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Proto Tron
Acerbus Vindictum
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:08:00 -
[1]
Yet another thread to humbly ask CCP to remove the advanced learning skills from EVE.
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills? Is that CCP's way to recoup the free 1/2 month?
Increase the inherent (to start with) attributes upon character creation and allow folks to tweak it with the regular learning with skills later.
url=http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0707/prototron.jpg |
Anonymous Dominance
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Posted - 2008.05.22 18:27:00 -
[2]
This thread fails
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.22 19:20:00 -
[3]
Agree. And...
 Originally by: Proto Tron
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills?
= source of failure.
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Estel Arador
AFK
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Posted - 2008.05.22 20:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Proto Tron
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills?
Why make another crap thread about this?
Skills Explained |
Tie Reen
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Posted - 2008.05.22 20:42:00 -
[5]
Bump i completely agree. im new to the game and i still havent gotten every of the filler skills trained yet.
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.22 20:57:00 -
[6]
My Point of View: More Learning Skills!!! 
I used the first 4 weaks only Frigs and got a solid 4.7 M in Learnings, and yes it was fun. 
Eve is about choice, not about one size fits all. 
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Nerf Lasers!
Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit.
Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage.
O wait... they allready did... =( |
z0de
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.05.22 21:29:00 -
[7]
They are an annoying time sink encouraging the use of alts. I don't like them but don't see them going.
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Jei'son Bladesmith
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:01:00 -
[8]
give everyone a +10 to each attribute, trash the learning skills, call it a day.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.22 22:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: z0de
They are an annoying time sink encouraging the use of alts. I don't like them but don't see them going.
DIScouraging the use of alts, you mean ?
Because if they're an ANNOYING timesink, why would you want MORE of it, on each account the same ?
You make no sense.
Also, L4 basics + L3 advanceds + L1 cybernetics for plus-3 implants can take less than one week.
IF you chose to train it further, it's your choice.
But claiming it's mandatory is FREAKING STUPID.
Why don't you complain about having to train Frigate/Cruiser/Destroyer/Battlecruiser/Battleship to L5 before using T2 ships ? Or L5 in the basic weapons (or in case of turrets, all weapons below too) just to get T2 gear ?
It's even MORE of a timesink.
People who advocate the removal of the learning skills in the current form are clueless.
You might just as well advocate the removal of ALL skill prerequisites, and have everybody use everything from character creation.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.05.23 05:36:00 -
[10]
Learning skills are mandatory (up to a point) if you're planning to play for, say, 1 year +. They are an annoying time sink, even more so because you need to get them out of the way as soon as possible to start accumulating the time gain. But they shouldn't be removed, otherwise we might as well remove the need to train all the other mandatory skills like Navigation for example. If you're not planning on playing for more than a year then you would have an advantage over the long term player for the time you play also.
Anyone planning on playing long term who hasn't started their learning will say get rid of them (OP) and often do. Players who have completed them will tell those people to go jump.
Removing them just dumbs down the game. They're a decision all players have to make.
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Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.05.23 07:18:00 -
[11]
Wrong forum, and if you'd actually read up a bit you'd know that CCP has been aching to do this but can't for various reasons.
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Ryuga VonRhaiden
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 09:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Proto Tron
Yet another thread to humbly ask CCP to remove the advanced learning skills from EVE.
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills? Is that CCP's way to recoup the free 1/2 month?
Increase the inherent (to start with) attributes upon character creation and allow folks to tweak it with the regular learning with skills later.
don't like 'em? just don't train 'em... there are more than 350 skills to choose from :D
Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature. |
Admiral Madbull
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Posted - 2008.05.23 10:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Admiral Madbull on 23/05/2008 10:20:15
CCP really dont like learning skills either, they have mentioned in several dev blogs that they made a big misstake introducing them to game at all, but as things are now its impossible to take them off game.
And i agree with this, its dumb that you have to train them to get ahead, but at the same time, if they would not exist things would go alot slower to train.
And taking them away giving everyone +10 isnt either a good option, since people have spent the time training them.
Guess there will always be someone complaining on this issue nomatter what happens.
My 2 cents: leave them as they are.
ps: to all new players, they did lower the pre-requisit for advanced learning skills, before you hade to train basic to lv5 to start training adv. now its lv4 only, so not a big deal. AND as everything in eve ITS NOT MANDATORY
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CrayC
CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: b1zz
Learning skills are mandatory if you're planning to play for, say, 1 year +.
There are NO mandatory skills in EVE. Because:
Originally by: b1zz
They're a decision all players have to make.
And that goes for every other skill not given at creation...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.23 11:46:00 -
[15]
Originally by: b1zz
Learning skills are mandatory if you're planning to play for, say, 1 year +.
It's like saying picking Achura Stargazer/Monk or training Cybernetics 5 and plugging in +5 implants is mandatory too.
No, it's NOT mandatory. It's a CHOICE.
Yes, you WILL get slightly less SP in the long run, but you WILL be behind a good while if you "finish" them first.
The average player age is hardly over 9 months... since the payoff time for all L5 basics is comparable in length, and the advanced learning skills (if trained to L5) barely now start to pay off for those that trained them when they first came out... it's downright criminally negligent to even SUGGEST to a new player that they might be MADATORY to the max.
It's a simple choice between what you need NOW, what you need SOON, and what your end goal is.
If you can't decide for yourself, or you can only think of the very, very long run... then have the freaking curtesy to not complain about it, since, well, you're supposedly thinking far ahead, right ?
Yes, NOT training L3 basics almost ASAP is a bad idea, since the payoff time is measured in days.
Yes, NOT training L4 basics and L3 advanced as soon as you can afford them is also a bad idea, since the payoff time is measured in weeks.
But when you hit payoff times measured in trimesters, the YEARS... start thinking before you proceed.
If you are unable to think about it and make a choice between immediate needs and future plans... your loss.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.05.23 12:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Akita T
MADATORY to the max.
Ease up on the caps Akita lol. Did I say 'to the max'. I didn't think a detailed mathematical analysis was needed, or just couldn't be arsed to be as specific as 5/4 with +4 implants if playing + 1 year.
And Akita, there are other reasons to max Learning. Some people aren't interested in knowing that the benefit won't pay off for three years, they just want everything to max so whenever they train they know they will gain a skill in the quickest time possible after they've made the decision to train.
If you guys don't think Learning is mandatory for + 1 year players then good luck to you.
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Proto Tron
Acerbus Vindictum
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Posted - 2008.05.23 14:19:00 -
[17]
Clarification:
I am not asking for +10 to all new characters. I am asking for +5.
In conjunction with above, I am asking to remove advanced skills from the game completely.
I am vaguely aware of the CCP's programming difficulties in doing so and am aware of their track record with deep system changes.
On the question of choice:
This is WAAAAY beyond this discussion. But if a new player reads some guides and does minimal optimization with a time horizon of over one year, the OPTIMAL course of learning is clear. Yes, some of you are right, some will make a choice of having a suboptimal toons, but with understanding that in the future they will still have to train those skills.
Navigation, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a required, aka foundational, skill.
Also, I would gather that CCP is looking to retain its customers without much expensive churn. Therefore, they should make it easier for their customers feel that they would be successful in a long EVE term.
url=http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0707/prototron.jpg |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.23 14:36:00 -
[18]
You might as well request that all characters start with all learning skills at L4, plus L3 Science, L1 Cybernetics and a full set of +3 implants plugged in.
There you go, not +5, not +10, but actually +11.88 to all attributes on top of the +0.624 to average base attribute value for a grand total of +12.504 on average to each attribute compared to how things were about a year and a half ago.
Or, hell, why not, L5 in both basic and advanced for the particular attributes pertinent to your career, so a +12.504 on average for three attributes but a +14.664 to two of your chosen attributes.
How's that ?
Sounds ridiculous ?
Not more than what YOU're asking for, TBQFH.
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Athamai
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Posted - 2008.05.23 15:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Proto Tron
Yet another thread to humbly ask CCP to remove the advanced learning skills from EVE.
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills? Is that CCP's way to recoup the free 1/2 month?
Increase the inherent (to start with) attributes upon character creation and allow folks to tweak it with the regular learning with skills later.
Eve like many things has choices between long term benefit and 'quick fix'. I see nothing wrong with this.. New people are not forced to do advanced learning skills but it's the best way to maximize for the long term.
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Euriti
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.05.23 16:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Euriti on 23/05/2008 16:55:44
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: z0de
Also, L4 basics + L3 advanceds + L1 cybernetics for plus-3 implants can take less than one week.
This is what I have with the exception of perc which is 5/4. Learning is at 5.
No more is really needed if you wanna get started properly, who cares if you loose half a million SP in the first year or so, it's about having fun.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.05.23 17:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Proto Tron
Clarification:
I am not asking for +10 to all new characters. I am asking for +5.
In conjunction with above, I am asking to remove advanced skills from the game completely.
So you've been playing for 1.5 years and, let me guess, you haven't invested in Learning up 'till now? Well, you better get to it because you're a bit behind. Every second counts.
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Highwind Cid
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Posted - 2008.05.23 18:11:00 -
[22]
Please can someone link/explain why it is 'impossible' to remove learning skills. This is my take. I like the idea of whoever mentioned remove the learning skills and give everyone +10 to all attributes. I personally have gotten all basic to 4 all advanced to 4 and learning to 5. My take? As a new person "Well, If I want to be efficient a year from now and make this second forward at its best I have to spend this amount of time getting these skills up." To a new player the instant though it *lame*. And it is. It would give new users the ability to spend a million+ SP's in some other skills and dive into the action a little quicker. So If tomorrow they did change it, would I be mad since I spent the time to skill my learning up? No. Besides if you trained any advanced skill to 5 then your probably also have a minor/mild case of OCD.
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Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.23 18:31:00 -
[23]
A better idea - double the training time for all skills...
...there are too many pilots flying big ships and the game is only five years old. 
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z0de
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.05.24 03:07:00 -
[24]
Edited by: z0de on 24/05/2008 03:12:34
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: z0de
They are an annoying time sink encouraging the use of alts. I don't like them but don't see them going.
DIScouraging the use of alts, you mean ?
Because if they're an ANNOYING timesink, why would you want MORE of it, on each account the same ?
You make no sense.
Because you can have fun on your main while an alt spends 2months doing nothing but learning skills.
Originally by: Akita T
Also, L4 basics + L3 advanceds + L1 cybernetics for plus-3 implants can take less than one week.
IF you chose to train it further, it's your choice.
But claiming it's mandatory is FREAKING STUPID.
Please show where I said they were mandatory, its just more efficacy to have them if you plan on playing for any length of time and have a goal leading to alts, power level one guy in a hanger with +5's while you have fun on the main.
Originally by: Akita T
Why don't you complain about having to train Frigate/Cruiser/Destroyer/Battlecruiser/Battleship to L5 before using T2 ships ? Or L5 in the basic weapons (or in case of turrets, all weapons below too) just to get T2 gear ?
It's even MORE of a timesink.
Because it makes sense that you should be highly skilled in a ship type to fly the advanced versions.
Originally by: Akita T
People who advocate the removal of the learning skills in the current form are clueless.
You might just as well advocate the removal of ALL skill prerequisites, and have everybody use everything from character creation.
Because that's exactly the same thing isn't it.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.05.24 03:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Highwind Cid
Please can someone link/explain why it is 'impossible' to remove learning skills. This is my take. I like the idea of whoever mentioned remove the learning skills and give everyone +10 to all attributes. I personally have gotten all basic to 4 all advanced to 4 and learning to 5. My take? As a new person "Well, If I want to be efficient a year from now and make this second forward at its best I have to spend this amount of time getting these skills up." To a new player the instant though it *lame*. And it is. It would give new users the ability to spend a million+ SP's in some other skills and dive into the action a little quicker. So If tomorrow they did change it, would I be mad since I spent the time to skill my learning up? No. Besides if you trained any advanced skill to 5 then your probably also have a minor/mild case of OCD.
That's right, they will think 'lame', and they will decide not to train their learning and get right into the action. These people want their cake now, and in a years time they will come into the forum and post a thread called 'get rid of the learning skills' because they can't stand that their friends are overtaking them in the SP count.
I would be mad if they removed them. They can compensate me with equivalent SP in other areas but they can't compensate what I could have been doing in the time I was training Learning skills.
The other problem is it would put all strategic long term decisions on shaky ground, and it is one of the unique features of this game that you can plan a long way ahead. The first thing I would be thinking if they removed them is, are any of my other long term strategic decisions safe anymore and am I willing to risk it? I don't think CCP want to ****-off the players who have invested in Learning skills because they're the people who have basically confirmed their participation for 2 years+.
Is it really such a burden to train to 5/4. If you can't wait just train 5/4 in Intelligence and Perception, a couple of weeks tops, and you'd be half way there. Make your decision and stick with it and stop coming in here and whining about it after the fact .
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:18:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Akita T on 24/05/2008 04:19:26
Originally by: z0de
Originally by: Akita T
People who advocate the removal of the learning skills in the current form are clueless.
You might just as well advocate the removal of ALL skill prerequisites, and have everybody use everything from character creation.
Because that's exactly the same thing isn't it.
Yes, it is.
According to people arguing against learning skills anyway: they're both TIME-SINKS.
Heck, for that matter, learning skills are even more justifiable, since they do pay off in the long run, leaving you with nothing but profit later on... whereas a lot of other "L5 prerequisite" skills are completely and utterly unnecessary (while others are merely desirable, but not necessary at all).
So, you don't mind having utterly useless time-sinks, but if there's an USEFUL time-sink in there, it must surely go away ?
What's your logic in that ?
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z0de
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:38:00 -
[27]
Edited by: z0de on 24/05/2008 04:40:25
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: z0de
Because that's exactly the same thing isn't it.
Yes, it is.
According to people arguing against learning skills anyway: they're both TIME-SINKS.
Heck, for that matter, learning skills are even more justifiable, since they do pay off in the long run, leaving you with nothing but profit later on... whereas a lot of other "L5 prerequisite" skills are completely and utterly unnecessary (while others are merely desirable, but not necessary at all).
So, you don't mind having utterly useless time-sinks, but if there's an USEFUL time-sink in there, it must surely go away ?
What's your logic in that ?
My logic is that all other skills give a benefit to your abilities in game as a direct result of you investing time in them. Learning skills do not improve your ingame abilities they increase how quick you get ingame abilities but the skill on its own does nothing.
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Slade Hoo
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:54:00 -
[28]
*bump*
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Bael Thazor
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Posted - 2008.05.24 04:57:00 -
[29]
Originally by: z0de
Edited by: z0de on 24/05/2008 04:40:25
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: z0de
Because that's exactly the same thing isn't it.
Yes, it is.
According to people arguing against learning skills anyway: they're both TIME-SINKS.
Heck, for that matter, learning skills are even more justifiable, since they do pay off in the long run, leaving you with nothing but profit later on... whereas a lot of other "L5 prerequisite" skills are completely and utterly unnecessary (while others are merely desirable, but not necessary at all).
So, you don't mind having utterly useless time-sinks, but if there's an USEFUL time-sink in there, it must surely go away ?
What's your logic in that ?
My logic is that all other skills give a benefit to your abilities in game as a direct result of you investing time in them. Learning skills do not improve your ingame abilities <b>they increase how quick you get ingame abilities but the skill on its own does nothing. </b>
So your ability to learn other abilities is not an ability...
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Hannibal AntePorta
Finis Lumen
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 07:04:00 -
[30]
What's the problem with scrapping the learning skills and giving everyone +10?
Okay so some people already trained them, they lose nothing. The only reason this isn't a good idea is if established players want the new players to suffer the same crap they did.
Wanting someone to have the same negative experience just because you did is not a good reason to keep bad game mechanics. What is unbalancing and unfair about this other than the percieved slight? I'm sure CCP would use a time machine to right that wrong if they could--suck it up, you're already past the bad and into the good, others aren't so lucky.
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Jecob
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Posted - 2008.05.24 07:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Jecob on 24/05/2008 07:50:54
Originally by: Akita T
Heck, for that matter, learning skills are even more justifiable, since they do pay off in the long run, leaving you with nothing but profit later on... whereas a lot of other "L5 prerequisite" skills are completely and utterly unnecessary (while others are merely desirable, but not necessary at all).
They also pay off immediately, which I think is a more valid point.
Originally by: Proto Tron
Yet another thread to humbly ask CCP to remove the advanced learning skills from EVE.
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills? Is that CCP's way to recoup the free 1/2 month?
Increase the inherent (to start with) attributes upon character creation and allow folks to tweak it with the regular learning with skills later.
I can't understand the OP's point of view or anyone who would want them removed. The learning skills instantly knock time off of any training time connected with the attribute being enhanced. You don't need to train them all to 5 but taking them to at least 4 is a very short term investment for an immediate benefit.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.24 07:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: z0de
Originally by: Akita T
So, you don't mind having utterly useless time-sinks, but if there's an USEFUL time-sink in there, it must surely go away ? What's your logic in that ?
My logic is that all other skills give a benefit to your abilities in game as a direct result of you investing time in them. Learning skills do not improve your ingame abilities they increase how quick you get ingame abilities but the skill on its own does nothing.
Really ? So, for instance, when you're flying your battleship, what good is L4/L5 cruiser or L4/L5 frigate to you ?
Or what about T2 guns, how's small railgun spec of any relevance to your large T2 rails ?
Ok, ok, you WOULD have an use for them if you decided to fly a cruiser or a frigate, sure, but you want to fly a battleship with T2 large guns... everything below is merely a time-sink to you... and not one that brings you any benefits either.
Originally by: Hannibal AntePorta
What's the problem with scrapping the learning skills and giving everyone +10?
Dumbing things down is never a good idea.
Quote:
Okay so some people already trained them, they lose nothing.
Right... nothing... just 4+ mil SPs for all to L5, nothing else, sure... or would you propose to have those SPs automagically changed into something else ?
Quote:
The only reason this isn't a good idea is if established players want the new players to suffer the same crap they did.
Right, there can be absolutely no other explanation. [/sarcasm]
Quote:
Wanting someone to have the same negative experience just because you did is not a good reason to keep bad game mechanics. What is unbalancing and unfair about this other than the percieved slight? I'm sure CCP would use a time machine to right that wrong if they could--suck it up, you're already past the bad and into the good, others aren't so lucky.
So, the fact that new players now start with L4 in one of the basic learnings and L2 in another plus L1 learning itself, or the fact that the prerequisite to train the advanced learning skills has been lowered from L5 to merely L4... that's "wanting to keep a negative experience" too ?
Like I said, you just as well might request the immediate bumping of all learning skills to L4 or even L5 if you want to keep it "fair".
My main trained the advanced learning skills back in the day you needed L5 basics. It was also back then that +3s were about as expensive as +4s are nowadays... well, actually, even slightly more expensive... and ONE single +5 implant went for over half a bil ISK (now, you get the full set for that much).
My alt is a bit over one year old.
It has all learnings trained to L4 (none of them to L5), it also only has +3 implants now, but it spent a good while with just +2s, and also periods without any implants at all.
I DO NOT plan to train any additional levels in any of the learnings, and even if it can use +4 implants, I don't plan to plug any of them in.
And yes, I do plan to keep it, and I do plan to use it for several years to come.
WHY don't I train the rest of the learnings, and why don't I plug in better implants ?
Because to me, on that particular alt, the implants aren't worth the ISK right now, and the training speed is already adequate.
Yes, I am well aware that I could have had more SPs down the road in one year, half a year, whatever.
Still, since that char is supposed to be used in PvP more often than not, flying with expensive implants is an unnecessary risk, and while I would like some distant skills to finish faster, I need a couple of other skills MUCH faster still.
And one more thing : if I do those learnings to L5 instead of keeping them all to L4, that's almost 4 mil SP extra that have to be accomodated in the medical clone.
NO THANKS.
So yes, there are reasons NOT to train the learning skills fully even if you plan to play forever.
PURE SP COUNT MEANS NOTHING.
Get that or you fail at EVE.
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AKULA UrQuan
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.05.24 08:10:00 -
[33]
There is exactly zero need to train the advanced learning skills right away. Anyone that says otherwise is giveing bad advice. Train the basics to level 3-4, pickup your basic frig/cruiser skills and go have some fun. When you are looking at all those level 5 skills to get those nice T2 ships then worry about the advanced learning skills. Won't be as painfull then cause you'll be running around blowing stuff up and doing other things.
epp. New players just about get the first month's training time handed to them when compaired to players that started back in mid 06 and before and that's still not enough? What about those players that did train those advanced learning skills? They'll be kinda screwed won't they?
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Hannibal AntePorta
Finis Lumen
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 08:43:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Hannibal AntePorta on 24/05/2008 08:45:17
Edited by: Hannibal AntePorta on 24/05/2008 08:44:23
@ Akita
You really didn't respond to the substance, nor did you bring any relevant information to the table in your response to my post save for an off base example.
So I'll ask again, if all learning skills are automatically made to be 5 or all stats +10 and the skills scapped what exactly do established players lose? Other than a percieved loss of time in the past?
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Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.24 10:00:00 -
[35]
Alright, I'm game.
Remove the learning skills from the game. Everyone that trained the skills to the various levels will be able to keep their gained attribute points. Then if you wish to give everyone +10, then someone like me, who already trained the whole tree to completion, shall stillbe +10 in attributes over those that want instant gratification.
So in the long run, I will always be ahead of those that want it now!!!
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.05.24 10:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Hannibal AntePorta
So I'll ask again, if all learning skills are automatically made to be 5 or all stats +10 and the skills scapped what exactly do established players lose? Other than a percieved loss of time in the past?
Reasons have already been stated. Reread the thread and reply to them, I'm not restating for your benefit.
Originally by: Guttripper
Remove the learning skills from the game. Everyone that trained the skills to the various levels will be able to keep their gained attribute points. Then if you wish to give everyone +10, then someone like me, who already trained the whole tree to completion, shall stillbe +10 in attributes over those that want instant gratification.
So in the long run, I will always be ahead of those that want it now!!!
Deal! We all get +10 on top of our current attributes, whatever they may be  . Seems only fair really, seeing as we can't get back what we could have been doing if we weren't training Learning skills. Is that okay with the Learning deletion advocates?
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Molpadia Devaux
Applied Creations
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Posted - 2008.05.24 11:10:00 -
[37]
If I invest 2 weeks to gain level 5 in a learning skill and then learning skills are removed and everyone gets +10, and I receive nothing for the 2 weeks training, it is not a perceived loss, it is a real loss.
Aside from advanced learning skills, what skill has any learning skill as a prerequisit ? No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to train learning. It is a choice. If you don't want to train them, don't. You do not have to have anything given to you.
Corporate management is a time sink, lets give everyone all skills in corporate management.
Social skills are a time sink, give everyone perfect standing with everone.
Frigates and cruisers are a time sink give everyone a battleship.
I demand to be uber l33t in 30 days, just like WoW.
Elementary school and high school are a time sink, give everyone a college degree.
Its a choice. If you choose not to train learning and I do, don't complain a year later when my pew-pew is bigger than your pew-pew, it was your choice.
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Taua Roqa
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.05.24 12:22:00 -
[38]
OP fails.
By stating, albeit badly spelt, 'plees bump if you agree' they are trying to set up favourable conditions for the few who actually support the complete removal of learning skills, as any form of disagreement will 'bump' the thread, possibly discouraging healthy debate and making their arguement appear stronger and better represented than it actually is. :)
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Threads are stacking-nerfed; the more posts you add the less effective those posts are. My I/Q Ration!!!11
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Ambien Torca
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Posted - 2008.05.24 14:52:00 -
[39]
I would agree with removing the damn skills even though my main has advanced skills trained. DonŠt care if they "reimbursed" for such removal or not. Sometimes you have to take bad medicine.
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Commander Killah
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Posted - 2008.05.24 16:59:00 -
[40]
Not training tho is very unwise, i trained them very late, and I only have x skillpoints when i should have around at least 1/3rd of it more...My attributes suck also wich might have helped even less
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TimMc
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.05.24 19:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bael Thazor
Originally by: z0de
Edited by: z0de on 24/05/2008 04:40:25
My logic is that all other skills give a benefit to your abilities in game as a direct result of you investing time in them. Learning skills do not improve your ingame abilities <b>they increase how quick you get ingame abilities but the skill on its own does nothing. </b>
So your ability to learn other abilities is not an ability...
First thing Paul Atreides learned was how to learn.
In this game, its a big wall which new players run into until they die instead of walking off and coming back when they've grown a bit.
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Hannibal AntePorta
Finis Lumen
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 21:29:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Taua Roqa
OP fails.
By stating, albeit badly spelt, 'plees bump if you agree' they are trying to set up favourable conditions for the few who actually support the complete removal of learning skills, as any form of disagreement will 'bump' the thread, possibly discouraging healthy debate and making their arguement appear stronger and better represented than it actually is. :)
Yet you fail to address the argument or provide an argument of your own. You fail the most.
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Taua Roqa
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.05.24 22:07:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Hannibal AntePorta
Originally by: Taua Roqa
OP fails.
By stating, albeit badly spelt, 'plees bump if you agree' they are trying to set up favourable conditions for the few who actually support the complete removal of learning skills, as any form of disagreement will 'bump' the thread, possibly discouraging healthy debate and making their arguement appear stronger and better represented than it actually is. :)
Yet you fail to address the argument or provide an argument of your own. You fail the most.
why provide a counter arguement to something that has been utterly done to death and to which I have nothing new to add? Sadly, learning skills are going nowhere, and if they did the next step would be people wanting to buy skillpoints to 'reduce pointless grind'.
you fail even more, nay, fail at failing etc.
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[IMAGE REMOVED]
Threads are stacking-nerfed; the more posts you add the less effective those posts are. My I/Q Ration!!!11
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Hannibal AntePorta
Finis Lumen
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.24 22:18:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Taua Roqa
Originally by: Hannibal AntePorta
Originally by: Taua Roqa
OP fails.
By stating, albeit badly spelt, 'plees bump if you agree' they are trying to set up favourable conditions for the few who actually support the complete removal of learning skills, as any form of disagreement will 'bump' the thread, possibly discouraging healthy debate and making their arguement appear stronger and better represented than it actually is. :)
Yet you fail to address the argument or provide an argument of your own. You fail the most.
why provide a counter arguement to something that has been utterly done to death and to which I have nothing new to add? Sadly, learning skills are going nowhere, and if they did the next step would be people wanting to buy skillpoints to 'reduce pointless grind'.
you fail even more, nay, fail at failing etc.
Why be so long winded? Just say succeed instead of fail at failing!
If you think this thread is merely a ploy and there is nothign to add to the conversation, why contribute and help the scheme that you insist is present?
k |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.05.24 22:26:00 -
[45]
I progressed to 4/3 learnings with whatever implants i had at the time from storyline missions
then one day I was in a drake doing level 3s not sure what i wanted to do next so 5/4 i went. as I started running level 4s i picked up a +4 set made a jump clone and well I'm in that clone now
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Illrae Pyou
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Posted - 2008.05.25 00:07:00 -
[46]
Yay, free attribute points!
I mean...
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.05.25 07:38:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Veryez on 25/05/2008 07:42:46
Couldn't disagree more.
I understand CCP wishes they never implemented the advanced learnings, but they did (the whole toothpaste out of the tube analogy).
The suggestion of giving everybody +10 sounds nice, but it's not going to happen. Older players would feel VERY cheated at spending over 2 months paying to play and training nothing. The fairest solution would be to give players +10 and allow them to redistribute any SP in learnings into other groups - and there's no chance that would ever happen.
Face it, training the learning skills is optional. Since most players don't play past 6 months, training the basic ones to lvl 3 is enough. When you're ready to make the long term commitment, you'll train the skills. If you've read tripoli's thread, you'll know training the advanced to 5 pays off in like 3 years. Do you realize how many SP you'll have at that time?
This has nothing to do with Veterans wanting you to 'feel their pain', it's that vets realize EvE is not a sprint, but a marathon. Plans in EvE are spread over months and sometimes years (my latest goal took 13 months of work). If you can't accept that, then sadly EvE isn't the game for you. But if you want I will attempt to answer your questions.
"Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills? Is that CCP's way to recoup the free 1/2 month?" - No it's CCP's attempt to keep you playing their game for a longer period of time. You make the commitment to train those skills, you are more likely to play EvE longer since they take longer to pay off = more money for CCP. Besides they are not filler skills, there are many skills you will train that have no impact on the ship you are flying. Some of them are prereqs for other skills you are using, others are skills you needed to make money faster the buy that new ship. Do you believe that someone with 60 mil SP is using all of them when he flies a ship? Veteran players may be able to do many things well, but at best they will only be equal to a dedicated pilot.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.25 08:39:00 -
[48]
The average player lasts about 9 months
Learning skills to 4+4 are the very highest it is worth training in that timescale.
4+4 takes just under 800,000 SP
New players start with just under 800,000 SP more than the old players got at the start.
Therefore CCP have in effect already compensated new players in advance for training learning skills to 4+4. At this level, assuming +4 implants (reasonable after 9 months), the new player has 108.9 points of stat compared to 119 with 5+4 (which is what almost all the "veterans" train). In effect they get well over 90% of their learning skills 'free'.
Simply by spending ~50% of their first month training learning skills, they will have at the end of that month about the same non-learning SP that they would with finished learnings and the same starting SP that veterans got.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Rising Fenix
SunStorm Defense Initiative
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Posted - 2008.05.25 09:27:00 -
[49]
I'm quite new, about a month playing, and I think Learning skills are just fine. When I started, I trained up Science, and Cybernetics so I could run +3's. I also trained up Learning. After that, I decided I wanted to get into the action, so I stated training my other skills.
When it comes time to start moving up the chain of ships, I'll probably finish out training Basic and Advanced skills. For now, I'm content with my career specific ones and Learning higher.
While I think that Learning skills are a pain to train, I see their necessity in character customization. Skills are an integral part of Eve Gameplay, to remove these core skills would be, in my rookie opinion, a terrible idea.
Humbly,
Fenix
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Molpadia Devaux
Applied Creations
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Posted - 2008.05.25 10:51:00 -
[50]
What I can't understand is why the people that don't like training skills want them removed. Who is forcing you to train them? Do you need perception 5 to fly a battleship? If you honestly believe that they are a waste, don't do it.
If learning skills are of no value, then there is no reason to give everybody any increase. Those that have a long range outlook tend to value them. What harm do you suffer if somebody else is training them? Demanding to be given free attributes is indeed very much of a whine. Gimme, gimme, gimme, I want, I want, I want, me, me, me.
I have not seen one valid argument for removing this skill tree from the game, only complaints about having to actualy plan what you want to train. Eve has a very broad range of opportunities to explore. I favor more options, not less. Learning skills are prerequisite for other learning skills, nothing else.
If you do not want to train them, move on and train something else, and stop demanding that you be given something for nothing.
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Ambien Torca
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Posted - 2008.05.25 11:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Molpadia Devaux
What I can't understand is why the people that don't like training skills want them removed. Who is forcing you to train them? Do you need perception 5 to fly a battleship? If you honestly believe that they are a waste, don't do it.
If learning skills are of no value, then there is no reason to give everybody any increase. Those that have a long range outlook tend to value them. What harm do you suffer if somebody else is training them? Demanding to be given free attributes is indeed very much of a whine. Gimme, gimme, gimme, I want, I want, I want, me, me, me.
I have not seen one valid argument for removing this skill tree from the game, only complaints about having to actualy plan what you want to train. Eve has a very broad range of opportunities to explore. I favor more options, not less. Learning skills are prerequisite for other learning skills, nothing else.
If you do not want to train them, move on and train something else, and stop demanding that you be given something for nothing.
Learning skills ainŠt real options though. Anyone who actually wants to play this game (people who play less than year havenŠt really done anything yet) should train them to 5/4 eventually or heŠs a grade A moron. ItŠs immensely amusing to see people wanting desperately to pay to CCP to train skills that help you train skills.
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Oakrayven
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.26 05:14:00 -
[52]
Its also intensly ammuseing to see CCP sit their and try to balance new skills with the existing learning problem, then get yelled at because the "you must have thies skills to be competative" training time keeps sneeking up leading to people wanting the "missing" adv learning or something to further boost stats to help shrink the ever growing prostrate gland that is EVEs skill system to be released to make the long term grind pain go away
Trust Aura. Aura is Your Friend.
If your too paranoid to play EVE. . .
Then your not Paranoid enough to play EVE.
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Yumiko Gossu
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Posted - 2008.05.26 09:23:00 -
[53]
This character should not be something like 4 days old, since thats how long ago I've started playing EVE. The amount of information to take on as a rookie in EVE is exhausting. I'd be stuck dead in my tracks if it weren't for Aura and the help channel. That said, I find the learning skills to be a good thing, because it's the first thing that you truly recognize right away. You can't go wrong with training learning skills to start with. That's pretty much where I started from, primarily because I figured I'd learn about training skills a bit later. This way I didn't waste any time.
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Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co.
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Posted - 2008.05.26 22:29:00 -
[54]
Learning skills are great, they knock like 50 days off of me getting into a Dread.
But anyway, back to the point... I'm awesome :D |
JafoPBCFR
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Posted - 2008.05.27 00:17:00 -
[55]
It a time sink that now is not really needed. theres more then enough skills to fill the time taken by the learning skills.
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Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:01:00 -
[56]
For those complaining about the learning skills being time sinks - aren't all skills just time sinks with an eventual reward?
For those demanding the removal of the learning skills - why do you believe you're suddenly entitled to gain +10 attributes?
Eve is not instant gratification unlike other popular games.
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Bowlo Cheeba
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:03:00 -
[57]
Said it before, I will say it again.
*** PLS READ AND UNDERSTAND ***
Learning skills are the same as any other skill. If you want the benefit of having faster future skill training, then you train learning. If you want your missiles to do more damage, then you train that. If you want to tackle, then you train Ewar skills. In short, you PRIORITIZE which skills you want first.
If you can't be bothered to learn the learning skills, then obviously having slightly faster training IS NOT as important to you as training ship skills or whatever else it is you are training. PERIOD.
Don't sit here and say you want the learning skills for free, for the one and only reason that you don't want to spend the time training them. Cause if you get that, then I want say... Dread 5, cause it's useful, and I don't want to spend the time training it. See my point??
lol @ the ppl still asking for this.
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Dalacha
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:33:00 -
[58]
I'm a new player here, and I am curently training the learning skills.
I would not want them to remove the learning skills. It's a tradeoff; get the shiny toys or better combat skills now or get the benefit of faster training times in the future. I have no problem with this quite the opposite.
And, I do not think it is fair for me to get to skip something that the people who have played this game for so much longer than me had to go through, it would feel almost like cheating.
I like seeing the training time of my skills go down noticably as I train my learning skills personally.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.27 02:44:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2008 02:51:15
Oh, but you do get a much easier ride, compared to one year and several months ago anyway.
You get one L4 and one L2 attribute skill, and L1 learning... before, you would only get one L1, either in learning or in one of the attribute skills.
Not only that, but you used to need L5 in the basic attribute skill before training the corresponding advanced skill... now you only need L4 (which needs less than a fifth of the total training time you needed before - furthermore, you can start training one of the advanceds right away, since you already have one skill at L4).
And let's not even talk about the fact people start with a grand total of over 800k SP... the previous starter options were variable, around 50k-120k SP (with a few unusual selections, only 3 of all possible combinations, not really all that helpful, with a whooping 260k SP or so).
When I read posts like that of the OP and those who agree with him, stuff like "vets want newbies to suffer the same", when not even KNOWING what the vets actually HAD to suffer... pathetic.
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Dalacha
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Posted - 2008.05.27 03:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2008 02:51:15
Oh, but you do get a much easier ride, compared to one year and several months ago anyway.
Ouch, sounds rough. I guess that's the way most MMO's go, it gets easier and easier for the new players to attract more of them when people stop coming in just because of the new game hype.
I guess I will have to still feel like I'm cheating compared to the older players in that case ;).
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Grarr Dexx
Naval Protection Corp
Carpe Universitas
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Posted - 2008.05.27 07:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Hannibal AntePorta
Edited by: Hannibal AntePorta on 24/05/2008 08:45:17
Edited by: Hannibal AntePorta on 24/05/2008 08:44:23
@ Akita
You really didn't respond to the substance, nor did you bring any relevant information to the table in your response to my post save for an off base example.
So I'll ask again, if all learning skills are automatically made to be 5 or all stats +10 and the skills scapped what exactly do established players lose? Other than a percieved loss of time in the past?
I'm sorry but there is no 'other than' here. People who have invested valuable time in these skills will have lost it to everyone else.
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2008.05.27 14:20:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Epidemis on 27/05/2008 14:20:37
People, if you dont understand the OP's point, stop posting.
They are mandatory for any rational beings playing more than 2 months, now now, I know not everyone is rational, but still, respect the OP's point.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.05.27 18:04:00 -
[63]
I guess they're just about the same level of "mandatory" as the frigate, cruiser, battleship, weapon and so on and so forth skills...
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.05.28 18:52:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ulstan on 28/05/2008 18:54:47
Quote:
Why make the new players spend a month learning filler skills?
No one makes new players spend any time learning skills at all. Moreover, it doesn't even take a month to train every single learning skill in the game to IV.
Only brainless clods who can't prioritize or think clearly believe that the first thing they should do is train every learning skill to V, and I think the current situation should exist just to punish such unintelligent people.
You lose *nothing* by delaying training your learning skills by a month or two. Nothing meaningful at all. OTOH you can gain a good set of ship, combat, and support skills to give you something to do while you train the learning skills. Mix them in with your other skills as you need them, don't just train them all in one huge block. Decide what you're going to focus on first and get the relevent 4 learning skills up to rank IV. That takes, what, like, 4 days now?
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zekama
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Posted - 2008.05.29 01:17:00 -
[65]
I started this game about one year and a month ago. I did not train any learning skills except learning.By August of last year I could fly a hulk. Now my friend started training for a hulk at the same time. He finished about 2 week before me and i wish now that i would have train my learning skills then but i did not it was my fault and i payed with it for 2 weeks and now i only have basic a lv 4 and i am doing fine and i took me 2 weeks to train them all to lv for. So people who think learning skills are a bad idea there not you think that a +10 attributes to every body in eve would be easy. CCP can't just push a button it would take months to do just half the current players let alone that are currently not playing and might come back it is just two much for CCP so you guys who think learning skills are going to go away or CCP is going to give any one +10 attribute it is not going to happen unless ccp has a lot of free time on there hand And by doing this CCP could not come out with any more updates there for even if CCP does regret putting out learning skills they are here to stay 
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RaTTuS
BIG
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Posted - 2008.05.29 09:04:00 -
[66]
I totally disagree,
it is all about choices, you dont not need to do any learning skills what so ever , it will just mean you train a lot slower than someone else.
When I started there was only the basic learning skills. I made my choices and started off with the 40k SP you did then,
I trained the skills I needed and plugged at the leaning skills inbetween.
I soon found out I want to play this for >6 months so maxed out the basic ones.
in the mean time I also had the need for a science alt, [I had run out of lab slots on the main] so I made my choices and trained up specifically for what I wanted - this included level 4 on the basic leaning skills [mem + int] so I trained them - my decision.
then we got implants [+3 only and you had to mission ***** for them]- that would of made my training easier ...
then we got advanced learnings [in those days they needed level 5 of the basic ones to run - I said at the time they should of been level 4 requirements but .... no]
now you kids thesedays get 800k SP on character creation , +1 implants from the tutorial agents +2 and +3 for mega cheep price,
and still you whine,
the learning skills are all about longevity - it doesn't matter if you don't train them to 5/5 in the 1st month - 4/3 is fast - if you wait a month and do 5/4 you have not lost out on anything
4/0 is fine in fact if your playing and not buying cash I'm not sure how to get to pay for the advanced learnings. but it is an investment - for the future...
my Alt only recently got his advanced learnings - and he's on 4/3 as that is all he needs to do what he needs to do .
removal of advanced and +5 to all attribs is just a poor way of showing that you want it all now you don't need them ...
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BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
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