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Quick N Easy: Ninja Salvaging vs. Salvage Theft

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raylon	Posted - 2008.05.10 16:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Hamfast Welcome to the Miners threat... "We get to steal your work and if you do anything about it we pop your expensive ship"... Hamfasts' comment makes a critical point - at least the miners have an option of doing something about it, they have a valid course of action (as foolhardy as it may be hehe).
Sigul Siento	Posted - 2008.05.10 23:07:00 - [92] Edited by: Sigul Siento on 10/05/2008 23:10:39 But but but, what is to be done with asteroid flagging in your belt? Obviously, if you are in a belt all the asteroids are yours, and anyone mining them ought to be criminally flagged so you could shoot them.
Gajin Blaze	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:09:00 - [93] i look at it this way, the other night i was in a mission, (L4) and i had a guy probe me out. and promptly began to salvage my wrecks, now i had my alt there to salvage as we went, so it was obvious that i was taking the wrecks, and there i set with my raven unable to do anythin gabout this guy flying around in a frigate grabbing my wrecks, now you say i technically don't own them, well that is fine, but i feel i do you did not do the work to make it a salvageble wreck. sure you got teh skills, and did the work to probe me out, but if i come and steal your jetcan while you are mining you can kill me, so the option should be there in wrecks as well imo, i not looking to out anyhone. but when i go can flipping i have to take a stronger ship so that i can fight if necessary, i cannot jsut fly out there in my badger and empty your can (all though there are ways to do that) i'm one of those pilots that believe in the prosperity of all, if you take the time to probe out my mission and actually track me down well then you have done some work i am fairly new to probing and i know it is not easy and time consuming, ok so now you in deadspace with me convo me i can honor the work you just put in you salvage and we split it, i believe that is fair enough you worked to find me i worked to make the NPC salvagable. and as said by one above. empire missions no give bounty and the loot and salvage is the only real profit, lets face it by the time you build a pve lvl 4 ship and go outand use it by the time you figure the cost of ammo and cap boosters and all that mission reward barely covers it. take off weapons and fit salvager/tractor you say. well that may be fine and dandy for guys flying bad A** ships with a ton of sp, but personally i cannot afford to take a launcher off my raven to fit such things, and i have not even cvhecked if i cna fit such things on my raven with all weapons on, it would not do much good anyhow as my pve raven hold is always full of cap boosters for my booster, so there in poses a problem of ccargo space. long story short mayber there should be an option when a ninja salvager tries to loot a wreck in a deadpace to the pilot in the mission to assume aggro or not a pop up window or something, i feel that with enough thinking a suitable solution can be made to accomidate both the mission runner, and the ninja. just my 2 cents guess it more like a buck fifty but all the same gajin
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 16:57:00 - [94] I do recall a certain push for the right to agro can thieves. Yea that ended well. Instead of can thief forum whines you had a dramatic increase OMG they flipped my can and killed me!! This will do the same thing, except in this case you will see massive forum rage rants on the part of the mission runners because they lost there precious CNR faction fitted rat mobile. CCP stated that salvage is trash and as long as you do not take the crap out of the can you legal. I think you should just leave this alone. I guarantee you that a bunch of people are praying for this to come in to play and these people praying for the right to aggro salvagers are not the mission runners.
raylon	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Farrqua I do recall a certain push for the right to agro can thieves. Yea that ended well. Instead of can thief forum whines you had a dramatic increase OMG they flipped my can and killed me!! This will do the same thing, except in this case you will see massive forum rage rants on the part of the mission runners because they lost there precious CNR faction fitted rat mobile. I don't see people coming into my mission to loot my can to start a pvp fight, so i do not see how this would be different? It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have none It would also at least let me know this is happening and give me a chance to do something. This occured again the other day, and the guy managed to salvage all of my battleships for which i had no idea until i came back to salvage. an aggro counter would give me a heads up. 2 sansha battleships can yeild 4 armor plates and 4 melted capacitor - which is valued over the time bonus. I dont consider that trash.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:49:00 - [96] Edited by: Farrqua on 12/05/2008 17:50:12 Originally by: raylon I don't see people coming into my mission to loot my can to start a pvp fight, so i do not see how this would be different? It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have none It would also at least let me know this is happening and give me a chance to do something. This occured again the other day, and the guy managed to salvage all of my battleships for which i had no idea until i came back to salvage. an aggro counter would give me a heads up. 2 sansha battleships can yeild 4 armor plates and 4 melted capacitor - which is valued over the time bonus. I dont consider that trash. Well you see that is part of the problem. Some of these mechanic changes were pushed pretty hard by players that have a focus on their own self interests. Not realizing what consequences it poses for other players. There are quite a few mission runners getting hammered right now by basically getting baited in aggression. Just because you are not aware of it in your area of influence does not mean that it is not happening all over empire. Pushing for changes without understanding the global impact to the general player base is not very wise. But as long you get what you want to hell with everyone else, right?
raylon	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:01:00 - [97] Originally by: Farrqua Pushing for changes without understanding the global impact to the general player base is not very wise. But as long you get what you want to hell with everyone else, right? I've considered the impact, i've explained my position and i've backed it up. I've also made suggestions as to possible solutions. Attempting to spin this as my own greed backed only by "global change, mechanices - you dont get it" brings absolutly nothing to the table.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:26:00 - [98] Originally by: raylon Originally by: Farrqua Pushing for changes without understanding the global impact to the general player base is not very wise. But as long you get what you want to hell with everyone else, right? I've considered the impact, i've explained my position and i've backed it up. I've also made suggestions as to possible solutions. Attempting to spin this as my own greed backed only by "global change, mechanices - you dont get it" brings absolutly nothing to the table. Yep read you posts, and they basically are all the same line of thought. Very singular narrow prospective that does not go past your nose. You make statemnets about how much money you make and how it effects you. You have not shown any thoughts of a global consiqueunce for your fellow eve players. Of course I guess since you play the game by your self pretty much who cares about everyone else, right?
raylon	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:09:00 - [99] Originally by: Farrqua Yep read you posts, and they basically are all the same line of thought. Very singular narrow prospective that does not go past your nose. You make statemnets about how much money you make and how it effects you. You have not shown any thoughts of a global consiqueunce for your fellow eve players. Of course I guess since you play the game by your self pretty much who cares about everyone else, right? what are these consequences, exactly? you've mentioned one - the can flipping parallel, which doesn't seem to hold much water. you can take jabs at me all you like, but something of substance would be much more appreciated.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:44:00 - [100] Originally by: raylon Originally by: Farrqua Yep read you posts, and they basically are all the same line of thought. Very singular narrow prospective that does not go past your nose. You make statemnets about how much money you make and how it effects you. You have not shown any thoughts of a global consiqueunce for your fellow eve players. Of course I guess since you play the game by your self pretty much who cares about everyone else, right? what are these consequences, exactly? you've mentioned one - the can flipping parallel, which doesn't seem to hold much water. you can take jabs at me all you like, but something of substance would be much more appreciated. When the can aggression issue came out I realized very quickly the miners and industrialist gave the High Sec pirate a new tool. And the miners that pushed for this did not see what damage and grief they caused the rest of us. Nothing has changed. You still loose your ore and now you can loose your ship. By allowing aggro on salvage you are doing the exact same thing. But now you will loose much more. 90% of the professional mission runners have no real concept of combat or how to really deal with it. You get someone probing you out in a HAC, Command Ship or Recon you are dead if you try to mess with it. You are giving another tool to the High Sec pirate. Can flippers were created from the can aggro rule. You will see a lot more pirates coming to high sec for this.

Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:01:00 - [101] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: raylon Originally by: Farrqua Yep read you posts, and they basically are all the same line of thought. Very singular narrow prospective that does not go past your nose. You make statemnets about how much money you make and how it effects you. You have not shown any thoughts of a global consiqueunce for your fellow eve players. Of course I guess since you play the game by your self pretty much who cares about everyone else, right? what are these consequences, exactly? you've mentioned one - the can flipping parallel, which doesn't seem to hold much water. you can take jabs at me all you like, but something of substance would be much more appreciated. When the can aggression issue came out I realized very quickly the miners and industrialist gave the High Sec pirate a new tool. And the miners that pushed for this did not see what damage and grief they caused the rest of us. Nothing has changed. You still loose your ore and now you can loose your ship. By allowing aggro on salvage you are doing the exact same thing. But now you will loose much more. 90% of the professional mission runners have no real concept of combat or how to really deal with it. You get someone probing you out in a HAC, Command Ship or Recon you are dead if you try to mess with it. You are giving another tool to the High Sec pirate. Can flippers were created from the can aggro rule. You will see a lot more pirates coming to high sec for this. You are half right, Mission runners may not have a concept of PvP Pew Pew Combat and the flagging will grant them a way to learn about it like it or not... My reason for wanting the flagging is to give me the choice to defend my wrecks if I decide I want to... it does not mean I will, just that I can... I do believe that your basic point is that we should be careful what we wish for, because we may just get it... --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:54:00 - [102] You guys still here? We're Recruiting!
gallentescout Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:37:00 - [103] Originally by: Farrqua When the can aggression issue came out I realized very quickly the miners and industrialist gave the High Sec pirate a new tool. And the miners that pushed for this did not see what damage and grief they caused the rest of us. Nothing has changed. You still loose your ore and now you can loose your ship. By allowing aggro on salvage you are doing the exact same thing. But now you will loose much more. 90% of the professional mission runners have no real concept of combat or how to really deal with it. You get someone probing you out in a HAC, Command Ship or Recon you are dead if you try to mess with it. You are giving another tool to the High Sec pirate. Can flippers were created from the can aggro rule. You will see a lot more pirates coming to high sec for this. You speak like people are forced to aggro when somebody steals from them. At worst they will lose one ship if they never read patch notes or ignore the large warning box that pops up when you aggro stuff for the first time... Losing any more ships than that is their choice in full knowledge of how the game works. Imo wrecks are no different to loot, if somebody 'steals' them I want the option to kill them, doesn't mean I'll take it but I want salvage theft to be like most things in this game...have a risk vs. reward factor. "Ninja salvaging" is just players wanting a free ride. The probability is likely that they could go about their business and rarely be at risk anyway even if it was an 'illegal' act. They would just have to make a decision like the rest of us on when to put their ships/assets on the line...like every other profession.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.05.13 06:30:00 - [104] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah I don't see why not really. Wrecks produce valuable salvage materials, stealing somebody else's wrecks should probably count the same as stealing from cans. The difference here is, you're negating an entire dynamic of Empire gameplay. As a Ninja Salvager, I have spent time and ISK to train Astrometrics and related skills to be able to scan down Mission Runners. I have purchased Salvager modules, and may spend millions in ISK to rig ships with Salvage Tackle I/II rigs to make the salvaging faster and easier. (They cost ~16Mil ISK at the moment - not a small investment.) What your saying is that because you trained your skills to steal someone else's loot you should be rewarded for it? How about "Well i trained ship and weapon skills to shoot people, i should be able to go on a rampage in empire whenever i feel like it without any repercussions!". You ignore the fact that the mission runner trained up his ships and weapon skills. They ran missions to work up to their current level. They might have trained up skills to salvage and also bought rigs to help salvage THEIR wrecks. Yet because you did it the lazy way ,you should get to do what you want and granted immunity? Wrecks were added after release. Wrecks come from rats that someone popped. The wrecks have items within them much like the old cargo cans did, except they have a new breed o f loot within. IF the items in the wreck are owned by the player that destroyed the rat then the items contained within lootcan 2.0 should also be owned by that player. If not then might i request that i get 10% of all bounties of any mission runner i happen to scan down? Clearly it is okay to take without worrying about a backlash for our actions. the wrecck is merely lootcan 2.0 . The items within lootcan 2.0 should be owned by the player that produced that LC2.0 . The salvage parts, or loot v2.0, are contained within the graphic of LC 2.0 . Therefore loot v2.0 should be equal if not greater then loot v1.0 (shield mods,ammo etc.) If anything it should come with a greater risk when it comes to theft or at the very least the same. IF people are not looting and not scooping loot v2 then you should contact the player. Either steal from him or ask for an aggreement where you pay a fee to salvage from his mission. IF people do not agree because they want to salvage it themselves then clearly wrecks and "salvage" have value with them. This means it is theft as opposed to picking up discarded plastic bottles and cans that are thrown into the trash. The solution? give loot v2.0 the same mechanics as loot v1.0 . If we want additional mechanics ,create a contract for mission runners to sell loot rights to players in the salvaging bussiness, legalizing it without doubt. Another suggestion? Allow mission runners to wave ownership to wrecks on 2 levels that of loot v1 and loot v2 or both. Also allow disowned wrecks to last 1 hour or even 3 minutes in space. Another idea? Allow people that find the mission area to refresh the timer on the wrecks so they can salvage to their heart's content all while avoiding unneeded work for the server for extended amounts of time. theft is theft. ninja salvaging is theft. it is equal to scooping someone's ore. the connection is that both players(missionrunner and miner) generated the stuff your taking . remove ninja from salvaging or remove criminal flagging for ore theft.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.13 07:31:00 - [105] Originally by: raylon It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have none Wait wait wait wait... WAIT! A high-sec mission runner complaining about no risk? Where the heck is the risk with running missions? Congratulations on being a hypocrite I guess. we are recruiting!
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.05.13 09:30:00 - [106] Originally by: Inertial Originally by: raylon It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have none Wait wait wait wait... WAIT! A high-sec mission runner complaining about no risk? Where the heck is the risk with running missions? Congratulations on being a hypocrite I guess. Obviously refering to the fact that the person stealing is not opening himself up to risk FOR STEALING! The risk of running missions does not apply since we are talking about the act of theft which last i checked, if you stole anything other then salvage from another player that player gets the right to shoot at you. Now if you want to talk about the risks involved with running missions, thats a whole other thread.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:49:00 - [107] Originally by: ShardowRhino Originally by: Inertial Originally by: raylon It introduces a risk for the "ninja salvager", for which they currently have none Wait wait wait wait... WAIT! A high-sec mission runner complaining about no risk? Where the heck is the risk with running missions? Congratulations on being a hypocrite I guess. Obviously refering to the fact that the person stealing is not opening himself up to risk FOR STEALING! The risk of running missions does not apply since we are talking about the act of theft which last i checked, if you stole anything other then salvage from another player that player gets the right to shoot at you. Now if you want to talk about the risks involved with running missions, thats a whole other thread. Its not theft, thus he doesn't have to open himself up to any risk. e we are recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:39:00 - [108] Allow me to link you to the GM's View, recently posted in as it pertains to Mission Wreck Ownership... >> LINK This is my favourite part: "Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will, no matter if they belong to the same corporation or not and doing so is not considered as an exploit." /end discussion /end thread p.s. I win. We're Recruiting!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 13:47:00 - [109] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Allow me to link you to the GM's View, recently posted in as it pertains to Mission Wreck Ownership... >> LINK This is my favourite part: "Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will, no matter if they belong to the same corporation or not and doing so is not considered as an exploit." /end discussion /end thread p.s. I win. Unless it is changed so the Salvaged Loot reacts the same way normal loot does... then the rest of us win... By the way, thanks for the opening, it was an easy setup. --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:00:00 - [110] Originally by: Hamfast Unless it is changed so the Salvaged Loot reacts the same way normal loot does... then the rest of us win... Please see one of my earlier posts, where the Ninja Salvager returns in a PvP ship to blow your PvE Ship away. Game... Set... Match. We're Recruiting!

Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:11:00 - [111] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Hamfast Unless it is changed so the Salvaged Loot reacts the same way normal loot does... then the rest of us win... Please see one of my earlier posts, where the Ninja Salvager returns in a PvP ship to blow your PvE Ship away. Game... Set... Match. What makes you think the missionrunner will still be there in his mission ship then? I dont really care either way if its changed, but flagging for salvaging only gives more possibilities for the missionrunners. He never have to blow you up if he dont want to.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:24:00 - [112] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Hamfast Unless it is changed so the Salvaged Loot reacts the same way normal loot does... then the rest of us win... Please see one of my earlier posts, where the Ninja Salvager returns in a PvP ship to blow your PvE Ship away. Game... Set... Match. What makes you think the missionrunner will still be there in his mission ship then? I dont really care either way if its changed, but flagging for salvaging only gives more possibilities for the missionrunners. He never have to blow you up if he dont want to. The exact point Esmenet, Thank you!!! Just because I can shoot at you, does not mean I will... as the mechanics are now, and the OP seems to want to keep it, I can't shoot without Concord showing up... if the mechanics are changed, I will have the choice to shoot without concord showing up... and that is all I get. If I choose to shoot and you choose to come back in a PvP ship, so be it... that is within the current game mechanics... were you interested in that, you would be looting as well salvaging... as it is now, you (the OP) want to hide behind the game mechanics by just salvaging because you know it will not give kill rights to the Mission Runner. --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:47:00 - [113] Originally by: Hamfast ...as it is now, you (the OP) want to hide behind the game mechanics by just salvaging because you know it will not give kill rights to the Mission Runner. Who said I didn't loot Missions as well? I can't speak for all Ninja Salvagers, but I'm not 'hiding' behind game mechanics. What I am doing is supported by CCP, and I think one of the other posts said it best - it's funny to see all you whiners claiming everything has to be changed, but if you're playing Monopoly and someone wants to play without using Houses or Hotels ... you're not really playing Monopoly anymore, are you? There was another great post that I can no longer find, but it was from CCP around April Fool's Day - might have been a Dev Blog - but it gave a list of all the 'changes' that they were making (tongue in cheek), and one was they were changing the mechanics to give salvage aggro. As it is - it would seem that there's no interest at CCP to change it, so just accept it and get on with life. We're Recruiting!
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:18:00 - [114] [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. Carebear is the surname that others gives you, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.
Decard Sune	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:36:00 - [115] Originally by: Lougra [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. And if the mission runner has the skills/tools to salvage the wrecks, what then?
SolusLunes Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.14 03:40:00 - [116] Originally by: Decard Sune Originally by: Lougra [X] The Ninja Salvager should NOT be aggro'd to the Mission Runner after the first wreck is salvaged, because I support CCP's current ruling that Salvage is free for anyone with the proper tools to retrieve from wrecks. And if the mission runner has the skills/tools to salvage the wrecks, what then? Then he had better hope that he can get to the wrecks before the ninjas can. -------- Real men are not born, rather, created in tubes.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:32:00 - [117] There is something here I find funny. A lot of people treat this as it is some kind of a epedemic, but still those few that have been ninja salvaged end up saying: "There was this one time when some person probed out my mission and salvaged my stuffs!". Right now, there aren't many ninja salvagers, but if the mechanics change we will see a new proffession of "Salvage Flippers", which will be a hundred times more popular than ninja salvaging. ****, I am going to rat my sec status up if this ever happens. we are recruiting!
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:01:00 - [118] Perfect compromise right here, thought up by, of all things, a salvage/ore thief. This solution would make basically everybody on every side of this debate happy, except for the people who do it merely to cause grief. -- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.05.14 20:34:00 - [119] Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 14/05/2008 20:38:48 Originally by: Rooker Perfect compromise right here, thought up by, of all things, a salvage/ore thief. This solution would make basically everybody on every side of this debate happy, except for the people who do it merely to cause grief. That's not entirely true - I'm not interested in causing grief. I'm interested in salvaging wrecks - period. I don't care if it's 'abandoned' or not - it's mine if I get to it before you do, and I don't care if you think it's yours just because your guns blew it up. Thus, it does not necessarily make every side of this debate happy. Especially if you're planning on adding salvage aggro, or removing my ability to scan out Mission Runners, a caveat to this idea. Oh, by the way - good kill of my Corps' ships yesterday. (You didn't think I'd recognize you, did you?) We're Recruiting!
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.15 01:16:00 - [120] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn That's not entirely true - I'm not interested in causing grief. I'm interested in salvaging wrecks - period. I don't care if it's 'abandoned' or not - it's mine if I get to it before you do, and I don't care if you think it's yours just because your guns blew it up. Thus, it does not necessarily make every side of this debate happy. Especially if you're planning on adding salvage aggro, or removing my ability to scan out Mission Runners, a caveat to this idea. Oh, by the way - good kill of my Corps' ships yesterday. (You didn't think I'd recognize you, did you?) I wasn't pointing to you as one of those who do it just to cause aggravation, but I see that apparently it applies. You go on about how CCP intended for salvaging to be an alternative profession. Yet, when shown a possible new way to make that profession far easier, more profitable and does it in a way that irritates no one, you reject it. Yes, I personally would like to see an aggression flag, but Marlenus' idea didn't suggest that and I'd be perfectly happy with the rest of his idea. I know that many missioners don't bother with salvage because it takes too long. Those wrecks just sit there until they expire when there's hundreds of people that would love to probe them out, except they can't because nobody is next to them in a ship to be probed. If we could probe out those wrecks, every salvager in Eve would have more than enough to do and never once have to cause fireworks in local about it because they're running off with salvage somebody else wanted. But you don't like the idea, because it won't find wrecks with somebody sitting next to them. That's fine. We'll just lump you into the "does it just be irritating" lot. I would like rig prices to come down and I would like to buy some of these hypothetical probes for my own use, so I'm going to support the idea. You can continue to be an irritating prat in Dodixie local all you want while several dozen other people are pulling in far more salvage from abandoned wrecks than you will ever get from some random mission runners. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Oh, by the way - good kill of my Corps' ships yesterday. (You didn't think I'd recognize you, did you?) Didn't care tbh. Also, you can consider me partly responsible for the Domi kill. I didn't have a BS of my own handy at the time, so I let Strix know he was there and then ganked the cruiser that tried to jump into it. -- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot



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