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Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:25:00 - [1] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:32:02 While in concept involving the empires in war is GREAT... I love it, should have always been there, the way this expansion is being done is very much flawed. Essentially the whole point of it is to bring non pvp'ers into pvp. It freezes out the vast majority of existing pvp'ers... WHY are space holding alliances being excluded? We all border empire. Why can't we side with them or fight against them? I believe that if alliances were integrated that this truly could bridge the gap between empire and 0.0 by allowing non alliance members the opportunity to fight alongside 0.0 alliances in empire space, thus making contacts, and friends, and maybe getting invited into 0.0 alliances... As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers. Existing pvp'ers coming in get nothing out of it, and in the end those you want to attract to pvp will get nothing but a negative experience, BECAUSE existing pvp'ers won't be a part of it. What I'd love to see is CCP rework this so that faction warfare becomes a gamewide mechanic by allowing ALL to participate. This is a major system that should get the treatment it deserves. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:25:00 - [2] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:32:02 While in concept involving the empires in war is GREAT... I love it, should have always been there, the way this expansion is being done is very much flawed. Essentially the whole point of it is to bring non pvp'ers into pvp. It freezes out the vast majority of existing pvp'ers... WHY are space holding alliances being excluded? We all border empire. Why can't we side with them or fight against them? I believe that if alliances were integrated that this truly could bridge the gap between empire and 0.0 by allowing non alliance members the opportunity to fight alongside 0.0 alliances in empire space, thus making contacts, and friends, and maybe getting invited into 0.0 alliances... As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers. Existing pvp'ers coming in get nothing out of it, and in the end those you want to attract to pvp will get nothing but a negative experience, BECAUSE existing pvp'ers won't be a part of it. What I'd love to see is CCP rework this so that faction warfare becomes a gamewide mechanic by allowing ALL to participate. This is a major system that should get the treatment it deserves. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:36:00 - [3] In short it is because all that would do would be to extend 0.0 to low sec with various alliance vying for control of it. The idea here is to create an environment where there is not a huge fleet granted thats still going to occur but if i understand correctly it will be much harder for them to effectively gather and attack targets as the pvp will be limited to ship types
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:36:00 - [4] In short it is because all that would do would be to extend 0.0 to low sec with various alliance vying for control of it. The idea here is to create an environment where there is not a huge fleet granted thats still going to occur but if i understand correctly it will be much harder for them to effectively gather and attack targets as the pvp will be limited to ship types
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:37:00 - [5] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:32:02 While in concept involving the empires in war is GREAT... I love it, should have always been there, the way this expansion is being done is very much flawed. Essentially the whole point of it is to bring non pvp'ers into pvp. It freezes out the vast majority of existing pvp'ers... WHY are space holding alliances being excluded? We all border empire. Why can't we side with them or fight against them? I believe that if alliances were integrated that this truly could bridge the gap between empire and 0.0 by allowing non alliance members the opportunity to fight alongside 0.0 alliances in empire space, thus making contacts, and friends, and maybe getting invited into 0.0 alliances... As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers. Existing pvp'ers coming in get nothing out of it, and in the end those you want to attract to pvp will get nothing but a negative experience, BECAUSE existing pvp'ers won't be a part of it. What I'd love to see is CCP rework this so that faction warfare becomes a gamewide mechanic by allowing ALL to participate. This is a major system that should get the treatment it deserves. See all I saw there was GREAT WHY BECAUSE CCP ALL. Seriously, what would happen if alliances as a whole were able to join up? I'll tell you what, all the solo players and small gangs would get their bums handed to them by massive lagfest alliance blobs all over empire. At least hold your complaining 'till the expansion is released for cryin' out loud.
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:32:02 While in concept involving the empires in war is GREAT... I love it, should have always been there, the way this expansion is being done is very much flawed. Essentially the whole point of it is to bring non pvp'ers into pvp. It freezes out the vast majority of existing pvp'ers... WHY are space holding alliances being excluded? We all border empire. Why can't we side with them or fight against them? I believe that if alliances were integrated that this truly could bridge the gap between empire and 0.0 by allowing non alliance members the opportunity to fight alongside 0.0 alliances in empire space, thus making contacts, and friends, and maybe getting invited into 0.0 alliances... As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers. Existing pvp'ers coming in get nothing out of it, and in the end those you want to attract to pvp will get nothing but a negative experience, BECAUSE existing pvp'ers won't be a part of it. What I'd love to see is CCP rework this so that faction warfare becomes a gamewide mechanic by allowing ALL to participate. This is a major system that should get the treatment it deserves. See all I saw there was GREAT WHY BECAUSE CCP ALL. Seriously, what would happen if alliances as a whole were able to join up? I'll tell you what, all the solo players and small gangs would get their bums handed to them by massive lagfest alliance blobs all over empire. At least hold your complaining 'till the expansion is released for cryin' out loud.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:40:00 - [7] And they won't be facing pirate blobs? [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:40:00 - [8] And they won't be facing pirate blobs? [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:42:00 - [9] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 01:42:19 Originally by: Jakke Logan And they won't be facing pirate blobs? Oh yes they will be facing pirate blobs, no doubt about that, but do we also want alliance blobs with all their blobbyenss and blobbery? By any chance did you get your name from Tachyon?
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:42:00 - [10] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 01:42:19 Originally by: Jakke Logan And they won't be facing pirate blobs? Oh yes they will be facing pirate blobs, no doubt about that, but do we also want alliance blobs with all their blobbyenss and blobbery? By any chance did you get your name from Tachyon?
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Constance Harme Originally by: Jakke Logan And they won't be facing pirate blobs? Oh yes they will be facing pirate blobs, no doubt about that, but do we also want alliance blobs with all their blobbyenss and blobbery? So you concede that they will be facing blobs. So why is one blob (pirates) better than another (alliances)? [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:43:00 - [12] pirate blobs are significantly smaller than alliance blobs and also as i mentioned above they have some limits in place to make it a bit more even
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Constance Harme Originally by: Jakke Logan And they won't be facing pirate blobs? Oh yes they will be facing pirate blobs, no doubt about that, but do we also want alliance blobs with all their blobbyenss and blobbery? So you concede that they will be facing blobs. So why is one blob (pirates) better than another (alliances)? [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:43:00 - [14] pirate blobs are significantly smaller than alliance blobs and also as i mentioned above they have some limits in place to make it a bit more even
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Jakke Logan So you concede that they will be facing blobs. So why is one blob (pirates) better than another (alliances)? I never said either was better, my point is that one blob is better than two blobs.
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Jakke Logan So you concede that they will be facing blobs. So why is one blob (pirates) better than another (alliances)? I never said either was better, my point is that one blob is better than two blobs.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Colonel Rykef pirate blobs are significantly smaller than alliance blobs and also as i mentioned above they have some limits in place to make it a bit more even Any blob that outnumbers you is too big. You see, this is why the whole idea is flawed... To allow, heck, ENCOURAGE pirates to take advantage of these new mechanics will put the empire players really in a worse position than they are in now. And you exclude alliances, many of which are ANTI pirate... [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Colonel Rykef Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:48:00 - [18] except if the pirates want to take advantage of this they need to be part of a faction, which means they are then open to being targeted by anyone else in the "battle zone" not to mention you have assumed that these pirates will all automatically have the correct size ship for this zone
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Jakke Logan Any blob that outnumbers you is too big. You see, this is why the whole idea is flawed... To allow, heck, ENCOURAGE pirates to take advantage of these new mechanics will put the empire players really in a worse position than they are in now. And you exclude alliances, many of which are ANTI pirate... Your suggesting we fight blob with blob? As I said earlier I'd prefer to stick with one blob rather than two, and as Colonel Rykef has said pirate blobs are smaller than alliance blobs so.. do the math.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Constance Harme Originally by: Jakke Logan Any blob that outnumbers you is too big. You see, this is why the whole idea is flawed... To allow, heck, ENCOURAGE pirates to take advantage of these new mechanics will put the empire players really in a worse position than they are in now. And you exclude alliances, many of which are ANTI pirate... Your suggesting we fight blob with blob? As I said earlier I'd prefer to stick with one blob rather than two, and as Colonel Rykef has said pirate blobs are smaller than alliance blobs so.. do the math. Blobs are a fact of life in EVE. There will always be blobs. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:54:00 - [21] oh please, youre just grumpy because your alliance can't join the fun. I fully agree that big alliances would screw up FW and if you want to join, leave your alliance drama behind.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:59:00 - [22] Going with the RP thing... 0.0 alliances are a ragtag bunch of criminals living in outlawed space trying to build themselves their own empires there. They are essentially rivals of the 4 big empires. A small 'allied to the minmatar republic' in your alliance info doesn't change that.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 01:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Gus Morgan oh please, youre just grumpy because your alliance can't join the fun. I fully agree that big alliances would screw up FW and if you want to join, leave your alliance drama behind. Why shouldn't I be upset if all alliance members get NOTHING out of this expansion? Doesn't that make this expansion have ZERO value to me? Yep. As it stands now, "faction warfare" will be a joke months from now. "Yeah, they added faction warfare, but forgot to invite the pvp'ers... LOL" [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:07:38 Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Gus Morgan oh please, youre just grumpy because your alliance can't join the fun. I fully agree that big alliances would screw up FW and if you want to join, leave your alliance drama behind. Why shouldn't I be upset if all alliance members get NOTHING out of this expansion? Doesn't that make this expansion have ZERO value to me? Yep. As it stands now, "faction warfare" will be a joke months from now. "Yeah, they added faction warfare, but forgot to invite the pvp'ers... LOL" I'm sorry but I dont think anyone is qualified to say what "will be" a joke at any point in the future. And as I understand it factional warfare isnt really for alliances anyway, its to help non pvpers to get into pvp. At least thats how I understand it.
Killer Kelly Caldari Allied Tactical Unit Scalar Federation	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:09:00 - [25] I imagine that if CVA came out in mass to fight for the Amarr side, AAA would have a field day stationcamping in carriers with nobody to stop them. ___________ I Get Money in the Scalar Federation
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:14:00 - [26] Originally by: Constance Harme Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:07:38 Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Gus Morgan oh please, youre just grumpy because your alliance can't join the fun. I fully agree that big alliances would screw up FW and if you want to join, leave your alliance drama behind. Why shouldn't I be upset if all alliance members get NOTHING out of this expansion? Doesn't that make this expansion have ZERO value to me? Yep. As it stands now, "faction warfare" will be a joke months from now. "Yeah, they added faction warfare, but forgot to invite the pvp'ers... LOL" I'm sorry but I dont think anyone is qualified to say what "will be" a joke at any point in the future. And as I understand it factional warfare isnt really for alliances anyway, its to help non pvpers to get into pvp. At least thats how I understand it. All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. Because this expansion is a total zero for the people I play the game with. Honestly, I think this expansion is a huge mistake as it's currently planned. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Mavolio White Nova Industries Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:19:00 - [27] I dont think we have any thing to worry about with big alliances steamrolling over a war region. If for example alliance A send 1000 piolts to fight for amarr then alliance B will just walk in and steal all the systems/space they have left undefended while they mess about in low sec.
B1G DAVE Veto.	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:19:00 - [28] The thing is, its not just huge 0.0 alliances being frozen out of it. It also includes the small lowsec or highsec alliances, for example veto. Although we are essentially one corporation, because we use an alliance structure we are excluded from the feature :( ___________________________________________ Our Home, Our Corp, Our VETO
KarGard	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:19:00 - [29] Originally by: Jakke Logan All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. You get a hoard of new players in lowsec to shoot at as long as CCP's optimisim on people partaking in FW is right.
milllo Billy and the Boingers	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:21:00 - [30] Low sec players have been complaining that targets in lowsec are too rare, leaving them to fight amoungst themselves. This expansion addresses that problem by allowing them to prey on lots of unsuspecting newbies. Pirates don't have to join the factions, they just have to wait for the militia members to come into lowsec to enter complexes and do other content provided in the expansion. Once the playerbase sees that feeding pirates is the whole point of the expansion, most will go back to what they were doing and the expansion will be forgotten.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:21:00 - [31] Originally by: KarGard Originally by: Jakke Logan All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. You get a hoard of new players in lowsec to shoot at as long as CCP's optimisim on people partaking in FW is right. That optimism is as misguided as buying lottery tickets as your retirement plan. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:24:00 - [32] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:24:25 Originally by: Jakke Logan All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. Because this expansion is a total zero for the people I play the game with. Honestly, I think this expansion is a huge mistake as it's currently planned. Considering you get the expansion for free I dont think its that big a problem, besides alliances have more things to worry about like maintaining their own space, I dont really get anything out of it either as I never pvp and never plan to so.. yeah. And again, as I understand it factional warfare is to help non-pvp'ers to get into pvp.
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:24:00 - [33] so just because YOU dont get anything out of this expansion noone should, thats abit selfish isnt it? Do you whine this much every time an expansion comes out that focuses on what you arent doing at the moment? Just be happy that they are expanding diffrent aspects of the game, one day you might grow tired of 0.0 and then it might be nice to try something new, and if not let us atleast enjoy it without the big multibillion alliances steamrolling everyone else and making it their new parkinglot for motherships and titans.
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:26:00 - [34] Originally by: Gus Morgan so just because YOU dont get anything out of this expansion noone should, thats abit selfish isnt it? Be fair now he didn't say that, he said he's not pleased with it, not that he wants it gone (though I suspect thats whats to follow).
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:29:00 - [35] someone quick say blob again...
KarGard	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:29:00 - [36] Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: KarGard You get a hoard of new players in lowsec to shoot at as long as CCP's optimisim on people partaking in FW is right. That optimism is as misguided as buying lottery tickets as your retirement plan. I agree, I don't see many mission runners willing to take the standing hit let alone lose ships and have to deal with pvp in highsec. However Devs beleive otherwise. To be honest a lot of what they are saying reminds me of the rhetoric about lvl 5 missions. But, who knows. FW might prove to be exactally the fun ride that they claim it will be.
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Constance Harme Originally by: Gus Morgan so just because YOU dont get anything out of this expansion noone should, thats abit selfish isnt it? Be fair now he didn't say that, he said he's not pleased with it, not that he wants it gone (though I suspect thats whats to follow). well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man.
Kiviar Caldari Vice-Presidential Action Rangers	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:33:00 - [38] Originally by: Gus Morgan well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man. Unfortunately it might prove that way without 00 alliances, as I imagine a fair number of those nasty lowsec pvpers are salivating at the thought of new rich targets to blast in to dust. ---
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Gus Morgan Originally by: Constance Harme Originally by: Gus Morgan so just because YOU dont get anything out of this expansion noone should, thats abit selfish isnt it? Be fair now he didn't say that, he said he's not pleased with it, not that he wants it gone (though I suspect thats whats to follow). well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man. And it will be open to the "little man" by allowing pirate corps to exploit it? All I can say is that this expansion has nothing for a huge amount of pvp'ers despite being a pvp expansion. CCP better be explaining things FAST or else I suspect they will lose a lot here. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:34:00 - [40] Even in a 0.0 alliance, even without creating a second account, you can get in on the fun. Just roll a new alt, train him to use a webber/scram, and go find a frigate-sized combat complex. FW actually sounds a lot like "noob mercs" on an incredible scale... I'm sure it'll be half 0.0 alliance alts and half high-sec missionbear alts. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:35:00 - [41] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:37:21 Originally by: Gus Morgan well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man. Interesting point, there are probably lots of reasons the devs didnt include alliances (probably isnt absent-mindedness since corps are allowed in), there could for instance be lots of balancing issues. Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik someone quick say blob again... Okay just for you... blob. Originally by: Jakke Logan And it will be open to the "little man" by allowing pirate corps to exploit it? All I can say is that this expansion has nothing for a huge amount of pvp'ers despite being a pvp expansion. CCP better be explaining things FAST or else I suspect they will lose a lot here. Yes its a PVP based expansion but again as I understand it, its to help the non-pvpers to get into pvp.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Constance Harme Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:37:21 Originally by: Gus Morgan well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man. Interesting point, there are probably lots of reasons the devs didnt include alliances (probably isnt absent-mindedness since corps are allowed in), there could for instance be lots of balancing issues. Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik someone quick say blob again... Okay just for you... blob. Originally by: Jakke Logan And it will be open to the "little man" by allowing pirate corps to exploit it? All I can say is that this expansion has nothing for a huge amount of pvp'ers despite being a pvp expansion. CCP better be explaining things FAST or else I suspect they will lose a lot here. Yes its a PVP based expansion but again as I understand it, its to help the non-pvpers to get into pvp. And it's already been explained 1000x over how it already FAILS at this. It's not going to help anyone get into pvp by excluding pvp'ers. It's just going to give pirates a bonanza that lasts a few days. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Jakke Logan And it will be open to the "little man" by allowing pirate corps to exploit it? All I can say is that this expansion has nothing for a huge amount of pvp'ers despite being a pvp expansion. CCP better be explaining things FAST or else I suspect they will lose a lot here. that is the point, only 20% of eve players are in 0.0 If this expansion makes all of them leave then it will make another 30% join becuase they will have fun PvPing without going into 0.0 Also even more people will join because after playing FW and telling everyone how awesome it is, and then those players bored with FW will go into now empty 0.0 space and start taking it over! Also this all ties into the changed to 0.0 warfare which is going to be all timer based soon according to the GD forum for the past 2 months. But this is all based on the idea that people in 0.0 space give a **** about new FW stuff, they don't this expansion isn't for them.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 01:32:02 As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers.. As opposed to being cannon-fodder for the Great Zero Alliances when they join those?? LOL
Kiviar Caldari Vice-Presidential Action Rangers	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Even in a 0.0 alliance, even without creating a second account, you can get in on the fun. Just roll a new alt, train him to use a webber/scram, and go find a frigate-sized combat complex. You know I wouldn't at all be surprised if that was part of ccp's plan for FW. Make it so it is low sp alt friendly, and then people will get a taste for pvp and start doing it with their mains. Also blob. ---
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:43:00 - [46] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 02:44:06 Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Jakke Logan And it will be open to the "little man" by allowing pirate corps to exploit it? All I can say is that this expansion has nothing for a huge amount of pvp'ers despite being a pvp expansion. CCP better be explaining things FAST or else I suspect they will lose a lot here. that is the point, only 20% of eve players are in 0.0 If this expansion makes all of them leave then it will make another 30% join becuase they will have fun PvPing without going into 0.0 Also even more people will join because after playing FW and telling everyone how awesome it is, and then those players bored with FW will go into now empty 0.0 space and start taking it over! Also this all ties into the changed to 0.0 warfare which is going to be all timer based soon according to the GD forum for the past 2 months. But this is all based on the idea that people in 0.0 space give a ** about new FW stuff, they don't this expansion isn't for them. Your hardcore makes up the majority of the revenue in any MMO. Screw yoour hardcore in favor of a new "target audience" = dead MMORPG. See Star Wars Galaxies. Develop your game for the players you have. Not the players you wish you had. [-FOAD] Corp CEO**
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:46:00 - [47] are you one of those pirates? because if you are get ready to eaten alive.
Forge Lag	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:46:00 - [48] Zerg blobbing of gates may indeed end up being worse problem than 0.0 powerhouses taking over the most profitable plexes. Still for my Gallente guy the biggest issue is severing path to Jita and my Caldari R+D agents, figting against more numerous foe, killing npc ships with crap drops. We carebears stay in highsec because it is profitable and this looks like nothing but opportunity costs to me. More tags you say? Like in L5 you say? The tags that sell for NPC price you say? The tags to buy T2 crap with Gallente Navy stamped on it? I care.
Dapper Danny Minmatar Biogen Explorations	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Dapper Danny on 16/05/2008 02:51:40 Edited by: Dapper Danny on 16/05/2008 02:51:23 Originally by: KarGard I agree, I don't see many mission runners willing to take the standing hit let alone lose ships and have to deal with pvp in highsec. However Devs beleive otherwise. Been thinking about that problem myself, given what we know that the gates into the actual places to fight over are restricted by ship types id see people not so worried about loosing ships to much (id say the frigate, cruiser restricted areas will get the most traffic since they are the cheapest ship types for most people and the least worried about if lost). Clones would be a problem. Given (this an assumption of my own) that the two sides are Cal vs Gal, Amarr vs Mini most people will join up for their home team i would assume and most of those races have pretty poor starting faction rep with the opposing side to begin with (this would all change if killing Amarr players in FW also lowered your caldari faction like it does currently running missions for Minmatar against Amarr), it shouldn't matter to much about loosing more standing towards just a single faction, which in most cases is your worst one to begin with (unless you've managed to get all of them into the positive in which case yes FW would be a big turn off). If you do loose some standing with your primary FW opponents allies id deffinately see alot of people not bothering like you said, heres hoping they,ve realised this and made it so you only loose standing with your direct FW Faction opponent. I sure as heck wouldnt join the FW if it meant I'd fubar my Caldari standing in anyway (couldnt careless for my Amarr its already -5) by fighting the Amarr Millitia, id be loosing far to much freedom for far little gain. Heres hoping. *- The Boot.ini Incident glances off your EvE Install causing no real damage! -*
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:48:00 - [50] Originally by: Jakke Logan And it's already been explained 1000x over how it already FAILS at this. It's not going to help anyone get into pvp by excluding pvp'ers. It's just going to give pirates a bonanza that lasts a few days. You can't say what it fails at UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY SEE IT FAIL, so kindly quitteth thou ***ing, please remove your head from your anus and wait and see. If when its released it turns out to be a pile of steaming doggy ** I'll let you gloat all you want and the devs will already be at work appeasing you.
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation Delta.Green	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:52:00 - [51] Edited by: Parsival on 16/05/2008 02:52:33 Originally by: Constance Harme Yes its a PVP based expansion but again as I understand it, its to help the non-pvpers to get into pvp. I suspect its going to be an expansion which helps the non-pvpers pretend to get into PvP. Since when has opting out been part of the EVE ethos? Two years ago when I first heard people talking about factional warfare I was excited... now this is all so meh.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Constance Harme Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:37:21 Yes its a PVP based expansion but again as I understand it, its to help the non-pvpers to get into pvp. And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION... How does one pay for it and why would he if his only purpose is as cannon-fodder for someone elses master plan?? After two and a half years I can pay for a few ships, but I still can't see the motivation... and don't say "Fun?", because burning up MY resources to further somebody ELSES agenda isn't fun in my book.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Dapper Danny Originally by: KarGard I agree, I don't see many mission runners willing to take the standing hit let alone lose ships and have to deal with pvp in highsec. However Devs beleive otherwise. Been thinking about that problem myself, given what we know that the gates into the actual places to fight over are restricted by ship types id see people not so worried about loosing ships to much. It's not the frigates they'd worry about losing. It's their Navy Ravens that they mission with in Motsu that they'd lose sleep over. Being in a militia is going to be like being at war, not a thing you turn off and turn on twice per day. I, for one, look forward to taking a covert ops or recon into enemy space and probing them down in their missions. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:54:00 - [54] An enormous amount comes down to implementation. Right now, it's impossible for the casual player to find a dozen friends to gang up with. Ganging with strangers is too deadly. If the FW militia system does nothing more than improve the odds that your pickup gang consists of people who are actually on your side, it will be full of win. Of course, we don't know if it will do that, yet. But it's far too soon to conclude that it won't. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:57:00 - [55] Edited by: Constance Harme on 16/05/2008 02:59:40 Originally by: Ira Theos And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION... How does one pay for it and why would he if his only purpose is as cannon-fodder for someone elses master plan?? After two and a half years I can pay for a few ships, but I still can't see the motivation... and don't say "Fun?", because burning up MY resources to further somebody ELSES agenda isn't fun in my book. I never said it's going to be fun... or cheap, but thats what its supposedly for and I have no idea what the devs have in mind, but what I'm getting at is that the expansion is not their to cater for alliances, I cant say whats going to happen in the future as its not even released yet but thats how I've interpreted the information. Originally by: Marlenus An enormous amount comes down to implementation. Right now, it's impossible for the casual player to find a dozen friends to gang up with. Ganging with strangers is too deadly. If the FW militia system does nothing more than improve the odds that your pickup gang consists of people who are actually on your side, it will be full of win. Of course, we don't know if it will do that, yet. But it's far too soon to conclude that it won't. I dont think you actually need to gang with them, and since they're already in your faction they might not be able to shoot you.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 02:58:00 - [56] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 16/05/2008 02:59:26 Originally by: Ira Theos And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION... Bolded the part you don't seem able to wrap your brain around. Going to 0.0 != PVP. 0.0 is held by a few dozen major alliances... because most are hierarchies, that means a few dozen dudes indirectly control all the opportunities for good PVP in 0.0. FW allows us to join NPC corps and NPC alliances that have permanent empire war. It allows people who want to PVP to try it in several fun ways (complexes, missions, roaming etc) without having to do all the other stuff that you have to do in 0.0, namely, paying tax, doing a weekly mining op, following somebody else's orders. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Constance Harme	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker What Joe just said. Thats what I'm getting at.
Dapper Danny Minmatar Biogen Explorations	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:06:00 - [58] Edited by: Dapper Danny on 16/05/2008 03:08:21 Edited by: Dapper Danny on 16/05/2008 03:07:54 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker It's not the frigates they'd worry about losing. It's their Navy Ravens that they mission with in Motsu that they'd lose sleep over. Being in a militia is going to be like being at war, not a thing you turn off and turn on twice per day. I, for one, look forward to taking a covert ops or recon into enemy space and probing them down in their missions. I see your point hmmm... hadnt fully thought of that, would be good if joining the millitia was on a clone by clone basis, Jump clone 1 is in jump clone 2 isnt... although then it would be almost risk free realy, then again might be something they need to do to keep FW from basicly being avoided by the same people its supposedly aimed at, if the rewards for FW though where as good as mission running I could see myself still doing it, although id see myself going back to Minni space first since im sure it would be alot safer mission running in a region where most of the people im flying around are on the same side as me :p . Doubt many Amarr militia members would be able to get far enough into Mini space to be a threat while missioning apart from Covert Ops, like you id deffinately like to try, being a covert op pilot myself :p *- The Boot.ini Incident glances off your EvE Install causing no real damage! -*
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Marlenus An enormous amount comes down to implementation. Right now, it's impossible for the casual player to find a dozen friends to gang up with. Ganging with strangers is too deadly. If the FW militia system does nothing more than improve the odds that your pickup gang consists of people who are actually on your side, it will be full of win. Of course, we don't know if it will do that, yet. But it's far too soon to conclude that it won't. Exactly. WHY would anyone gang with strangers when the mechanics still allow this to be used for griefing with impunity? Stupid to even think of implimenting this expansion without fixing that. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:10:00 - [60] Edited by: MotherMoon on 16/05/2008 03:09:43 Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Marlenus An enormous amount comes down to implementation. Right now, it's impossible for the casual player to find a dozen friends to gang up with. Ganging with strangers is too deadly. If the FW militia system does nothing more than improve the odds that your pickup gang consists of people who are actually on your side, it will be full of win. Of course, we don't know if it will do that, yet. But it's far too soon to conclude that it won't. Exactly. WHY would anyone gang with strangers when the mechanics still allow this to be used for griefing with impunity? Stupid to even think of implimenting this expansion without fixing that. live dev blog said you will get protection in FW gangs. didn't it?
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:11:00 - [61] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 16/05/2008 02:59:26 Originally by: Ira Theos And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION... Bolded the part you don't seem able to wrap your brain around. Going to 0.0 != PVP. 0.0 is held by a few dozen major alliances... because most are hierarchies, that means a few dozen dudes indirectly control all the opportunities for good PVP in 0.0. FW allows us to join NPC corps and NPC alliances that have permanent empire war. It allows people who want to PVP to try it in several fun ways (complexes, missions, roaming etc) without having to do all the other stuff that you have to do in 0.0, namely, paying tax, doing a weekly mining op, following somebody else's orders. Believe me Joe... I'm with YOU on all your points, but I'll bet you this is just CCP's way of trying to introduce you to PvP in such a way that CCP "thinks" will induce you to move to zero and join an alliance.
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Kiviar Originally by: Gus Morgan well he basically said he wants it to be the property of alliance warfare which will pretty much mean it would become impossible to participate in for the little man. Unfortunately it might prove that way without 00 alliances, as I imagine a fair number of those nasty lowsec pvpers are salivating at the thought of new rich targets to blast in to dust. well if youre joining factional warfare, its a fight you want and a fight you are gonna get. And the only people ive seen blobbing are either antipirate alliances sweeping through or 0.0 alliances moving into some lowsec pocket to restock. then again, if you count 5 cruisers on a roaming op as a blob...
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:17:00 - [63] Err, what? "WHY are space holding alliances being excluded?" Space holding Alliances are the ones most likely to do factional warfare because they are the only on with a safe area to go back to once they have picked sides. ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwaMHJzruDU&feature=related
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:17:00 - [64] Originally by: Jakke Logan WHY would anyone gang with strangers when the mechanics still allow this to be used for griefing with impunity? Stupid to even think of implimenting this expansion without fixing that. You have a lot of opinions for somebody who obviously didn't listen to the dev blog, and has never seen the expansion. Why all the hate? Is your main in an RP corp? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Ira Theos Believe me Joe... I'm with YOU on all your points, but I'll bet you this is just CCP's way of trying to introduce you to PvP in such a way that CCP "thinks" will induce you to move to zero and join an alliance. I think they quite explicitly say that they want to make PVP available for people who don't want to go to 0.0 and don't want to deal with alliances or even corporations. They also see it as a way to liven up lowsec. I agree that it all depends on implementation but what I've heard so far doesn't sound bad. Except... ranks. Somebody asked what rewards you can get and the dev said your higher standings can earn you a better rank. Somebody asked what the rewards of higher ranks are, and the dev said higher faction standings. WTF? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Kuzya Morozov Gallente The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:40:00 - [66] ITT eve warsong gulch
Kvirie Caldari Children of the Wind	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:45:00 - [67] Originally by: B1G DAVE The thing is, its not just huge 0.0 alliances being frozen out of it. It also includes the small lowsec or highsec alliances, for example veto. Although we are essentially one corporation, because we use an alliance structure we are excluded from the feature :( Why use an alliance if you're one corporation? The no alliance thing is kinda odd, but if Alliances are suppose to be groups of corps that are able to build their own empire, it doesn't make much sense for a would-be empire to join another empire's military imo.
IVeige	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:51:00 - [68] Well im happy for pirates.. more low sec systems and plenty of new faces Pirates are you ready to camp, murder and steal all those innocent victims wannabee FW pvper ? i mean, you should open your recruitement ..your gonna have lots of work to do, so buy some beer, pizza and you know..the piwat stuff. I think you will be busy.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 03:54:00 - [69] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 03:56:27 Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 03:55:48 Originally by: IVeige Well im happy for pirates.. more low sec systems and plenty of new faces Pirates are you ready to camp, murder and steal all those innocent victims wannabee FW pvper ? i mean, you should open your recruitement ..your gonna have lots of work to do, so buy some beer, pizza and you know..the piwat stuff. I think you will be busy. This will last at most days. Until the empire pvp dabblers realize that participating in FW=lots of pirate ganks=lost ISK and quit. Which is why I think this expansion as currently envisioned is fatally flawed and doomed to be irrelevant within hours to days after published to TQ. Wouldn't the empire FW warriors have a better shot at not being pirate bait if the 0.0 alliances could align with factions and be there to help them? Why do people not go to lowsec today? Pirate blobs, gatecamps, gankers, and generally no better profit potential than running missions/salvaging/mining in highsec. This is the main barrier to pvp in that area. FW changes this in what way? It doesn't. I predict that the empire wars will be the most UNFOUGHT on record. Unless they actually have NPC fleets fight. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:01:00 - [70] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 03:56:27 Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 03:55:48 Originally by: IVeige Well im happy for pirates.. more low sec systems and plenty of new faces Pirates are you ready to camp, murder and steal all those innocent victims wannabee FW pvper ? i mean, you should open your recruitement ..your gonna have lots of work to do, so buy some beer, pizza and you know..the piwat stuff. I think you will be busy. This will last at most days. Until the empire pvp dabblers realize that participating in FW=lots of pirate ganks=lost ISK and quit. Which is why I think this expansion as currently envisioned is fatally flawed and doomed to be irrelevant within hours to days after published to TQ. Wouldn't the empire FW warriors have a better shot at not being pirate bait if the 0.0 alliances could align with factions and be there to help them? Why do people not go to lowsec today? Pirate blobs, gatecamps, gankers, and generally no better profit potential than running missions/salvaging/mining in highsec. This is the main barrier to pvp in that area. FW changes this in what way? It doesn't. I predict that the empire wars will be the most UNFOUGHT on record. Unless they actually have NPC fleets fight. accord to your logic this would apply to low sec corps as well... but it doesn't, we fight back. it's fun. FW will add another enemy... if you think people won't go into low sec in FW because of pirates... our wrong, FW will not change anything in this repect. it basicly turns part of space into 0.0 for factions. and like in allaince wars in 0.0 allainces won't put up with pirates.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:07:00 - [71] Lowsec corps are the smallest minority in the game. near 80% are in highsec, near 20% in 0.0, far less than 10% in lowsec. Lowsec corps and alliances as they currently are fall into two categories: 1. 0.0 wannabes, ie: gather strength in lowsec before pushing out to 0.0. 2. Pirates and griefers, ie: kill the carebears who wander in here. Faction warfare could change all that by imposing some sort of order on lowsec, by involving the alliances who could, via faction warfare, impose some order there. Instead all it's going to do as currently planned is lure out some more carebears who will give the pirates a (short lived) bonanza before the system is completely abandoned for all practical purposes. This system will end up resulting in not one iota of change from the highsec-lowsec-0.0 paradigm that currently exists. [-FOAD] Corp CEO
Lars Lodar Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:21:00 - [72] I don't see how FW exlude existing pvp'ers. Devs said in the past that individual players and corps can do FW so there is nothing stopping corps or players in alliances from doing FW. It might not be a good idea to divert 0.0 resources for FW, but there is nothing stopping you from participating. Plus, it'd be completely unbalanced if large 0.0 alliances steamrolled smaller corps and individuals who want to experience a lighter version of 0.0. This will give empire dwellers a sense of what it is to use intel channels, deal with constant hostiles, fight for sovereignty, and provide logistical support to a large swath of players with a common goal much like being in a 0.0 alliance. The stats and ranking systems act as a good way to gauge the player's and factional performance much like it is for 0.0 alliance Killboards. I think FW is a great opportunity of pvp'ers and non pvp'ers alike to have some good old fashioned pew pew w/o 0.0 drama. Plus this will give experienced pilots a chance to teach a new generation of people the thrill of pvp. Heck, it'd be a good venue to recruit potential pilots to 0.0 corps who need industrial types who are also willing to fight.
Mioelnir Minmatar KULT Production Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:30:00 - [73] Factional Warfare is about: Introduce mission runners that like to, to pvp. Factional warfare agents send you deep into enemy space and your mission becomes a publically-viewable beacon once you are in it. The PvE content itself is easier than a normal mission of a comparable level. The hard part is to dodge hostile forces and get out again. Imho, objective accomplished and oh boy does this sound fun. Introduce people to pvp outside of an agent/mission frame and into lowsec The choke points will still be dangerous, as will the lowsec in general. But, the area is target rich, both for you as for your factional enemies and the pirates. As there are still no bubbles in lowsec, you learn to doge camps and once you reach the combat sites, at least ship classes will be balanced. This also introduces you to the whole theme of fighting over space and ressources. Imho, objective accomplished again. And now that you have licked blood and liked it, you eventually want to fight for your own space instead of some NPC's - and head out to 0.0 and join a player-empire. I won't be a part of it, but I totally like it.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Jakke Logan Lowsec corps are the smallest minority in the game. near 80% are in highsec, near 20% in 0.0, far less than 10% in lowsec. Lowsec corps and alliances as they currently are fall into two categories: 1. 0.0 wannabes, ie: gather strength in lowsec before pushing out to 0.0. 2. Pirates and griefers, ie: kill the carebears who wander in here. Faction warfare could change all that by imposing some sort of order on lowsec, by involving the alliances who could, via faction warfare, impose some order there. Instead all it's going to do as currently planned is lure out some more carebears who will give the pirates a (short lived) bonanza before the system is completely abandoned for all practical purposes. This system will end up resulting in not one iota of change from the highsec-lowsec-0.0 paradigm that currently exists. by that I guess you mean foundation, eve uni, and NTMZ are doing a bad job in low sec? because last I checked were still breaking up pirate camps in MH. you know that and going into 0.0 space.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.05.16 04:52:00 - [75] Well if pirates wanted more targets this is sure going to do it. Miz Stelth Bomerz iz the ****nit.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:10:00 - [76] Originally by: Megan Maynard Well if pirates wanted more targets this is sure going to do it. Yes, for what, a week or two at most, before the "pvp lite" players realize that they are at just as much a disadvantage at they are now going into lowsec, and that thanks to the flawed design in FW, can't even join an alliance and still take part in it. The only solution to this would be a hideously bad one, and that would be to introduce CONCORD into lowsec to protect them, in the form of the faction navy ships. Fact of the matter is, there is a reason why blobs happen in EVE: Numbers are everything. The side that has both the initiative (ie: gatecamper) and the numbers (blob) is going to beat a small gang every single time. Again, I petition CCP to delay this expansion until these issues are resolved. Better to not release this expansion AT ALL than to release it as it is currently planned. Alliances as a whole should be able to join factions and be allowed to participate. That will help protect the small gangs out in lowsec because the powerful 0.0 alliances will be the CONCORD of lowsec. What better to introduce newer players into testing the pvp waters than putting them in a situation where they are automatically fighting on the same side as established pvp alliances?
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:14:00 - [77] Edited by: In4r4 on 16/05/2008 13:15:14 Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Megan Maynard Well if pirates wanted more targets this is sure going to do it. Yes, for what, a week or two at most, before the "pvp lite" players realize that they are at just as much a disadvantage at they are now going into lowsec, and that thanks to the flawed design in FW, can't even join an alliance and still take part in it. The only solution to this would be a hideously bad one, and that would be to introduce CONCORD into lowsec to protect them, in the form of the faction navy ships. Fact of the matter is, there is a reason why blobs happen in EVE: Numbers are everything. The side that has both the initiative (ie: gatecamper) and the numbers (blob) is going to beat a small gang every single time. Again, I petition CCP to delay this expansion until these issues are resolved. Better to not release this expansion AT ALL than to release it as it is currently planned. Alliances as a whole should be able to join factions and be allowed to participate. That will help protect the small gangs out in lowsec because the powerful 0.0 alliances will be the CONCORD of lowsec. What better to introduce newer players into testing the pvp waters than putting them in a situation where they are automatically fighting on the same side as established pvp alliances? In 3 different threads you declare FW will die in a week because pirates will camp gates and make it hard for the newbies to take part, but your answer is to allow alliances to take part.......who would camp the gates and stop anyone getting there to take part. Many people WILL dabble in FW, hate it and never try it again, if 5% of the people who do try it, like it, learn how to pvp, and god forbid actually try to fight they pirate gate camps, then FW will be a success. Edit: Oh that and the load of bored with pos war and laggy 0.0 pvpers that are going to jump all over FW when its launched.FW is full of win /end
Gunner Dark	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:20:00 - [78] Sucks to be CVA huh mr OP
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:24:00 - [79] FW is not going to get anyone into pvp who wouldn't have done so eventually under the current system. Back when I was in Empire I hated lowsec. Wouldn't go there for anything. Why do it? You are just pirate bait. Missons that go there don't reward you one bit more for the risk. I did later on do some gang pvp out in lowsec, which can be fun. But it's much more fun out in 0.0 where you can actually OWN the space you are defending, or take the space you are raiding. Lowsec is really the most useless space in EVE, since it's low in rewards, and highest in danger. I just don't see this system as currently proposed as really changing any of that, nor am I really certain that the way it is now even NEEDS to be changed. If anything, I think that the current lowsec space would be better used if it became conquerable by alliances... Who would have to be part of that Empire's faction of course, who would "run" it for them.
Ralara Caldari D00M.	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:31:00 - [80] Originally by: Jakke Logan And they won't be facing pirate blobs? show me a pirate blob of 400 ships with capitals, titans and moms... -- "I didn't join Triumvirate, I joined D00M.".
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:33:00 - [81] So in your opinion, everyone should be forced into the blob, alliances reaping the rewards of 0.0 should also be at the front and in charge of FW ? Thats ********, you underestimate the average joe in an alliance who has no hand in the running of alliances, who never gets to see any of the billions of isk alliances make in 0.0, players who's job it is to get lagged out for 6 hrs in an alarm clock op with 150 other people in the middle of the week. These are the players that will make FW work. FW needs none of the politiking and ego stroking that comes when the big alliances get involved. Care bears will stay carebearing, 0.0 alliances likely dont care (nor to be honest want their members swanning off doing FW when they have space to defend) and everyone else has FW . Its amusing NONE of the big alliance leaders have spoke out about this, they are not interested in FW.
Lorieen AQ Militis Seprentia	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:38:00 - [82] Originally by: Jakke Logan All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. They said they are adding a few new faction cruisers and the 4th missing amarr frigate. You mean no one in you alliance can use those? Getting Zero my a$$...
Talic Xeron Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.16 13:55:00 - [83] Originally by: Jakke Logan FW is not going to get anyone into pvp who wouldn't have done so eventually under the current system . . . BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH . . . If anything, I think that the current lowsec space would be better used if it became conquerable by alliances... Who would have to be part of that Empire's faction of course, who would "run" it for them. A few things, firstly I think that you are absolutely wrong with nearly everything you say. I'm sick of you saying that they're keeping all the pvp'ers out of FW, get off your high horse, alliance players are not the ONLY pvp'ers. Besides, sometime sI find myself questioning some of their member's abilities to actually pvp, seeing as all they ever do is blob. If CCP were to include 0.0 alliances then I would feel that FW would be severely flawed, and that it should be delayed much the way you do because it doesn't include them. All including them will do is make it no fun / pointless for anyone who isn't in an alliance. It would just make it 0.0 with a 'fake' owner, fake being the faction. What would happen per se when this so called faction war was over, who would own the low sec system then, your 0.0 alliance, or the faction. I'm sure you'd hear tons of ** if the 0.0 lost it because then you're taking something a player owns, and that never goes over too well. Who would own systems that an alliance didn't claim? lets say a system during the FW was held by members from random corps, etc. Who owns it then? And if they were allowed to keep ownership, it would ultimately result in loss of a fair number of suscribers. Those being pirates, like me. There would be no low-sec, because it would all be new property of 0.0 allainces. Besides, pirates never were into owning space, it's not our thing. In short, having players in any way, shape, or form claim systems in THEIR name / alliances name, will cause way to many problems. I agree with another poster, don't remember who, that the way I see it 0.0 alliances are/should be seen as rivals of the big factions, seeing as they're claiming their own space for themselves. Therefore, if they would wish to take part in a factional war, they should have to disband and then take up arms. I will admit, logically, that it would then make sense if 0.0 could war with the factions, but for game mechanic reasons, that will never fly. Now would you please, get off the soap box and stop complaining about this. FINE you think it will fail after a month or so, we GET IT! So, unless you have something new to say, stop saying the same old ** over and over.
Ralara Caldari D00M.	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:02:00 - [84] Originally by: Ira Theos And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION.. Cost? Are you kidding? How do you think we guys in 0.0 or Low Sec manage it? Same way you guys in empire do - missions, ratting, mining etc for the most part. It doesn't cost a lot to PvP. Take you're average mission runner doing level 3 or 4 missions. You already have a combat ship, you know how to tank, what damage types are, resistances, cap usage, how to align etc... you know what warp scrambling is, what webbing is, what ECM is and what sensor damping is. So get a ship - cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship - or even a frigate or whatever - insure it, fit some weapons on there and off you go. Take a Torp Raven - it's PvP setup is slightly different from a torp mission raven, but the basic idea is the same - rack of torps, some balistic control systems, a shield tank. Only extras are a MWD and a warp scrambler or something. Ship costs about 90m isk - insure it for 30 odd million, get 105m back payout. Tech 2 mods cost what, 30m for the lot, at the most. So you stand to lose about 60m isk tops, if you die. So what? That's Worlds Collide lvl 4 ran once or twice with salvaging. That's Guristas Extravaganza run once or twice etc. It's about 2 or 3 hours worth of missions to get back to where you were before - some of these people do 4 hours of missions a night. I really, really can't see why people say that "cost" or "losing a ship" is something to be afraid of - as long as you still have your mission ship you can recoup the losses in a couple of horus and set out and do it again. That's how I've mostly done it. The only ship I've never taken into a dangerous situation was my ratting raven. As long as I had that in 0.0, I knew no matter what I lost (and I've lost ships with 400-700m fittings) I could always recoup it. -- "I didn't join Triumvirate, I joined D00M.".
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Colonel Rykef except if the pirates want to take advantage of this they need to be part of a faction No they dont, gate camping contested systems for the win, all the empire people wont know what hit them. -----
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:20:00 - [86] Edited by: Ayari on 16/05/2008 14:21:12 Regarding pirates having an impact on FW, I'd just like to point out that although RP Alliances won't be able to fully take part in Faction Warfare, they will be able to engage pirates. I expect that a few RP Alliances will be showing their faces in the FW zones to keep the pirates in check. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Ayari I expect that a few RP Alliances will be showing their faces in the FW zones to keep the pirates in check. So will a lot of 0.0 alliances, why bother roaming when you know exactly where lots of easy targets are gonna be trying to do their PVP missions. -----
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:31:00 - [88] In 0.0 there is motivation to pvp: protect the space you OWN. Plus, the rewards are higher. I can replace a fully fitted battleship in a couple hours ratting. One good rat session a week of a few hours and I can afford several frigs/cruisers and a couple battleships. Can't get that out of lowsec.
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:33:00 - [89] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Ayari I expect that a few RP Alliances will be showing their faces in the FW zones to keep the pirates in check. So will a lot of 0.0 alliances, why bother roaming when you know exactly where lots of easy targets are gonna be trying to do their PVP missions. Ugh, that would be horrible. 0.0 Alliance blobs shutting down Faction Warfare by turning pirate and just killing everyone who tries to do it. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:35:00 - [90] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Ayari I expect that a few RP Alliances will be showing their faces in the FW zones to keep the pirates in check. So will a lot of 0.0 alliances, why bother roaming when you know exactly where lots of easy targets are gonna be trying to do their PVP missions. Why not? I guess that's what's in FW for us. This is why I believe that this is going to go over like the jump freighters did... Jump freighters, like FW, are a nice idea, but they were poorly conceived and executed. Remember them doing a Dev blog on "we thought everyone would want jump freighters, how come no one us using them?" The answer of course was that they gimped the cargo capacity and jump range of them too much to compete with other options, such as carriers and rorquals... I fully expect a "we thought Faction Warfare was cool, how come no one is bothering with it?" blog a couple months after release. The answer of course is that this pvp expansion leaves OUT the pvp'ers in the game (0.0) and harms those who they want participating (empire corps) because our only FW content will be blowing them up.
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:45:00 - [91] Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Ayari I expect that a few RP Alliances will be showing their faces in the FW zones to keep the pirates in check. So will a lot of 0.0 alliances, why bother roaming when you know exactly where lots of easy targets are gonna be trying to do their PVP missions. Why not? I guess that's what's in FW for us. This is why I believe that this is going to go over like the jump freighters did... Jump freighters, like FW, are a nice idea, but they were poorly conceived and executed. Remember them doing a Dev blog on "we thought everyone would want jump freighters, how come no one us using them?" The answer of course was that they gimped the cargo capacity and jump range of them too much to compete with other options, such as carriers and rorquals... I fully expect a "we thought Faction Warfare was cool, how come no one is bothering with it?" blog a couple months after release. The answer of course is that this pvp expansion leaves OUT the pvp'ers in the game (0.0) and harms those who they want participating (empire corps) because our only FW content will be blowing them up. I find it amusing that you think the only people who can pvp live in 0.0, imho being on a killmail with 50+ other ppl doesnt = pvp, infact the avergae low sec belt pirate is likely a better pvper than joe alliance member.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 14:55:00 - [92] Pirates good pvp'ers? <snickers> No question there are some who are. But don't get me started. Pirates, by definition, jump on those weaker than themselves. They don't fight fair. They ambush, gatecamp, etc. They largely jump pve players who, because of the difference between pvp and pve have to fly ships that aren't fitted well for pvp. Come on... At least in 0.0, it's your fleet vs another alliance's fleet... You are both expecting a fight, and are prepared and fitted for it. Trust me, that's a lot more challenging than taking a ship, fitting a cloak, and waiting for industrials to jump through a gate.
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:02:00 - [93] Originally by: Jakke Logan Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 14:59:34 0.0 player good pvpers lol <snickers> No question there are some who are. But don't get me started. 0.0 roamers, by definition, jump on those weaker than themselves. They don't fight fair. They ambush, gatecamp, etc. They largely jump pve players ratting in belts who, because of the difference between pvp and pve have to fly ships that aren't fitted well for pvp. I'm not saying this to knock 0.0 roamers, this is just the nature of what they do. roamers aren't used to going toe to toe with equals or betters because this is exactly the situation they try to avoid, and thus, only do so when they make a mistake. fixed
Talic Xeron Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:09:00 - [94] Well, obviously you read none of what I posted, but no big deal, you clearly don't have the attention span for it. HOW do you call blobbing REAL pvp in any way shape or form? Most of the pirates I know, are hardcore pvp'ers. Yes, most of our kills come from pve'ers and those who don't pvp regularly, but when we find someone who does, we love it, it makes it all so much more exciting. Another thing we've done is some empire warring, thats good fun, so long as your target actually comes out and plays. We've been hti or miss with that, the corp that did, we had a good amount of fun with. There was no blobbing done, and both sides knew to expect a fight. So don't just knock pirates because of your high and mighty 0.0 alliance stance, when all you do is blob.
Jakke Logan Caldari F Off And Die	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:23:00 - [95] Edited by: Jakke Logan on 16/05/2008 15:23:56 Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 yeah, if they allowed 0.0 superpowers into this factional warfare expansion, all it would do is extend the vast fleet battles of 0.0 space into low sec as well, your complaining that its going to "exclude" many players from the expansion, but in reality, if they allowed .0 alliances to fight it would exclude everyone else, because then all of the battlegrounds are going to become is 0.0 debris fields NO corp that isnt part of an alliance will be able to stand against, that is also exclusion my friend, you have your fleet battles against goonswarm or BoB in 0.0, and let the smaller corps that obviously cant compete with you play this expansion, and if your going to complain about it and it really is a big deal to you, then convince your CEO to leave your allinace to fight for empire space in low sec, or just leave your corp/allinance and do it free lance on your own You aren't getting it. The 0.0 alliances WILL be involved anyway. Since lowsec borders nullsec, what is to stop 0.0 fleets from clearing the hubs out? Nothing. Indeed, there will be motivation to do it. First off, 0.0 alliances regularly protect their own pipelines to Empire. I'm certain some of these sites will run close to them. Secondly, there is the griefer motivation to it. Since we aren't allowed to play in this sandbox, we'll rain on it for you. This is why it'd be better for the alliances to be involved directly in faction warfare, so that at least there is motivation to profit from it by playing to it. Which will mean NOT blowing up empire corp pilots aligned to the same faction, since I'd presume that would lower standing and undo progress.
Gunner Dark	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:24:00 - [96] Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Talic Xeron Well, obviously you read none of what I posted, but no big deal, you clearly don't have the attention span for it. HOW do you call blobbing REAL pvp in any way shape or form? Most of the pirates I know, are hardcore pvp'ers. Yes, most of our kills come from pve'ers and those who don't pvp regularly, but when we find someone who does, we love it, it makes it all so much more exciting. Another thing we've done is some empire warring, thats good fun, so long as your target actually comes out and plays. We've been hti or miss with that, the corp that did, we had a good amount of fun with. There was no blobbing done, and both sides knew to expect a fight. So don't just knock pirates because of your high and mighty 0.0 alliance stance, when all you do is blob. And pirates only fight 1 on 1? No, they don't. Look, I know where you guys are coming from and why. You love this expansion as it's designed because it's going to (at least temporarily) lure in some more non pvp'ers for you to gank. All well and good. And I can understand why you don't want the alliances involved in FW, because it would just SUCK for you all to have to face some actual pvp'ers, equipped to pvp, wouldn't it? FW, as conceived will cease to be relevant soon as the empire carebears realize their purpose in it is to provide kills and loot for pirates. Involving the alliances offers at least the possibility of this being mitigated by the possibility of them providing some protection to the empire players. You have yet to come up with 1 actual good reason for allowing alliances is in, and dude if you feel so strongly about this , post with your main and show us what mighty alliance you belong too
Granmethedon III The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:29:00 - [97] Sadly, due to an internet outage, I missed the blog last night, but so far from what I've read it appears that Faction Warfare is being designed as pvp for people who don't want to pvp. Currently in EVE the majority of pvpers are the people who reside in 0.0 or low-sec pirates. 0.0 players won't want to leave their alliances and corps, as that's the major part of their game play up to this point. Nothing will change for pirates other than the possibility of getting some carebears who want to try pvp showing up in their space for ganks. As such, you've got a whole pvp system that's more or less excluding, or at the very best, not encouraging the people in game who currently like to pvp. Lets face it, the vast majority of people who have chosen to stay in empire space is because they haven't wanted to get into the pvp portion of the game; either because the risks are too great and they don't want to lose their stuff, or simply pvp doesn't appeal to them. As it stands, can't see this lasting long and being anything other than a gimmick. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Your optimism is an inspiration to us all... I think I just trolled against my own company though...
Tiirae The New Era HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Jakke Logan I fully expect a "we thought Faction Warfare was cool, how come no one is bothering with it?" blog a couple months after release. I'm sure it will be posted around the same time as your 'I thought FW would suck... but now everyone's doing it and I'm pretending I supported it all along...' thread. There will be one, right?
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:32:00 - [99] Originally by: In4r4 Its amusing NONE of the big alliance leaders have spoke out about this, they are not interested in FW. Are you suuuuure about this? Who's alt do you think Jakke is, anyway? ---------------- [insert signature here]
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:34:00 - [100] Originally by: Granmethedon III Sadly, due to an internet outage, I missed the blog last night, but so far from what I've read it appears that Faction Warfare is being designed as pvp for people who don't want to pvp. Currently in EVE the majority of pvpers are the people who reside in 0.0 or low-sec pirates. 0.0 players won't want to leave their alliances and corps, as that's the major part of their game play up to this point. Nothing will change for pirates other than the possibility of getting some carebears who want to try pvp showing up in their space for ganks. As such, you've got a whole pvp system that's more or less excluding, or at the very best, not encouraging the people in game who currently like to pvp. Lets face it, the vast majority of people who have chosen to stay in empire space is because they haven't wanted to get into the pvp portion of the game; either because the risks are too great and they don't want to lose their stuff, or simply pvp doesn't appeal to them. As it stands, can't see this lasting long and being anything other than a gimmick. something like 70% of players live in empire, of these many are in corps who do low sec and empire wars, you only have too look at the recruitment forums to see loads of pvpers bored with politiking and blob warfare. the elitism shown by pvpers in 0.0 is a joke, pressing f1-fx with 100 ppl requires no skill at all. And there is simply no argument against that. Living in 0.0 and being in an alliance does not make you a great pvper by default.
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:36:00 - [101] Edited by: In4r4 on 16/05/2008 15:36:20 Edited by: In4r4 on 16/05/2008 15:35:57 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: In4r4 Its amusing NONE of the big alliance leaders have spoke out about this, they are not interested in FW. Are you suuuuure about this? Who's alt do you think Jakke is, anyway? Maybe he should have the courage to post with his main then. instead of QQing cause his alliance cant come to low sec for some easy ganks inbetween farming their officer spawns and counting their isk ?
Silvana Kor'ah	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:36:00 - [102] I'm not sure if i understood this right. Alliances are allowed for FW, but only space holding Alliances are not? And they said something about the griefers, about massive standing hit or something. Couldn't understand it though. Would be nice if somebody could clarify
Granmethedon III The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:43:00 - [103] Edited by: Granmethedon III on 16/05/2008 15:43:44 Originally by: In4r4 something like 70% of players live in empire, of these many are in corps who do low sec and empire wars, you only have too look at the recruitment forums to see loads of pvpers bored with politiking and blob warfare. the elitism shown by pvpers in 0.0 is a joke, pressing f1-fx with 100 ppl requires no skill at all. And there is simply no argument against that. Living in 0.0 and being in an alliance does not make you a great pvper by default. At what point did I refer to pvpers in 0.0 being great? I simply suggested that people that wish to pvp will most likely either have gone to 0.0 or be a low sec pirate already... Originally by: CCP Wrangler Your optimism is an inspiration to us all... I think I just trolled against my own company though...
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:43:00 - [104] No, alliances aren't allowed. Basically there are two options: four NPC corps that players can join, and four NPC "alliances" that corporations can join. Thus there's no "boss" in charge of any faction, anybody who wants to fight can do it, when they like and how they like. The OP dislikes this because he's probably a mid-level manager in one of the 0.0 alliances and he's afraid that the real PVPers are going to leave his alliance and stop farming tax revenue to fund his POS projects. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:44:00 - [105] Originally by: Granmethedon III At what point did I refer to pvpers in 0.0 being great? I simply suggested that people that wish to pvp will most likely either go to 0.0 or be a low sec pirate... Er, I think that was a mistake. The pessimistic crap you spewed sounded too similar to the pessimistic crap spewed by the OP, and In4r4 probably thought he'd finally posted with his main... ---------------- [insert signature here]
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:47:00 - [106] Originally by: Granmethedon III Edited by: Granmethedon III on 16/05/2008 15:43:44 Originally by: In4r4 something like 70% of players live in empire, of these many are in corps who do low sec and empire wars, you only have too look at the recruitment forums to see loads of pvpers bored with politiking and blob warfare. the elitism shown by pvpers in 0.0 is a joke, pressing f1-fx with 100 ppl requires no skill at all. And there is simply no argument against that. Living in 0.0 and being in an alliance does not make you a great pvper by default. At what point did I refer to pvpers in 0.0 being great? I simply suggested that people that wish to pvp will most likely either have gone to 0.0 or be a low sec pirate already... I missunderstood, easy to do with all the "only ppl living in 0.0 can pew pew" snobbery on the forum today.
Granmethedon III The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker No, alliances aren't allowed. Basically there are two options: four NPC corps that players can join, and four NPC "alliances" that corporations can join. Thus there's no "boss" in charge of any faction, anybody who wants to fight can do it, when they like and how they like. The OP dislikes this because he's probably a mid-level manager in one of the 0.0 alliances and he's afraid that the real PVPers are going to leave his alliance and stop farming tax revenue to fund his POS projects. The flaw with this is that many people genuinely like the corps that they're currently in. I was genuinely interested in taking part in faction warfare; however, I won't because I won't be leaving my current corp and alliance to do so. I think this alone will dissuade many people from taking part. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Your optimism is an inspiration to us all... I think I just trolled against my own company though...
Granmethedon III The Wild Hunt Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:49:00 - [108] Edited by: Granmethedon III on 16/05/2008 15:52:09 Originally by: In4r4 I missunderstood, easy to do with all the "only ppl living in 0.0 can pew pew" snobbery on the forum today. No probs. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Your optimism is an inspiration to us all... I think I just trolled against my own company though...
Gunner Dark	Posted - 2008.05.16 15:49:00 - [109] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker No, alliances aren't allowed. Basically there are two options: four NPC corps that players can join, and four NPC "alliances" that corporations can join. Thus there's no "boss" in charge of any faction, anybody who wants to fight can do it, when they like and how they like. The OP dislikes this because he's probably a mid-level manager in one of the 0.0 alliances and he's afraid that the real PVPers are going to leave his alliance and stop farming tax revenue to fund his POS projects. This ^^ im sure some of the small > mid sized alliance leaders are worried cause their grunts will choose small scale , easy to get into pvp over funding a faceless leaders next supercap.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.16 16:01:00 - [110] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/05/2008 16:03:26 Originally by: Jakke Logan While in concept involving the empires in war is GREAT... I love it, should have always been there, the way this expansion is being done is very much flawed. Essentially the whole point of it is to bring non pvp'ers into pvp. It freezes out the vast majority of existing pvp'ers... WHY are space holding alliances being excluded? We all border empire. Why can't we side with them or fight against them? I believe that if alliances were integrated that this truly could bridge the gap between empire and 0.0 by allowing non alliance members the opportunity to fight alongside 0.0 alliances in empire space, thus making contacts, and friends, and maybe getting invited into 0.0 alliances... As it currently is conceived, I don't see this expansion being relevant past the point the participants realize they are merely cannon fodder for griefers. Existing pvp'ers coming in get nothing out of it, and in the end those you want to attract to pvp will get nothing but a negative experience, BECAUSE existing pvp'ers won't be a part of it. What I'd love to see is CCP rework this so that faction warfare becomes a gamewide mechanic by allowing ALL to participate. This is a major system that should get the treatment it deserves. [/quote Step by step: 1) alliances are allowed to joing; 2) Privateers return to his former glory (or a new, equivalent alliance is founded), at the same time 3 other alliance are born to do "small gang PvP in FW" in the different empires; 3) at this point we have 4 big entities that do PvP in high sec with ptenty of targets for a par of weeks; 4) then all the small time corporations, solo players, new players and c. decide that Fw is a total pita and leave the militia or declare the corp neutral; 5) those that are left join one of the 4 alliances for protection; 6) end results 4 big alliances fighting for the contol of low security sistems and the occasional gank in high sec while the rest of EVE keep away fron FW. No small scale PvP but 0.0 in low sec. Maybe it will resolve low sec problems, but not for the betterment of the current denizens in low sec or for a betterment of the game. What you are asking is to enlarge 0.0 but it will not create a bridge between 0.0 and high sec, nor it will draw more people to PvP.
Silvana Kor'ah	Posted - 2008.05.16 16:02:00 - [111] Edited by: Silvana Kor''ah on 16/05/2008 16:03:58 In this case, i think the OP is right. Would my corp leave her empire alliance now? I guess not. Will i leave my corp to solo pvp? Again, i guess not. At the momemt i have to admit, that this really just looks like some fresh blood for the pirate blobs waiting for easy prey. Anyways, i will give it a try on staturday on the test server and then complain. Or maybe only laugh
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.16 16:09:00 - [112] Originally by: Jakke Logan I'm sorry but I dont think anyone is qualified to say what "will be" a joke at any point in the future. And as I understand it factional warfare isnt really for alliances anyway, its to help non pvpers to get into pvp. At least thats how I understand it. All I can say is that if members of pvp alliances get ZERO out of this expansion isn't the truth, CCP needs to be coming out with info to the contrary PRETTY DAMN FAST. Because this expansion is a total zero for the people I play the game with. Honestly, I think this expansion is a huge mistake as it's currently planned. So essentially your point is that when a new expansion has 0 content for empire players it is ok, if it has 0 content for 0.0 players it should be scrapepd? Tipical case of "me, me". the majority of EVE expansion have most of the content limited to low sec/0.0 and you begrunge that most of the content of this expansion is for empire (low sec and high sec)?
Talic Xeron Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.16 17:32:00 - [113] Originally by: Jakke Logan Originally by: Talic Xeron <stuff></stuff> And pirates only fight 1 on 1? No, they don't. Look, I know where you guys are coming from and why. You love this expansion as it's designed because it's going to (at least temporarily) lure in some more non pvp'ers for you to gank. All well and good. And I can understand why you don't want the alliances involved in FW, because it would just SUCK for you all to have to face some actual pvp'ers, equipped to pvp, wouldn't it? FW, as conceived will cease to be relevant soon as the empire carebears realize their purpose in it is to provide kills and loot for pirates. Involving the alliances offers at least the possibility of this being mitigated by the possibility of them providing some protection to the empire players. Did I once mention 1 on 1? anywhere? Lemme check . . . nope, I didn't. What I'm referring to is small gang warfare, which is NOTHING compared to the blobs 0.0 alliances drop in to battles. I guarantee that if you were to get a group of your skilled pvp'ers in a small gang and go head to head with a small gang from an established pirate corp, you'd be in for one hell of a fight. I'm sick of this notion you have that the only people who know how to pvp are 0.0 alliance slaves. Also, did I not mention that I prefer targets that know how to fight back? I don't ransom, if I find targets that don't knwo anythign they're going to be improperly fitted, I'd rather fight someone with a proper fight because A) it'll be more fun and B) I may actually gain somethign more out of it. Finally, who says empire players NEED to be protected? Let them fight and risk death like the rest of us. And as one last final note, post with your main, you spineless coward.
Guttripper State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.16 19:29:00 - [114] From a role-playing point of view, any of the factions would not accept an alliance or a corporation with members of its opposite ethnic society within their ranks. To drive this further, these same factions should be offended that those of their kind are aligned with those same opposite ethnic members and feel they are traitors to the cause. Thus alliances or corporations with more than one ethnic make-up should be opposed by both sides. That is as an example, if an alliance has both Caldari and Gallente members, both faction sides (npcs) should be against that alliance for siding with the enemy / being a sympathetic supporter. ----- Perhaps this is CCP's subtle way of breaking apart alliances. I remember during the last tournament a comment being said that too much 0.0 space being controlled by too few groups. If an alliance can be splintered to side with their individuals' race, then more space would be open for conquest. Thus instead of alliances controlling large sections, smaller pockets of single ethnic races would be holding space and fighting each other. Just some thoughts.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Ira Theos And on this point it utterly fails because CCP can't seem to wrap their heads around the real reason players in Empire don't go to zero and PvP.... COST and MOTIVATION.. Cost? Are you kidding? How do you think we guys in 0.0 or Low Sec manage it? Same way you guys in empire do - missions, ratting, mining etc for the most part. It doesn't cost a lot to PvP. Take you're average mission runner doing level 3 or 4 missions. You already have a combat ship, you know how to tank, what damage types are, resistances, cap usage, how to align etc... you know what warp scrambling is, what webbing is, what ECM is and what sensor damping is. So get a ship - cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship - or even a frigate or whatever - insure it, fit some weapons on there and off you go. Take a Torp Raven - it's PvP setup is slightly different from a torp mission raven, but the basic idea is the same - rack of torps, some balistic control systems, a shield tank. Only extras are a MWD and a warp scrambler or something. Ship costs about 90m isk - insure it for 30 odd million, get 105m back payout. Tech 2 mods cost what, 30m for the lot, at the most. So you stand to lose about 60m isk tops, if you die. So what? That's Worlds Collide lvl 4 ran once or twice with salvaging. That's Guristas Extravaganza run once or twice etc. It's about 2 or 3 hours worth of missions to get back to where you were before - some of these people do 4 hours of missions a night. I really, really can't see why people say that "cost" or "losing a ship" is something to be afraid of - as long as you still have your mission ship you can recoup the losses in a couple of horus and set out and do it again. That's how I've mostly done it. The only ship I've never taken into a dangerous situation was my ratting raven. As long as I had that in 0.0, I knew no matter what I lost (and I've lost ships with 400-700m fittings) I could always recoup it. Your numbers demonstrate why it is impractical to go to zero. (Note I said impractical, not impossible.) The cost and trouble it takes to replace your PvP ships is ridiculously high. 60 million per ship by your own count for battleships. This completely ignores the travel time it takes to assemble those ships by buying the parts. As for your ratting Raven in zero... it is a wreck waiting to happen. The funniest thing about your position in zero as a serf is that while you are performing mandatory ops in service to your overlords (all financed out of your pocket, I might add) they are pocketing the proceeds from their moon mining operations (which YOU defend) to fund their PvP and Imperial aspirations. TOTALLY LAUGHABLE IF IT WEREN'T SO SAD. And what do you get out of it?? Well I guess you get to wear their hat and Tee shirt at the fanfest..... THE JOKE'S ON YOU!
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:15:00 - [116] Originally by: Jakke Logan In 0.0 there is motivation to pvp: protect the space you OWN. Plus, the rewards are higher. I can replace a fully fitted battleship in a couple hours ratting. One good rat session a week of a few hours and I can afford several frigs/cruisers and a couple battleships. Can't get that out of lowsec. More LOLZ!!! "YOU OWN??".... "YOU" don't own shyt unless YOU are getting a cut of the moon mining proceeds!
Morcam	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:32:00 - [117] Really, do 0.0 alliances need more Titan V2's? It's just finally time now that CCP is trying to get the highsecers into pvp, and thus into 0.0 after a little while. The 0.0 alliances DO get something out of this better than any new ship. They're called PEOPLE (they come in handy as meat shields in a fight, remember?)
Ira Theos	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:38:00 - [118] Originally by: Morcam Really, do 0.0 alliances need more Titan V2's? It's just finally time now that CCP is trying to get the highsecers into pvp, and thus into 0.0 after a little while. The 0.0 alliances DO get something out of this better than any new ship. They're called PEOPLE (they come in handy as meat shields in a fight, remember?) I salute you sir for your candor in referring to the serfs in zero for what truly are....... "meat-shields" for their masters.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.05.17 02:51:00 - [119] Edited by: OffBeaT on 17/05/2008 02:51:51 Originally by: Colonel Rykef In short it is because all that would do would be to extend 0.0 to low sec with various alliance vying for control of it. The idea here is to create an environment where there is not a huge fleet granted thats still going to occur but if i understand correctly it will be much harder for them to effectively gather and attack targets as the pvp will be limited to ship types i am a little disopinted in what your saying i was hoping too get too see carriers and dreads pluss alot of the new ships i cant see unless i am in a alliance 00 war.. i think so are most of the empire low-sec pvpers. we dont get too see these ships in action.. i hope it dont stay that way..
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:08:00 - [120] Originally by: OffBeaT Edited by: OffBeaT on 17/05/2008 02:51:51 Originally by: Colonel Rykef In short it is because all that would do would be to extend 0.0 to low sec with various alliance vying for control of it. The idea here is to create an environment where there is not a huge fleet granted thats still going to occur but if i understand correctly it will be much harder for them to effectively gather and attack targets as the pvp will be limited to ship types i am a little disopinted in what your saying i was hoping too get too see carriers and dreads pluss alot of the new ships i cant see unless i am in a alliance 00 war.. i think so are most of the empire low-sec pvpers. we dont get too see these ships in action.. i hope it dont stay that way.. That view is reserved for the slaves who serve.
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:16:00 - [121] Originally by: Ira Theos The funniest thing about your position in zero as a serf is that while you are performing mandatory ops in service to your overlords (all financed out of your pocket, I might add) they are pocketing the proceeds from their moon mining operations (which YOU defend) to fund their PvP and Imperial aspirations. TOTALLY LAUGHABLE IF IT WEREN'T SO SAD. And what do you get out of it?? Well I guess you get to wear their hat and Tee shirt at the fanfest..... THE JOKE'S ON YOU! QFT!!
Gwendion Gallente No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.05.17 03:39:00 - [122] Scroll to the last sentence for the primarily on-topic part: -------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Guttripper From a role-playing point of view, any of the factions would not accept an alliance or a corporation with members of its opposite ethnic society within their ranks. Hello? Did you grow up in a cave? Ever pick up a history book, or read the news lately? Theres this thing called, a "Mercenary". A separate, completely otherwise neutral party, who engages in combat for a Country or cause for money. Lets go into the history books... Syrian and Nubia light infantry recruited to fight for Egypt? Check Privateers in the age of the sail? Check. Saika mercenary group in Japan? Check American Volunteer Group in China before WW2? (aka The Flying Tigers) Check Hello, Ninjas? Check. Xerxes I hiring Greek Mercenaries? Check Rome hiring Sons of Mars for the Punic wars? Check Carthage hiring Balearic Slingers for the Punic wars? Check The whole basis of copper and iron aged Celtic/Scottish warfare? Check. The US Government employing (sorry a bit of personal hatred here) turn-coat Indians (feather) against our own people? Check. (Ever heard of an 'Indian Tracker?' yeah I thought so..) The US hiring Blackwater to fight the iraqi war? Check. I can go on and on with Mercenaries throughout history, and their EXTREMELY Important role to shape our very lives even today. I'll even go so far as to bring in Mercenaries in Eve.. Mordu's legion. Check them out, read their bio (in the backstory section) theyre freaking Gallente/Caldari War vets whom the Caldari State routinely uses. I say, Let us 0.0 Alliances do something! Mercenaries Unite! ------------------------------------------------------ Now on to the PvP Ranting... all of you suck. Carebear, Pirate and 0.0 Minions alike. No seriously, you suck. Not a single one of you can actually fight. Take it from one person in the last Alliance from the Northern Collation still down south kicking butts and salvaging wrecks. YOU ALL SUCK. Repeat after me: * Blobbing is not PvP. * Ganking Carebears in Belts/Missions is not PvP. * Gate Camping (mostly..) is not PvP * Hot-dropping Carriers is not PvP. * POS bashing is not PvP. (Actually its rusty spoon eye gouging fun! Now with Vitamin B) Small gang warfare IS PvP. 5-10 people on roaming ops, engaging another 5-20 people is what PvP is, and what Factional warfare will create (hopefuly) We have been extremely lucky these last few weeks to engage in quite alot of small gang PvP down south. Luckily for us, we (the corp and I) are extremely experienced in this form of warfare already, and we haven't really lost a battle that we weren't outnumbered 4-1 yet. (We have won 3-1 odds on several occasions) This is real PvP, Tactics, surprise, and forethought. What have I learned? No matter how big you talk.. your epeen != PvP skill. (Ask the former members of Brotherhood of Steel when we single handily destroyed that alliance because they were a bunch of stupid, big mouthed carebears who ended up joining CVA and STILL getting their lossmails handed to them multiple times a day, yeah thats right, I know who started this thread) So.. Quiet all of you on this. Most of you couldn't PvP your way out of a Wet paper EFT fitting, let alone actual combat. --------------------------------- .... Im gonna hate myself in the morning for agreeing with the OP.. but I think there should be an Alliance level Mercenary mechanic to the whole Faction Warfare thing.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2008.05.17 04:43:00 - [123] dam! this chick is bad ass..
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.05.17 06:17:00 - [124] Edited by: Soporo on 17/05/2008 06:21:12 I'm trying to get a grip on what will actually happen in Empire and in lowSec. I'm going to assume that gate camps in LowSec will become even more prevalent by dint of more potential targets wanting to engage in the FW stuff there. All the Empire prats that left LowSec to annoy people in HighSec may or may not go back and hang in Low. I don't see LowSec specific Pirates of any stripe opting in to FW really, no reason to do so that I can see as long as theres a gate to sit, but maybe I am wrong. The Empire bears that mission run remember losing their CNR in the farce that was the first attempt to lure peeps into LowSec and, if they DO opt in to FW, it'll probably be straight Empire stuff. Some other bored Empire peeps may opt in and try it out, but they will probably use an alt or wait and watch the forums for the whines concerning FW before deciding. Peeps like RvB will rejoice and go apesh*t trying to decide what Faction to do. New Corps will likely arise for straight FW intent. Mercs... one would think mercs would be shooting themselves in the foot by opting in to FW. n00bs...rookies won't know wtf is going on, as usual, and will continue to die in droves no matter what they decide. Eventually, they will see a profit in following around FW gangs or sitting gates and loot thieving. I remember the good old days when the privs were getting loot thieved by hundreds of n00bs in Ibises and Bantams. Traders will avoid opting in like the plague. Empire Miners would be foolish to opt in as well. What else...
Guttripper State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:30:00 - [125] Re: Gwendion My interpretation of this expansion, which could be wrong, is that this is a racially motivated war. Similar to how **** Germany saw Catholics, homosexuals, Jews, etc. - a good one is a dead one. Or radical Islamic extremists of today considering anyone other than an Islam faithful to be marked for death. This is a war of purity of the race - the empyrean aspect to the expansion's name. Again, from the role playing aspect, why should any of the four races accept anyone that does not believe in their cause and only are willing to work for money ala mercenaries? Or how the loyalty of mercenaries to the empire society was dropped to form another society ala alliance? Since you're Gallente and I am Caldarian, the hatred between us should be intense where bigotry and genocide are our only thoughts towards the other and our respected kind. But are you a pure and true Gallente to willingly kill your fellow Caldarian corp mates and alliance members without concern or remorse? Or do you wish to just wtfbbqpwn anything and everything while raking in profits hand over fist by continuing to fly with your multiple ethnic friends that come first and foremost? Now you might understand why I believe CCP excluded alliances for this expansion - your friends come first over your racial affairs.
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:42:00 - [126] Jakke Logan: Most clueless sock puppet on EvE-O
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.07.30 19:51:00 - [127] Man why you got to pull the thread out of the casket? I was about to bury it. /me whines and puts down the shovel in defeat. New Ship Idea: Tender Supply Ship, The Logistics Sister
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:01:00 - [128] Originally by: Kelli Flay Jakke Logan: Most clueless sock puppet on EvE-O be nice, he was totally right about nobody at all playing FW. i mean, there's what, like 100 people total across the 4 factions? i mean, my corp is bigger than that. - -

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