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The Solution to the Titan Problem

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Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:28:00 - [91] Originally by: Erik Amirault Some point people seem to keep missing. 1. The game can't handle titans Doomsdays as it is (not even one in large battles). If I had to guess, I would say the overwhelming majority of titan kills could have been avoided if the game were capable of allowing players to warp off grid when a titan appears. Most of the time this is not possible. CCP doesn't seem to recognize this because a few players have miraculously lagless gameplay in such situations whereas the overwhelming majority of players do not. 2. The problem isn't one titan or two titans but multiple overlapping titans. not...its not the titans DD that causes the lag...its either his 500 buddy's with fighters deployed killin off the the 500 guys with more fighters killing the titan. the real cause to cap warefare lag is fighters (which btw iam not complaing about) I have been on a many of gatecamp when a cyno appears out of nowhere...and everyting goes dark...and i have got out every time...why, because there was no carriers with fighters boggin down the node/grid
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:32:00 - [92] Originally by: Billy Merc Originally by: Erik Amirault Some point people seem to keep missing. 1. The game can't handle titans Doomsdays as it is (not even one in large battles). If I had to guess, I would say the overwhelming majority of titan kills could have been avoided if the game were capable of allowing players to warp off grid when a titan appears. Most of the time this is not possible. CCP doesn't seem to recognize this because a few players have miraculously lagless gameplay in such situations whereas the overwhelming majority of players do not. 2. The problem isn't one titan or two titans but multiple overlapping titans. not...its not the titans DD that causes the lag...its either his 500 buddy's with fighters deployed killin off the the 500 guys with more fighters killing the titan. the real cause to cap warefare lag is fighters (which btw iam not complaing about) I have been on a many of gatecamp when a cyno appears out of nowhere...and everyting goes dark...and i have got out every time...why, because there was no carriers with fighters boggin down the node/grid Don't respond to my posts if you're going to be purposely obtuse. I can point to a recent DD where we had 100 on the gate and BoB's 35-45 player gatecamp warped off. Some people (maybe 30) jumped into system, Shrike uncloaked and DD'd and there was absolutely no way to warp out. None, zero zip. DD tanks don't work if you can't activate your modules.
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:34:00 - [93] Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 04:34:26 HURR IT WAS THE FIGHTERS I AM BILLY MERC TAKE ME SERIOUSLY I AM A SMART GUY.* Shut up billy merc. *there were not fighters
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:43:00 - [94] Originally by: Erik Amirault Originally by: Billy Merc Originally by: Erik Amirault Some point people seem to keep missing. 1. The game can't handle titans Doomsdays as it is (not even one in large battles). If I had to guess, I would say the overwhelming majority of titan kills could have been avoided if the game were capable of allowing players to warp off grid when a titan appears. Most of the time this is not possible. CCP doesn't seem to recognize this because a few players have miraculously lagless gameplay in such situations whereas the overwhelming majority of players do not. 2. The problem isn't one titan or two titans but multiple overlapping titans. not...its not the titans DD that causes the lag...its either his 500 buddy's with fighters deployed killin off the the 500 guys with more fighters killing the titan. the real cause to cap warefare lag is fighters (which btw iam not complaing about) I have been on a many of gatecamp when a cyno appears out of nowhere...and everyting goes dark...and i have got out every time...why, because there was no carriers with fighters boggin down the node/grid Don't respond to my posts if you're going to be purposely obtuse. I can point to a recent DD where we had 100 on the gate and BoB's 35-45 player gatecamp warped off. Some people (maybe 30) jumped into system, Shrike uncloaked and DD'd and there was absolutely no way to warp out. None, zero zip. DD tanks don't work if you can't activate your modules. obtuse...eh... can u point to any other examples of not escaping ??? cause i can give you about 3 or 4 examples of when i have gotten away whilst there was not other caps on the field...THAT said...i have had plenty of deaths from lag when caps (ie specificly carriers , MS's) have been out with fighters deployed..dd fire, spam gtfo...death... My point is carriers / MS's are far worse offenders that titan DD's in regards to lag.... "Some people (maybe 30) jumped into system" when players jump into the system...is the best time to DD because there is going to be extra lag due to loading.. bob used this to there advantage...and why shouldnt they ??
Billy Merc Amarr Pilots Of Honour Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:44:00 - [95] Originally by: Erik Amirault Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 04:35:50 Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 04:34:26 HURR IT WAS THE FIGHTERS I AM BILLY MERC TAKE ME SERIOUSLY I AM A SMART GUY.* Shut up billy merc. *there were no fighters Gotta love all that editing huh
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:48:00 - [96] Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 04:49:08 Billy Merc, I will say this slowly for you. I don't disagree that lag from capitals and fighters is a problem [this thread actually addresses that in a way by altering titans]. This thread is about the problems related to titans but not just titans, multiple titans. One major problem is that where titans are deployed strategically in battle there are almost always hundreds of pilots between both sides. Lag is almost always an issue. When dealing with MULTIPLE OVERLAPPING TITANS the lag becomes worse. These are the facts of life. If you want a game balanced around actual combat then you have to consider the impact of lag and unbalanced game mechanics (i.e. doomsdays). You are not but that's because you don't face such issues directly and so you just don't give a ****.
Merissa Keyes	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:53:00 - [97] Edited by: Merissa Keyes on 06/05/2008 04:53:52 sry wrong char post upcoming in main
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 04:54:00 - [98] The more GoonSwarm posts the more obvious it becomes they are upset that they can't beat BoB due to bob having multiple Titans which destroy your whole fleets. Mostly your complaints would simply change the nature of the game to favor Goon's war against BoB. Of course I am not adverse to having some new features implemented such as the following... Ask CCP that they implant a debuff that prevents multiple DD firings in the same system and explain it as it could have an adverse effect on space/time. But the problem isn't that a DD can destroy whole fleets no matter ship size. Probably 10 minute timer between DD shots fired into the same system Although I like the idea of a titan being able to single out ships and fire or perhaps put a mode on the titan to switch between a fleet setting where a titan can destroy single ships (probably BS and up or just Capitals) but is able to fire maybe 1ce every dunno 5-10 minutes or so? and perhaps in this mode the titan has a buff of some kind. Then you have the normal DD mode which can destroy whole fleets but can only b fired once every hour and only one can be fired inside the same system every 10 mintues. That would work to help tone down Chain DD firings and add a new fleet type usage of a Titan while leaving the DD as a fleet killer still there.
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:02:00 - [99] Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 05:04:19 Originally by: Tyber Raine The more GoonSwarm posts the more obvious it becomes they are upset that they can't beat BoB due to bob having multiple Titans which destroy your whole fleets. Mostly your complaints would simply change the nature of the game to favor Goon's war against BoB. Of course I am not adverse to having some new features implemented such as the following... Ask CCP that they implant a debuff that prevents multiple DD firings in the same system and explain it as it could have an adverse effect on space/time. But the problem isn't that a DD can destroy whole fleets no matter ship size. Probably 10 minute timer between DD shots fired into the same system Although I like the idea of a titan being able to single out ships and fire or perhaps put a mode on the titan to switch between a fleet setting where a titan can destroy single ships (probably BS and up or just Capitals) but is able to fire maybe 1ce every dunno 5-10 minutes or so? and perhaps in this mode the titan has a buff of some kind. Then you have the normal DD mode which can destroy whole fleets but can only b fired once every hour and only one can be fired inside the same system every 10 mintues. That would work to help tone down Chain DD firings and add a new fleet type usage of a Titan while leaving the DD as a fleet killer still there. I'll bite. First, GS has the most experience fighting against multiple titans of any alliance in the game. Second, GS is the only alliance in the game that I think is capable of standing up against multiple titans, massive capital fleets and high-sp subcapital fleets. We do it through our ethic of 'eh, losses are funny, let's keep pushing.' I'm sure your alliance would last all of 2 days against similar fleets and that's because they'd have to wait for the reinforced timers on your POSes. Third, a large reason why BoB was able to take a lot of space and push us back to 77s was because titans were overpowered. After being nerfed BoB realized they didn't have the strength to defend their territory and they retreated. Since then they have seen how multiple titans can influence a war in similar ways to remote detonating DD's. They are now "strong" again because of that. In sum, BoB has benefitted most from titans through their broken space, years of existence as an alliance and other reasons as well. GS has faced them more than anyone else. Therefore of course it will seem like this is a GS versus BoB issue. When BoB decides to come after your mid-size or large alliance with such tools then you'll post about it as well. We're trying to nip this in the bud before it gets out of control because this is what alliances are going to do as they hunker down into their home space through sovereignty changes of recent patches.
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:22:00 - [100] I more worried about GoonSwarm making moves near Triumvirate space in Pure Blind than BoB. You guys have BoB bottled up in Delve away from everyone else. I don't even expect BoB to win in the slightest. You have a huge manpower advantage and your tactics don't require you worry about losses quite so much. It's a war of attrition. It's gonna come down to how long BoB's infrastructure can support it's military. Personally if I came under the guns of 8 titans it would suck but that's the nature of the game. If BoB has taken the time to build 8 of em then it is not up to me to say how they use them. If CCP feels that it is wrong then they will change it. Look on the brightside it is taking 8 titans to fend off GoonSwarm. I would like to know your thoughts on my Titan suggestions though.
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 05:33:00 - [101] Originally by: Tyber Raine I more worried about GoonSwarm making moves near Triumvirate space in Pure Blind than BoB. You guys have BoB bottled up in Delve away from everyone else. I don't even expect BoB to win in the slightest. You have a huge manpower advantage and your tactics don't require you worry about losses quite so much. It's a war of attrition. It's gonna come down to how long BoB's infrastructure can support it's military. Personally if I came under the guns of 8 titans it would suck but that's the nature of the game. If BoB has taken the time to build 8 of em then it is not up to me to say how they use them. If CCP feels that it is wrong then they will change it. Look on the brightside it is taking 8 titans to fend off GoonSwarm. I would like to know your thoughts on my Titan suggestions though. Ok so BoB is bottled up producing multiple titans and supercapitals using the most lucrative and broken space in the game. Yea, that sounds like some positive containment there. Your reflection that this is a GS/BoB issue is accurate and my claim that you don't care about the issue because someone else is 'dealing with it' is also accurate. I think the only real solution is James'. Also, we don't really have a huge manpower advantage. You have to consider active pilots who PVP versus inactive alts or people committed to just mining and *** all the time. BoB and friends are a large alliance capable of getting fleets of 300-400 if the need arises. The common assertion that BoB is some kind of underdog being picked on by thousands of people at once is really quite untrue. Compounding this is the issue of BoB having on average significantly higher SP players and more capitals/supercapitals, a trend that has only recently begun to change.
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:02:00 - [102] Edited by: Tyber Raine on 06/05/2008 06:04:51 Edited by: Tyber Raine on 06/05/2008 06:03:37 And despite all that you have them beaten back into their home turf. I don't see how them being able to defend their space with their 8 titans should make me feel sorry for GoonSwarm. It is your War afterall. I found it kind of funny that you act like taking out BoB is something that everyone should get behind as if you are doing everyone a favor and no one seems to be thanking you for it or helping out. You are right in the sense that I don't know what it is like to come under a titan's guns but look at it this way if the roles were switched and you had 8 titans and BoB was complaining about you chaining DD would you agree that chaining DD was an OP aspect of gameplay? I doubt it. This is simply a matter of perspective in the sense that Goon is frustrated that most if not all attempts to break into Delve are repelled due to BoB usage of Titans. Maybe what you should do is simply find out when BoB's titan pilot's schedules of being online, find the time that least Titans are online and simply make sure you have your coalition gather several fleets to engage. I suppose you could try muster around 1000 members and form 10 smaller fleets each entering seperately. But these 5 fleets are simply made to die and waste DD so I would suggest forming fleets of cheaper vessels then when the titans are down get into your real ships and then cause as much damage as possible. I suppose you could rinse and repeat until BoB has no more titans. I don't know if GoonSwarm and its allies can muster these kinds of numbers but something along these lines. Of course that plan is simply if I could do it and pull it off I would but I have no idea if it would hold up but my point is that you just have to find a way around DD chain firings. Edit: Why is cr@ck blockable?? *****... i dont get it <_<
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:08:00 - [103] Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 06:13:27 How is anyone supposed to take that post seriously? Not one thing you said was accurate or worthy of a serious response. Do yourself a favor, scamper off and hide in your worthless space that you hold because someone lets you and because it's so terrible no one wants it. EDIT- You've made it painfully clear that 1) You don't know anything about the issue and you've never even experienced a DD let alone multiple DDs. 2) You hold a grudge against GS, whom you feel threaten your space and allies. Rather than add insights into this thread based upon logic and experience you'd rather **** it up with your pubbie nonsense. In other words, if you don't know anything about the subject, then shut your pubbie mouth.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:15:00 - [104] There simply needs to be a module you can fit to make you immune to DDDs. The module should have fitting requirements that make it undesirable to fit for any other reason than to survive one or more titans, but pilots should have the option. Most points are moot though since this game can't even handle the kinds of fights that would involve a titan, let alone a 700 man frig swarm.
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:20:00 - [105] No it isn't that it doesn't warrant a response but that you can't respond because what I have said is true. So to counter me you attempt to insult me as an immature child would. So please continue to throw your tantrums. It is your war with BoB not mine so like I said I feel no sympathy towards GoonSwarm. You simply QQ because not everything is going smoothly then when someone disagrees with your QQing you try to flame them. I would be lying if I said I expected GoonSwarm members to act in a mature fashion when taking criticism. I would also be lying if I said this is the first incident of this type of immature behavior but I have seen many GoonSwarm posts that simply show how childish its members can be. In closing, I must say that I am quite happy where I am located and am happy to be a part of my alliance and that is all that matters to me. We have fun and many good people are in it so good luck in your campaign against BoB and good luck to BoB in defending their home zone.
Equin Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:23:00 - [106] Quote: You have to consider active pilots who PVP versus inactive alts or people committed to just mining and **** all the time. BoB and friends are a large alliance capable of getting fleets of 300-400 if the need arises. The common assertion that BoB is some kind of underdog being picked on by thousands of people at once is really quite untrue. At times in the war both bob and goons have had numbers advantages. Both in terms of total pilots in alliance+allies and in active pilots. I don't think anyone who knows the true numbers would dispute that. Since we hit NOL they have had they edge in active pilots fighting the war. Their turn out increased when they got pushed back to NOL. I don't think that should surprise anyone and you can speculate as to the reasons why it did all you want. The coalitions numbers fell. You can speculate about the reasons for that all you want as well. I will simply list one one of many reasons it did. Fighting against titans isn't fun. Fighting against multiple titans is even worse. Fighting against multiple titans in cyno jammed systems makes you want to unsub and quit eve or at least take a break. Especially when you take a jammer down and reinforce the POS and the next day they've onlined one at another POS. Is the lack of fun enough to nerf something? Probably not. Is something that makes players unsub because it ruins the game a reason to nerf something? I'm not CCP but if I was I would seriously look into drastically changing how titans work now that we've spent this much time in the multiple-titans era and we have more data as to how multiple titans and especially multiple-titans and cynojammers work together.
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:29:00 - [107] Originally by: Pilgrippa There simply needs to be a module you can fit to make you immune to DDDs. The module should have fitting requirements that make it undesirable to fit for any other reason than to survive one or more titans, but pilots should have the option. Perhaps they should make an "Lawls your titan is pretty much useless." button as well. =/ Originally by: Pilgrippa Most points are moot though since this game can't even handle the kinds of fights that would involve a titan, let alone a 700 man frig swarm. I meant that hypothetically speaking if you could. Although you wouldn't send them in all together but 100 at a time just to waste bob's DD shots. Although I don't know if BoB would take the bait and use them. I doubt it. You never know until you try lol
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:30:00 - [108] Originally by: Tyber Raine Perhaps they should make an "Lawls your titan is pretty much useless." button as well. =/ Well you seem to have found the 'Lawls everything I (Tyber Raine) says is useless." buttons (IT'S YOUR KEYBOARD).
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Equin Quote: You have to consider active pilots who PVP versus inactive alts or people committed to just mining and **** all the time. BoB and friends are a large alliance capable of getting fleets of 300-400 if the need arises. The common assertion that BoB is some kind of underdog being picked on by thousands of people at once is really quite untrue. At times in the war both bob and goons have had numbers advantages. Both in terms of total pilots in alliance+allies and in active pilots. I don't think anyone who knows the true numbers would dispute that. Since we hit NOL they have had they edge in active pilots fighting the war. Their turn out increased when they got pushed back to NOL. I don't think that should surprise anyone and you can speculate as to the reasons why it did all you want. The coalitions numbers fell. You can speculate about the reasons for that all you want as well. I will simply list one one of many reasons it did. Fighting against titans isn't fun. Fighting against multiple titans is even worse. Fighting against multiple titans in cyno jammed systems makes you want to unsub and quit eve or at least take a break. Especially when you take a jammer down and reinforce the POS and the next day they've onlined one at another POS. Is the lack of fun enough to nerf something? Probably not. Is something that makes players unsub because it ruins the game a reason to nerf something? I'm not CCP but if I was I would seriously look into drastically changing how titans work now that we've spent this much time in the multiple-titans era and we have more data as to how multiple titans and especially multiple-titans and cynojammers work together. I have no problem with toning down DD shots firings being able to be used quickly in succession. I have no problem with CCP implementing a cooldown on same system firings. But getting rid of chaining completely is kind of like saying "Well yea you have multiple titans but they don't matter." Who knows maybe CCP will make it so that there is a 1 titan limit for alliances for the sake of removing the Titan - Online factor. I would be fine with that as well. I just don't find it in the game's best interest to completely nerf something just to benefit the war of an alliance.
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:37:00 - [110] Edited by: Erik Amirault on 06/05/2008 06:37:54 Originally by: Tyber Raine You are right in the sense that I don't know what it is like to come under a titan's guns Why are to talking in this thread like you know what you are talking about. Why should anyone take you seriously? Stop. Talking. Pubbie.
Equin Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:40:00 - [111] Quote: I just don't find it in the game's best interest to completely nerf something just to benefit the war of an alliance. You are mistaken if you think that is what we are discussing. What we are discussing is whether or not titans are balanced. I'm not going to say titans being balanced wouldn't help goons. But CCP shouldn't change them if they feel they are balanced. If they take a deep look at them I'm pretty sure they will agree they are not.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:44:00 - [112] Originally by: Tyber Raine Perhaps they should make an "Lawls your titan is pretty much useless." button as well. =/ That all depends on the penalty for fitting the Anti-Doomsday Device Device (ADDD). I know all of Goonswarm will fit it, so it should be expensive... thereby forcing them to drop somewhat good loot. Besides, tell me how else you're supposed to take out a ******* cyno jammer nowadays when there are a bunch of titans licking their chops for your fleet.
Tyber Raine Caldari Gladiators of Rage DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:52:00 - [113] Oh I would agree that they are probably not balanced but I simply don't agree that a COMPLETE nerf is ideal here. I personally would like to see a more fleet oriented Titan personally with single ship firing capabilities on Capitals and BS. Also when I re-read my comment about limiting a single titan to an alliance seems like most likely the best solution in the grand scheme as the game gets older as the idea of 10+ titan fleets running around 0.0 causing havoc seems quite silly to me. Although that might simply mean people would only use titans as a last resort but I would say that is a much better fate than multiple titans. Of course that would effectively spell the demise of BoB so I would probably start with a chain firing nerf and wait until this conflict is resolved and then implement a 1 titan per alliance. CCP will most likely have to do some heavy sucking up to those alliances affected but in the long run it would only make sure that things don't become just haywire in 0.0 space.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:55:00 - [114] Is that your final answer?
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:56:00 - [115] no titans should stay as they are.. www.garia.net
Equin Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.06 06:58:00 - [116] Originally by: Pilgrippa Is that your final answer? It seems like he's made the hard decision and now ccp just has to implement it.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.06 07:16:00 - [117] Titans NEED to stay the way they are. Just to be clear, I'm not in the OP's favour of removing DDD for some death ray beam. A script to change it to death ray mode might be cool. A way to nuke 500 frigates at once needs to exist, or else the zerg wars will begin, and the servers will melt. The ADDD module needs to exist as well, or else it will just be impossible to kill a cyno jammer.
Zakgram Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.06 08:03:00 - [118] Why not change the way the dd weapon works so that it does "smartbomb" style damage every n second, increasing as time goes on. Use the power of 2 for example, 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768 etc... anybody who stays in the AOF gets hit but it gives people in smaller ships a chance to disengage. Oh - and have the DD disable all warp drives in the area while the effect is in play.
Amateratsu Caldari Terra Incognita Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:48:00 - [119] Correct me if im mistaken, but if you have enough Titans on grid to insta dd a capital fleet, will those dd's not also hit and damage the other titans? Or are Titans imune to dd damage from other Titans?
Borsek's Clone	Posted - 2008.05.06 09:55:00 - [120] Originally by: cyberdog I don't perticullary smack too often, but when you have spent long enough in 0.0 and have experianced capital warfare, come back and re-word that post. (Obvious troll is obvious?) Well, either make the doomsday kill everything, or rename it to "big boom" or something. What's the point of calling something a nuke if all it does is explode like a normal bomb? Yeah, it sounds cool, but it isn't really... oh, and no, I am not a troll! I am a human. :P

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