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JDTerry84	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:29:00 - [1] After playing eve for about a year now, i have to recommend that learning skills be completely done away with. As a new player wanting to get started in the game, i hated the idea of having to learn how to learn. It seemed very un-necessary. im sure older players can be compensated in some way, and there can be a solution worked out by someone much smarter than me in terms of figuring out exactly what to do. My point is: spending a month or more learning how to learn, in a complex game like this is just crazy, and on more than one occasion, i thought about quitting the game entirely.
aUTOKILL Invicta.	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:43:00 - [2] Learning skills are one of the things that makes eve different from other games. Eve needs them to calculate how much SP/hr you will get. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
xena zena Catalyst Corporation Dominatus Phasmatis	Posted - 2008.05.24 04:18:00 - [3] I agree, your not learning to learn, your learning to learn more efficiently. You can learn in your dumb initial state, or you can get smarter and learn faster. :P
Sunwillow Auryn	Posted - 2008.05.24 07:44:00 - [4] It's a way to give a boost to the long-termers. The time I have spent training up the learning skills (to level 5 tier 1 and level 4 tier 2) has more than been made up in the time it has taken off my skill training. Yes it's a pain, but has significant benefit in the long term. /not signed
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.05.24 13:54:00 - [5] Originally by: JDTerry84 After playing eve for about a year now, i have to recommend that learning skills be completely done away with. As a new player wanting to get started in the game, i hated the idea of having to learn how to learn. It seemed very un-necessary. so maybe we should get rid of all skilling requirements as I hate having to wait to use a new shiny ;-0 Originally by: JDTerry84 My point is: spending a month or more learning how to learn, in a complex game like this is just crazy, and on more than one occasion, i thought about quitting the game entirely. It is about separating pilots out. If everyone could learn the same skills at the same speed then you'd be able to draw a reasonably direct line between how long you had been a pilot and what your skills probably are, making pvp and everything else less interesting. If everyone's car had the same acceleration and top speed driving would be more boring and only one company would bother making cars! As a new podpilot you get to choose whether to get in a ship and start shooting people straight away (albeit not so powerfully) or to train those skills faster in the long term but fly a weaker ship initially. Personally, when the new character start-up SPs were massively boosted I felt it a trifle unfair to those of us who had created our characters pre-boost, but I lived with it (though 'killed off' one of my alts in order to re-create her with better skills). How you fly, what you fly, what you do in EVE is all down to choices. How fast you learn those skills is just as much a choice ... IZ My principles
Illaria M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:39:00 - [6] I would happily forfeit my 1.4m SP in Learnings, if I newbies would get a better gaming experience from it. The problem with learnings is that to employ them efficiently you should learn them as soon as possible, i.e. at the beginning of your piloting career. Even when you discount adavanced learnings and only stick to the basic learning skills in the beginning, it will take away several days of training right off the bat at the very start of your EvE experience. A few days may seem not very relevant to us vets who happily train a month for Battleship V, but they may seem excruciating to a newbie who starts new. They don't really give you a feel of progression, and add the initial impression that EvE is slow and boring.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:52:00 - [7] Not supported. I anything, we will need a new tier of learning skills at some point, and +7 learning implants are already in the database waiting for CCP to deem them necessary for release. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.24 23:48:00 - [8] I've had this idea that learning skills are in a separate system in which they learn over time while other skills learn.
BlondieBC 7th Tribal Legion	Posted - 2008.05.25 03:06:00 - [9] I like learning skills the way the are.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 05:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Illaria I would happily forfeit my 1.4m SP in Learnings, if I newbies would get a better gaming experience from it. The problem with learnings is that to employ them efficiently you should learn them as soon as possible, i.e. at the beginning of your piloting career. Even when you discount adavanced learnings and only stick to the basic learning skills in the beginning, it will take away several days of training right off the bat at the very start of your EvE experience. A few days may seem not very relevant to us vets who happily train a month for Battleship V, but they may seem excruciating to a newbie who starts new. They don't really give you a feel of progression, and add the initial impression that EvE is slow and boring. You'd be willing to give up your 1.4 million, but would the guy who just burned a month and a half getting his advanceds to 5? I bet he'd be fuming, and with good reason. I bought a roommate of mine to Eve a few months back, and I think his experience is typical enough. He's an Amarr missioner, and weaved his learning skills in with his mission skills. He's a WoWer as well(still haven't gotten him to kick that bad habit), meaning he's only a casual player, meaning that he skills into the next tier of mission ship faster than he accumulates the cash and standings for it. As such, he's had plenty of time to train learning skills up, and he's gotten them to 4/4 with a couple 5's. He's probably a week or two behind where he'd be if he were trained like an alt, but he didn't sacrifice his ability to play, and he didn't sacrifice all that much time. Sure, the guy who starts out planning to pirate really hates the learning curve, but for most players, it's a pretty acceptable part of the game. 18 million and a few weeks is not an insurmountable speed bump, especially when it's optional and can be delayed. I'm a perfectionist with my skills, but most people aren't. ------------------ Fix the forums!

Slickdrac JET FORCE Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:02:00 - [11] I'm for getting rid of them because it does drive some newbies away because they are not improving on anything except the ability to improve themselves, and so it's equivalent to not leveling up at all. I'm against getting rid of it because it keeps newbies away, and I am of the opinion that we are at way too many people in this game for the amount of power it has and the amount of space we have. Also, it adds a layer of buffer for new players getting to the level of older players, and with the swarms of low SP's able to easily dispatch higher SP's thru their sheer numbers, older players need all the help they can get mostly against tho I suck at forums
TSucka Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.25 09:39:00 - [12] This is just THE BEST idea suggested, the solution is simple, remove learning skills, and let players put their SP they had in Learning somewhere else where they want to put it. Advantages: New players gets to experience eve A bit less ISK spent on skills (fatal to new players) Overall better gaming experience for new players Disadvantages: Players who have maxed their learning skills will lose their advantage to whom hadn't (I have mine maxed, it doesn't bother me) Conclusion: Let EvE be a game where it doesn't depend on level or time in the game, and it should most of all depend on skill, fleet commanding and all this. Players in WoW often say "It doesn't depend that much on level" but in theory you will never see a level 40 character beat up a level 70 character (unless he is sleeping). This is the beauty of EvE, which in my opinion should be kept. Why become a part of the mainstream MMOs when EvE is already unique.
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:06:00 - [13] I'd love to see learning skills balanced out by removing them entirely, and giving all players the effects of having each and every learning skill at level 5. This could either be done by removing the skills and their bonuses, and replacing them with a global stat boost or by removing the skills and their bonuses, and scaling skillpoint accumulation globally to match it (And make it as though everyone effectively had each learning skill at level 10 invisibly). Why this is good for both new players and old players: All players have the benefit of an increased global skillpoint gain, which speeds up the process of getting things in general. New players benefit the most from this because it will greatly help with accelerating them into a capable position of matching players who have been around for many months or years longer than they have. And, of course, old players benefit as well, because by simply improving skillpoint gain globally, you don't actually invalidate the time and resources that those players spent in the learning skills. They have the advantage of having had the faster skillpoint accumulation rate for however long they've had the learning skills. I agree that Learning skills were a mistake to put in the game, and it needs to be corrected. And yes, I realize that there are a handful of players who will be ***ed off that their very recent month of skill training was "For nothing", but the overall benefit to the game SORELY outweighs that. And if nothing else, CCP could announce that the change would be coming something like a month ahead of time. This gives players who were going to train them notice (So that they don't start), and gives the players who just trained them a chance to make use of the invested skillpoints prior to the change, even if only a small amount. "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."*
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:55:00 - [14] Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. www.eve-players.com
TSucka Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.25 12:57:00 - [15] Originally by: ViolenTUK Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. Which is pretty much a lie, would you like to join a game and be told you will have to travel in a frigate and pay for it the first six months of it? I've got a load of friends who left eve because of that. Learning skills is a waste of playing time, and of ISK. Besides how will a new players afford this if they can only fly around in a Ibis or another noobship? "New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them." Yes of course I mean, who wouldn't want to wait six months before they can play the actual game?, it's just nice . "Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them." Everyone knows how much a pain it was to train all these damn skills , I didn't feel "encouraged" by training them thinking "Man I can wait to log on EvE to swap to another learning skill, it's just so fun to learn" The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. Regards TSucka
Finraer M.A.D.	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:24:00 - [16] Learning skills as they currently stand are a great way for those new players to rebalance their stats - I think that their removal would lead to a lot of new players being stuck regretting having rolled a character that doesn't have stats that suit the way they want to play. As such, I think their removal would cause a lot more harm than good. However, I think that learning skills are biased in their design, since the basic skills rely on mem and int and the advanced skills rely on various other stats. I'd vote against their removal (if I could grin). However, I would vote for the removal of any stat-related bias in their training times. If you make it so that if you want to train Willpower to boost your focus in skill training, then you can, or that you can train Charisma because you left that stat very low on creation - but do it so that you don't need to push your Int and Mem in advance to optimise that training time - then I think that would be a worthy change. It would remove the need to "learn how to learn learning skills" (to misquote the OP), changing the skills into an option to focus or refocus learning and not a skill tree in their own right. Fin
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:51:00 - [17] You know what, with the idea brought up about getting to move that sp somewhere else, I now fully support this idea. I would LOVE 5 million sp to just get moved into something useful. because lets face it, it's not an advantage to older players to train faster off these learning skills. That is something you gain by just being older. However how to deal with remaining stuff? for instance character creation? One idea might be to keep basic learning skills and get rid of advanced learning skills. Then add 5 points to everyones base stats. I think this would be ok, only having to go up 5. that OR take out advanced learning skills, reduce everyones stats by 5, and then intro duce up to plus 10 implants. Also convert all +2 implants into +4 +3's into +6's +4's into +8's +5's into +10 this way a plus 10 will be the price that a plus 5 was. and then intro duce the new implants inbetween... OR! one last silly idea, just reduce the sp needed for advanced learning skills. It makes 0 sense but make them rank 1?
SugarFr33 RAW MACABRE	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:06:00 - [18] In a game where there is a skill for everything removing the learning skills just sounds ridiculous. It just causes too many problems for those who have already done them all. RAW MACABRE Recruitment Thread
Lu'Marat	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:07:00 - [19] Edited by: Lu''Marat on 25/05/2008 15:09:21 Sorry, but I don't see the issue. By now I have my advanced learning skills at 3 or 4, and very minimal planning ahead made sure I didn't waste any time on training them but got my actual training done faster. Taking away the learning skills and making all other skills just train as if your learning skills were maxed would only reduce the diversity and focus in careers, and the same goes for switching to a system based entirely on implants. May I also point out what a nightmare it would be to figure out how many SP each and every of the thousands of characters in EVE would have if learning skills had not been part of the formula?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:15:00 - [20] Originally by: TSucka Originally by: ViolenTUK Learning skills are a very well balanced part of the game and need to stay. I feel that on the whole they actively promote new players since the value of learning skills can be learnt at an early stage. Learning skills help to teach that planning your career and investing time to train for what you need to do. Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them. New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them. I fell if we lost learning skills we would lose part of eve that makes eve what it is. Which is pretty much a lie, would you like to join a game and be told you will have to travel in a frigate and pay for it the first six months of it? I've got a load of friends who left eve because of that. Learning skills is a waste of playing time, and of ISK. Besides how will a new players afford this if they can only fly around in a Ibis or another noobship? "New players arenÆt put off by learning skill and are in fact encouraged by them." Yes of course I mean, who wouldn't want to wait six months before they can play the actual game?, it's just nice . "Many new players have found how helpful they can be and are very grateful for taking the relatively small amount of time to train them." Everyone knows how much a pain it was to train all these damn skills , I didn't feel "encouraged" by training them thinking "Man I can wait to log on EvE to swap to another learning skill, it's just so fun to learn" The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. Regards TSucka Basic learning skills to 4 is cheap and only takes a few days(especially given that a modern character only needs to train 3 of them). And the proper progression of finances is to buy a cruiser, then use cruiser proceeds to buy things like advanced learning books. You can theoretically mine them out in a Bantam, but that's just not fun. And even if you were to train them all to 5 with no implants, it wouldn't take you 6 months - that's just hyperbole. ------------------ Fix the forums!

Marlon Hanharr United Sentients	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:18:00 - [21] I would absolutely love to have the learning skills removed if it meant I got my wasted sp reimbursed. Even if I didn't though I still think it would make great sense to get rid of this waste of time. All they really do is make sure your character is useless and not able to have much fun for the first 2-3 weeks or more.
Quincy TawHarr Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.	Posted - 2008.05.26 14:41:00 - [22] Edited by: Quincy TawHarr on 26/05/2008 14:48:25 I agree, learning skills should be removed from the game. Learning skills are for all intents and purposes mandatory. Let's assume you have the skills at basic 4 and advanced 4, giving an 8 point boost to every stat. If you choose not to learn them you effectively lose 12 SP per minute. Which is 720 per hour, 17280 a day; and 6.3 million a year... There is nothing optional about that kind of payoff. New Players are explicitly told that they must train these skills as soon as possible. However the buy in, while nothing at all to an established player is absolutely maddening to a new player. Nothing is worse than training skills that add nothing to your direct experience. Learning skills are the only skills that do nothing to improve you direct playing experience. The primary reason that I stuck with this game on the third try was simply because I chose to spread these skills over three months. My first try was summer 04. It's now 08, that about 1.5 years of subscription that could have been (I've been here for 2 solid years now with no real plans of moving on). So that's about $215 that CCP could have had if they hadn't scared me away... The question is how many more are they willing to push away (and have pushed away) with a silly scheme like this. There are many things about EVE that make this special, the full on pvp, the full economy and sandbox atmosphere. However, when I am paying to play in the sandbox... I want to play in the sandbox from the get go. Not stand outside and be told how to count to 10. That's just me though... EDIT: I'm not even sure the Advanced skills were in back then, but they were still a rather silly idea then IMO. Scrapheap fun on Bombs: Takahashi: Atm you're essentially "firing the equivalent of a Ferox" Dixon: Letting people fire actual Ferox's would be nice... it'd make them almost useful.
Nariana Verex Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.26 16:39:00 - [23] Not signed simply for the fact that Learning Skills are as useful as the time you put into them. By all means, if you feel that the SP put into them is better used elsewhere, then do not put much into them. My friend and I started playing EVE at about the same time, and while he chose to pump his learning skills very high at first to be more efficient in the long run - I chose to instead put a little bit into learning at first, and then learn skills immediately that would turn a profit in ISK instead. Here it is two years later, and while he does have more SP than my character does he is just now catching up. And since then, I have put more effort into a learning skill now and then. Saying having the Learning skills in the game makes it so newbies need to spend six months pumping them is like saying you need to have Small Energy Turret V just to use a basic T1 dual pulse. Sure, it would be NICE to have that skill at max, but you can be useful without them. Just don't neglect them completely. Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space.
Maidel Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.26 17:27:00 - [24] Edited by: Maidel on 26/05/2008 17:30:22 I aggree that the advanced learning skills were a massive screw up. The basic ones are a good idea. They are cheap, easy to train quickly to a point and can all be at level 4 in less than a week. Easy to distribute them inbetween other skills. My suggestion would be to remove the advanced learning skill from the game entirely. Give everyone a +5 boost across the board to each attribute. Ok, so what happens to everyone else who has already trained the skills. Well they dont lose the skill points, but they dont get a bunch to spend all in one go - what should happen is they end up in a holding space and you train at double speed until you have spent all the skill points. Within a few months everyone will have spent their spare points and it will be as if they never existed.
Kame Malice Mitsukashi Holdings Limited	Posted - 2008.05.26 18:15:00 - [25] They are already balanced, rremoving them would be a universal F***YOU to all the players who actualy care about the time and effort put into them. /unsigned
Max Nero Xeno Tech Corp United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:05:00 - [26] Not Signed, Learning Skills are an investment, not a requirement. Just like a faction ship, officer gear or those snake implants. These things are not mandatory. Instead of ISK, learning costs you time. Saying that learning skills need to be removed is like saying that faction mods should be seeded at t1 prices. Why? Because it just takes too damn long to learn skills for t2. All them old players have way too much ISK so they can afford faction unlike newbies, so I say slash prices to level the field. Get my logic?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:16:00 - [27] Not supported. Reasons : Linkage. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Bloodyranger Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.05.26 21:28:00 - [28] Hmm learning skills are just filling skills in my opinion. They cost isk and a lot of gametime to train, if you haven't fully trained them they are a pain. /signed bigtime Regards BloodyRanger --------- When the night is closing in, Watch for Volition Cult, they will win. Battling for power, battling for space. In combat, in the belts, in your face.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.26 22:23:00 - [29] The only reason older players want to keep them in the game is for hazing. The attitude is "we all had to do it, so so should you." The learning skills do not add anything to the game. They don't make it more fun. All they do is discourage people from staying with EVE (just as the concept of "grind to level 70, then you can play" drives people away from WoW). Compensate the players who've trained them, maybe, and get rid of them entirely. For that matter, *attributes* should also be eliminated. We are meant to learn how to play EvE by doing so, by learning from one another, etc. Not having good documentation is a design decision made by CCP in order to make the game more social. Choosing attributes, however, is one thing you have to do before entering the game and meeting other players. Attributes add nothing to the game, except giving players reasons not to play the races and bloodlines they'd otherwise choose. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Cautet Precision Engineering Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.27 01:06:00 - [30]

ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.05.27 02:32:00 - [31] Edited by: ViolenTUK on 27/05/2008 02:38:16 Originally by: TSucka Which is pretty much a lie, would you like to join a game and be told you will have to travel in a frigate and pay for it the first six months of it? This isnÆt a lie and is as close to the truth of learning skills as you will find. YouÆre example has no relevance to a new player since they can train all the learning skills and be in a cruiser, assault ship, battle cruiser, battleship and yes even a carrier in the first 6 months if they choose to. Particularly if they train the learning skills. Any new player can train relevant learning skills and be equipped in a ship greater than a frigate in just a few weeks. Originally by: TSucka I've got a load of friends who left eve because of that. Learning skills is a waste of playing time, and of ISK. Besides how will a new players afford this if they can only fly around in a Ibis or another noobship? Learning skills are an ôinvestment in timeö not a ôwaste of timeö. As already discussed a new player doesnÆt need to fly in a ônoobshipö for very long and indeed a competent corporation that teaches the value of learning skills will also teach how useful a lowly frigate can be. I ran missions and mined in my early days to finance learning skills all of which can be accomplished in a frigate. Originally by: TSucka Yes of course I mean, who wouldn't want to wait six months before they can play the actual game?, it's just nice . You donÆt have to wait for 6 months. ThatÆs the point if you train learning skills. You can "play the game" the instant you log in. Originally by: TSucka Everyone knows how much a pain it was to train all these damn skills , I didn't feel "encouraged" by training them thinking "Man I can wait to log on EvE to swap to another learning skill, it's just so fun to learn" The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. Changing a learning skill is no different than changing any other skill. Originally by: TSucka The part learning shouldn't be made into a game, if you want to learn something, buy a book. This quote is just wrong. Learning skills, any skills is one of the most important aspects of your time advancement in eve. If you really donÆt like changing skills then you are playing the wrong game. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The only reason older players want to keep them in the game is for hazing. The attitude is "we all had to do it, so so should you." The learning skills do not add anything to the game. They don't make it more fun. All they do is discourage people from staying with EVE (just as the concept of "grind to level 70, then you can play" drives people away from WoW). Compensate the players who've trained them, maybe, and get rid of them entirely. Sheer nonsense. If a change that kept the scope of the game was introduced i would be just as happy to see it as the any of the newer players. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker All they do is discourage people from staying with EVE No. What learning skills do is encourage people to stay with eve. Investing time in training skills is at the very heart of eve and any removal of a feature that actively encourages forward planning is a very bad move. www.eve-players.com
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.27 02:34:00 - [32] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker The only reason older players want to keep them in the game is for hazing. The attitude is "we all had to do it, so so should you." The learning skills do not add anything to the game. They don't make it more fun. All they do is discourage people from staying with EVE (just as the concept of "grind to level 70, then you can play" drives people away from WoW). Compensate the players who've trained them, maybe, and get rid of them entirely. Learning skills are just as much of a time-sink as anything else, and they DO have immediately visible benefits : a faster learning speed. They're just like any other skill. NOTHING stops you from NOT training them at all, or training them all to L5. How much of them you train is your choice. And yes, there are reasons for NOT training them all to L5 even if you plan to play 10 years. It's called "prioritizing". Quote: For that matter, *attributes* should also be eliminated. We are meant to learn how to play EvE by doing so, by learning from one another, etc. Not having good documentation is a design decision made by CCP in order to make the game more social. Choosing attributes, however, is one thing you have to do before entering the game and meeting other players. Attributes add nothing to the game, except giving players reasons not to play the races and bloodlines they'd otherwise choose. Right, let's annihilate all differences between the pilots. Let's eliminate attribute implants, since, hey, they're completely and utterly useless now too. Let's just have everybody train everything at the same SP/hour rate. Heck, you know what, let's convert all races and bloodlines and everything to a single choice : "HUMAN". And while we're at it, to hell with it, let's just also eliminate all skills altogether. Afterall, they're all just a boring timesink. Let everybody fly everything at EXACTLY the same performance (given identical equipment) ! Hmmm... while you're at it, why even have different weapons, different ship types and so on ? Let's just have a generic frigate with generic weapons, same for cruiser, battlecruiser and so on ! Oh, why stop there ? Remove ISK from the game too ! Everything should be free based on some "victory points" scored for killing enemies ! And there you go : counterstrike in space. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Kersh Marelor Federal European Industry Science and Research	Posted - 2008.05.27 02:50:00 - [33] /not signed If anything needs to be changed in the learning skill category it would probably be the addition of more of these - more advanced of a higher rank etc. This is not WoW, what makes EVE exceptional is that the characters really need to plan their development and progression. Learning skills are very core of this allowing to trade some immediate benifit for better results over longer period of time. Getting those skills to fairly decent level (4 in advanced) is not taking terribly long.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.27 05:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T Quote: For that matter, *attributes* should also be eliminated. Right, let's annihilate all differences between the pilots. Let's eliminate attribute implants, since, hey, they're completely and utterly useless now too. Well, implants are investments made in-game, they're a different kind of beast than starting attributes and learning skills. While learning skills are a design mistake that doesn't add anything to the game, implants can be bought and sold, must be selected carefully, add to the cost-benefit calculations of traveling in 0.0, and so on. They are a feature that players can experiment with at the beginning and learn over time how to manage more effectively. Attributes are different. People are forced to choose them before knowing what they're good for, and give very little benefit. All they really do is force players to biomass their first characters because, for example, cool-looking Ray-ban Brutor have less optimal skills compared to butt-ugly Min-maxer Achura. If a part of the game cannot be learned about or adapted to, it shouldn't have an effect that harmfully impacts a player's experience. Please, tell me how your opinion about learning skills is any different from "I had to do it, so so should everybody else." The idea behind hazing is that, because you were here first, you think that EVE is yours and that new players have to prove their devotion before you'll consider them worthy of playing your game. That's what hazing is about. And it doesn't belong in EVE because, guess what, EVE is CCP's. ---------------- [insert signature here]
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:13:00 - [35] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker While learning skills are a design mistake that doesn't add anything to the game Learning skills are a design success that add a great deal to the game as has been already covered in this thread. Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Please, tell me how your opinion about learning skills is any different from "I had to do it, so so should everybody else." The idea behind hazing is that, because you were here first, you think that EVE is yours and that new players have to prove their devotion before you'll consider them worthy of playing your game. He did explain to you as have many other forum members. You don't seem to have paid attention. www.eve-players.com
WildcardTrek Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.05.27 20:57:00 - [36] We lose allot of newer players because training learning skills with no implants according to Evemon will take your average player 100 + days to finish them with no implants, I have seen many players leave eve because of it. My Corp has lost over a dozen recruits over the years that stopped playing Eve and went back to whatever because of learning skills, the basically didnt want to do nothing for months but learn to learn. And for a new player they want to run missions, make ISK, and PVP, it sucks to have to wait a month or so so that you can actually train some skills to be able to do that. Even mixing training other skills with learning skills it prolongs the learning curve somewhat and can be very frustrating to newer players. Most understand the importance of having them done, but for the casual gamer he will not, and thus suffer from it. We require each member in our Corp to have rank 1 to 5 and rank 3 to 4. This is a Corp wide mandatory requirement, and it does cost us newer players, and sometimes older players who just dont want to get it. I think that if you wanted to "FIX" Learning skills you could give each new player all rank 1's automatically trained to level 4 and all of the rank 3's automatically trained to level 1 this would at least help them really get started out, and teach them responsibility to train them to acceptable levels. I dont want to see them done away with, if you do away with them we will eventually be doing this to another skill set like spaceship command or something. Just my 2 ISK worth .
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Akita T Quote: For that matter, *attributes* should also be eliminated. Please, tell me how your opinion about learning skills is any different from "I had to do it, so so should everybody else." The idea behind hazing is that, because you were here first, you think that EVE is yours and that new players have to prove their devotion before you'll consider them worthy of playing your game. That's what hazing is about. And it doesn't belong in EVE because, guess what, EVE is CCP's. So let me ask you this. If i spend 3.5 years training my char. All my leaning skills are level 5, how are you to compensate me for the time and MONEY I spent developing that character so I can enjoy a much fasster training schedule now since I am up against rank 6 and 8 skills? If you want to propose a solution or change you have to at least propose something that is somewhat balanced. Both for the old and the new player. And Hazing!?! That is no way even close to be hazing. No one forces you to train anything. Show me where it says you HAVE to train those skills. And I am sorry to say this but you are not going to be long for Eve. You are not willing to invest into it. You would be better off playing your play station of Xbox. That way you can get your instant fix and feed back without wanting to invest in a game.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.27 22:44:00 - [38] Originally by: WildcardTrek We lose allot of newer players because training learning skills with no implants according to Evemon will take your average player 100 + days to finish them with no implants, I have seen many players leave eve because of it. My Corp has lost over a dozen recruits over the years that stopped playing Eve and went back to whatever because of learning skills, the basically didnt want to do nothing for months but learn to learn. And for a new player they want to run missions, make ISK, and PVP, it sucks to have to wait a month or so so that you can actually train some skills to be able to do that. Even mixing training other skills with learning skills it prolongs the learning curve somewhat and can be very frustrating to newer players. Most understand the importance of having them done, but for the casual gamer he will not, and thus suffer from it. We require each member in our Corp to have rank 1 to 5 and rank 3 to 4. This is a Corp wide mandatory requirement, and it does cost us newer players, and sometimes older players who just dont want to get it. I think that if you wanted to "FIX" Learning skills you could give each new player all rank 1's automatically trained to level 4 and all of the rank 3's automatically trained to level 1 this would at least help them really get started out, and teach them responsibility to train them to acceptable levels. I dont want to see them done away with, if you do away with them we will eventually be doing this to another skill set like spaceship command or something. It's not 100 days unless you have a low int/mem character or want the full 5376000 SP in the learning tree. I've got an Achura alt, and I built a carrier plan, just for the sake of curiousity. The learning skills needed for that first 382 days of training(Int/Mem/Per 5/4, Wil 4/4, Learning 5) take 41 days without implants. Any new character who spends 100 days on learning skills is a fool - you spend maybe 30 of your first 100, and spend the other 70 getting into a competently skilled battlecruiser. If your newbies are quitting over 100 days of learning skills, it's nobody's fault but yours for training them badly. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Kirex Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.05.27 23:43:00 - [39] I support it only if those who already trained them are compensated.
Professor Leech Southern Light Entertainment Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:36:00 - [40] The learning skills were the worst idea ever. You spent a month learning learning skills instead of skills necessary to play the game. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places

Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 00:40:00 - [41] Originally by: Professor Leech The learning skills were the worst idea ever. You spent a month learning learning skills instead of skills necessary to play the game. So who is forcing you to do that?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.28 01:44:00 - [42] Originally by: WildcardTrek We require each member in our Corp to have rank 1 to 5 and rank 3 to 4. This is a Corp wide mandatory requirement, and it does cost us newer players, and sometimes older players who just dont want to get it. This policy is about the same degree of ignorance as "must have xxx mil SP to join us". Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Well, implants are investments made in-game, they're a different kind of beast than starting attributes and learning skills. You said "eliminate attributes". That automatically means those implants are irrelevant, since, hey, there are no attributes to boost. Oh, you mean, what you REALLY wanted to say was "give everybody a flat 20 in all attributes", was THAT it ? Quote: Attributes are different. People are forced to choose them before knowing what they're good for, and give very little benefit. All they really do is force players to biomass their first characters because, for example, cool-looking Ray-ban Brutor have less optimal skills compared to butt-ugly Min-maxer Achura. And THAT is EXACTLY the reason why the LEARNING skills are just fine and dandy. Those that only learn a minority of them are highly influenced in training speed by their chosen base attributes... those that decide to push some of them up high (or all of them) will notice those initial choices begining to fade away. Quote: If a part of the game cannot be learned about or adapted to, it shouldn't have an effect that harmfully impacts a player's experience. The WORST possible thing that can happen is to train skills slower. THAT'S IT. You still have access to everything everybody else has, just a bit later if you made some "horrible mistakes". Quote: Please, tell me how your opinion about learning skills is any different from "I had to do it, so so should everybody else." The idea behind hazing is that, because you were here first, you think that EVE is yours and that new players have to prove their devotion before you'll consider them worthy of playing your game. That's what hazing is about. And it doesn't belong in EVE because, guess what, EVE is CCP's. Because training learning skills to basic 4, advanced 3 and cybernetics to 1 to plug in +3s is barely one week's worth of skill training, and that already gives you the lion's share of benefits. That's the only "mandatory" thing if you plan to play beyond the first paid month. L4 advanceds only for those that plan to stick around a couple of months longer, and by then they SHOULD either gotten the hang of it or quit. L5s in any learning are no longer mandatory (L5 basics USED to be mandatory for advanceds, not anymore), and the starter skill package people get nowadays has more total SP in it than you "NEED" to train in the learnings ASAP (more than double, actually). Quote: While learning skills are a design mistake that doesn't add anything to the game Says WHO ? You're mis-paraphrasing some devs that said BEFORE the "New User Experience" that they WISHED they wouldn't have added the ADVANCED learning skills. The "problem" was SOLVED in the N.U.E. by giving people a starter skill pakage including 6 extra levels of learning, a multitude of skills worth more SP than "all learnings to L4" and a reduction of advanced learning skill prerequisites from L5 basic to L4 basic. NO DEV WHATSOEVER said ANYTHING like that AFTER the change to learning skills and starter skillpackages. At least get your freaking facts straight before you spout this nonsense. _____ And to all people that say anything beyond L4s in learning skills is mandatory, or even force people to train them above that level... YOU, and only you are the ones to blame for the loss of newbies to "grueling, useless learnings". I loathe your kind. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:11:00 - [43] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 28/05/2008 03:11:51 ... ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:12:00 - [44] Edited by: Joe Starbreaker on 28/05/2008 03:15:22 ... poasting error... ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Well, implants are investments made in-game, they're a different kind of beast than starting attributes and learning skills. You said "eliminate attributes". That automatically means those implants are irrelevant, since, hey, there are no attributes to boost. Oh, you mean, what you REALLY wanted to say was "give everybody a flat 20 in all attributes", was THAT it ? Yes to this. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:13:00 - [46] Originally by: Akita T Quote: Attributes are different. People are forced to choose them before knowing what they're good for, and give very little benefit. All they really do is force players to biomass their first characters because, for example, cool-looking Ray-ban Brutor have less optimal skills compared to butt-ugly Min-maxer Achura. And THAT is EXACTLY the reason why the LEARNING skills are just fine and dandy. No, that makes no sense. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 03:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Akita T You're mis-paraphrasing some devs that said BEFORE the "New User Experience" that they WISHED they wouldn't have added the ADVANCED learning skills. The "problem" was SOLVED in the N.U.E. by giving people a starter skill pakage including 6 extra levels of learning, a multitude of skills worth more SP than "all learnings to L4" and a reduction of advanced learning skill prerequisites from L5 basic to L4 basic. NO DEV WHATSOEVER said ANYTHING like that AFTER the change to learning skills and starter skillpackages. At least get your freaking facts straight before you spout this nonsense. _____ And to all people that say anything beyond L4s in learning skills is mandatory, or even force people to train them above that level... YOU, and only you are the ones to blame for the loss of newbies to "grueling, useless learnings". I loathe your kind. Here you're taking a long walk off the short pier of sanity. I have no idea what you're talking about, haven't quoted any dev at all. Looking in your blob of text for the answer to "what do learning skills add to the game?" I see no answer. Wait, how am I to blame for newbies leaving the game again? ---------------- [insert signature here]
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.28 04:49:00 - [48] Ah, so you were not even aware of the false premise on which the line you're reciting (i.e. "learning skills were a mistake") is based on ? It just keeps getting better and better. You tell me what I said makes no sense ? Ok, I can understand you being unable to comprehend the concept of prioritization and other complex logical constructs, but I didn't realize you can't even put one and one together, and forget the train of thought from paragraph to paragraph. Well, then, the guided hand-holding tour it is then, for you, I guess... Narrator voice: First, you were blaming the learning skills for "adding nothing to the game". Aside from the fact that they provide a pretty damn clear advantage in the long run at the expense of delaying needed skills early on - which is a pretty damn good starter idea in how we handle things in EVE (learning that there's no single "best choice", and that you usually have to sacrifice something in order to gain something else later) - let's just assume for a second that they actually don't add anything to the game, and are mere time sinks, nothing else. Still, we DO have loads of skills other than learnings that are clearly and purposefully destined to BE time-sinks for later skills... hence, time-sink skills in this game are not only tolerated, but actually desirable (by CCP). So, if we established so far that the learning skills have a clear purpose, and that time sinks are NOT a bad thing at all anyway, with a shrug and a couple of second of rolling eyes, we proceed. Second, you were complaining about how "picking the wrong attributes can damage a player's advancement". The response that apparently failed to make any sense to you was the fact that the mere presence of learning skills is there to help alleviate the problem of bad attribute selection. Since nobody in their right mind (well, I am presuming you're not part of them, since you seem to think "all L5 learnings" are somewhat mandatory) would actually train all learnings to L5 from the get-go unless somebody puts this stupid idea into their heads in the first place, picking WHICH attribute-boosting learning skills to actually train to L5 at all can either alleviate a particularly bad starting attribute. So, for instance, let's take somebody with the lack of foresight and misfortune to have started with, say, 3 perception, but smart enough to stop at "all L4" learnings early on was mainly training trade skills and such up until now, with very low levels of combat-related skills. Suddendly, he decides he wants to be a combat pilot... "oh no, his attributes are atrocious". Hmm, are they ? The pathetic starter 3 got turned into a 15.12 already (from learnings and cheap +3 implants)... he could raise that even further to a 17.28 or even 17.6 by continuing his training. On the flip side, his starter charisma might have been 13, and could already be 25.92 (same skill levels/implants) if he would have actually bothered (maybe he didn't, and only trained the basic to L3 and never plugged in an implant, since it already seemed high enough for him at 17.28). Still, PERCENTUALLY SPEAKING, while those extra attribute points on the very high base attribute do little to no good for him, those extra points on the low attributes make a huge impact. Sure, you COULD urge each and every new player to "finish all learnings first", because, yes, in the long run, they WILL end up falling behind. But have you ever considered that maybe it doesn't really matter wether he will finish battleship L5 in 6 months and a week instead of 6 months, if you coerce/force him to WASTE up to two months of his starter career by training skills that he could care less about ? So yes, the learning skills ARE good, and the people who tell newbies to "train them first, FINISH them first even" are the only people doing any actual damage to the game. And those unable to see that are kind of slow-witted. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 05:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Akita T Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text OH GOD MY EYES! (hope you didn't really expect me to read all that this late at night... maybe tomorrow) ---------------- [insert signature here]
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 06:19:00 - [50] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Akita T Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text Wall of Text OH GOD MY EYES! (hope you didn't really expect me to read all that this late at night... maybe tomorrow) Why does everybody have to be such a complete and utter ***** when somebody makes a long post? If you don't want to read it at this time of night, just shut the ** up and go to bed. ------------------ Fix the forums!

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.28 07:03:00 - [51] Well, you know what ? How about this... it sounds like an equally asinine idea, so maybe you'd actually enjoy it. 1. Pump up the price of basic learnings to 500k ISK (soon 450k at most schools). 2. Leave "tier 2" ("advanced") learnings cost alone at 5 mil (4.5 mil), but increase to rank 4 (from 3), add "tier 2 learning" skill at same additional 2% increase per level. 3. Introduce all 6 "tier 3" ("expert") learnings at 50 mil (45 mil soon), rank 7. 4. Introduce all 6 "tier 4" ("elite") learnings at 500 mil (450 mil soon), rank 10. 5. HAVE LEARNINGS TRAIN WHILE another non-learning skill trains, both at "full rate". That means that you ALWAYS train BOTH a regular skill AND a learning skill at the same time. Sure, you get a lot more SP faster, BUT at least now you have to feel the pinch in the wallet too. And you have effectively eliminated the "need" to train learnings before... while giving a feeling of even greater overall progression for those who bother. Like I said, stupid idea, so I bet you'll love it. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Shmekla Lithuanians Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.05.28 07:46:00 - [52] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Professor Leech The learning skills were the worst idea ever. You spent a month learning learning skills instead of skills necessary to play the game. So who is forcing you to do that? EVE - because if you don't, you will be in the end of the line.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.28 08:31:00 - [53] Originally by: Shmekla Originally by: Farrqua So who is forcing you to do that? EVE - because if you don't, you will be in the end of the line. NOPE ! If you don't do them, or only do them partially, it's as if you started a bit later... days, weeks or months. That's all it is. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Man Bewbs	Posted - 2008.05.28 08:36:00 - [54] Learning skills were a bad idea and CCP regret it. Remove them Forget SP reinbersment.. forget pumping up peoples Atributes to compensate. Just remove them Support
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.28 08:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Man Bewbs Learning skills were a bad idea and CCP regret it. Read post #42... 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Maor Raor	Posted - 2008.05.28 08:51:00 - [56] Learning skills are ********. If you feel strongly enought that some atribute layouts are super gimped then just make the Skills take 3 atributes into account rather than 2. Chances are that one of those 3 will be high. In fact id go as far as to say that the Atribute system fails to add anything to the game at all other than hassel and regret for those with to much chrisma. Change inplants to +% learing speed and forget atributes compleatly.
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Maor Raor Edited by: Maor Raor on 28/05/2008 09:01:31 Learning skills are stoopid. If you feel strongly enough that some atribute layouts are super gimped then just make the Skills take 3 atributes into account rather than 2. Chances are that one of those 3 will be high. In fact id go as far as to say that the Atribute system fails to add anything to the game at all other than hassel and regret for those with to much chrisma. Change inplants to +% learing speed and forget atributes compleatly. I sleep well at night knowing no one is ever going to take any notice of your ludicrous ideas. www.eve-players.com
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 17:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Maor Raor Edited by: Maor Raor on 28/05/2008 09:01:31 Learning skills are stoopid. If you feel strongly enough that some atribute layouts are super gimped then just make the Skills take 3 atributes into account rather than 2. Chances are that one of those 3 will be high. In fact id go as far as to say that the Atribute system fails to add anything to the game at all other than hassel and regret for those with to much chrisma. Change inplants to +% learing speed and forget atributes compleatly. You are being a Troll. Congratulations you have clearly showed how "Stupid" you really are. (Notice spelling, might want to set a few training skills to fix that, and maybe grow a brain stem while you are at it.) I don't like to flame much, but trolls are fair game.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:07:00 - [59] In EVE there must be trade-offs. If you want Amarr Frigate V and Minmatar Frigate V, it takes more time than if you just train Minmatar Frigate V only. The more you add to your training plan, the more benefits you get, but the longer it takes. Learning skills, on the other hand, are pure meta-gaming. They add nothing in-game, but modify the game itself. They are "mandatory" because adding them actually shortens training plans. In normal skill training, trade-offs like generalization versus specialization give players real choices to make, but with Learning skills, training them is clearly optimal. It is not a real choice. Learning skills might be worth including if attributes actually influenced the game. For example, if perception and willpower influenced your gunnery, players would have to choose between training an extra point of Iron Will or an extra point of Motion Prediction (or whatever). There would be real trade-offs to be made. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Pirc Balar	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:18:00 - [60] Although I empathize with the OPs frustration, once I got the hang of which learning skills would help me with the skills I was interested in trying I really enjoyed that aspect of the skill system. I would echo some of the other posters in suggesting diversification of the learning skills, perhaps working something out that is a bit more friendly to the new player.

Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:31:00 - [61] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker In EVE there must be trade-offs. If you want Amarr Frigate V and Minmatar Frigate V, it takes more time than if you just train Minmatar Frigate V only. The more you add to your training plan, the more benefits you get, but the longer it takes. Learning skills, on the other hand, are pure meta-gaming. They add nothing in-game, but modify the game itself. They are "mandatory" because adding them actually shortens training plans. In normal skill training, trade-offs like generalization versus specialization give players real choices to make, but with Learning skills, training them is clearly optimal. It is not a real choice. Learning skills might be worth including if attributes actually influenced the game. For example, if perception and willpower influenced your gunnery, players would have to choose between training an extra point of Iron Will or an extra point of Motion Prediction (or whatever). There would be real trade-offs to be made. You have 1,036,550 SP in the Learning tree, not the 5,376,000 SP that you'd have if you truly believed what you're saying. Instead of getting your training time minimized overall, you've got yourself into Harbingers and Apocalypses first. You acknowledge by your actions that training Learning skills to shorten your overall training times is not optimal, because if it was optimal you'd have done it that way. Instead of grinding out the complete learning curve, you've chosen to get combat skills early. And I'll say that you're exactly correct to have done so - building your economic capacity has gotten you more attribute points, in the form of +4 implants, than it's cost you. Sure, getting your advanced learnings to 5 pays off in 4 years, and I'm sure Dr Caymus is loving them, but getting your character to self-sufficiency is more valuable to you, both in the form of implants and in the form of play value, than raw SP/hour. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:48:00 - [62] Edited by: Ulstan on 28/05/2008 18:49:21 Learning skills are fine as is. I say leave them how they are. EVE is about trade offs, and the sooner players get used to trade offs the better. No one (except particularly ignorant and misguided corporations like some of the ones mentioned in this thread) is forcing you to learn the learning skills before anything else. That's just dumb. And boring. That's not what I did. Training the basics up to IV in the areas you wish to focus in is 100% painless. Hell nowadays they come trained for you, so you can get up to IV in the advanced skills for a couple attributes in a couple days. Then all your stuff is training MUCH faster than without the skills. Even getting ALL the skills to IV is pretty painless, and then you're basically learning as fast as you can. There's a pretty minor difference between the IV and the V levels. If you don't want to spend all that time learning the learning skills, you can mix and match skills to keep you progressing through the game at a good clip while still increasing your attributes. This is what I and every other intelligent person does. You have to evaluate whether you want "Little now" or "More later". Therefore, I suggest leaving it how it is as a deliberate trap to the people who can't think and brainlessly try to train all their learning skills first, instead of learning to think intelligently and prioritize.
Eirikk	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:10:00 - [63] NAY!!!
Athre The HIgher Standard	Posted - 2008.05.29 15:13:00 - [64] as I mentioned in the other thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=780098&page=1#27 leave them alone. What gives you the right to say newcommers are better than vets? thats what you are saying here "no learning skills". When we all signed up it was known that if you were planning on playing less than 1 year, dont go passed learning 4. Now there are advanced learning skills and that 64 day Battleship 5 skill only takes about 20 days. Worth the learning skill time no?
Madam Kaktar	Posted - 2008.06.01 01:57:00 - [65] Ok, learning skills suck, but they shouldn't be removed from the game. Increase starter characters' sp by 500,000 (probably not a realistic number) and put all these new sp in learning skills relevant to their career choice.
Robbo Midlandson	Posted - 2008.06.01 02:23:00 - [66] i'd like to throw my 2 pennies into this here convo, now as a new player (3months or so) i believe learning skills are a good balance for the game, but alot of my mates who started out at the same time as me have left because of the riducilus training times on some of them, now i'm all for keeping them but for the newer player would it not be an idea good or bad to maybe decrese the training time on just the learning skills???? i dont mind happily trying to leave something running in my skills for 15-30 days for something like a dread, or carrier or something useful that helps me progress in the game, but spending 6-10 days as some of my mates have done learning skills like focus and learning just isn't a fun thing. decrease the training time and maybe some +10 learning implants would be nice for us newbies as were often called, but from my own expierence it would just give the game a nice big kick up the learning skills backside tbh and i for one would welcome that.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.01 05:38:00 - [67] An alternative to learning skills might just be an automatic acceleration of learning abilities over time. So for brand new players, a rank 1 skill might take 7 days to get to level 5, but for year old players it'll take 5 days, and eventually after a couple years will level off at 3-4 days (accelerating at a decreasing rate). That way new players (for whom rank 2 skills like Racial Frigate V are a big deal) will have to be patient for those skills, but older players (working on rank 16 skills and the like) will have accelerated training for the much longer skills they're working on. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.01 11:13:00 - [68] Face it, learning skills are there to give CCP extra $15-$30 per character. It's a scam. You know, like that 90mil not-quite-navy caracal contract? Same thing. We've all been had. The difference is, some of the suckers are foaming at the mouth, claiming that their shiny new it's-not-navy-srsly caracal is just as good. If you like learning skills so much, why aren't you asking for more time sinks? How about a rank-10 skill Pointless Waste of Time, level 4 required to fly any cruiser or higher? Anybody who doesn't like it can stick to frigates.
BlondieBC 7th Tribal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.01 13:02:00 - [69] Don't Support.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2008.06.01 15:27:00 - [70] Support 100%, as long as I am allowed to redistribute the points spent on Learning to other skills.

Theel Maas Errant Legion	Posted - 2008.06.01 19:48:00 - [71] I have them maxed out and I support this 100%. They do not add to the game in a positive way. I think their removal would attract many new players to the game.
Aya Otosaki Titan Indurstrial	Posted - 2008.06.01 20:14:00 - [72] remove them ----- Ignorance is my strength.
Arkanjuca R.U.S.T.	Posted - 2008.06.01 21:06:00 - [73] wipe them out -- Whatever works for you...
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.02 04:02:00 - [74] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz Face it, learning skills are there to give CCP extra $15-$30 per character. It's a scam. You know, like that 90mil not-quite-navy caracal contract? Same thing. We've all been had. The difference is, some of the suckers are foaming at the mouth, claiming that their shiny new it's-not-navy-srsly caracal is just as good. If you like learning skills so much, why aren't you asking for more time sinks? How about a rank-10 skill Pointless Waste of Time, level 4 required to fly any cruiser or higher? Anybody who doesn't like it can stick to frigates. OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points? I do not see any solution or cognitive reasoning in your frothing rant. If you are so set in doing away with them, enlighten us on you plan to do it. There is not one solid theme in this thread. Everyone is all over the place or throwing out one liners because they have no clue.
Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.02 04:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Farrqua OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points? Compensation? In EVE, you don't get reimbursed after falling victim to a scam. Instead, you try to avoid getting scammed in the future. What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly?
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.02 05:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz Originally by: Farrqua OK bright guy how do suppose to compensate everyones skill points? Compensation? In EVE, you don't get reimbursed after falling victim to a scam. Instead, you try to avoid getting scammed in the future. What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly? Heh, that's a good one. ... What's that? You're serious? ... No, really? You actually mean that? You actually mean to suggest that getting scammed by a player via a mechanism you ought to have known was susceptible to it, and having two months of skill training arbitrarily ripped off your character by the devs with nothing to show for it are the same thing? jaw hits floor ------------------ Fix the forums!
Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.02 10:06:00 - [77] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto No, really? You actually mean that? You actually mean to suggest that getting scammed by a player via a mechanism you ought to have known was susceptible to it, and having two months of skill training arbitrarily ripped off your character by the devs with nothing to show for it are the same thing? On one hand, we have the unfortunate idiot who farmed missions for a week just to afford to accept a freeform contract. On the other hand we all flipped enough burgers to make $30 and spend it in subscription fees to train learning skills. Contracts were changed to be more readable in order to make scamming harder. Victims didn't get reimbursement. Learning is just another stupid game mechanic. I don't see why its victims must get something back. Is it because real money is involved? What if I buy 300mil ISK via GTCs, then lose it to a surprise extra-long session timer, do I get my money back?
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.06.02 10:47:00 - [78] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz Learning is just another stupid game mechanic. I don't see why its victims must get something back. That is quite the most stupid line of reasoning i have ever seen on these forums. Thankfully CCP arent going to pay any attention to you. www.eve-players.com
Pastor Blew	Posted - 2008.06.02 10:51:00 - [79] I do not support this idea. Learning skills are a part of this game that should stay.
RoCkEt X The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.06.02 11:04:00 - [80] i dont support this, as i've said in the other thread.

Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.02 11:39:00 - [81] Edited by: Voculus on 02/06/2008 11:39:22 HUGE thumbs up from me on the removal of learning skills. Supposing they ever do get removed, I'd be fine with not even being reimbursed for them, knowing that Eve was a better game. Learning skills don't make Eve unique - they make it a bigger grind. Training times across the board, from rank 1 to the ludicrous rank 14, all need to be slashed in half, too. _________________________________________________________
Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.02 18:06:00 - [82] Originally by: ViolenTUK That is quite the most stupid line of reasoning i have ever seen on these forums. Thankfully CCP arent going to pay any attention to you. Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread. Now go run along while the adults talk.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.06.02 18:11:00 - [83] Quote: What plan do you require besides removing the darned things and tweaking the learning rates accordingly? Wait, why should we tweak the learning rates? Why aren't you supporting a plain 'remove all learning skills' platform?
Theel Maas Errant Legion	Posted - 2008.06.02 18:27:00 - [84] Edited by: Theel Maas on 02/06/2008 18:27:59 Because many skills are designed around the concept of learning skills existing. Without them we'd all lose 11+ points per attribute, making skills take .3 to 3x as long to train, depending on default attributes and implants. Rather than removing the learning skills I'd like to see cybernetics expanded upon and replacing the learning skills with these. Take augmentations to the next level, and along with it allow players to gain more attributes through that. For example, these new learning augments might be school-specific (Engineering/Gunnery/whatever) and/or have SP caps that once reached they would expire and free up the slot they were inserted into. In the meantime they might produce extremely accelerated results in the skill school you're pursuing. If these implants were craftable you'd have the added benefit of creating a new market, and placing greater demand on current supply.
Red Thunder Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.06.02 19:50:00 - [85] I definietly agree. Iv introduced a lot of people to eve, but a lot of them got bored to start with due to learning new skills very slowly. I then tell them to learn the learning skills first, but then they dont get into new ships for ages and again lose interest in the game. My idea would be to start new people with higher atributes, which will then slowly degrade to like they are now over the first month or two of gameplay. This would mean that new people can get a decent ship and advance through the game quickly to start with (making them more interested in the game and more likely to stay), and then by their atributes start to drop they will be happy with the ships they have and will be used to the long training times (a lot of my friends were ***ed off by even having to wait an hour or two for a lvl 1 skill when they started) Might have some issues with farmers making new accounts following a ban very quickly, but I think this idea could be workable. red Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines*
Konquera McCall Acme Import Export	Posted - 2008.06.04 14:57:00 - [86]
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.04 16:48:00 - [87] Edited by: procurement specialist on 04/06/2008 16:49:15 why not just take the sp in learning skills atm and let you reassign it from the web to new skills? Then give everyone +7-9 for all attributes. I have learning trained to 9 atm. most people train tehm to at leas 7 or 8. The +10 people would suddenly get 5m sp to throw into anything else they wanted anyway. alternatively you could have an extra 2 - 10 skill points from the learning pool tick off every second in addition to your current learning until the sp from the pool was depleted in game. This will at least make people log in to change skills still without instantly giving them bs V without in game training time. Then do the same with the attribute bump. The difference is players can grief and scam other players. CCP should not as there is no way to defend against them greifing you. (ignoring lag issue ) edit also if you did the second idea with the newbie builds that come with learning skills. they could learn those first skills much much faster.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.04 17:45:00 - [88] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 04/06/2008 17:55:33 Regarging the issue about "don't steal from experienced players without compensation": Don't remove learning skills. Give new characters the learning skills (at 4/4) right away. Nothing taken away from the vets, only added to the rookies. Not supporting this idea. I'm ambivalent about the learning skills; getting them to 4 takes less than a week, and you can fly a frig easily until then, learning the game. Then you earn ISK, get the advanced skills and train them to 3, which is also ok. My main problem with learning skills is not that they're such a big problem, but rather that they don't actually add anything to the game, except wait time, which is a bit problematic. Actually, I do think that the whole attribute thing needs a revamp. Remove starting attribute differences. Yes, no more uber-Achura and lol-whatever. Every race starts with all attributes at 8. After that, only learning skills (invested time) and implants (risked ISK) affect the attributes. Bloodline and ancestry affect your starting learning skills. Say, two learning skills start out at 4, two more at 3, remaining one at 2. This would mean that a new player can dive into their preferred area right away, and just need a few days to bring up the remaining areas to 4 if you want to broaden their horizon, too. Advanced learning skills can be trained up when ISK allows, retaining the time+ISK now vs. time+ISK later choice. (I wouldn't mind just starting out at 12 or so, and not having advanced learning skills, but as said above, I'm ambivalent about that)
Tellnan Matkiel Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.04 20:41:00 - [89] Don't support. As a fairly new player myself (just over three months) I find nothing wrong with them. If people are unable to decide by themselves whether learning skills are or are not a good investment for their plans then why on earth are they playing a game that is all about various risks and costs versus rewards?
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.04 21:11:00 - [90] I definitely support this. Abolish learning skills, give everyone +10 to all stats, reimburse the skillpoints from people who trained the learning skills.

Draygo Korvan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:59:00 - [91] Give everyone +10 in all attributes leave basic learning skill alone Refund sp spent in learning skills by doubling training speed until you gain back twice the amount of SP you lost. Remove the 800k SP character builds and revert them to before they were introduced. Newbies need to spend more time in frigates, and less time on learning skills.
Maabuss Exiles of Chaos	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:56:00 - [92] If learning skills are removed, I expect to be reimbursed on the full SP I spent on the learning block and be allowed to put it where I please. I didn't spend months on that block to be screwed later on. Regards, Maabuss ____________________________________________ You Can't Outrun Death Forever, But You Can Make The Bastard Work For It.
Satis Tyr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:12:00 - [93] Learning Skills should be done away with and skill training time should be re-ballanced once they are gone. CCP might even give us our skill points back.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.06.11 08:23:00 - [94] Silly @ OP. Eve is more than SP. Learning the game is more than just being able to fly whatever class of hull. And that, takes time. If the process of waiting for skills to finish is boring, then look at what happens in the meantime. Just want to say that you're playing for the wrong reason if copying some meaningless number into your corp chat is the highlight of the playtime. o7
Sanity Lost	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:57:00 - [95] I disagree. Learning skills should stay as as far as i can see they activly encourage people to stay with the game as they teach how rewarding planning your career can be.
tastylady	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:59:00 - [96] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread. Now go run along while the adults talk. You had better leave at the same time. I think sir you have a little growing up to do.
Macon Squaredealer Squaredeal Enterprises	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:12:00 - [97] I don't support this idea. Leave them alone.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:10:00 - [98] Edited by: Voculus on 11/06/2008 22:11:45 Originally by: Sanity Lost I disagree. Learning skills should stay as as far as i can see they activly encourage people to stay with the game as they teach how rewarding planning your career can be. You are incorrect, sir. After wasting so many days and weeks on learning skills, I did not walk away with an appreciation of career planning. I ALREADY KNEW THE VALUE OF THAT! I'm not a child, and this is a game, for crying out loud. All I came away with, was resentment that I had to flush almost 2 months down the drain in order to stay abreast of everyone else. In any case, the devs themselves have stated that they would like to see learning skills done away with. I don't think you'll find more resounding endorsement of this thread, than that. _________________________________________________________
Dagas Hunter	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:49:00 - [99] I believe I heard a CCP guy talking about this some time ago, but they had no good solutions. I agree that having to spend a couple of months to train how to train faster is slowing things down. It takes forever before you can even start playing the game and you don't want to train anything before learning because you know you'll loose SP in the long run by doing that. I already have all learning skills maxxed out so if they plan to take them away I hope I'll get compensated somehow for the millions of SP invested (4-5m or something I believe).
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:29:00 - [100] Personally, having gone through the drudgery of training all basic learning to 4 and advanced to 4 (except Charisma of course ), I would have no problem if they were wiped from the database. Would I be disappointed at the wasted time? Maybe, but I think I'd be more excited at seeing a hated enemy vanquished. That's what the learning skills were/are to me, an obstacle to be suffered through, not an engaging part of the gameplay or an element of what makes the experience fun and enjoyable. Honestly, if I weren't so stubborn/obsessive, I don't think there's any way I would have lasted in EVE through the bulk of my learning time. As it was I barely logged in for a good part of it. For all the vets who say "we had to do it, so they should stay," do you guys actually hear yourselves? Do you realize how much elitist crap that is? Or do you just not remember what it was like? Don't give me this "it was a good experience," or "it was fun," crap, I've been there, I've done it, and it stank like a manure heap in August. If we get compensated for our time spent training learning skills, that'd just be icing on the cake. It'd be simple enough, just let those with SP in learning skills spend those points on oether skills. Whichever skill they activate for training next gets those points applied to it instantly, and so on with the next skill until they run out of extra SP, and then normal training resumes. But as I said, I'd be happy enough just to see them go. If you're concerned about being able to use learning skills to correct poor attribute choices made at character creation, I have a couple ideas on that. One is to have a limited set of trainable skills, similar to the current learning skills, except with the training time independent of the current level of the skill, but rather scaling according to your current level in that attribute (minus implants). The idea being that if you have a lower attribute, you can raise it faster, and higher attributes become more difficult to raise. This would allow for some quick equalization of neglected attributes while limiting the relative need or ability to boost anything beyond a maximum level. The other idea I had is to introduce new implants, possibly requiring a new implant slot, possibly just making use of an existing one. These implants would boost one attribute at the cost of lowering another by the same amount. This would allow for a rebalance of sorts. For example, if you put too many points in everyone's favorite attribute, Charisma, you could use one of these implants to shift your wasted points to something a little more useful. Anyway, that's my 0.02 ISK on the subject, let's hope pooling our money adds up to something worthwhile. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy

Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:36:00 - [101] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Personally, having gone through the drudgery of training all basic learning to 4 and advanced to 4 (except Charisma of course ), I would have no problem if they were wiped from the database. Would I be disappointed at the wasted time? Maybe, but I think I'd be more excited at seeing a hated enemy vanquished. That's what the learning skills were/are to me, an obstacle to be suffered through, not an engaging part of the gameplay or an element of what makes the experience fun and enjoyable. Honestly, if I weren't so stubborn/obsessive, I don't think there's any way I would have lasted in EVE through the bulk of my learning time. As it was I barely logged in for a good part of it. For all the vets who say "we had to do it, so they should stay," do you guys actually hear yourselves? Do you realize how much elitist crap that is? Or do you just not remember what it was like? Don't give me this "it was a good experience," or "it was fun," crap, I've been there, I've done it, and it stank like a manure heap in August. If we get compensated for our time spent training learning skills, that'd just be icing on the cake. It'd be simple enough, just let those with SP in learning skills spend those points on oether skills. Whichever skill they activate for training next gets those points applied to it instantly, and so on with the next skill until they run out of extra SP, and then normal training resumes. But as I said, I'd be happy enough just to see them go. If you're concerned about being able to use learning skills to correct poor attribute choices made at character creation, I have a couple ideas on that. One is to have a limited set of trainable skills, similar to the current learning skills, except with the training time independent of the current level of the skill, but rather scaling according to your current level in that attribute (minus implants). The idea being that if you have a lower attribute, you can raise it faster, and higher attributes become more difficult to raise. This would allow for some quick equalization of neglected attributes while limiting the relative need or ability to boost anything beyond a maximum level. The other idea I had is to introduce new implants, possibly requiring a new implant slot, possibly just making use of an existing one. These implants would boost one attribute at the cost of lowering another by the same amount. This would allow for a rebalance of sorts. For example, if you put too many points in everyone's favorite attribute, Charisma, you could use one of these implants to shift your wasted points to something a little more useful. Anyway, that's my 0.02 ISK on the subject, let's hope pooling our money adds up to something worthwhile. Actually asking the leaning skills to be taken a way and not giving anything back to the "Vets" is kind of a slap in the face. As you call them Elitist for telling you "We did why shouldn't you" is in the same vein as you telling them "Tough Deal with, it sucks". So you are being no better than the Elitist bad guys you are so bent on making sure they do not get what they have worked hard for. Because you are not only taking away what they invested, you are taking away what they will earn in the future.
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:05:00 - [102] Edited by: ViolenTUK on 12/06/2008 12:06:18 The Dev's considered removing learning skills from the game but at present they have no plans for removing them. I really donÆt see what the problem with learning these skills are. Learning skills were introduced to increase the speed of which you learn they donÆt slow you down at all. Before learning skills were introduced the attributes were no different and learning skills were there as an investment in time which helped players learn new skills if they took time to do so. With this in mind I find it a difficult pill to swallow when I see players say that they slow down you overall learning as they are seen as mandatory. The net effect is that increase your sp per hour not reduce. I can see the differing points of view in this thread and I can understand that some players may be put off with the prospect of putting 2 weeks into learning skills I however have seen most of the players I have talked to been actively encouraged by learning skills and feel they add to the game. I feel I have kept and introduced new players to the game not lost them. The eve community has mixed emotions about learning skills. I cant see learning skills being removed from the game and if they were you can be assured that ccp would reimburse the investment made. Saying otherwise is outright foolish. There is one possible work around for learning skills if they do eventually fall into the grey. What could be done is to give all players in eve 800000 sp and include this in the new character creation and invest these skill points into learning skills. This way new players would gain a great deal jumping to 1.6 million skill points and they wont need to spend a great deal of time in learning skills. Older players such as myself will almost not notice an 800000 increase and would in fact serve to close the gap a little between veteran and new players which in itself is an issue for debate. CCp did do this once before in a patch not long after I started playing. It was the most fair and equitable method conceivable at the time. www.eve-players.com
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.12 16:39:00 - [103] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Siresa Talesi ... Actually asking the leaning skills to be taken a way and not giving anything back to the "Vets" is kind of a slap in the face. As you call them Elitist for telling you "We did why shouldn't you" is in the same vein as you telling them "Tough Deal with, it sucks". So you are being no better than the Elitist bad guys you are so bent on making sure they do not get what they have worked hard for. Because you are not only taking away what they invested, you are taking away what they will earn in the future. Maybe you should go back and read the part where I trained the skills myself, past tense, been there, done that. I think that buys me a little authority on the matter. So far as compensating those of us who have trained the learning skills, I gave my suggestions for it. I don't think that it is a bad idea to do so, my point was just that I hated having to go through those skills so much that I personally could care less whether I was compensated as long as it meant the skills would be gone. I never said to take away anything from those with the skills, just said that personally I would feel little loss if the skills were removed without compensation. "We did it, so should you" is not a valid reason for a decision. If there is a better way to handle the situation, why not take it?
JGR Mao JGR Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.12 20:10:00 - [104] No support for this idea. I would infact suggest even more advanced learning skills being introduced
Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:31:00 - [105] Edited by: Nynaeve Ares on 13/06/2008 14:31:33 I'd go for somewhere in between - get rid of basic learning skills and give everyone +5 on all their stats, (problem is how to compensate people who have trained those skills already) and i'd keep the advanced learning skills as a choice of progression. Two months training learning skills is a rediculous barrier to entry imo.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:26:00 - [106] Can't support this, although it's a good idea I don't trust CCP to refund the ~15m sp I have spread across my accounts in learning.
Kitoba Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:31:00 - [107] I will support introducing level 3 to 54432645 training skills, taking at least ten thousand years to max out, so everybody will stop whining.
ViolenTUK Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:42:00 - [108] Originally by: Nynaeve Ares Edited by: Nynaeve Ares on 13/06/2008 14:31:33 I'd go for somewhere in between - get rid of basic learning skills and give everyone +5 on all their stats, (problem is how to compensate people who have trained those skills already) and i'd keep the advanced learning skills as a choice of progression. Two months training learning skills is a rediculous barrier to entry imo. It doesnt take 2 months. 2 weeks will bring you up to par typically. www.eve-players.com
Nynaeve Ares Animus Incarnate	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:58:00 - [109] You're playing minigolf then, my par is advanced learning skills to lvl 4.
Fartarse UK Corp Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:30:00 - [110] [no support] So, let's see. Those peeps who want to scrap the learning skills are (generally) using the reason that they are a waste of time! Fine, have CCP return your SP's, but at the same time have them reduce your attributes respectively. You seem to want the benefits of the higher attributes without having to expend the time it takes to get them there. Put simply, you want a quick-fix, 'I win' button! New characters now start with 800,000+ SP's compared to the <80,000 older players had - with my not-quite-maxed learning skills, that is equivalent to approx 2 weeks of training SOCT skills now only have a pre-requisite of the relevant basic skill at lvl 4, as against the previous requirement of lvl 5 - saving over 30 days training Implants now cost < 25% of the price they were 3 years ago and with the new Loyalty Store, they are much easier to get hold of. Assuming that you don't want to completely remove training time from the game, there is nothing wrong with the current system. Not training learning skills does not stop anyone from playing the game, it merely means it will take longer to attain the necessary skills. Investing some of your training time to the learning skills will reap rewards in the long-term. At the end of the day, Eve-Online has always been a game where effort = reward. Removing learning skills would be similar to starting other RPG's at Level 10 and in doing so, the players would miss an important part of the game. Part of the magic of Eve is that while you are training those learning skills, you are also learning how to play the game!

Marcellus Corteaz Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Fartarse At the end of the day, Eve-Online has always been a game where effort = reward. Removing learning skills would be similar to starting other RPG's at Level 10 and in doing so, the players would miss an important part of the game. What are you, straight from special ed? Clicking "train skill" doesn't take effort. Unlike, you know, grinding levels in WoW. Now, you might argue that farming 22.5mil to buy learning skills is a fun activity that every new player must go through. It might be hard to understand for an industry-oriented player such as yourself (you are missing accel control 4 by the way), but not everybody enjoys running missions over and over.
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:55:00 - [112] Edited by: Alty MacAlterson on 15/06/2008 14:54:57 Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz industry-oriented player You misspelled "stupid carebear"
Hurtado Soneka	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:13:00 - [113] Am in favour of this idea, a global attribute boost across the board is fair, makes the game more exciting (especially for new players) and removes a branch of skills that is, more or less, completely pointless. A skill to learn skills faster mmmmm.....rather get on with the game and hundreds of skills that do things interesting tbh!
Feng Schui Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:20:00 - [114] Where is the Advanced Learning skillbook Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Terail Zoqial	Posted - 2008.06.23 16:42:00 - [115] I agree, I have 5/4 in all skills and would still be quite happy for CCP to do away with them, they are yet another time sink which take attention from the joy of eve imho.
Colonel Rykef Animus Exuro	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:44:00 - [116] Most people who quit eve never get to see the exciting bit that we see as their still bogged down by learning skills or being forced to do very very long skills, I say just do away with the first teir of learning have have just the SOCAT books
Franconian Eagle Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2008.06.27 14:56:00 - [117] You only train learning skills to overcome an initial handicap. Therefore I support this.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.27 19:19:00 - [118] Even vets had to train them, so leave them be and introduce more afaic.
Neth'Rae Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.27 19:55:00 - [119] I quit playing EVE when I first started because of I got tired of training learning skills for a month.. Now I got all at lvl 4 or 5, but I would have much rather have them removed for the newer players. Request signatures at EVE-GFX
Cpt Jagermeister Spacelane Ghosts	Posted - 2008.06.28 01:21:00 - [120]

laurazine First Caldari Regiment	Posted - 2008.06.28 02:49:00 - [121] It's not the learning skill training time that is the problem, it's the stupid advice given to new players that they have to train them all right away. You can train the skills you need as well as the Learning skills on a rotating basis, thus keeping you in new toys and gaining faster training time without outright sacrificing either one for the other.
Bl00dyAngel Caldari Brothers Of Republic Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:42:00 - [122] i like the idea to remove them. Its ugly for new players to spend time to learn learnings. But the new way, need to be balance well. As old player it does not hurts me to lose the time i spend in them. I got my bonus for them. And without them new players can consentrate on the funny things, like new ships and weapons. In fakt of this eve becomes a lote more nooby friendly. And we all profit from more eve player. Maybe ccp can put a explore the universe thing in the game. For example the newbie becomes the mission to fly to ruins in a system. Or the the mission to fly 10 jumps into .0 space (with a guide in the front of course). And from the expirience the car will get in this mission, the pilot will get a short boost on one of the attributes. For Example +2 to Willpower.
Dr Sheepbringer	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:54:00 - [123] But remember that learning skills take patience and eventually eve has to a lot to do with patience. Learning skills also scare away those "fps morons". Yes, we might get more active players...but their quality...? Learning skills don't just speed up learning, but you also learn while studying your current skills. Getting a new skill everyday would make you skill hungry, not talent hungry. I've done tons of research on items/tactics etc. while waiting for learning skills to finish.
Bl00dyAngel Brothers Of Republic Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.06.28 08:58:00 - [124] i dont think, that learnings change the quality of new players. and i never hear that they make some one skill hungry. and at last i forget to hit the support button :D
Futchmacht Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.28 10:45:00 - [125] This is a very VERY bad idea. First off EVE is about players all playing the game together. but at the same time no players are = and the same. the learning skills like all skills are a huge part of that system. #1. we all had to go through learning the learning skills as a noob. its part of being a noob. #2. You dont even have to learn the learning skills if you dont want to its a choice. Some people only learn there learning skills (the 1st set to level 4 and stop). Then they learn the second set to level 4 and stop). These people then PICK other skills they want and or need. and in the mean time lose out on skill points for all other skills in order to get what they want NOW. #3. As a person with all learning skills at level 5 BOTH sets. I sacrificed the ability to do alot of skills in the beginning of the game. but now im learning way faster then many others esp with implants. Thats becasue i made the choice!! to sacrifice then to gain now. Some of the friends that i started playing with all of us from day one started at the same time i now have well over them in skill points some of them as much as 5 million Sp's why because i decided no i will wait to fly that battleship or T2 ship a few more weeks. Now im making up for it and bypassing others of my chars age. because of the choice i made. To me thats an advantage i worked for buy planning ahead. EVE has never been about people being = its been about everyone being different. and one way i might be different from others is i wanted to learn ALL the learning skills to MAX while others did NOT. thats EVE .. its about choices and about being different!
XLR Eight Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.29 00:44:00 - [126]
SickSeven	Posted - 2008.06.29 03:51:00 - [127] Remove the skills, let new players start with higher attributes and make implants the only thing one can do to speed up skill training.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.06.29 13:21:00 - [128] Edited by: Morcam on 29/06/2008 13:22:52 I would love this, to be honest, and yes, I am 4/4 on nearly all of my learnings. To be honest, the older players do not comprehend how much of a show-stopper this is for the newer players. Trial accounts only last two weeks, which isn't enough time to even get all the learnings done. When the first thing you tell someone as they join the game is that they have to train skills so they can train skills, they instantly think that the rest of the game is going to be just like that. Mind-numbingly boring. I believe someone said that 18 million isk isn't much at all. You must've started eve a looooong time ago, cause that actually is a LOT of isk for a newbie. Taking off the weeks of training time when they first start would go a long way towards putting people in the EvE experience, and having fun in it, rather than feeling like they have to grind (And customer retention). I have something like 800k sp in learnings, and I would be more than happy to give it up to have more people play the game. Some of the vets have gotten so obsessed with SP, that they can't stand the thought of having 1.2 mil less. So, remove learnings, and pin on that permanent SP.
Deldrac Bat Country Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.29 13:32:00 - [129] Yes. Obv.
Nimani	Posted - 2008.07.10 22:41:00 - [130] Atleast start by removing the advance ones and to compensate give everybody +5 in all skill groups.

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.07.11 01:15:00 - [131] I don't see the problem here, you don't like them don't use them, same as with implants. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.11 01:41:00 - [132] There's no real reason to remove them. The two biggest arguments are that they are mandatory for new players and that they are a waste of time. The whole point of the learning skills originally was to give the player the choice between short-term and long-term skill prioritisation. Since this is a choice, they are obviously not mandatory for new players, as that would be a contradiction. They are only mandatory for minmaxers. If someone considers them a waste of time, obviously they should prioritize short term skilling and forget the learning skills. Keep in mind that the total time to train them all to a decent level will eventually be overshadowed by later skills. They are only daunting if you train them right off the bat. Some people are incapable of making or understanding this choice, which is where the idea that they are mandatory or that you are 'losing SP' if you don't train them comes from. Well, the lowest common denominator is not a good target when balancing the complexity of the game. There are two good reasons to keep them. First, it requires no work to leave them as is. Second, the fallacies generated by people who don't understand how these skills fit into the greater scheme of things are a constant source of lulz. - DesuSigs
Lt Graco	Posted - 2008.07.11 03:46:00 - [133] Thumb down for a bad idea. Losing learning skills = homogenization and dumbing down of EVE. Better idea would be to establish another server where a new player starts with 10 - 20 mil SP and trains at 4 or 5 times the rate on Tranquility. The FPS/instant gratification kids could go there and reduce our server load.
Tesseract d'Urberville Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:09:00 - [134] I agree that Learning skills are a needless time sink and add nothing to the game - they are a tedium now to reduce more tedium later. There is a broad consensus that all players should train them eventually. Whenever you do decide to train them (if you know you're in it for the long haul and train them up front, or if you get slowly sucked into the game and train them late), they're just time that's not spent training immediately applicable skills. If they are eliminated, all skills' training time should reflect pilots having all learning skills at level 5. There is already a wide variety of obvious benefits that longtime pilots have by their own choices: more money, better standings, better ships and equipment (including implants), and more skills. Eliminating Learning Skills is a great idea, but very difficult to implement fairly, to compensate older pilots who have foregone other skills to train the learning skills all the way up. So honestly, I don't expect that this is going to go anywhere... --------------------------------- Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains.
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:36:00 - [135] Ya learning skills are lame and make starting out a boring pain in the ass but I already trained them I don't give a damn about new players so I don't care to see the devs spend time fixing this problem that they could instead spend on something I care about for myself today. Personally I didn't even play for the first month on the advice of a friend. I just timecarded the ISK for the adv. learning skillbooks and a set of +4 implants and switched skills until the character was ready to have fun with.
Toman Jerich Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.07.16 21:39:00 - [136] Also you're crazy if you think the elimination of learning skills will let you ultimately get to fun skills faster. CCP has the learning skills in the game as a timesink. The point of them is to keep you away from the fun skills for longer, so that you'll subscribe to the game for longer waiting to get to the fun skills. The more time you spend subscribed, the more money you pay CCP. If they eliminate the learning skills, they still won't do anything to help you get to the fun skills any faster.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 22:11:00 - [137] Originally by: Morcam Edited by: Morcam on 29/06/2008 13:22:52 I would love this, to be honest, and yes, I am 4/4 on nearly all of my learnings. To be honest, the older players do not comprehend how much of a show-stopper this is for the newer players. Trial accounts only last two weeks, which isn't enough time to even get all the learnings done. When the first thing you tell someone as they join the game is that they have to train skills so they can train skills, they instantly think that the rest of the game is going to be just like that. Mind-numbingly boring. Yea the older players have no Idea. They were given a pass and just skipped them. Originally by: Morcam I believe someone said that 18 million isk isn't much at all. You must've started eve a looooong time ago, cause that actually is a LOT of isk for a newbie. Taking off the weeks of training time when they first start would go a long way towards putting people in the EvE experience, and having fun in it, rather than feeling like they have to grind (And customer retention). Yes the isk were coming out of our ears then, so CCP implemented the "Bling Patch" and so I am sorry for your suffering. Originally by: Morcam I have something like 800k sp in learnings, and I would be more than happy to give it up to have more people play the game. Some of the vets have gotten so obsessed with SP, that they can't stand the thought of having 1.2 mil less. So, remove learnings, and pin on that permanent SP. Whats a months worth of training any way. You wouldn't mind tossing 1.2 mil sp's away to support this cause would you? I mean it is all for the best isn't it? So thank you for your sage advice. Now get off my lawn before I whack you with my cane.
Dihania Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:49:00 - [138] no no no :P Very few have invested teh same into learning skills. This makes most pilots different becasue they will not train their skills as fast or slow as others. Couple this with implants adn initial attributes and we get the cool diversity. NO U [hr] Sniggwaffe is recruiting
Ivena Amethyst	Posted - 2008.07.17 12:00:00 - [139] if i remember correctly ccp already wants to remove learning skills 'cuz they feel like it's makeing it harder for new players to get in to the game and also, needless to say, training learning skills sux hard since they dint give u (the ability to use) any new cool stuff
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.17 14:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Ivena Amethyst if i remember correctly ccp already wants to remove learning skills 'cuz they feel like it's makeing it harder for new players to get in to the game and also, needless to say, training learning skills sux hard since they dint give u (the ability to use) any new cool stuff Link it.

Arthmandar Valikari Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:54:00 - [141] I disagree wholeheartedly with the complete removal of learning skills under the argument that 'it makes it harder for new players to complete effectively'. That issue is almost completely dealt with in the fact that skills are exponential in required points for levels (level 1 is superfast, level 2 fast, level 3 slow, level 4 really slow, level 5 takes a looong time) with fixed payoffs. On the other hand, I think learning skills are perhaps overpowered. Eve is about specialization, but specialization in learning grants you a significant specialization bonus in every skill category. I can see why that's bad. But Eve is about specialization. I would only support a proposal to remove general learning skills if new skills were invented to take their place, i.e. "Gunnery Training" which gives the same benefits as the learning skills but only to skills in the gunnery subtree, etc. One per category is probably about right. Just saying that removal of learning skills should be done to make it easier for new players to compete is the same as saying we should remove all gunnery support skills (rapid fire, sharpshooting, etc.) because veteran controlled guns hit harder and track better from farther away than n00b controlled guns, and that makes it harder for n00bs to compete. At some point, the game is fun because you can be better at something than someone else. If you want a truly level playing field for new players... the veterans aren't going to have any reason to stick around. tl;dr - learning skills are overpowered, but removing them is wrong. Specializing them might be much better. No support here for OP suggestion.
Infernal Travesty	Posted - 2008.07.19 12:25:00 - [142] Not supported here (even as a relative n00b, bout a month). People on the rookie help channel will advise that a new player trains all their learning skills first and, if people take this advise, then I agree that the game would be very boring for those on a trial, not being able to see themselves get better at anything other than learning. IMO skill training is not only about specialisation, its also about balance. True, specialise in the type of ship you want to fly and the types of weapons you want to use, but the Learning skills should be balanced among these. One of the biggest things that attracted me to EVE was the lack of grinding :) I'm perfectly happy to offset that hugely monotonous task by committing a little of my time to learn, and if theres a way I can learn faster: fantastic! And I don't even have to be here to do it! I also believe that it separates those who just wanna blow stuff up from those of us who are willing to put in the time it takes and become a little more committed. As already mentioned it creates diversity. And diversity is good. Anyway I ramble.... Not Supported
Banlish Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:32:00 - [143] NOT SUPPORTED But on that same train of thought why not go the other way? Part one Some of the reasons we don't have new toons starting with more then 800k sp's are the fact that accounts can have 'alts' which can be started at any time and give players an advantage. Many ppl see the skill paths to get 'cyno alts, trade alts, manufacturing alts, scout alts, research alts and so on' make accounts have 'mains' and secondary toons. Secondary toons start with the 800k we have now and nothing changes. Mains start with the learnings to 4/3 and the 800k. Only one account can have a 'main'. This should stop some of CCP's concerns with ppl starting new accounts just to get quick and dirty advantages. It would also allow new players to get into it right away. But still leave off that 4th level of advanced learning for them to decide if they want or not. Part two Instead of getting rid of learnings after this first part, why not expand them? Add another set of learnings into the mix where everyone would be able to reduce the training times a bit further. This would allow everyone to train a bit faster and in the story line sort of way the governments and corps would probably want to be able to produce deadlier pilots faster anyway. So we'd have basic learnings, advanced learnings and maybe, complicated learnings? Add to that Advanced learning skill and Genius Learning skill (upgraded versions of the learning skill). This would allow some newer players to quickly get into the skills needed for the better items. The vets already are in them, so they could maybe cross train or find other ways to enjoy the new skills. Part Three New players or newbies/n00bs are indeed stuck behind a wall and a hard spot in a way. They have to learn the game and try to 'catch-up' to the rest of us that have in some instances been around since beta. How is this possible? Why not introduce a New player corp implant set this set would only be available in the starter corp. The first set would come after the completion of maybe a multi-step story line mission series that could explain ALOT about EVE that is hard to make players learn currently. This would work like a halo set upon a new players learnings. So the set would give maybe +3 or +4 to each stat, but the entire set would give a 15% to 25% bonus to the entire set as well as the cumulative stats of the player. So a player with say 17 will, and the +3 in would have 20 willpower. The set would give 25% bonus making that a 25 BUT ONLY AS LONG AS THEY STAY IN THE STARTER CORP. It could get more complicated with learning, advanced and complicated learnings of course. But it would give players a quick way to catch up, not harm the 'vets', bring in new players YET still force them to learn patience and the game, thus 'FPS morons' as one player put it would be put off anyway. Part Four* This one would be more case by case basis. But maybe general category skill reducing skills. Like say "Electronics learn" each level would reduce all skill training times in the Electronics tab by .5% to 1%. This would let some people try to specialize further, or make up for a bad choice in their character creation. It is an investment skill to be sure, but might let some of the younger players catch up. End. I'm one of those weirdo's who MAXED out the learnings knowing they were going to take 3 years to pay off. EVE is a game of patience and planning. I'm not sure taking out learnings would keep EVE in the niche it fills. New MMO players go to WoW, medium/casual MMO players go to conan, freaky MMO player go to Hello Kitty Adventure island, and Experienced MMO players gravitate to EVE. Hope this helped, tried to take the stance of 'keeping it fair for the most ppl possible' compared to the suggestions I've seen so far. Atlas Head Diplomat CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries ~~Carebear~~ Pvper?!?!?
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:51:00 - [144] I have mixed feelings about this. In the end I do not support this at all. It is a 'CHOICE' to train those, not a 'REQUIREMENT' like everyone says they are.
Master ore	Posted - 2008.07.20 20:18:00 - [145] If you wish to do away with learning skills why not do away with attribute implants as well, after all they give a training time advantage to players who have the isk to buy them or the time to spare running missions for the LP,s to obtain them. The current learning skills do not really affect the length of time players take to get into cruisers from frigs ect as some make out, it depends upon how wisely a player trains his character. A new player can get to level 3 missions and running them successfully solo in about a week, and still train thier learning skills.
Josemite	Posted - 2008.07.20 22:26:00 - [146] Agree, I hated spending the few weeks to train up my learning skills as I wasn't really advancing at all. People mention the ability to specialize your character more, but 90% of players will just train to 4/4 or 5/4 across the board anyways (with the possible exception of charisma). I am in big support of a re-evaluation of learning skills, with my preferred solution being a removal of the skills with a SP reimbursement.
Xyzibit Caldari New-Roots	Posted - 2008.07.23 06:14:00 - [147] not supported since removing learnings is not an option for me... yes there is an issue with learning skills but thats not the solution! training the adv. learnings to level 5 for example takes ages and that only pays off if you want to play eve for several years. yes i am playing eve for a very long time now and when i entered the game everyone was laughing at me because i trained all my learning skills to level 5 (by that time there were no adv. learning skills). well training the learning skills up to level 4 is really not a big matter of time for a new player and after that its a matter of taste if you want to stay in eve for a long time of only for a few months. if you want to train them up to level 5 or not... you need check if you like the game and want to continue with playing it or not. i think the learnings are good as they are and i wont cry if ccp goes one step further and creats another batch of learning skills which are rank 5 ... its just another question of time if you want to train those up to level 5 then since you will need to play eve for ages then to make a profit out of that
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.23 12:14:00 - [148] The primary beneficiaries of "removing" (ie: free) learning skills would be older players who want alts. Whenever this topic pops up, it's the older players arguing for removal (cf: OP) and the newer players in the thread that are saying it's fine. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Marcus Gideon Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.07.23 12:34:00 - [149] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 23/07/2008 12:36:39 I completely agree that Learning Skills could go away. Some of you say they are an "option"... and that some players "may not choose to take them". And you'd be the same players who point and laugh when someone starts playing and says "Gee, I didn't train those yet. Should I?" Given the popularity of Evemon, and the near necessity of its usage... Any training plan that takes more than a few days will usually cause at least one Learning skill to be "suggested". And ANY Eve Players Guide you could find online will suggest the same thing. Learning 4/5, Basics 4, Advanced 4. So those "optional" skills are pretty much manditory, unless you want to spend months trying to get into a Cruiser. As it stands, I hear it takes about 22 years to get All Level V's. If someone didn't take the Learning tree... Right now, people make a new character... and then wonder what to do for the first month or so while they get their Learning up to par. So I'd agree, Implants could boost learning as they already do. But eliminate the Learning tree entirely. Either make the skills train at the fastest rate they could now... or leave them slow and let everyone suffer for it. "Awesome! I'm gonna crosstrain to another Frigate. Only have to wait 2 months before I can fly it!" --- Don't take my rantings personally. I may just be arguing the topic... unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
Molpadia Devaux Minmatar Excessive Intoxication	Posted - 2008.07.23 16:39:00 - [150] Oppose! Every time this topic comes up, I just laugh to myself. Eve is different from almost every game in the depths to which you can customize your character with the amount of skills available. More choice is good, less choice is bad. Has anyone put a gun to your head to make you train any skill? Some call learning skills a time sink, it is indeed the opposite allowing you to get far greater reward in return. This AM I created an alt, as close as I could remember to mirror my main. ( pretty close also there was a difference in only 2 starting skill levels). Both toons tuned to favor an industrial/research line of progression. I then loaded 2 Evemon plans for this toon, to train to fly ( fly only ) A mimatar Titan (Ragnorok). With no learning skills total training is 44 skills ( 12 unique) Total training time 581 d, 9h, 31m, 28 sec. Cost 5,964,570,000 isk. Wtih suggested learning skills 80 skills 22 unique 263 d, 6h, 1m, 12s cost 5,989,720,000. The plan calls for lvl5 in Learning, Spatial Awareness and Iron Will, Lvl 4 in Instant recall, Empathy, Focus,and Clarity lvl 3 in Eidetic Memory and logic and lvl2 in presence. If I start today, 23 July, I will finish August 21. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to see the advantage here. 318 days off training time, is in no way a time sink, It means you have to stop and think. Am I so stubborn that I hate learning skills so much, that I will forego almost a year of training so I can avoid that waste of my time? If you don't want to train learning, just don't do it. Claiming it to be a time sink is false. Giving everybody Atributes in exchange only dumbs down the game. Remember more choice is good. Right now someone that created a character at the same time as I did, and concentrated on combat related skills instead of the learning as I have, would easily kick my butt, In a couple months we will be even, and in 6 months, I gurantee, the butt kicking will be reversed.

J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.23 18:27:00 - [151] Edited by: J Kunjeh on 23/07/2008 18:29:58 Originally by: MotherMoon I've had this idea that learning skills are in a separate system in which they learn over time while other skills learn. Oooh...now that could be interesting. You wouldn't directly train learning skills, but they would advance depending on a number of factors (what skills you do have trained and to what levels, your total SP, etc.). That way they naturally, over time, advance as your character trains more and more skills. It's a more realistic way of doing it and it would mean you get to focus on training other skills while eventually earning the benefits of the learning skills.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.07.23 18:51:00 - [152] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 23/07/2008 18:52:11 Originally by: Molpadia Devaux Oppose! Every time this topic comes up, I just laugh to myself. Eve is different from almost every game in the depths to which you can customize your character with the amount of skills available. More choice is good, less choice is bad. Has anyone put a gun to your head to make you train any skill? Some call learning skills a time sink, it is indeed the opposite allowing you to get far greater reward in return. This AM I created an alt, as close as I could remember to mirror my main. ( pretty close also there was a difference in only 2 starting skill levels). Both toons tuned to favor an industrial/research line of progression. I then loaded 2 Evemon plans for this toon, to train to fly ( fly only ) A mimatar Titan (Ragnorok). With no learning skills total training is 44 skills ( 12 unique) Total training time 581 d, 9h, 31m, 28 sec. Cost 5,964,570,000 isk. Wtih suggested learning skills 80 skills 22 unique 263 d, 6h, 1m, 12s cost 5,989,720,000. The plan calls for lvl5 in Learning, Spatial Awareness and Iron Will, Lvl 4 in Instant recall, Empathy, Focus,and Clarity lvl 3 in Eidetic Memory and logic and lvl2 in presence. If I start today, 23 July, I will finish August 21. It does not take a Rocket Scientist to see the advantage here. 318 days off training time, is in no way a time sink, It means you have to stop and think. Am I so stubborn that I hate learning skills so much, that I will forego almost a year of training so I can avoid that waste of my time? If you don't want to train learning, just don't do it. Claiming it to be a time sink is false. Giving everybody Atributes in exchange only dumbs down the game. Remember more choice is good. Right now someone that created a character at the same time as I did, and concentrated on combat related skills instead of the learning as I have, would easily kick my butt, In a couple months we will be even, and in 6 months, I gurantee, the butt kicking will be reversed. That... was a fantastic tale. And I want to thank you for sharing it with us. However... I heard a quote in a thread a while back, and it's stuck with me since. "People don't want Variety. They want THE BEST." So saying "Learning skills are just another option", while at the same time demonstrating that without them, a ship would take you A YEAR LONGER to get into... is laughable. Rookies just barely joining the game are being told by Rookie Chat, their own NPC Corp Chat, and any PC Corp they might join... that they may as well use their 2-3 weeks Trial time to get the Learning skills out of the way. Then when they start paying, they are ready to play the game. There is no way, other than psychotic delusions, that anyone could believe the Learning tree is anything other than MANDATORY. Now... if every skill trained at a set rate, with only Implants to boost, that would be different. If skills trained faster, as you accrued SP to reflect your own "practice" at studying, that would also be different. But saying "someone could skip those skills entirely, they'll just take forever to get anywhere useful"... --- Don't take my rantings personally. I may just be arguing the topic... unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word.
Penchance	Posted - 2008.07.24 10:02:00 - [153] Edited by: Penchance on 24/07/2008 10:03:09 Oppose. I can't believe people are so upset about this. When I first saw the learning skills I was about a few months into the game and thought "They increase your stats? Cool." Sure, training the basics to 5 and coughing up the cash for the advanceds was a pain but I happily accepted that that's just how things were, got on with it and did it. It took a while but I felt a great deal of achievement when I finished the lot. Originally by: Marcus Gideon Rookies just barely joining the game are being told by Rookie Chat, their own NPC Corp Chat, and any PC Corp they might join... that they may as well use their 2-3 weeks Trial time to get the Learning skills out of the way. Then when they start paying, they are ready to play the game. It sounds like the players are broken, rather than the skills. A good countermeasure would be to prevent learning skills from being trained on trial accounts. This would send a message that you should have fun during the trial and only train the learning skills if you plan on sticking around. The thing is, the skills are the perceived problem; the real problem is the playerbase which, while well-meaning, can be rather obsessive when they latch on to some mechanic that works well (something I'm guilty of too). If you want to help out (and I don't doubt that the point of this thread is to make new players' lives easier) then hammer home the message to the help channel regulars that learning skills are not something you should be thinking about until you can afford to buy all of the learning skillbooks in one go and still have enough to replace your ship if it dies. With regards to corps that set minimum barriers to entry such as SP and learning skills, do you really want to work for such a bunch of idiots? Since CCP have apparently declared that removing learning skills is impossible, this discussion really would be better put to use by finding ways to improve the skills so that they no longer serve an exclusively meta-gaming purpose. As an idea, how about each skill give a minor bonus to some operation. Empathy could reduce transaction tax by 1% per level; Analytical Mind might decrease mining cycle times. If these learning skills had bonuses such as those, how many people might look upon them more favourably? Just some food for thought. Penchance: CEO and great perish of battleships
Molpadia Devaux Minmatar Excessive Intoxication	Posted - 2008.07.24 11:21:00 - [154] My little alt creation test was to prove a couple of things. One, to show a toon created for one purpose, this case industry, was not permently gimped in combat, the learning skills helped moderate the lack of initial skills. Second, and most important, to prove learning skills are not a time sink! Anyone that sees almost 1 year of extra training for less than a month's investment as a time sink, needs to define time sink for me. It may be the same on the boards, but those I run into in the game, that are extremely opposed to learning skills seem to be the ones that want the uber-leetness NOW! The concept of larger benefit in the future as opposed to immediate reward seems incomprehensable to them. These are also the ones that as a group are less understanding of a play style other than PvP ganking. I am opposed to removing the learning skills completely and replacing them with attribute points, I am however in favor of a senseable restructuring of them. The more the merrier. I would like to see a plan that allows for more diversity. Lets take a couple of items as an example. Gunnery skill gives a 2% bonus to rate of fire per level; skills are Perception and willpower. Lets add a learning skill called deadeye. Deadeye gives a 2% bonus to the learning time for a set of combat related skills, including Gunnery. In addition deadeye grants a 10% bonus per level to the 2% that gunnery adds to rate of fire. That's a skill most of the objectors would find handy. For researchers we could add learning skills like Advanced Electronic Engineering that add bonusus to all the scientific fields with electronics 5 as a prerequsite. Bonus such as reduced research and invention time. Miners have Veldspar processing, gaining a bonus in the amount retreived at the processing plant. How about Veldspar Mining that grants a 5% bonus to cycle time when mining Veldspar? Haulers and curriers could get Packing methods, a skill that allows a 3% increase in cargo capacity. All these could, ofcourse, be introduced as regular skills, But if we add a level or 2 of attributes to the skill training, and a large amount of these specialized learning skills there would be an almost endless amount of diversity available. I would like to see them as targeted learning skills that is, they reduce the time needed to train the target skill, but also add to the value of the skill being trained. Using targeted learning skills would take the sting out of learning, for those that don't like it, because they would see benefit as soon as they finished the level. They would learn the target skill, a little bit faster, and a little bit better. And put a little bit more Pew in the pew-pew.
Maulos the united	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:00:00 - [155] Signed
Dev Rom Caldari Masterminds Industries	Posted - 2008.07.30 20:38:00 - [156] And if the learning skills would be some sort of boost skill (like drugs). Boost that fade away the more they are used, until no more sp remains and noone could use again. Some sort of "pool" to spend after char creation to speed up your knowledge. To newbies it would be a boost, more exiting esperience learning new skills, piloting more ships, using more weapons. To veterans, they don't need them more as they already KNOW the "how to".. as my 3M sp in learnig actually are: time boost. I am not your carpet ride, I am the sky..
Marcus Gideon Gallente Excessive Force	Posted - 2008.07.30 23:02:00 - [157] Originally by: Penchance Originally by: Marcus Gideon Rookies just barely joining the game are being told by Rookie Chat, their own NPC Corp Chat, and any PC Corp they might join... that they may as well use their 2-3 weeks Trial time to get the Learning skills out of the way. Then when they start paying, they are ready to play the game. It sounds like the players are broken, rather than the skills. A good countermeasure would be to prevent learning skills from being trained on trial accounts. This would send a message that you should have fun during the trial and only train the learning skills if you plan on sticking around. The thing is, the skills are the perceived problem; the real problem is the playerbase which, while well-meaning, can be rather obsessive when they latch on to some mechanic that works well (something I'm guilty of too). If you want to help out (and I don't doubt that the point of this thread is to make new players' lives easier) then hammer home the message to the help channel regulars that learning skills are not something you should be thinking about until you can afford to buy all of the learning skillbooks in one go and still have enough to replace your ship if it dies. If a player is only going to play the Trial, and never beyond that... then of course they wouldn't train Learning skills. They'd ask "Why do I need those? To learn faster? I don't plan on sticking around that long anyways." But the vast majority of players intend on sticking around for a while... at least until they get Suicide Ganked and Can Flipped a few times and get fed up with the attitude and atmosphere of PvP Pirates. But I digress... Players use the free playtime during Trial periods to get the Learning skills out of the way, because they are such a necessity to getting anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. And despite the repeated attempts, no one will ever raise a valid argument that Learning skills are still "optional". Only about as optional as drinking water and sleeping. Sure... you can go without it... but you'd probably regret it. Making ISK, and buying/replacing ships... those things happen all the time. But you can't do any of it until you learn the skills FIRST. That's why players reinforce that Learning skills may not be the ONLY thing you study, but they are a very high priority. I said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm FOR getting rid of the Learning tree. It's not "something people COULD do to make themselves better". It's "something people HAVE TO DO if they want to play the game sometime this YEAR." If getting rid of them means that EACH AND EVERY skill takes days to complete, then so be it. I don't imagine that CCP would do that to their playerbase, since a lot of folks would say "This takes too long" and leave for other MMOs. If that means that those Skill Points just evaporate completely, with no form of reimbursement, then so be it. Sure, some players might whine about time spent... but how would you rationalize spontaneously rearranging memories and training to support the redistribution afterwards? You went to sleep one night, and forgot "how to study faster"... and woke up the next morning knowing how to pilot a HAC instead? --- Don't take my ranting personally. I may just be arguing the topic, unless you're saying something stupid, and then I mean every word. "Players don't want Variety. They want THE BEST"
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.31 10:51:00 - [158] Telling people to get learning skills out of the way during the trial so they are 'ready to play the game' when the trial ends is pretty funny. Considering, you know, they'll be training skills the entire time they are playing the game. Also considering that, having only trained learning skills, they actually won't be ready to play the game, if we accept the belief that noobs start with too few skills to do anything. Anyone dumb enough to train learning skills so early they don't even have enough basic skills to enjoy the lower levels of the game deserves it. I'm not sure if this is even possible to do anymore with the noob SP boost, don't they start a stones throw from T2 frigates these days? Assuming they combat spec ofc. Anyone so impatient that they are unwilling to wait a month for an entire set of skills to finish training are going to be very disappointed when they find there are single L5s that take a month or more. - DesuSigs


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