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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!
It's like surviving a nuke... sure, you can survive it during the blast, but you're gonna die a horrible death because of radiation poisoning anyway. So make the titans shoot DDDs in a few blasts, so they clean EVERYTHING, not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans.
Point is, if a titan comes in warp away or die. Yes, I DO know what I just said. BUT, when firing the DDD the titan should either use up an expensive piece of ammo or the whole DDD weapon. Why? If it destroys EVERYTHING it must somehow be penalized. Dunno, maybe the ammo should cost a few bill, like 2 bill per blast or smth. That would make titans good for the bigger alliances, it would make building a massive army of titans pointless as you couldn't keep up with the ammo usage, and it would make titans what they were supposed to be. Doomcarriers.
2 bil is utter chump change for the ability to annihilate everything regardless of size or tank.
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Andrest Disch
Amarr Debitum Naturae Wrath.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!
It's like surviving a nuke... sure, you can survive it during the blast, but you're gonna die a horrible death because of radiation poisoning anyway. So make the titans shoot DDDs in a few blasts, so they clean EVERYTHING, not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans.
Point is, if a titan comes in warp away or die. Yes, I DO know what I just said. BUT, when firing the DDD the titan should either use up an expensive piece of ammo or the whole DDD weapon. Why? If it destroys EVERYTHING it must somehow be penalized. Dunno, maybe the ammo should cost a few bill, like 2 bill per blast or smth. That would make titans good for the bigger alliances, it would make building a massive army of titans pointless as you couldn't keep up with the ammo usage, and it would make titans what they were supposed to be. Doomcarriers.
What about friendly titans caught in its blast? Friendly super capitals?
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Jalaluddin Haqqani
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:24:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!
As long as nothing but the damage was changed, I am in favor of this plan. The titan's DD hits itself. This would make the DD a final act of desperation, or a self-sacrifice for the glory of its empire.
If the titan pilot wishes to Martyr himself in the name of his cause, I see no problem with this.
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Borsek's Clone
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Andrest Disch
What about friendly titans caught in its blast? Friendly super capitals?
The same as now, they die. As I said, titans survive it, any other ship doesn't
/quote me not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans. /end quote me
Ok, whatever, the amount of ISK would be determined and thoroughly tested and balanced by CCP, not me. I was just throwing a number out there.
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Lsf
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone
Originally by: Andrest Disch
What about friendly titans caught in its blast? Friendly super capitals?
The same as now, they die. As I said, titans survive it, any other ship doesn't
/quote me not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans. /end quote me
Ok, whatever, the amount of ISK would be determined and thoroughly tested and balanced by CCP, not me. I was just throwing a number out there.
No amount of isk would balance it. It is a terrible idea.
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Borsek's Clone
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jalaluddin Haqqani
As long as nothing but the damage was changed, I am in favor of this plan. The titan's DD hits itself. This would make the DD a final act of desperation, or a self-sacrifice for the glory of its empire.
If the titan pilot wishes to Martyr himself in the name of his cause, I see no problem with this.
Hmm... maybe add this to every titan. Like this:
A titan has a bunch of supercap waepons to destroy capitals and supercaps (also other titans) and say... all the other crap such ships have, clone vat bay, jump bridge, whatever.
a) Once it gets to say... X% (X=50, 25, 10 or whatever, determined by CCP) structure, it automatically starts the suicide sequence, that initiates in X amount of time, which may or may not be enought for the other fleet to finish it off. If the fleet kills it, it just dies, becomes a wreck and that's it. If they don't kill it, it blows and destroys everything on the grid/in the system/whatever, big boom anyway.
b) OOOOR, the titan's pilot can "push the button" and blow the titan, instantly killing himself (podding) and everyone else on the grid/system/whatever, big boom anyway :P.
Of course, this blast would even kill other titans/POSes/planets/stars :P
Arr, thread stolen!
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:34:00 -
[37]
Doomsday is fine as it is now. Don't fix what isn't broken.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:36:00 -
[38]
I wonder how long it will take you to run away crying this time Prism X.
The fact that you nerfed titans several times already proves that you didn't think it through properly before introducing it.
1. You removed the DD through a cyno.
2. You introduced HICtors with a specific method to scramble supercapitals.
3. You made titans unable to jump out of system within 10 mins after DDing.
So with that the fact that you didn't think titans through properly is sufficiently proven I'd say. The only question is, is whether you're finished now 'thinking it through properly' or whether you need more changes before it actually 'thought out properly'.
Personally I am pretty sure we'll see a few more titan nerfs in the coming months/years, depending on how fast they get built.
So how about a little wager, I am saying there will be another titan nerf in the next 12 months. I wager 500 million ISK, offer only valid for Mr. Prism X. Care to take that bet?
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:38:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 05/05/2008 20:34:41
Originally by: Winterblink Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.
Gallente <-> Caldari Amarr <-> Minmatar
*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)
Actually that'd be a sweet bonus to add to flagships based on the hulls of T2 Tier3 Battleships...
... hmmmm.
Ahhh, flagships brought to the fore again. And I agree. Definitely something I would endore/love to see.
Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:40:00 -
[40]
Just to clarify, with you I mean CCP. Not you personally Prism X
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 05/05/2008 20:34:41
Originally by: Winterblink Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.
Gallente <-> Caldari Amarr <-> Minmatar
*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)
Actually that'd be a sweet bonus to add to flagships based on the hulls of T2 Tier3 Battleships...
... hmmmm.
dammit you guys are stealing teh my ideas!!!!
first got the idea with the whole rorqual launching a pos sitting in the pos and using gang links/compression then found out that gang links only worked on grid. and hey why not make a 20km hardened bubble. sit in the belts and just mine away happy. hostile gang comes in and well you got time to warp out.
then the titan whines came and hey mini 20km pos bubble, sit at the cyno jammer and just pound on it. stick you tech 2 kanhid torp bs with a bubble and your gang kicking the crap outta the cyno jammer.
the question is how much hp should it have, was thinking a few dd worth of damage, thats what 70k something damage per hit? but one dd worth of damage can be done by a fleet of bs in a rather short period of time.
although fleet bs to take it down followed by dd
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Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Malachon Draco I wonder how long it will take you to run away crying this time Prism X.
The fact that you nerfed titans several times already proves that you didn't think it through properly before introducing it.
1. You removed the DD through a cyno.
2. You introduced HICtors with a specific method to scramble supercapitals.
3. You made titans unable to jump out of system within 10 mins after DDing.
So with that the fact that you didn't think titans through properly is sufficiently proven I'd say. The only question is, is whether you're finished now 'thinking it through properly' or whether you need more changes before it actually 'thought out properly'.
Personally I am pretty sure we'll see a few more titan nerfs in the coming months/years, depending on how fast they get built.
So how about a little wager, I am saying there will be another titan nerf in the next 12 months. I wager 500 million ISK, offer only valid for Mr. Prism X. Care to take that bet?
You said what I was going to much better.
The problem is proliferation, not the doomsday itself. James scenario of a group of 20ish titans (theorycraft the number yourself) to destroy a capfleet is coming faster than most people, CCP included I bet, think.
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Fitz Chivalry
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:51:00 -
[43]
Titan to a dread should be as MS is to a carrier.
It should be an uber Dreadnaught that does loads more damamge, and can take more damage, can 1 shot a BS and maybe has some other abilities around mobile station type facilities, but it should not have a DD device.
The DD device is the worst, most poorly thought out thing in the game (and that includes POS).
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:54:00 -
[44]
The DDD as a swarm killing device is yet another factor pushing fleet combat towards massive concentrations of large ships.
The idea that all pilots who are either new players or simply prefer smaller ship classes should be killed in a single blast after 1-3hrs forming up and getting there is.. well kinda sad.
The idea of adding a concentrated form of the DDD, much like that used by the Jove in Theodicy has been bounced around a lot and I've always put forward the idea of adding a script to the device to allow this kind of functionality possibly alongside turret bonuses to make it a real anti-capital/POS ship.
I've come to realize I was wrong with this suggestion, the DDD as it is marginalizes far too many ship types and player preferences in fleet warfare. I agree with the OP, the DDD blast should be removed, the push should be towards making people bring smaller ship classes along in fleet, not bringing a single ship to counter enemy support. I'd like to see the "AoE" DDD removed, the "Focused" DDD added, and titan bonuses tweaked to make these ships cause other capital pilots to soil their pods.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Prism X Prism X's opinions are in no way related to CCP's internal opinion. He is neither a game balancer nor a Game Designer
That is pretty good because i thought you just said "olol t1 goonies fly frigates"
Now on to the real post after getting past your personal attack on my corporation.
Prism, have you [or the game design department?] ever studied nuclear war and what it does to wars? The world has dedicated many years playing games to figure out just what happens when you introduce massive "frigate killers" into existence. And the end result was "less war". The end result is "less war" because the costs of initiating war increases.
I don't care how much you or the design team want to believe that these things are good for the game. They are not. They increase the buy in for fight and increasing the buy in for a fight makes fights larger. With one titan you not only need a massive fleet to fight you need a massive fleet in reserve in case the first gets blown up. With 3 titans you need 3 in reserve. With 12 you're just screwed.
Now, it may be just me. But i believe that in a primarily PvP game massive mechanics used by the old to prevent the new from attacking them is simply bad form.
And lets get another thing straight. These ships are not "frigate killers". They do some 60k damage which puts them square in the range of battleship/battlecruiser and below killer.
Vote Goumindong for CSM http://myeve.eve-online.com/council/vot |
Nicho Void
Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:57:00 -
[46]
Surprisingly, I'm on board with the OP. +1 for the focused beam of death.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler We won't laugh at you... to your face...
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 21:57:00 -
[47]
In order to add a little constructive thought to my first reaction, this is what I see as the problem.
A Titan should be an enhancement to a fleet, not be a complete replacement of the fleet. Already titans make a large part of the fleet (both of the fleet with the titan as its opponent) obsolete. A conventional fleet with the titan is relegated to a support fleet to keep the titan alive in case it gets cornered, or to be bait to get the other fleet to fight so the fleet can warp out when the titan DDs.
What you need is the titan to be the ultimate support to a fleet. Something you really love to have on your side. There are two relatively easy ways to do this.
1. Make it enhance the ability of the fleet it is leading. Either give it superior versions of the racial command ship bonuses, or even more advanced ones. I could imagine a blanket bonus to sensor strength, or perhaps tracking and damage of 25% for each ship in the fleet with a titan to be reasonable.
2. Make it the ultimate logistical tool. A titan should be able to carry a whole fleet of battleships with it to resupply a fleet. Personally I'd put the ship hangar size at the point where it could hold 100 fitted battleships. It should also be able to deploy a full set of deathstar POS, so it should have a cargobay of 3-5 million M3.
If you change a titan in this way, you make it a big bonus to have along as a fleet, and worthy of its investment. But it in no way replaces the rest of the fleet in terms of combat capability.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:02:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 05/05/2008 22:07:11
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Lord WarATron Perhaps the solution is to use small numbers of high quality ships to take on titans.
It wouldn't work against an alert opposant, and you know it. It's like all the fancy theorycrafting about having a second fleet to assault a titan after the first one absorb the doomsday. It sound good on paper, but anyone trying it is going to be spanked.
Please look up the last titan we killed, which was in NOL. Seem your comments about this being theorycraft turn out to be practical reality in the battlefield. Also note how Smaller numbers of high quality ships worked well there.
And do remember most hics can double/tripple doomsday tank if you use a High Quality fit insted of comedy stuff. --
Billion Isk Mission |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:05:00 -
[49]
PrismX, since you're the DB person.... can you check if any titan ingame has a gun fitted? (awesome bonus that 5-10%, what were you guys thinking?) And please point him out so we can all laugh at him Boink! |
Asteroid Bandit
NOPHEX PRISIM
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:11:00 -
[50]
Shot in the dark here but how about a script.
DDD Blast script - DD the way it is now
DDD Focus script - DD fires a concentrated shot for more damage at a single target
Lower the recharge time and lower the damage.
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Valan
The Fated Odyssey.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:13:00 -
[51]
Hurry up with the cloak change so you can find the buggers.
The only way to catch one at the moment is if the pilot makes a mistake or you do a back stab.
Shouldn't be able to cloak a small planet anyway.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Atomos Darksun
Infortunatus Eventus
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:15:00 -
[52]
The problem is not in a titan itself; it's when you get multiple titans to nuke a single grid and instapop whole fleets, even doing tons of damage to capitals.
Limit the number of doomsdays that can be activated on a single grid. Only x number of DD's can be fired within y number of minutes on a single grid.
Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...
Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:23:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Malachon Draco In order to add a little constructive thought to my first reaction, this is what I see as the problem.
A Titan should be an enhancement to a fleet, not be a complete replacement of the fleet. Already titans make a large part of the fleet (both of the fleet with the titan as its opponent) obsolete. A conventional fleet with the titan is relegated to a support fleet to keep the titan alive in case it gets cornered, or to be bait to get the other fleet to fight so the fleet can warp out when the titan DDs.
What you need is the titan to be the ultimate support to a fleet. Something you really love to have on your side. There are two relatively easy ways to do this.
1. Make it enhance the ability of the fleet it is leading. Either give it superior versions of the racial command ship bonuses, or even more advanced ones. I could imagine a blanket bonus to sensor strength, or perhaps tracking and damage of 25% for each ship in the fleet with a titan to be reasonable.
2. Make it the ultimate logistical tool. A titan should be able to carry a whole fleet of battleships with it to resupply a fleet. Personally I'd put the ship hangar size at the point where it could hold 100 fitted battleships. It should also be able to deploy a full set of deathstar POS, so it should have a cargobay of 3-5 million M3.
If you change a titan in this way, you make it a big bonus to have along as a fleet, and worthy of its investment. But it in no way replaces the rest of the fleet in terms of combat capability.
heh that was one of my original thoughts on what a titan should do. a big damn mobile station. with some sort of offensive capabilities at least. I must admit the DD is pretty pimp, but 10 at once is just
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:26:00 -
[54]
dumb question incoming, and not to go too far off topic but..
what happens when a titan pilot overheats his dd??
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Finger Licking
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!
It's like surviving a nuke... sure, you can survive it during the blast, but you're gonna die a horrible death because of radiation poisoning anyway. So make the titans shoot DDDs in a few blasts, so they clean EVERYTHING, not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans.
Point is, if a titan comes in warp away or die. Yes, I DO know what I just said. BUT, when firing the DDD the titan should either use up an expensive piece of ammo or the whole DDD weapon. Why? If it destroys EVERYTHING it must somehow be penalized. Dunno, maybe the ammo should cost a few bill, like 2 bill per blast or smth. That would make titans good for the bigger alliances, it would make building a massive army of titans pointless as you couldn't keep up with the ammo usage, and it would make titans what they were supposed to be. Doomcarriers.
I think I would have to agree with this poster. Doomsday isn't a term that should mean "only if you are in a little ship". A Doomsday should never be tankable by anything less than a Dread in Siege mode...or another Titan...both of which would need to be in good health PRIOR to the blast. CCP, you took away the Remote DD, you should bump up the damage, significantly....and give the DD another (or all), secondary damage type that does 75% (or 50% if all types) of the primary type's base damage. It should be something that totally wipes the floor.
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cyberdog
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:38:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Borsek's Clone Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!
It's like surviving a nuke... sure, you can survive it during the blast, but you're gonna die a horrible death because of radiation poisoning anyway. So make the titans shoot DDDs in a few blasts, so they clean EVERYTHING, not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans.
Point is, if a titan comes in warp away or die. Yes, I DO know what I just said. BUT, when firing the DDD the titan should either use up an expensive piece of ammo or the whole DDD weapon. Why? If it destroys EVERYTHING it must somehow be penalized. Dunno, maybe the ammo should cost a few bill, like 2 bill per blast or smth. That would make titans good for the bigger alliances, it would make building a massive army of titans pointless as you couldn't keep up with the ammo usage, and it would make titans what they were supposed to be. Doomcarriers.
I don't perticullary smack too often, but when you have spent long enough in 0.0 and have experianced capital warfare, come back and re-word that post.
(Obvious troll is obvious?)
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:46:00 -
[57]
Good post by James 315 and good post by Goumindong.
Originally by: James 315 Instead of seeing the grand titan surrounded by its support fleet, titans must go out alone so they can doomsday without hurting allied ships. And then they run away to hide. It is an absurd spectacle. The doomsday is an embarrassment to a game which prides itself on fine-tuning each module, the number of slots and damage resistances to every ship.
I find this to be quite sad, as this is what it is. It's like a terrible game of musical warp-out chairs where fleets run away from titans instead of fighting. I find it pretty lame.
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:47:00 -
[58]
Super-caps are the only ship types without role descriptions. In place of role descriptions, they have fan-fiction, a verse out of a religious text, or a speech.
The doomsday is (or should be) an embarrassment to the module designers though. Its evidence of carelessness. And they proved it with the massive DDD nerf. The nerf that was absolutely huge, yet not enough.
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2008.05.05 22:53:00 -
[59]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 05/05/2008 22:53:12
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: CCP Prism X Prism X's opinions are in no way related to CCP's internal opinion. He is neither a game balancer nor a Game Designer
stuff
Oh come on now. I congratulated him on a well written post. Admitted my ignorance in the field of balancing. Added my own take on his suggestion which would be the nuke killer you want. Then disagreed with how he reached his conclusion through the presented logic. So you imply I'm bashing your Alliance and ask me about how much we've studied nuclear war?
I've said it time and over again that I like the GoonSwarm! Every good story needs a good antagonist, amongst other reasons. There's nothing wrong with it! I'm crying already! By the gods man, what do you expect of me?
~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Diek Ran
Amarr Autonums
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Posted - 2008.05.05 23:06:00 -
[60]
Originally by: CCP Prism X ...I like the GoonSwarm!
Scandalous!
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