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Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:59:00 - [91] Give everyone +10 in all attributes leave basic learning skill alone Refund sp spent in learning skills by doubling training speed until you gain back twice the amount of SP you lost. Remove the 800k SP character builds and revert them to before they were introduced. Newbies need to spend more time in frigates, and less time on learning skills.
Maabuss Exiles of Chaos	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:56:00 - [92] If learning skills are removed, I expect to be reimbursed on the full SP I spent on the learning block and be allowed to put it where I please. I didn't spend months on that block to be screwed later on. Regards, Maabuss ____________________________________________ You Can't Outrun Death Forever, But You Can Make The Bastard Work For It.
Satis Tyr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:12:00 - [93] Learning Skills should be done away with and skill training time should be re-ballanced once they are gone. CCP might even give us our skill points back.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:23:00 - [94] Silly @ OP. Eve is more than SP. Learning the game is more than just being able to fly whatever class of hull. And that, takes time. If the process of waiting for skills to finish is boring, then look at what happens in the meantime. Just want to say that you're playing for the wrong reason if copying some meaningless number into your corp chat is the highlight of the playtime. o7
Sanity Lost	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:57:00 - [95] I disagree. Learning skills should stay as as far as i can see they activly encourage people to stay with the game as they teach how rewarding planning your career can be.
tastylady	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:59:00 - [96] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread. Now go run along while the adults talk. You had better leave at the same time. I think sir you have a little growing up to do.
Macon Squaredealer Squaredeal Enterprises	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:12:00 - [97] I don't support this idea. Leave them alone.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:10:00 - [98] Edited by: Voculus on 11/06/2008 22:11:45 Originally by: Sanity Lost I disagree. Learning skills should stay as as far as i can see they activly encourage people to stay with the game as they teach how rewarding planning your career can be. You are incorrect, sir. After wasting so many days and weeks on learning skills, I did not walk away with an appreciation of career planning. I ALREADY KNEW THE VALUE OF THAT! I'm not a child, and this is a game, for crying out loud. All I came away with, was resentment that I had to flush almost 2 months down the drain in order to stay abreast of everyone else. In any case, the devs themselves have stated that they would like to see learning skills done away with. I don't think you'll find more resounding endorsement of this thread, than that. _________________________________________________________
Dagas Hunter	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:49:00 - [99] I believe I heard a CCP guy talking about this some time ago, but they had no good solutions. I agree that having to spend a couple of months to train how to train faster is slowing things down. It takes forever before you can even start playing the game and you don't want to train anything before learning because you know you'll loose SP in the long run by doing that. I already have all learning skills maxxed out so if they plan to take them away I hope I'll get compensated somehow for the millions of SP invested (4-5m or something I believe).
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:29:00 - [100] Personally, having gone through the drudgery of training all basic learning to 4 and advanced to 4 (except Charisma of course ), I would have no problem if they were wiped from the database. Would I be disappointed at the wasted time? Maybe, but I think I'd be more excited at seeing a hated enemy vanquished. That's what the learning skills were/are to me, an obstacle to be suffered through, not an engaging part of the gameplay or an element of what makes the experience fun and enjoyable. Honestly, if I weren't so stubborn/obsessive, I don't think there's any way I would have lasted in EVE through the bulk of my learning time. As it was I barely logged in for a good part of it. For all the vets who say "we had to do it, so they should stay," do you guys actually hear yourselves? Do you realize how much elitist crap that is? Or do you just not remember what it was like? Don't give me this "it was a good experience," or "it was fun," crap, I've been there, I've done it, and it stank like a manure heap in August. If we get compensated for our time spent training learning skills, that'd just be icing on the cake. It'd be simple enough, just let those with SP in learning skills spend those points on oether skills. Whichever skill they activate for training next gets those points applied to it instantly, and so on with the next skill until they run out of extra SP, and then normal training resumes. But as I said, I'd be happy enough just to see them go. If you're concerned about being able to use learning skills to correct poor attribute choices made at character creation, I have a couple ideas on that. One is to have a limited set of trainable skills, similar to the current learning skills, except with the training time independent of the current level of the skill, but rather scaling according to your current level in that attribute (minus implants). The idea being that if you have a lower attribute, you can raise it faster, and higher attributes become more difficult to raise. This would allow for some quick equalization of neglected attributes while limiting the relative need or ability to boost anything beyond a maximum level. The other idea I had is to introduce new implants, possibly requiring a new implant slot, possibly just making use of an existing one. These implants would boost one attribute at the cost of lowering another by the same amount. This would allow for a rebalance of sorts. For example, if you put too many points in everyone's favorite attribute, Charisma, you could use one of these implants to shift your wasted points to something a little more useful. Anyway, that's my 0.02 ISK on the subject, let's hope pooling our money adds up to something worthwhile. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:36:00 - [101] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Personally, having gone through the drudgery of training all basic learning to 4 and advanced to 4 (except Charisma of course ), I would have no problem if they were wiped from the database. Would I be disappointed at the wasted time? Maybe, but I think I'd be more excited at seeing a hated enemy vanquished. That's what the learning skills were/are to me, an obstacle to be suffered through, not an engaging part of the gameplay or an element of what makes the experience fun and enjoyable. Honestly, if I weren't so stubborn/obsessive, I don't think there's any way I would have lasted in EVE through the bulk of my learning time. As it was I barely logged in for a good part of it. For all the vets who say "we had to do it, so they should stay," do you guys actually hear yourselves? Do you realize how much elitist crap that is? Or do you just not remember what it was like? Don't give me this "it was a good experience," or "it was fun," crap, I've been there, I've done it, and it stank like a manure heap in August. If we get compensated for our time spent training learning skills, that'd just be icing on the cake. It'd be simple enough, just let those with SP in learning skills spend those points on oether skills. Whichever skill they activate for training next gets those points applied to it instantly, and so on with the next skill until they run out of extra SP, and then normal training resumes. But as I said, I'd be happy enough just to see them go. If you're concerned about being able to use learning skills to correct poor attribute choices made at character creation, I have a couple ideas on that. One is to have a limited set of trainable skills, similar to the current learning skills, except with the training time independent of the current level of the skill, but rather scaling according to your current level in that attribute (minus implants). The idea being that if you have a lower attribute, you can raise it faster, and higher attributes become more difficult to raise. This would allow for some quick equalization of neglected attributes while limiting the relative need or ability to boost anything beyond a maximum level. The other idea I had is to introduce new implants, possibly requiring a new implant slot, possibly just making use of an existing one. These implants would boost one attribute at the cost of lowering another by the same amount. This would allow for a rebalance of sorts. For example, if you put too many points in everyone's favorite attribute, Charisma, you could use one of these implants to shift your wasted points to something a little more useful. Anyway, that's my 0.02 ISK on the subject, let's hope pooling our money adds up to something worthwhile. Actually asking the leaning skills to be taken a way and not giving anything back to the "Vets" is kind of a slap in the face. As you call them Elitist for telling you "We did why shouldn't you" is in the same vein as you telling them "Tough Deal with, it sucks". So you are being no better than the Elitist bad guys you are so bent on making sure they do not get what they have worked hard for. Because you are not only taking away what they invested, you are taking away what they will earn in the future.
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:05:00 - [102] Edited by: ViolenTUK on 12/06/2008 12:06:18 The Dev's considered removing learning skills from the game but at present they have no plans for removing them. I really donÆt see what the problem with learning these skills are. Learning skills were introduced to increase the speed of which you learn they donÆt slow you down at all. Before learning skills were introduced the attributes were no different and learning skills were there as an investment in time which helped players learn new skills if they took time to do so. With this in mind I find it a difficult pill to swallow when I see players say that they slow down you overall learning as they are seen as mandatory. The net effect is that increase your sp per hour not reduce. I can see the differing points of view in this thread and I can understand that some players may be put off with the prospect of putting 2 weeks into learning skills I however have seen most of the players I have talked to been actively encouraged by learning skills and feel they add to the game. I feel I have kept and introduced new players to the game not lost them. The eve community has mixed emotions about learning skills. I cant see learning skills being removed from the game and if they were you can be assured that ccp would reimburse the investment made. Saying otherwise is outright foolish. There is one possible work around for learning skills if they do eventually fall into the grey. What could be done is to give all players in eve 800000 sp and include this in the new character creation and invest these skill points into learning skills. This way new players would gain a great deal jumping to 1.6 million skill points and they wont need to spend a great deal of time in learning skills. Older players such as myself will almost not notice an 800000 increase and would in fact serve to close the gap a little between veteran and new players which in itself is an issue for debate. CCp did do this once before in a patch not long after I started playing. It was the most fair and equitable method conceivable at the time. www.eve-players.com
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.12 16:39:00 - [103] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Siresa Talesi ... Actually asking the leaning skills to be taken a way and not giving anything back to the "Vets" is kind of a slap in the face. As you call them Elitist for telling you "We did why shouldn't you" is in the same vein as you telling them "Tough Deal with, it sucks". So you are being no better than the Elitist bad guys you are so bent on making sure they do not get what they have worked hard for. Because you are not only taking away what they invested, you are taking away what they will earn in the future. Maybe you should go back and read the part where I trained the skills myself, past tense, been there, done that. I think that buys me a little authority on the matter. So far as compensating those of us who have trained the learning skills, I gave my suggestions for it. I don't think that it is a bad idea to do so, my point was just that I hated having to go through those skills so much that I personally could care less whether I was compensated as long as it meant the skills would be gone. I never said to take away anything from those with the skills, just said that personally I would feel little loss if the skills were removed without compensation. "We did it, so should you" is not a valid reason for a decision. If there is a better way to handle the situation, why not take it?
JGR Mao JGR Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.12 20:10:00 - [104] No support for this idea. I would infact suggest even more advanced learning skills being introduced
Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:31:00 - [105] Edited by: Nynaeve Ares on 13/06/2008 14:31:33 I'd go for somewhere in between - get rid of basic learning skills and give everyone +5 on all their stats, (problem is how to compensate people who have trained those skills already) and i'd keep the advanced learning skills as a choice of progression. Two months training learning skills is a rediculous barrier to entry imo.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:26:00 - [106] Can't support this, although it's a good idea I don't trust CCP to refund the ~15m sp I have spread across my accounts in learning.
Kitoba Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:31:00 - [107] I will support introducing level 3 to 54432645 training skills, taking at least ten thousand years to max out, so everybody will stop whining.
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Nynaeve Ares Edited by: Nynaeve Ares on 13/06/2008 14:31:33 I'd go for somewhere in between - get rid of basic learning skills and give everyone +5 on all their stats, (problem is how to compensate people who have trained those skills already) and i'd keep the advanced learning skills as a choice of progression. Two months training learning skills is a rediculous barrier to entry imo. It doesnt take 2 months. 2 weeks will bring you up to par typically. www.eve-players.com
Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:58:00 - [109] You're playing minigolf then, my par is advanced learning skills to lvl 4.
Fartarse UK Corp Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:30:00 - [110] [no support] So, let's see. Those peeps who want to scrap the learning skills are (generally) using the reason that they are a waste of time! Fine, have CCP return your SP's, but at the same time have them reduce your attributes respectively. You seem to want the benefits of the higher attributes without having to expend the time it takes to get them there. Put simply, you want a quick-fix, 'I win' button! New characters now start with 800,000+ SP's compared to the <80,000 older players had - with my not-quite-maxed learning skills, that is equivalent to approx 2 weeks of training SOCT skills now only have a pre-requisite of the relevant basic skill at lvl 4, as against the previous requirement of lvl 5 - saving over 30 days training Implants now cost < 25% of the price they were 3 years ago and with the new Loyalty Store, they are much easier to get hold of. Assuming that you don't want to completely remove training time from the game, there is nothing wrong with the current system. Not training learning skills does not stop anyone from playing the game, it merely means it will take longer to attain the necessary skills. Investing some of your training time to the learning skills will reap rewards in the long-term. At the end of the day, Eve-Online has always been a game where effort = reward. Removing learning skills would be similar to starting other RPG's at Level 10 and in doing so, the players would miss an important part of the game. Part of the magic of Eve is that while you are training those learning skills, you are also learning how to play the game!
Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Fartarse At the end of the day, Eve-Online has always been a game where effort = reward. Removing learning skills would be similar to starting other RPG's at Level 10 and in doing so, the players would miss an important part of the game. What are you, straight from special ed? Clicking "train skill" doesn't take effort. Unlike, you know, grinding levels in WoW. Now, you might argue that farming 22.5mil to buy learning skills is a fun activity that every new player must go through. It might be hard to understand for an industry-oriented player such as yourself (you are missing accel control 4 by the way), but not everybody enjoys running missions over and over.
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:55:00 - [112] Edited by: Alty MacAlterson on 15/06/2008 14:54:57 Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz industry-oriented player You misspelled "stupid carebear"
Hurtado Soneka	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:13:00 - [113] Am in favour of this idea, a global attribute boost across the board is fair, makes the game more exciting (especially for new players) and removes a branch of skills that is, more or less, completely pointless. A skill to learn skills faster mmmmm.....rather get on with the game and hundreds of skills that do things interesting tbh!
Feng Schui Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:20:00 - [114] Where is the Advanced Learning skillbook Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Terail Zoqial	Posted - 2008.06.23 16:42:00 - [115] I agree, I have 5/4 in all skills and would still be quite happy for CCP to do away with them, they are yet another time sink which take attention from the joy of eve imho.
Colonel Rykef Animus Exuro	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:44:00 - [116] Most people who quit eve never get to see the exciting bit that we see as their still bogged down by learning skills or being forced to do very very long skills, I say just do away with the first teir of learning have have just the SOCAT books
Franconian Eagle Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2008.06.27 14:56:00 - [117] You only train learning skills to overcome an initial handicap. Therefore I support this.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.27 19:19:00 - [118] Even vets had to train them, so leave them be and introduce more afaic.
Neth'Rae Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.27 19:55:00 - [119] I quit playing EVE when I first started because of I got tired of training learning skills for a month.. Now I got all at lvl 4 or 5, but I would have much rather have them removed for the newer players. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Cpt Jagermeister Spacelane Ghosts	Posted - 2008.06.28 01:21:00 - [120]

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