salvage them. Sad to report I have not been shot at yet. Even did it to a gang of 3 runners, a BS and 2 cruisers all in the same corp. Nothing. shrugs
Lo3d3R MAFIA	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm totally going to take up this occupation. I'm even sending myself an evemail with your name (for my locator agent). Muahahahahahaha! -Liang I lolled
Wayson Minmatar Trans Nebula Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.04 02:24:00 - [29] This thread is frigging awesome. Especially where he says that a Hulk miner has the highest skill requirements of any profession, and where he claims that a ninja salvager can make 1.26 billion a week. Where do I sign up to play your version of EVE, sir?
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.04 03:02:00 - [30] Are you trying to say you're Al Gore?

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