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laurazine First Caldari Regiment	Posted - 2008.06.28 02:49:00 - [121] It's not the learning skill training time that is the problem, it's the stupid advice given to new players that they have to train them all right away. You can train the skills you need as well as the Learning skills on a rotating basis, thus keeping you in new toys and gaining faster training time without outright sacrificing either one for the other.
Bl00dyAngel Caldari Brothers Of Republic Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:42:00 - [122] i like the idea to remove them. Its ugly for new players to spend time to learn learnings. But the new way, need to be balance well. As old player it does not hurts me to lose the time i spend in them. I got my bonus for them. And without them new players can consentrate on the funny things, like new ships and weapons. In fakt of this eve becomes a lote more nooby friendly. And we all profit from more eve player. Maybe ccp can put a explore the universe thing in the game. For example the newbie becomes the mission to fly to ruins in a system. Or the the mission to fly 10 jumps into .0 space (with a guide in the front of course). And from the expirience the car will get in this mission, the pilot will get a short boost on one of the attributes. For Example +2 to Willpower.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:54:00 - [123] But remember that learning skills take patience and eventually eve has to a lot to do with patience. Learning skills also scare away those "fps morons". Yes, we might get more active players...but their quality...? Learning skills don't just speed up learning, but you also learn while studying your current skills. Getting a new skill everyday would make you skill hungry, not talent hungry. I've done tons of research on items/tactics etc. while waiting for learning skills to finish.
Bl00dyAngel Brothers Of Republic Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:58:00 - [124] i dont think, that learnings change the quality of new players. and i never hear that they make some one skill hungry. and at last i forget to hit the support button :D
Futchmacht Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.28 10:45:00 - [125] This is a very VERY bad idea. First off EVE is about players all playing the game together. but at the same time no players are = and the same. the learning skills like all skills are a huge part of that system. #1. we all had to go through learning the learning skills as a noob. its part of being a noob. #2. You dont even have to learn the learning skills if you dont want to its a choice. Some people only learn there learning skills (the 1st set to level 4 and stop). Then they learn the second set to level 4 and stop). These people then PICK other skills they want and or need. and in the mean time lose out on skill points for all other skills in order to get what they want NOW. #3. As a person with all learning skills at level 5 BOTH sets. I sacrificed the ability to do alot of skills in the beginning of the game. but now im learning way faster then many others esp with implants. Thats becasue i made the choice!! to sacrifice then to gain now. Some of the friends that i started playing with all of us from day one started at the same time i now have well over them in skill points some of them as much as 5 million Sp's why because i decided no i will wait to fly that battleship or T2 ship a few more weeks. Now im making up for it and bypassing others of my chars age. because of the choice i made. To me thats an advantage i worked for buy planning ahead. EVE has never been about people being = its been about everyone being different. and one way i might be different from others is i wanted to learn ALL the learning skills to MAX while others did NOT. thats EVE .. its about choices and about being different!
XLR Eight Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.29 00:44:00 - [126]
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.06.29 03:51:00 - [127] Remove the skills, let new players start with higher attributes and make implants the only thing one can do to speed up skill training.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.06.29 13:21:00 - [128] Edited by: Morcam on 29/06/2008 13:22:52 I would love this, to be honest, and yes, I am 4/4 on nearly all of my learnings. To be honest, the older players do not comprehend how much of a show-stopper this is for the newer players. Trial accounts only last two weeks, which isn't enough time to even get all the learnings done. When the first thing you tell someone as they join the game is that they have to train skills so they can train skills, they instantly think that the rest of the game is going to be just like that. Mind-numbingly boring. I believe someone said that 18 million isk isn't much at all. You must've started eve a looooong time ago, cause that actually is a LOT of isk for a newbie. Taking off the weeks of training time when they first start would go a long way towards putting people in the EvE experience, and having fun in it, rather than feeling like they have to grind (And customer retention). I have something like 800k sp in learnings, and I would be more than happy to give it up to have more people play the game. Some of the vets have gotten so obsessed with SP, that they can't stand the thought of having 1.2 mil less. So, remove learnings, and pin on that permanent SP.
Deldrac Bat Country Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.29 13:32:00 - [129] Yes. Obv.
Nimani	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:41:00 - [130] Atleast start by removing the advance ones and to compensate give everybody +5 in all skill groups.

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.07.11 01:15:00 - [131] I don't see the problem here, you don't like them don't use them, same as with implants. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.11 01:41:00 - [132] There's no real reason to remove them. The two biggest arguments are that they are mandatory for new players and that they are a waste of time. The whole point of the learning skills originally was to give the player the choice between short-term and long-term skill prioritisation. Since this is a choice, they are obviously not mandatory for new players, as that would be a contradiction. They are only mandatory for minmaxers. If someone considers them a waste of time, obviously they should prioritize short term skilling and forget the learning skills. Keep in mind that the total time to train them all to a decent level will eventually be overshadowed by later skills. They are only daunting if you train them right off the bat. Some people are incapable of making or understanding this choice, which is where the idea that they are mandatory or that you are 'losing SP' if you don't train them comes from. Well, the lowest common denominator is not a good target when balancing the complexity of the game. There are two good reasons to keep them. First, it requires no work to leave them as is. Second, the fallacies generated by people who don't understand how these skills fit into the greater scheme of things are a constant source of lulz. - DesuSigs
Lt Graco	Posted - 2008.07.11 03:46:00 - [133] Thumb down for a bad idea. Losing learning skills = homogenization and dumbing down of EVE. Better idea would be to establish another server where a new player starts with 10 - 20 mil SP and trains at 4 or 5 times the rate on Tranquility. The FPS/instant gratification kids could go there and reduce our server load.
Tesseract d'Urberville Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:09:00 - [134] I agree that Learning skills are a needless time sink and add nothing to the game - they are a tedium now to reduce more tedium later. There is a broad consensus that all players should train them eventually. Whenever you do decide to train them (if you know you're in it for the long haul and train them up front, or if you get slowly sucked into the game and train them late), they're just time that's not spent training immediately applicable skills. If they are eliminated, all skills' training time should reflect pilots having all learning skills at level 5. There is already a wide variety of obvious benefits that longtime pilots have by their own choices: more money, better standings, better ships and equipment (including implants), and more skills. Eliminating Learning Skills is a great idea, but very difficult to implement fairly, to compensate older pilots who have foregone other skills to train the learning skills all the way up. So honestly, I don't expect that this is going to go anywhere... --------------------------------- Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains.
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:36:00 - [135] Ya learning skills are lame and make starting out a boring pain in the ass but I already trained them I don't give a damn about new players so I don't care to see the devs spend time fixing this problem that they could instead spend on something I care about for myself today. Personally I didn't even play for the first month on the advice of a friend. I just timecarded the ISK for the adv. learning skillbooks and a set of +4 implants and switched skills until the character was ready to have fun with.
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:39:00 - [136] Also you're crazy if you think the elimination of learning skills will let you ultimately get to fun skills faster. CCP has the learning skills in the game as a timesink. The point of them is to keep you away from the fun skills for longer, so that you'll subscribe to the game for longer waiting to get to the fun skills. The more time you spend subscribed, the more money you pay CCP. If they eliminate the learning skills, they still won't do anything to help you get to the fun skills any faster.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 22:11:00 - [137] Originally by: Morcam Edited by: Morcam on 29/06/2008 13:22:52 I would love this, to be honest, and yes, I am 4/4 on nearly all of my learnings. To be honest, the older players do not comprehend how much of a show-stopper this is for the newer players. Trial accounts only last two weeks, which isn't enough time to even get all the learnings done. When the first thing you tell someone as they join the game is that they have to train skills so they can train skills, they instantly think that the rest of the game is going to be just like that. Mind-numbingly boring. Yea the older players have no Idea. They were given a pass and just skipped them. Originally by: Morcam I believe someone said that 18 million isk isn't much at all. You must've started eve a looooong time ago, cause that actually is a LOT of isk for a newbie. Taking off the weeks of training time when they first start would go a long way towards putting people in the EvE experience, and having fun in it, rather than feeling like they have to grind (And customer retention). Yes the isk were coming out of our ears then, so CCP implemented the "Bling Patch" and so I am sorry for your suffering. Originally by: Morcam I have something like 800k sp in learnings, and I would be more than happy to give it up to have more people play the game. Some of the vets have gotten so obsessed with SP, that they can't stand the thought of having 1.2 mil less. So, remove learnings, and pin on that permanent SP. Whats a months worth of training any way. You wouldn't mind tossing 1.2 mil sp's away to support this cause would you? I mean it is all for the best isn't it? So thank you for your sage advice. Now get off my lawn before I whack you with my cane.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:49:00 - [138] no no no :P Very few have invested teh same into learning skills. This makes most pilots different becasue they will not train their skills as fast or slow as others. Couple this with implants adn initial attributes and we get the cool diversity. NO U [hr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting
Ivena Amethyst	Posted - 2008.07.17 12:00:00 - [139] if i remember correctly ccp already wants to remove learning skills 'cuz they feel like it's makeing it harder for new players to get in to the game and also, needless to say, training learning skills sux hard since they dint give u (the ability to use) any new cool stuff
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Ivena Amethyst if i remember correctly ccp already wants to remove learning skills 'cuz they feel like it's makeing it harder for new players to get in to the game and also, needless to say, training learning skills sux hard since they dint give u (the ability to use) any new cool stuff Link it.

Arthmandar Valikari Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:54:00 - [141] I disagree wholeheartedly with the complete removal of learning skills under the argument that 'it makes it harder for new players to complete effectively'. That issue is almost completely dealt with in the fact that skills are exponential in required points for levels (level 1 is superfast, level 2 fast, level 3 slow, level 4 really slow, level 5 takes a looong time) with fixed payoffs. On the other hand, I think learning skills are perhaps overpowered. Eve is about specialization, but specialization in learning grants you a significant specialization bonus in every skill category. I can see why that's bad. But Eve is about specialization. I would only support a proposal to remove general learning skills if new skills were invented to take their place, i.e. "Gunnery Training" which gives the same benefits as the learning skills but only to skills in the gunnery subtree, etc. One per category is probably about right. Just saying that removal of learning skills should be done to make it easier for new players to compete is the same as saying we should remove all gunnery support skills (rapid fire, sharpshooting, etc.) because veteran controlled guns hit harder and track better from farther away than n00b controlled guns, and that makes it harder for n00bs to compete. At some point, the game is fun because you can be better at something than someone else. If you want a truly level playing field for new players... the veterans aren't going to have any reason to stick around. tl;dr - learning skills are overpowered, but removing them is wrong. Specializing them might be much better. No support here for OP suggestion.
Infernal Travesty	Posted - 2008.07.19 12:25:00 - [142] Not supported here (even as a relative n00b, bout a month). People on the rookie help channel will advise that a new player trains all their learning skills first and, if people take this advise, then I agree that the game would be very boring for those on a trial, not being able to see themselves get better at anything other than learning. IMO skill training is not only about specialisation, its also about balance. True, specialise in the type of ship you want to fly and the types of weapons you want to use, but the Learning skills should be balanced among these. One of the biggest things that attracted me to EVE was the lack of grinding :) I'm perfectly happy to offset that hugely monotonous task by committing a little of my time to learn, and if theres a way I can learn faster: fantastic! And I don't even have to be here to do it! I also believe that it separates those who just wanna blow stuff up from those of us who are willing to put in the time it takes and become a little more committed. As already mentioned it creates diversity. And diversity is good. Anyway I ramble.... Not Supported
Banlish Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:32:00 - [143] NOT SUPPORTED But on that same train of thought why not go the other way? Part one Some of the reasons we don't have new toons starting with more then 800k sp's are the fact that accounts can have 'alts' which can be started at any time and give players an advantage. Many ppl see the skill paths to get 'cyno alts, trade alts, manufacturing alts, scout alts, research alts and so on' make accounts have 'mains' and secondary toons. Secondary toons start with the 800k we have now and nothing changes. Mains start with the learnings to 4/3 and the 800k. Only one account can have a 'main'. This should stop some of CCP's concerns with ppl starting new accounts just to get quick and dirty advantages. It would also allow new players to get into it right away. But still leave off that 4th level of advanced learning for them to decide if they want or not. Part two Instead of getting rid of learnings after this first part, why not expand them? Add another set of learnings into the mix where everyone would be able to reduce the training times a bit further. This would allow everyone to train a bit faster and in the story line sort of way the governments and corps would probably want to be able to produce deadlier pilots faster anyway. So we'd have basic learnings, advanced learnings and maybe, complicated learnings? Add to that Advanced learning skill and Genius Learning skill (upgraded versions of the learning skill). This would allow some newer players to quickly get into the skills needed for the better items. The vets already are in them, so they could maybe cross train or find other ways to enjoy the new skills. Part Three New players or newbies/n00bs are indeed stuck behind a wall and a hard spot in a way. They have to learn the game and try to 'catch-up' to the rest of us that have in some instances been around since beta. How is this possible? Why not introduce a New player corp implant set this set would only be available in the starter corp. The first set would come after the completion of maybe a multi-step story line mission series that could explain ALOT about EVE that is hard to make players learn currently. This would work like a halo set upon a new players learnings. So the set would give maybe +3 or +4 to each stat, but the entire set would give a 15% to 25% bonus to the entire set as well as the cumulative stats of the player. So a player with say 17 will, and the +3 in would have 20 willpower. The set would give 25% bonus making that a 25 BUT ONLY AS LONG AS THEY STAY IN THE STARTER CORP. It could get more complicated with learning, advanced and complicated learnings of course. But it would give players a quick way to catch up, not harm the 'vets', bring in new players YET still force them to learn patience and the game, thus 'FPS morons' as one player put it would be put off anyway. Part Four* This one would be more case by case basis. But maybe general category skill reducing skills. Like say "Electronics learn" each level would reduce all skill training times in the Electronics tab by .5% to 1%. This would let some people try to specialize further, or make up for a bad choice in their character creation. It is an investment skill to be sure, but might let some of the younger players catch up. End. I'm one of those weirdo's who MAXED out the learnings knowing they were going to take 3 years to pay off. EVE is a game of patience and planning. I'm not sure taking out learnings would keep EVE in the niche it fills. New MMO players go to WoW, medium/casual MMO players go to conan, freaky MMO player go to Hello Kitty Adventure island, and Experienced MMO players gravitate to EVE. Hope this helped, tried to take the stance of 'keeping it fair for the most ppl possible' compared to the suggestions I've seen so far. Atlas Head Diplomat CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries ~~Carebear~~ Pvper?!?!?
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:51:00 - [144] I have mixed feelings about this. In the end I do not support this at all. It is a 'CHOICE' to train those, not a 'REQUIREMENT' like everyone says they are.
Master ore	Posted - 2008.07.20 20:18:00 - [145] If you wish to do away with learning skills why not do away with attribute implants as well, after all they give a training time advantage to players who have the isk to buy them or the time to spare running missions for the LP,s to obtain them. The current learning skills do not really affect the length of time players take to get into cruisers from frigs ect as some make out, it depends upon how wisely a player trains his character. A new player can get to level 3 missions and running them successfully solo in about a week, and still train thier learning skills.
Josemite	Posted - 2008.07.20 22:26:00 - [146] Agree, I hated spending the few weeks to train up my learning skills as I wasn't really advancing at all. People mention the ability to specialize your character more, but 90% of players will just train to 4/4 or 5/4 across the board anyways (with the possible exception of charisma). I am in big support of a re-evaluation of learning skills, with my preferred solution being a removal of the skills with a SP reimbursement.
Xyzibit Caldari New-Roots	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:14:00 - [147] not supported since removing learnings is not an option for me... yes there is an issue with learning skills but thats not the solution! training the adv. learnings to level 5 for example takes ages and that only pays off if you want to play eve for several years. yes i am playing eve for a very long time now and when i entered the game everyone was laughing at me because i trained all my learning skills to level 5 (by that time there were no adv. learning skills). well training the learning skills up to level 4 is really not a big matter of time for a new player and after that its a matter of taste if you want to stay in eve for a long time of only for a few months. if you want to train them up to level 5 or not... you need check if you like the game and want to continue with playing it or not. i think the learnings are good as they are and i wont cry if ccp goes one step further and creats another batch of learning skills which are rank 5 ... its just another question of time if you want to train those up to level 5 then since you will need to play eve for ages then to make a profit out of that
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.23 12:14:00 - [148] The primary beneficiaries of "removing" (ie: free) learning skills would be older players who want alts. Whenever this topic pops up, it's the older players arguing for removal (cf: OP) and the newer players in the thread that are saying it's fine. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Marcus Gideon Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.07.23 12:34:00 - [149] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 23/07/2008 12:36:39 I completely agree that Learning Skills could go away. Some of you say they are an "option"... and that some players "may not choose to take them". And you'd be the same players who point and laugh when someone starts playing and says "Gee, I didn't train those yet. Should I?" Given the popularity of Evemon, and the near necessity of its usage... Any training plan that takes more than a few days will usually cause at least one Learning skill to be "suggested". And ANY Eve Players Guide you could find online will suggest the same thing. Learning 4/5, Basics 4, Advanced 4. So those "optional" skills are pretty much manditory, unless you want to spend months trying to get into a Cruiser. As it stands, I hear it takes about 22 years to get All Level V's. If someone didn't take the Learning tree... Right now, people make a new character... and then wonder what to do for the first month or so while they get their Learning up to par. So I'd agree, Implants could boost learning as they already do. But eliminate the Learning tree entirely. Either make the skills train at the fastest rate they could now... or leave them slow and let everyone suffer for it. "Awesome! I'm gonna crosstrain to another Frigate. Only have to wait 2 months before I can fly it!" --- Don't take my rantings personally. I may just be arguing the topic... unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
Molpadia Devaux Minmatar Excessive Intoxication	Posted - 2008.07.23 16:39:00 - [150] Oppose! Every time this topic comes up, I just laugh to myself. Eve is different from almost every game in the depths to which you can customize your character with the amount of skills available. More choice is good, less choice is bad. Has anyone put a gun to your head to make you train any skill? Some call learning skills a time sink, it is indeed the opposite allowing you to get far greater reward in return. This AM I created an alt, as close as I could remember to mirror my main. ( pretty close also there was a difference in only 2 starting skill levels). Both toons tuned to favor an industrial/research line of progression. I then loaded 2 Evemon plans for this toon, to train to fly ( fly only ) A mimatar Titan (Ragnorok). With no learning skills total training is 44 skills ( 12 unique) Total training time 581 d, 9h, 31m, 28 sec. Cost 5,964,570,000 isk. Wtih suggested learning skills 80 skills 22 unique 263 d, 6h, 1m, 12s cost 5,989,720,000. The plan calls for lvl5 in Learning, Spatial Awareness and Iron Will, Lvl 4 in Instant recall, Empathy, Focus,and Clarity lvl 3 in Eidetic Memory and logic and lvl2 in presence. If I start today, 23 July, I will finish August 21. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to see the advantage here. 318 days off training time, is in no way a time sink, It means you have to stop and think. Am I so stubborn that I hate learning skills so much, that I will forego almost a year of training so I can avoid that waste of my time? If you don't want to train learning, just don't do it. Claiming it to be a time sink is false. Giving everybody Atributes in exchange only dumbs down the game. Remember more choice is good. Right now someone that created a character at the same time as I did, and concentrated on combat related skills instead of the learning as I have, would easily kick my butt, In a couple months we will be even, and in 6 months, I gurantee, the butt kicking will be reversed.



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