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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.15 23:49:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Dedalus77 I can't speak for anyone else but my argument has nothing to do with what things have been historically under CCP, rather my argument is that mission-runners are just going to leave the salvage (or blow it up just to spite me) so it's not theft, unlike ore theft in which the producer of the ore intends to sell it.
So if the mission runner IS going to salvage it than it is theft? How do you know? I salvage every one of my wrecks in Empire in every mission - the only exception being when the real world intervenes creating an inability to spend the time because I'm needed doing something not on the computer (or at least not on EVE).
Quote: There is also the matter of the salvaged vessel not actually belonging to the mission-runner (it belongs to the NPC corp it was from in the first place) but I guess that would fall into the "argument from history" which I guess you are saying is not valid.
There are holes in that argument. If we engage in battle someplace (high or low sec where flagging matters) and I shoot your ship up you can come along and take your modules back. Taking them won't flag you for theft, they're still "yours". However I can also take them, if I choose, and that's not theft either, because I blew the ship up.
In EVE, currently, loot is sort of dual ownership - the killer and the killee. However if someone else comes along and steals your stuff they'll be flashy red to me. I'm not positive but I don't think they will be to you, even though those were originally your modules.
Preminent claim would seem to go to the killer.
Real world or historical examples have limited utility because they all assume that the salvage is just that. Salvage. All of it. Cannon, hull, computers, cargo, wiring, copper pipe, old cars, everything.
In EVE we have a situation where some of that stuff 'belongs' to the 'killer' while some of it is just free 'up for grabs'. Which is exceedingly odd. It would make sense (and the 'It's just junk' argument would fly) if the 'salvage' had low/minimal value that required a lot of volume to recoup. One could then see folks not 'caring' about salvage rights for what is truly 'junk'. Then salvage would be a perfectly sane profession, but it wouldn't pay well. It would be safe, downright boring really, but it wouldn't pay well.
The disjunct comes when the 'salvage' has considerable value. Frequently more than the 'loot'. Suddenly the 'it's just junk' argument becomes completely spurious. Why? Because something that's worth 16 million ISK isn't JUNK! Particularly not if it took you only a short time to collect with minimal investment in skills and kit.
Were salvage lower value - problem solved. Most mission runners simply wouldn't care and we wouldn't all be here. Were the costs involved in recouping the salvage really high - or the skills really difficult to obtain, then you'd see the same effect.
But that isn't the case. Someone is coming along and taking something very valuable from you that would not be present were it not for your efforts.
That isn't salvage, that's stealing.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.16 05:06:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 16/07/2008 05:07:40
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom In EVE, currently, loot is sort of dual ownership - the killer and the killee. However if someone else comes along and steals your stuff they'll be flashy red to me. I'm not positive but I don't think they will be to you, even though those were originally your modules.
Wrong-o.
If YOU and Pilot B are engaged in PvP, and Pilot A blows up Pilot B's ship, and Pilot C comes along and loots Pilot B's wreck, he is NOT flagged to YOU whatsoever.
So, by that statement, if we were to attribute the same rules to Mission Runners killing NPC rats (see: CONSISTENCY) then if someone entered the Mission Deadspace and looted the wrecks, you would not get aggro on them, either.
Want it to change in that respect? It's a sound argument, if we're basing things on commonality.
We're Recruiting! |
Calacheng
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.16 06:12:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
If YOU and Pilot B are engaged in PvP, and Pilot A blows up Pilot B's ship, and Pilot C comes along and loots Pilot B's wreck, he is NOT flagged to YOU whatsoever.
So, by that statement, if we were to attribute the same rules to Mission Runners killing NPC rats (see: CONSISTENCY) then if someone entered the Mission Deadspace and looted the wrecks, you would not get aggro on them, either.
If someone entered the Mission Deadspace and LOOTED the wrecks you will get aggro on them. Only if they salvage the wrecks you have created by shooting the npc ships you do not get aggro on them. (see: INCONSISTENCY)
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.16 11:40:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Calacheng If someone entered the Mission Deadspace and LOOTED the wrecks you will get aggro on them. Only if they salvage the wrecks you have created by shooting the npc ships you do not get aggro on them. (see: INCONSISTENCY)
Thank you for making my argument for me. (Obviously, you didn't see what I was saying, and thus, provided more proof to my statement. Bravo.)
We're Recruiting! |
Dedalus77
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Posted - 2008.07.16 13:17:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom
So if the mission runner IS going to salvage it than it is theft?
It can't be theft if it doesn't belong to you. I'm really not sure how many ways to say this, unlike loot, wrecks do not belong to you. If CCP changes this (which seems unlikely) then you can call it theft. But just because you want it to be theft, that doesn't mean it is.
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Calacheng
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.16 19:49:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: Calacheng If someone entered the Mission Deadspace and LOOTED the wrecks you will get aggro on them. Only if they salvage the wrecks you have created by shooting the npc ships you do not get aggro on them. (see: INCONSISTENCY)
Thank you for making my argument for me. (Obviously, you didn't see what I was saying, and thus, provided more proof to my statement. Bravo.)
I just fixed your incorrect accusation and you do have a lot of them in almost in every post you make about ninja salvaging. Since you keep yapping about consistency you should know what inconsistency means and when there is inconsistency it should be fixed. Those two actions above need to both be aggro flagged or there would be inconsistency.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.17 04:05:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 17/07/2008 04:08:10
Originally by: Calacheng I just fixed your incorrect accusation and you do have a lot of them in almost in every post you make about ninja salvaging. Since you keep yapping about consistency you should know what inconsistency means and when there is inconsistency it should be fixed. Those two actions above need to both be aggro flagged or there would be inconsistency.
But the inconsistency with THAT is (of which I am speaking, and you are ignoring) when a PvP battle occurs, and Player A blows up Player B's ship, the loot in Player B's ship belongs to ... wait for it ... Player B! (This is why Player A is usually angry when scavengers come and loot the wrecks, because they cannot shoot them!) To be consistent, if you blow up a rat, the LOOT should also belong the Rat itself, and that would mean NO aggro to anyone when the looted it.
If you want consistency, let's go all the way. The loot from the Missions is also fair game.
There. Fixed. Happy?
Oh, and by the way, I didn't invent Ninja Salvaging, but I did perfect it! So, the next time you want to shoot your mouth off and say I don't know what I'm talking about, don't.
We're Recruiting! |
Calacheng
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.17 04:56:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 17/07/2008 04:08:10 If you want consistency, let's go all the way. The loot from the Missions is also fair game.
Let's go the other way. The salvage from the Missions is also aggro flagged.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn There. Fixed. Happy?
There. Fixed. Happy?
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:19:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Calacheng Let's go the other way. The salvage from the Missions is also aggro flagged.
/me facepalms.
Ok then, while we're throwing out stupid ideas, how about if you shoot me while I'm in your Mission, after I get aggro for salvaging the wrecks, my entire Corp gets aggro on you?
I mean, since we're throwing out our best moronic ideas, after all...
/me mutters, "These Mission Runners just never learn..."
We're Recruiting! |
Calacheng
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.17 21:28:00 -
[190]
I would check what ship you are flying and would act accordingly.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.17 22:11:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 17/07/2008 22:13:26
Originally by: Dedalus77 It can't be theft if it doesn't belong to you. I'm really not sure how many ways to say this, unlike loot, wrecks do not belong to you. If CCP changes this (which seems unlikely) then you can call it theft. But just because you want it to be theft, that doesn't mean it is.
I'm sorry - you're confusing morality with legality.
Currently stealing it is 'legal' which doesn't make it 'right'.
In the real world if I walk onto your property, beat you up, take your crap and kick you off your own land with no compensation I expect you would agree with me that such behaviour is unethical.
However in Zimbabwe if you are the government or one of their buds - it's legal. Which doesn't make it the least bit more right.
I, however, still see taking my salvage as stealing and you may count on me treating it as such even if I have to pop some of my own profit, warp out to let the rats have the ninja or jump them in a ship fitted for suicide gank.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course - but I plan on backing mine up with blasters.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Biterno Sintaph
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:42:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom In the real world if I walk onto your property, beat you up, take your crap and kick you off your own land with no compensation I expect you would agree with me that such behaviour is unethical.
Your analogy is flawed because salvage is not your property. It's FFA.
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I, however, still see taking my salvage as stealing and you may count on me treating it as such even if I have to pop some of my own profit, warp out to let the rats have the ninja or jump them in a ship fitted for suicide gank.
So... business as usual, then?
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Gark32
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:47:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 17/07/2008 22:13:26
Originally by: Dedalus77 It can't be theft if it doesn't belong to you. I'm really not sure how many ways to say this, unlike loot, wrecks do not belong to you. If CCP changes this (which seems unlikely) then you can call it theft. But just because you want it to be theft, that doesn't mean it is.
I'm sorry - you're confusing morality with legality.
Currently stealing it is 'legal' which doesn't make it 'right'.
In the real world if I walk onto your property, beat you up, take your crap and kick you off your own land with no compensation I expect you would agree with me that such behaviour is unethical.
However in Zimbabwe if you are the government or one of their buds - it's legal. Which doesn't make it the least bit more right.
I, however, still see taking my salvage as stealing and you may count on me treating it as such even if I have to pop some of my own profit, warp out to let the rats have the ninja or jump them in a ship fitted for suicide gank.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course - but I plan on backing mine up with blasters.
ok, this is simple. a dev, as in the guys that made the game, said pretty clearly that salvage is nobody's. not yours, not mine, nobody's. they aren't going to change that, as much as you qq here on the forums or in game. therefore, you are deluded. you are trying to place your mark on things not yours, which IRL is called stealing.
take your delusions and morality and go play hello kitty or something. ________________________________________________
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.19 00:33:00 -
[194]
Since this thread has more views than the "Welcome to this Section" thread, I vote that it become a sticky.
All in favour? All opposed?
We're Recruiting! |
Mika Meroko
Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.07.19 02:24:00 -
[195]
man, one thing for sure,
there will be MORE people (the people who bait jetcan miners) in your mission, stealing your wrecks if you give them aggro rights....
I know I will do that as a part time thing =P a break from exploration sites =P
Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.19 16:08:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Biterno Sintaph Your analogy is flawed because salvage is not your property. It's FFA.
Ooh - look at all the Salvage thieves jumping in.
The analogy is not flawed in the least. In Zimbabwe your 'property' becomes FFA as soon as the government decides they don't like you.
Which is entirely legal - it's the law.
None of which makes it ethical, or right. Or, given the train wreck that it's made of their economy, even smart.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente The Flying Tigers United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.19 16:13:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Gark32 ok, this is simple. a dev, as in the guys that made the game, said pretty clearly that salvage is nobody's. not yours, not mine, nobody's. they aren't going to change that, as much as you qq here on the forums or in game. therefore, you are deluded. you are trying to place your mark on things not yours, which IRL is called stealing.
take your delusions and morality and go play hello kitty or something.
Ah, lovely insults. Someone holds a different opinion and automatically it's time to toss epithets around.
John Maynard Keynes once said, to a detractor who accused him of changing his position on something, "Why yes, I did say we shouldn't do that anymore whereas before I said I thought we should. When I find out I'm wrong about something I change my mind. What do you do?"
What 'Dev's said' in the past does not affect the present, necessarily. EVE changes all the time and there is quite a lot of support for the salvage system changing.
Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. But if it does I guess you'll need to find another line of work or fit some guns on your 'salvage' ship.
May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk
(Old Egyptian Blessing) |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.19 16:29:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't. But if it does I guess you'll need to find another line of work or fit some guns on your 'salvage' ship.
You're right. It could change. That would be quite the day, when, after so many Mission Runners come to the Forums and complain that Ninja Gankers are now ruining their Missions by entering, getting shot, and returning to blow them up.
I'll be sure to direct them to my thread, and show them who to blame for it. Those who make the decision to give salvage aggro might be able to handle the backlash, but nobody can guarantee that everybody can.
We're Recruiting! |
Jazric
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Posted - 2008.07.21 08:10:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Jazric on 21/07/2008 08:11:15 [x] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks.
Further more loot should be available to everyone and all wrecks should be able to be tractored by everyone.
. . .
Ok since that will never happen I do want to say a couple things. After spending a weekend mining omber and finally wanting to shoot myself in the head I started looking for something new and fun. I read a post about ninja salvaging and thought I would give it a try. After spending six hours training up the skills and pulling together the necessary equipment I headed out to the nearest high sec mission hub to give it a test run.
After waiting 6 minutes from my scan I see a raven, ok here we go, and an acceleration gate my first try! I jump in and immediately warped out. n00bs are not use to seeing quiet that many red cross hairs. I went back to the forums and discovered I wouldn't be agro'd so I went back with my salvager and the mission runner was done with that room.
Well all said and done I made about 15 mil on that first mission. It was a bit of beginners luck, the next mission area I only made 5 and it took me a couple attempts to find a gate. The last one of the evening was really fun because the runner came back in an iteron to loot and salvage. It was fun because my slasher could fly too the wrecks and salvage them faster than his tractor beam could pull them in.
Ok that being said I think there are some untruths being told.
-No it is not hard to salvage mission runners, period.
-I've been to null sec, running missions is way easier than running into a gate camp. Most people I know run missions because it is fast easy money, not because of the fantastic skill of challenge mission running represents.
I think both of those truths are really important for everyone to understand. One of my favorite comments I've read so far is on the ownership of wrecks. You OWN those wrecks? For those who think that please go run a mission in low sec. First your pretty raven will get blown to bits, next all those wrecks will not only get salvaged but also looted and the one wreck you actually did own will also get salvaged and looted. Of course you already know that don't you, thats why you run missions in empire.
I'm really surprised more people don't take advantage of all this. I know pirates in 0.0 who would love to pew pew a player in a PVE BS. Why don't they just scan down mission runners and start stealing their loot, ravens are so much prettier on killboards than rifters.
For those of you that think that all players salvage their wrecks run a 360 degree directional scan in ANY system at max range and see how many wrecks show up. Do it again an hour later, my guess is a sizable portion of missions don't get salvaged. Now I'm in no way against making salvaging mission runners wrecks more difficult / challenging. By all means make agro from rats open. I'm even down with the whole staking a claim thing, I don't think it should be a super easy one click option though. I think your claim should last 15 minutes. After that the wreck comes open to claim by anyone who right clicks the wreck and that claim should last for another 15 minutes. Finally wrecks would persist 1 hour after the finish of the last claim. I can just imagine the lazy mission runner sitting back letting his (or her) hammerhead II's fight the good fight suddenly realize all their wrecks are turning yellow :-)
Well that's all for now, if you see me out there while you are missioning say hi, and if you ask nicely maybe I'll leave your wrecks alone... maybe.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:28:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Jazric I jump in and immediately warped out. n00bs are not use to seeing quiet that many red cross hairs. I went back to the forums and discovered I wouldn't be agro'd so I went back with my salvager and the mission runner was done with that room.
I'd like to see where you read that, since it's fundamentally wrong.
You can be aggro'd by the NPC ships - don't fool yourself. It happens to me all the time. (I see you're flying a Slasher, which I need to commend you on, as it's the fastest Minmatar frigate and the best racial ship for Ninja Salvaging.) The good news is, because you're using a frigate, the larger ships (BC's and BS's) in the spawn will do very little damage if you keep moving.
That being said, if you ever warp in on a L5 Mission, be prepared to run away fast. I got hit with 800+ DPS warping in to a L5 by the ENVIRONMENT! (Damn gas clouds.)
Originally by: Jazric I'm really surprised more people don't take advantage of all this. I know pirates in 0.0 who would love to pew pew a player in a PVE BS. Why don't they just scan down mission runners and start stealing their loot, ravens are so much prettier on killboards than rifters.
We're hiring! (...and we're always looking for good PvP'ers. You want action? Looking for targets? We've had 18 Wardecs in three months.)
Originally by: Jazric Well that's all for now, if you see me out there while you are missioning say hi, and if you ask nicely maybe I'll leave your wrecks alone.
Tchell Dahhn Alt spotted!
Oh wait.
We're Recruiting! |
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.07.21 19:39:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Faraelle Brightman on 21/07/2008 19:42:05 I want to be able to salvage wrecks without being flagged as a criminal (being a mostly law-abiding Federation resident), especialy wrecks abandoned on purpose. However I don't want to tick people of by taking salvage they might want. My imperfect guideline is that if no one else is hovering around the wreck area, they're fair game.
I would not be against implimenting, for example, some sort of timer so that when a person leaves the vicinity of a wreck and stays away for x amount of time, it is considered abandoned. After that point salvage of the wreck is 1st come, 1st served with no flagging.
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.21 19:51:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman I would not be against implimenting, for example, some sort of timer so that when a person leaves the vicinity of a wreck and stays away for x amount of time, it is considered abandoned. After that point salvage of the wreck is 1st come, 1st served with no flagging.
If you set the timer for 30 seconds, and set the distance at 5000m, I'm all for this idea.
We're Recruiting! |
Jazric
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:34:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Jazric on 21/07/2008 22:34:58
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn I'd like to see where you read that, since it's fundamentally wrong.
I over simplified that. I didn't mean that you couldn't be agro'd period just that you won't get insta agro'd as soon as you jump in. Plenty of time to make a book mark and wait for things to settle down a bit.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn We're hiring! (...and we're always looking for good PvP'ers. You want action? Looking for targets? We've had 18 Wardecs in three months.)
I might have to take you up on this at some point, I'm not quiet ready to start PVP yet but my CEO just told me I had to stop ninja salvaging or I'm out. So I'm kind of riding the fence right now, we'll see where the next couple of weeks take me :-)
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JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.22 10:30:00 -
[204]
When you join our corp you are encouraged to Ninja Salvage.
Furthermore, not everyone in our corp does PVP. We have a few people who are really good at it, a few okay people, and several crappy pvp-ers(like myself.) The last group generally sits back and salvages, and we make quite decent moneys doing it.
(ps. train asometrics to 4 xD it will help)
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.22 11:54:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Jazric I over simplified that. I didn't mean that you couldn't be agro'd period just that you won't get insta agro'd as soon as you jump in. Plenty of time to make a book mark and wait for things to settle down a bit.
I was a little harsh on my response, and I appreciate the clarification.
Originally by: Jazric I might have to take you up on this at some point, I'm not quite ready to start PVP yet but my CEO just told me I had to stop ninja salvaging or I'm out. So I'm kind of riding the fence right now, we'll see where the next couple of weeks take me :-)
As our Member mentioned, we promote Ninja Salvaging and Looting as a profession, so you'll never get warned about it. (...although you might get warned if you don't.)
We're Recruiting! |
Dotard
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.22 12:26:00 -
[206]
Unlike most SN members, I invade missions and loot wrecks often just for the aggro. Not always, but often.
And I make it most obvious. I'll approach only loot containing wrecks, nick the goods and lazily orbit you until you shoot.
Once fired upon I warp off to get the shootin' ship. Gives you plenty of time to warp off to get your shootin' ship. Or call in your corp mates as I am flagged to your entire corp.
There are other options to pop us without suiciding yourself.
--------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
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Brother Nightfall
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Posted - 2008.07.22 15:59:00 -
[207]
Just as a matter of interest, what do you use as a shootin' ship, Dotard?
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Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.22 17:48:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Brother Nightfall Just as a matter of interest, what do you use as a shootin' ship, Dotard?
Wardec Corp Alt Detected!
Kidding. I'm sure the Big Dog'll be in here shortly.
We're Recruiting! |
Dedalus77
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:53:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Jazric I might have to take you up on this at some point, I'm not quiet ready to start PVP yet but my CEO just told me I had to stop ninja salvaging or I'm out. So I'm kind of riding the fence right now, we'll see where the next couple of weeks take me :-)
I'm pretty new to EVE and have not really done much PVP; it's definitely not a requirement to join the corp (although you will have to be on constant alert for War Targets, which makes everything more fun). Personally I spend 95% of my time salvaging and looting.
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JordanParey
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.07.23 12:30:00 -
[210]
People make us out to be terrible or something. We are actually quite nice people, and we have fun in corp chat.
Remember: It's just a game.
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