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JDTerry84	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:29:00 - [1] After playing eve for about a year now, i have to recommend that learning skills be completely done away with. As a new player wanting to get started in the game, i hated the idea of having to learn how to learn. It seemed very un-necessary. im sure older players can be compensated in some way, and there can be a solution worked out by someone much smarter than me in terms of figuring out exactly what to do. My point is: spending a month or more learning how to learn, in a complex game like this is just crazy, and on more than one occasion, i thought about quitting the game entirely.
aUTOKILL Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:43:00 - [2] Learning skills are one of the things that makes eve different from other games. Eve needs them to calculate how much SP/hr you will get. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
xena zena Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis	Posted - 2008.05.24 04:18:00 - [3] I agree, your not learning to learn, your learning to learn more efficiently. You can learn in your dumb initial state, or you can get smarter and learn faster. :P
Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.24 07:44:00 - [4] It's a way to give a boost to the long-termers. The time I have spent training up the learning skills (to level 5 tier 1 and level 4 tier 2) has more than been made up in the time it has taken off my skill training. Yes it's a pain, but has significant benefit in the long term. /not signed
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.24 13:54:00 - [5] Originally by: JDTerry84 After playing eve for about a year now, i have to recommend that learning skills be completely done away with. As a new player wanting to get started in the game, i hated the idea of having to learn how to learn. It seemed very un-necessary. so maybe we should get rid of all skilling requirements as I hate having to wait to use a new shiny ;-0 Originally by: JDTerry84 My point is: spending a month or more learning how to learn, in a complex game like this is just crazy, and on more than one occasion, i thought about quitting the game entirely. It is about separating pilots out. If everyone could learn the same skills at the same speed then you'd be able to draw a reasonably direct line between how long you had been a pilot and what your skills probably are, making pvp and everything else less interesting. If everyone's car had the same acceleration and top speed driving would be more boring and only one company would bother making cars! As a new podpilot you get to choose whether to get in a ship and start shooting people straight away (albeit not so powerfully) or to train those skills faster in the long term but fly a weaker ship initially. Personally, when the new character start-up SPs were massively boosted I felt it a trifle unfair to those of us who had created our characters pre-boost, but I lived with it (though 'killed off' one of my alts in order to re-create her with better skills). How you fly, what you fly, what you do in EVE is all down to choices. How fast you learn those skills is just as much a choice ... IZ My principles
Illaria M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:39:00 - [6] I would happily forfeit my 1.4m SP in Learnings, if I newbies would get a better gaming experience from it. The problem with learnings is that to employ them efficiently you should learn them as soon as possible, i.e. at the beginning of your piloting career. Even when you discount adavanced learnings and only stick to the basic learning skills in the beginning, it will take away several days of training right off the bat at the very start of your EvE experience. A few days may seem not very relevant to us vets who happily train a month for Battleship V, but they may seem excruciating to a newbie who starts new. They don't really give you a feel of progression, and add the initial impression that EvE is slow and boring.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:52:00 - [7] Not supported. I anything, we will need a new tier of learning skills at some point, and +7 learning implants are already in the database waiting for CCP to deem them necessary for release. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.24 23:48:00 - [8] I've had this idea that learning skills are in a separate system in which they learn over time while other skills learn.
BlondieBC 7th Tribal Legion	Posted - 2008.05.25 03:06:00 - [9] I like learning skills the way the are.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 05:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Illaria I would happily forfeit my 1.4m SP in Learnings, if I newbies would get a better gaming experience from it. The problem with learnings is that to employ them efficiently you should learn them as soon as possible, i.e. at the beginning of your piloting career. Even when you discount adavanced learnings and only stick to the basic learning skills in the beginning, it will take away several days of training right off the bat at the very start of your EvE experience. A few days may seem not very relevant to us vets who happily train a month for Battleship V, but they may seem excruciating to a newbie who starts new. They don't really give you a feel of progression, and add the initial impression that EvE is slow and boring. You'd be willing to give up your 1.4 million, but would the guy who just burned a month and a half getting his advanceds to 5? I bet he'd be fuming, and with good reason. I bought a roommate of mine to Eve a few months back, and I think his experience is typical enough. He's an Amarr missioner, and weaved his learning skills in with his mission skills. He's a WoWer as well(still haven't gotten him to kick that bad habit), meaning he's only a casual player, meaning that he skills into the next tier of mission ship faster than he accumulates the cash and standings for it. As such, he's had plenty of time to train learning skills up, and he's gotten them to 4/4 with a couple 5's. He's probably a week or two behind where he'd be if he were trained like an alt, but he didn't sacrifice his ability to play, and he didn't sacrifice all that much time. Sure, the guy who starts out planning to pirate really hates the learning curve, but for most players, it's a pretty acceptable part of the game. 18 million and a few weeks is not an insurmountable speed bump, especially when it's optional and can be delayed. I'm a perfectionist with my skills, but most people aren't. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Slickdrac JET FORCE Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:02:00 - [11] I'm for getting rid of them because it does drive some newbies away because they are not improving on anything except the ability to improve themselves, and so it's equivalent to not leveling up at all. I'm against getting rid of it because it keeps newbies away, and I am of the opinion that we are at way too many people in this game for the amount of power it has and the amount of space we have. Also, it adds a layer of buffer for new players getting to the level of older players, and with the swarms of low SP's able to easily dispatch higher SP's thru their sheer numbers, older players need all the help they can get mostly against tho I suck at forums
TSucka Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.25 09:39:00 - [12] This is just THE BEST idea suggested, the solution is simple, remove learning skills, and let players put their SP they had in Learning somewhere else where they want to put it. Advantages: New players gets to experience eve A bit less ISK spent on skills (fatal to new players) Overall better gaming experience for new players Disadvantages: Players who have maxed their learning skills will lose their advantage to whom hadn't (I have mine maxed, it doesn't bother me) Conclusion: Let EvE be a game where it doesn't depend on level or time in the game, and it should most of all depend on skill, fleet commanding and all this. Players in WoW often say "It doesn't depend that much on level" but in theory you will never see a level 40 character beat up a level 70 character (unless he is sleeping). This is the beauty of EvE, which in my opinion should be kept. Why become a part of the mainstream MMOs when EvE is already unique.
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:06:00 - [13] I'd love to see learning skills balanced out by removing them entirely, and giving all players the effects of having each and every learning skill at level 5. This could either be done by removing the skills and their bonuses, and replacing them with a global stat boost or by removing the skills and their bonuses, and scaling skillpoint accumulation globally to match it (And make it as though everyone effectively had each learning skill at level 10 invisibly). Why this is good for both new players and old players: All players have the benefit of an increased global skillpoint gain, which speeds up the process of getting things in general. New players benefit the most from this because it will greatly help with accelerating them into a capable position of matching players who have been around for many months or years longer than they have. And, of course, old players benefit as well, because by simply improving skillpoint gain globally, you don't actually invalidate the time and resources that those players spent in the learning skills. They have the advantage of having had the faster skillpoint accumulation rate for however long they've had the learning skills. I agree that Learning skills were a mistake to put in the game, and it needs to be corrected. And yes, I realize that there are a handful of players who will be ***ed off that their very recent month of skill training was "For nothing", but the overall benefit to the game SORELY outweighs that. And if nothing else, CCP could announce that the change would be coming something like a month ahead of time. This gives players who were going to train them notice (So that they don't start), and gives the players who just trained them a chance to make use of the invested skillpoints prior to the change, even if only a small amount. "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."*
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:55:00 - [14] Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. www.eve-players.com
TSucka Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:57:00 - [15] Originally by: ViolenTUK Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. Which is pretty much a lie, would you like to join a game and be told you will have to travel in a frigate and pay for it the first six months of it? I've got a load of friends who left eve because of that. Learning skills is a waste of playing time, and of ISK. Besides how will a new players afford this if they can only fly around in a Ibis or another noobship? "New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them." Yes of course I mean, who wouldn't want to wait six months before they can play the actual game?, it's just nice . "Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them." Everyone knows how much a pain it was to train all these damn skills , I didn't feel "encouraged" by training them thinking "Man I can wait to log on EvE to swap to another learning skill, it's just so fun to learn" The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. Regards TSucka
Finraer M.A.D.	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:24:00 - [16] Learning skills as they currently stand are a great way for those new players to rebalance their stats - I think that their removal would lead to a lot of new players being stuck regretting having rolled a character that doesn't have stats that suit the way they want to play. As such, I think their removal would cause a lot more harm than good. However, I think that learning skills are biased in their design, since the basic skills rely on mem and int and the advanced skills rely on various other stats. I'd vote against their removal (if I could grin). However, I would vote for the removal of any stat-related bias in their training times. If you make it so that if you want to train Willpower to boost your focus in skill training, then you can, or that you can train Charisma because you left that stat very low on creation - but do it so that you don't need to push your Int and Mem in advance to optimise that training time - then I think that would be a worthy change. It would remove the need to "learn how to learn learning skills" (to misquote the OP), changing the skills into an option to focus or refocus learning and not a skill tree in their own right. Fin
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:51:00 - [17] You know what, with the idea brought up about getting to move that sp somewhere else, I now fully support this idea. I would LOVE 5 million sp to just get moved into something useful. because lets face it, it's not an advantage to older players to train faster off these learning skills. That is something you gain by just being older. However how to deal with remaining stuff? for instance character creation? One idea might be to keep basic learning skills and get rid of advanced learning skills. Then add 5 points to everyones base stats. I think this would be ok, only having to go up 5. that OR take out advanced learning skills, reduce everyones stats by 5, and then intro duce up to plus 10 implants. Also convert all +2 implants into +4 +3's into +6's +4's into +8's +5's into +10 this way a plus 10 will be the price that a plus 5 was. and then intro duce the new implants inbetween... OR! one last silly idea, just reduce the sp needed for advanced learning skills. It makes 0 sense but make them rank 1?
SugarFr33 RAW MACABRE	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:06:00 - [18] In a game where there is a skill for everything removing the learning skills just sounds ridiculous. It just causes too many problems for those who have already done them all. RAW MACABRE Recruitment Thread
Lu'Marat	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:07:00 - [19] Edited by: Lu''Marat on 25/05/2008 15:09:21 Sorry, but I don't see the issue. By now I have my advanced learning skills at 3 or 4, and very minimal planning ahead made sure I didn't waste any time on training them but got my actual training done faster. Taking away the learning skills and making all other skills just train as if your learning skills were maxed would only reduce the diversity and focus in careers, and the same goes for switching to a system based entirely on implants. May I also point out what a nightmare it would be to figure out how many SP each and every of the thousands of characters in EVE would have if learning skills had not been part of the formula?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:15:00 - [20] Originally by: TSucka Originally by: ViolenTUK Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. Which is pretty much a lie, would you like to join a game and be told you will have to travel in a frigate and pay for it the first six months of it? I've got a load of friends who left eve because of that. Learning skills is a waste of playing time, and of ISK. Besides how will a new players afford this if they can only fly around in a Ibis or another noobship? "New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them." Yes of course I mean, who wouldn't want to wait six months before they can play the actual game?, it's just nice . "Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them." Everyone knows how much a pain it was to train all these damn skills , I didn't feel "encouraged" by training them thinking "Man I can wait to log on EvE to swap to another learning skill, it's just so fun to learn" The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. Regards TSucka Basic learning skills to 4 is cheap and only takes a few days(especially given that a modern character only needs to train 3 of them). And the proper progression of finances is to buy a cruiser, then use cruiser proceeds to buy things like advanced learning books. You can theoretically mine them out in a Bantam, but that's just not fun. And even if you were to train them all to 5 with no implants, it wouldn't take you 6 months - that's just hyperbole. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Marlon Hanharr United Sentients	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:18:00 - [21] I would absolutely love to have the learning skills removed if it meant I got my wasted sp reimbursed. Even if I didn't though I still think it would make great sense to get rid of this waste of time. All they really do is make sure your character is useless and not able to have much fun for the first 2-3 weeks or more.
Quincy TawHarr Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:41:00 - [22] Edited by: Quincy TawHarr on 26/05/2008 14:48:25 I agree, learning skills should be removed from the game. Learning skills are for all intents and purposes mandatory. Let's assume you have the skills at basic 4 and advanced 4, giving an 8 point boost to every stat. If you choose not to learn them you effectively lose 12 SP per minute. Which is 720 per hour, 17280 a day; and 6.3 million a year... There is nothing optional about that kind of payoff. New Players are explicitly told that they must train these skills as soon as possible. However the buy in, while nothing at all to an established player is absolutely maddening to a new player. Nothing is worse than training skills that add nothing to your direct experience. Learning skills are the only skills that do nothing to improve you direct playing experience. The primary reason that I stuck with this game on the third try was simply because I chose to spread these skills over three months. My first try was summer 04. It's now 08, that about 1.5 years of subscription that could have been (I've been here for 2 solid years now with no real plans of moving on). So that's about $215 that CCP could have had if they hadn't scared me away... The question is how many more are they willing to push away (and have pushed away) with a silly scheme like this. There are many things about EVE that make this special, the full on pvp, the full economy and sandbox atmosphere. However, when I am paying to play in the sandbox... I want to play in the sandbox from the get go. Not stand outside and be told how to count to 10. That's just me though... EDIT: I'm not even sure the Advanced skills were in back then, but they were still a rather silly idea then IMO. Scrapheap fun on Bombs: Takahashi: Atm you're essentially "firing the equivalent of a Ferox" Dixon: Letting people fire actual Ferox's would be nice... it'd make them almost useful.
Nariana Verex Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.26 16:39:00 - [23] Not signed simply for the fact that Learning Skills are as useful as the time you put into them. By all means, if you feel that the SP put into them is better used elsewhere, then do not put much into them. My friend and I started playing EVE at about the same time, and while he chose to pump his learning skills very high at first to be more efficient in the long run - I chose to instead put a little bit into learning at first, and then learn skills immediately that would turn a profit in ISK instead. Here it is two years later, and while he does have more SP than my character does he is just now catching up. And since then, I have put more effort into a learning skill now and then. Saying having the Learning skills in the game makes it so newbies need to spend six months pumping them is like saying you need to have Small Energy Turret V just to use a basic T1 dual pulse. Sure, it would be NICE to have that skill at max, but you can be useful without them. Just don't neglect them completely. Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space.
Maidel Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.26 17:27:00 - [24] Edited by: Maidel on 26/05/2008 17:30:22 I aggree that the advanced learning skills were a massive screw up. The basic ones are a good idea. They are cheap, easy to train quickly to a point and can all be at level 4 in less than a week. Easy to distribute them inbetween other skills. My suggestion would be to remove the advanced learning skill from the game entirely. Give everyone a +5 boost across the board to each attribute. Ok, so what happens to everyone else who has already trained the skills. Well they dont lose the skill points, but they dont get a bunch to spend all in one go - what should happen is they end up in a holding space and you train at double speed until you have spent all the skill points. Within a few months everyone will have spent their spare points and it will be as if they never existed.
Kame Malice Mitsukashi Holdings Limited	Posted - 2008.05.26 18:15:00 - [25] They are already balanced, rremoving them would be a universal F***YOU to all the players who actualy care about the time and effort put into them. /unsigned
Max Nero Xeno Tech Corp United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:05:00 - [26] Not Signed, Learning Skills are an investment, not a requirement. Just like a faction ship, officer gear or those snake implants. These things are not mandatory. Instead of ISK, learning costs you time. Saying that learning skills need to be removed is like saying that faction mods should be seeded at t1 prices. Why? Because it just takes too damn long to learn skills for t2. All them old players have way too much ISK so they can afford faction unlike newbies, so I say slash prices to level the field. Get my logic?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:16:00 - [27] Not supported. Reasons : Linkage. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Bloodyranger Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:28:00 - [28] Hmm learning skills are just filling skills in my opinion. They cost isk and a lot of gametime to train, if you haven't fully trained them they are a pain. /signed bigtime Regards BloodyRanger --------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.26 22:23:00 - [29] The only reason older players want to keep them in the game is for hazing. The attitude is "we all had to do it, so so should you." The learning skills do not add anything to the game. They don't make it more fun. All they do is discourage people from staying with EVE (just as the concept of "grind to level 70, then you can play" drives people away from WoW). Compensate the players who've trained them, maybe, and get rid of them entirely. For that matter, *attributes* should also be eliminated. We are meant to learn how to play EvE by doing so, by learning from one another, etc. Not having good documentation is a design decision made by CCP in order to make the game more social. Choosing attributes, however, is one thing you have to do before entering the game and meeting other players. Attributes add nothing to the game, except giving players reasons not to play the races and bloodlines they'd otherwise choose. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Cautet Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.27 01:06:00 - [30]

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