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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.05.28 18:31:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
In EVE there must be trade-offs. If you want Amarr Frigate V and Minmatar Frigate V, it takes more time than if you just train Minmatar Frigate V only. The more you add to your training plan, the more benefits you get, but the longer it takes.
Learning skills, on the other hand, are pure meta-gaming. They add nothing in-game, but modify the game itself. They are "mandatory" because adding them actually shortens training plans. In normal skill training, trade-offs like generalization versus specialization give players real choices to make, but with Learning skills, training them is clearly optimal. It is not a real choice.
Learning skills might be worth including if attributes actually influenced the game. For example, if perception and willpower influenced your gunnery, players would have to choose between training an extra point of Iron Will or an extra point of Motion Prediction (or whatever). There would be real trade-offs to be made.
You have 1,036,550 SP in the Learning tree, not the 5,376,000 SP that you'd have if you truly believed what you're saying. Instead of getting your training time minimized overall, you've got yourself into Harbingers and Apocalypses first. You acknowledge by your actions that training Learning skills to shorten your overall training times is not optimal, because if it was optimal you'd have done it that way. Instead of grinding out the complete learning curve, you've chosen to get combat skills early. And I'll say that you're exactly correct to have done so - building your economic capacity has gotten you more attribute points, in the form of +4 implants, than it's cost you. Sure, getting your advanced learnings to 5 pays off in 4 years, and I'm sure Dr Caymus is loving them, but getting your character to self-sufficiency is more valuable to you, both in the form of implants and in the form of play value, than raw SP/hour.
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Fix the forums! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.05.28 18:48:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ulstan on 28/05/2008 18:49:21
Learning skills are fine as is. I say leave them how they are. EVE is about trade offs, and the sooner players get used to trade offs the better.
No one (except particularly ignorant and misguided corporations like some of the ones mentioned in this thread) is forcing you to learn the learning skills before anything else. That's just dumb. And boring. That's not what I did.
Training the basics up to IV in the areas you wish to focus in is 100% painless. Hell nowadays they come trained for you, so you can get up to IV in the advanced skills for a couple attributes in a couple days. Then all your stuff is training MUCH faster than without the skills. Even getting ALL the skills to IV is pretty painless, and then you're basically learning as fast as you can. There's a pretty minor difference between the IV and the V levels.
If you don't want to spend all that time learning the learning skills, you can mix and match skills to keep you progressing through the game at a good clip while still increasing your attributes. This is what I and every other intelligent person does. You have to evaluate whether you want "Little now" or "More later".
Therefore, I suggest leaving it how it is as a deliberate trap to the people who can't think and brainlessly try to train all their learning skills first, instead of learning to think intelligently and prioritize. |
Eirikk
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Posted - 2008.05.29 14:10:00 -
[63]
NAY!!!
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Athre
The HIgher Standard
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Posted - 2008.05.29 15:13:00 -
[64]
as I mentioned in the other thread
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=780098&page=1#27
leave them alone.
What gives you the right to say newcommers are better than vets? thats what you are saying here "no learning skills". When we all signed up it was known that if you were planning on playing less than 1 year, dont go passed learning 4. Now there are advanced learning skills and that 64 day Battleship 5 skill only takes about 20 days. Worth the learning skill time no?
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Madam Kaktar
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Posted - 2008.06.01 01:57:00 -
[65]
Ok, learning skills suck, but they shouldn't be removed from the game.
Increase starter characters' sp by 500,000 (probably not a realistic number) and put all these new sp in learning skills relevant to their career choice.
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Robbo Midlandson
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Posted - 2008.06.01 02:23:00 -
[66]
i'd like to throw my 2 pennies into this here convo, now as a new player (3months or so) i believe learning skills are a good balance for the game, but alot of my mates who started out at the same time as me have left because of the riducilus training times on some of them, now i'm all for keeping them but for the newer player would it not be an idea good or bad to maybe decrese the training time on just the learning skills????
i dont mind happily trying to leave something running in my skills for 15-30 days for something like a dread, or carrier or something useful that helps me progress in the game, but spending 6-10 days as some of my mates have done learning skills like focus and learning just isn't a fun thing.
decrease the training time and maybe some +10 learning implants would be nice for us newbies as were often called, but from my own expierence it would just give the game a nice big kick up the learning skills backside tbh and i for one would welcome that.
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Joe Starbreaker
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Posted - 2008.06.01 05:38:00 -
[67]
An alternative to learning skills might just be an automatic acceleration of learning abilities over time. So for brand new players, a rank 1 skill might take 7 days to get to level 5, but for year old players it'll take 5 days, and eventually after a couple years will level off at 3-4 days (accelerating at a decreasing rate). That way new players (for whom rank 2 skills like Racial Frigate V are a big deal) will have to be patient for those skills, but older players (working on rank 16 skills and the like) will have accelerated training for the much longer skills they're working on.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.01 11:13:00 -
[68]
Face it, learning skills are there to give CCP extra $15-$30 per character. It's a scam. You know, like that 90mil not-quite-navy caracal contract? Same thing. We've all been had. The difference is, some of the suckers are foaming at the mouth, claiming that their shiny new it's-not-navy-srsly caracal is just as good.
If you like learning skills so much, why aren't you asking for more time sinks? How about a rank-10 skill Pointless Waste of Time, level 4 required to fly any cruiser or higher? Anybody who doesn't like it can stick to frigates.
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BlondieBC
7th Tribal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.01 13:02:00 -
[69]
Don't Support.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2008.06.01 15:27:00 -
[70]
Support 100%, as long as I am allowed to redistribute the points spent on Learning to other skills.
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Theel Maas
Errant Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.01 19:48:00 -
[71]
I have them maxed out and I support this 100%. They do not add to the game in a positive way. I think their removal would attract many new players to the game.
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Aya Otosaki
Titan Indurstrial
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Posted - 2008.06.01 20:14:00 -
[72]
remove them
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Ignorance is my strength. |
Arkanjuca
R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2008.06.01 21:06:00 -
[73]
wipe them out
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Whatever works for you...
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Farrqua
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.02 04:02:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Face it, learning skills are there to give CCP extra $15-$30 per character. It's a scam. You know, like that 90mil not-quite-navy caracal contract? Same thing. We've all been had. The difference is, some of the suckers are foaming at the mouth, claiming that their shiny new it's-not-navy-srsly caracal is just as good.
If you like learning skills so much, why aren't you asking for more time sinks? How about a rank-10 skill Pointless Waste of Time, level 4 required to fly any cruiser or higher? Anybody who doesn't like it can stick to frigates.
OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points?
I do not see any solution or cognitive reasoning in your frothing rant.
If you are so set in doing away with them, enlighten us on you plan to do it. There is not one solid theme in this thread. Everyone is all over the place or throwing out one liners because they have no clue.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.02 04:56:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Farrqua
OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points?
Compensation? In EVE, you don't get reimbursed after falling victim to a scam. Instead, you try to avoid getting scammed in the future.
What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.02 05:33:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Originally by: Farrqua
OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points?
Compensation? In EVE, you don't get reimbursed after falling victim to a scam. Instead, you try to avoid getting scammed in the future.
What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly?
Heh, that's a good one.
...
What's that? You're serious? 
...
No, really? You actually mean that? You actually mean to suggest that getting scammed by a player via a mechanism you ought to have known was susceptible to it, and having two months of skill training arbitrarily ripped off your character by the devs with nothing to show for it are the same thing?
*jaw hits floor*
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Fix the forums! |
Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.02 10:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
No, really? You actually mean that? You actually mean to suggest that getting scammed by a player via a mechanism you ought to have known was susceptible to it, and having two months of skill training arbitrarily ripped off your character by the devs with nothing to show for it are the same thing?
On one hand, we have the unfortunate idiot who farmed missions for a week just to afford to accept a freeform contract.
On the other hand we all flipped enough burgers to make $30 and spend it in subscription fees to train learning skills.
Contracts were changed to be more readable in order to make scamming harder. Victims didn't get reimbursement.
Learning is just another stupid game mechanic. I don't see why its victims must get something back.
Is it because real money is involved? What if I buy 300mil ISK via GTCs, then lose it to a surprise extra-long session timer, do I get my money back?
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ViolenTUK
Vindicated Exiles
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Posted - 2008.06.02 10:47:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz
Learning is just another stupid game mechanic. I don't see why its victims must get something back.
That is quite the most stupid line of reasoning i have ever seen on these forums. Thankfully CCP arent going to pay any attention to you.
www.eve-players.com |
Pastor Blew
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Posted - 2008.06.02 10:51:00 -
[79]
I do not support this idea. Learning skills are a part of this game that should stay.
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RoCkEt X
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:04:00 -
[80]
i dont support this, as i've said in the other thread.
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Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.06.02 11:39:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Voculus on 02/06/2008 11:39:22
HUGE thumbs up from me on the removal of learning skills. Supposing they ever do get removed, I'd be fine with not even being reimbursed for them, knowing that Eve was a better game.
Learning skills don't make Eve unique - they make it a bigger grind. Training times across the board, from rank 1 to the ludicrous rank 14, all need to be slashed in half, too.
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Marcellus Corteaz
Alt Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
That is quite the most stupid line of reasoning i have ever seen on these forums. Thankfully CCP arent going to pay any attention to you.
Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread. Now go run along while the adults talk.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:11:00 -
[83]
Quote:
What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly?
Wait, why should we tweak the learning rates? Why aren't you supporting a plain 'remove all learning skills' platform?
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Theel Maas
Errant Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.02 18:27:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Theel Maas on 02/06/2008 18:27:59
Because many skills are designed around the concept of learning skills existing. Without them we'd all lose 11+ points per attribute, making skills take .3 to 3x as long to train, depending on default attributes and implants.
Rather than removing the learning skills I'd like to see cybernetics expanded upon and replacing the learning skills with these. Take augmentations to the next level, and along with it allow players to gain more attributes through that. For example, these new learning augments might be school-specific (Engineering/Gunnery/whatever) and/or have SP caps that once reached they would expire and free up the slot they were inserted into. In the meantime they might produce extremely accelerated results in the skill school you're pursuing.
If these implants were craftable you'd have the added benefit of creating a new market, and placing greater demand on current supply.
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.06.02 19:50:00 -
[85]
I definietly agree.
Iv introduced a lot of people to eve, but a lot of them got bored to start with due to learning new skills very slowly. I then tell them to learn the learning skills first, but then they dont get into new ships for ages and again lose interest in the game.
My idea would be to start new people with higher atributes, which will then slowly degrade to like they are now over the first month or two of gameplay. This would mean that new people can get a decent ship and advance through the game quickly to start with (making them more interested in the game and more likely to stay), and then by their atributes start to drop they will be happy with the ships they have and will be used to the long training times (a lot of my friends were ****ed off by even having to wait an hour or two for a lvl 1 skill when they started)
Might have some issues with farmers making new accounts following a ban very quickly, but I think this idea could be workable.
red
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Konquera McCall
Acme Import Export
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:57:00 -
[86]
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:48:00 -
[87]
Edited by: procurement specialist on 04/06/2008 16:49:15
why not just take the sp in learning skills atm and let you reassign it from the web to new skills? Then give everyone +7-9 for all attributes. I have learning trained to 9 atm. most people train tehm to at leas 7 or 8. The +10 people would suddenly get 5m sp to throw into anything else they wanted anyway.
alternatively you could have an extra 2 - 10 skill points from the learning pool tick off every second in addition to your current learning until the sp from the pool was depleted in game. This will at least make people log in to change skills still without instantly giving them bs V without in game training time. Then do the same with the attribute bump.
The difference is players can grief and scam other players. CCP should not as there is no way to defend against them greifing you. (ignoring lag issue  )
edit also if you did the second idea with the newbie builds that come with learning skills. they could learn those first skills much much faster.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.04 17:45:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 04/06/2008 17:55:33
Regarging the issue about "don't steal from experienced players without compensation": Don't remove learning skills. Give new characters the learning skills (at 4/4) right away. Nothing taken away from the vets, only added to the rookies.
Not supporting this idea. I'm ambivalent about the learning skills; getting them to 4 takes less than a week, and you can fly a frig easily until then, learning the game. Then you earn ISK, get the advanced skills and train them to 3, which is also ok. My main problem with learning skills is not that they're such a big problem, but rather that they don't actually add anything to the game, except wait time, which is a bit problematic.
Actually, I do think that the whole attribute thing needs a revamp.
- Remove starting attribute differences. Yes, no more uber-Achura and lol-whatever.
- Every race starts with all attributes at 8. After that, only learning skills (invested time) and implants (risked ISK) affect the attributes.
- Bloodline and ancestry affect your starting learning skills. Say, two learning skills start out at 4, two more at 3, remaining one at 2. This would mean that a new player can dive into their preferred area right away, and just need a few days to bring up the remaining areas to 4 if you want to broaden their horizon, too. Advanced learning skills can be trained up when ISK allows, retaining the time+ISK now vs. time+ISK later choice. (I wouldn't mind just starting out at 12 or so, and not having advanced learning skills, but as said above, I'm ambivalent about that)
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Tellnan Matkiel
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.06.04 20:41:00 -
[89]
Don't support.
As a fairly new player myself (just over three months) I find nothing wrong with them. If people are unable to decide by themselves whether learning skills are or are not a good investment for their plans then why on earth are they playing a game that is all about various risks and costs versus rewards?
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Bane Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.04 21:11:00 -
[90]
I definitely support this.
Abolish learning skills, give everyone +10 to all stats, reimburse the skillpoints from people who trained the learning skills. |
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