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Dantes Revenge	Posted - 2008.05.29 13:54:00 - [1] I am posting with an alt for reasons that will become clear further down the post. Let's start with solo mining in lowsec: Get a full hold and warp back - Time loss equivalent to 50%. Get a buddy to haul - Income loss equivalent to 50%. Get an alt to haul - Dangerous as you have to alt+tab to get both out quick. In short, mining in lowsec was dangerous or non profitable at best to begin with. Nerfs in the last few years. Stacking nerfs on nano's and inertia stabs. Targettting penalties on warp stabs. This has led to poor performance of ships that have little defence. A few years ago, speed tanking was a possibility on indy's and barges. A couple of nano's and they could get out quickly in the even of a pirate entering the system. Inertia stabs allowed ships to get into warp quickly. A mix of the two helped an indy with a packaged barge in the hold get past gate camps, and that was before WTZ, but anyone with half a brain had instas anyway. This did not garauntee the safety of the ship but it helped. Someone with skills to lock quickly could still pop a barge or indy before it could warp. It always has been pointless to have a defence force since the barge would always be primary. Not because it was a high threat but simply because it would pop quickly, leaving only the defence to deal with. Now the reason for the defence being there has been popped, why did they bother at all? After the nerf: barges are slow and useless at getting out quick. Now, even with inertia stabs and nano's, they are too slow to even consider mining. Mining in anything less than a Retriever was time consuming and non-profitable. Indy's and even transport ships get popped before they've even left the starting mark into warp because they are so slow. Unless you have a full rack of warp stabs you are dead meat in seconds. On an indy, Warp Stabs are pointless since, with a full rack, you have to be within 1.5K of the can to target it for the tractor beam anyway. On a barge, anyone knows thay have only a short targetting range anyway so two stabs means thay have to be on top of the roid to mine from it. That puts you right in the middle of the roids and then you have a problem warping out... bumping around the roids surrounding you. So, for those of you whining about no targets in lowsec any more, remember that the whiners caused the nerfing of these three mods. That alone has turned lowsec from a pirates heaven into a barren wasteland. A few years ago, I used to mine in lowsec. Not any mining spot but right in the HQ system of the worst pirates in the sector. I had instas to every gate, I had ship fits that allowed me to get out fast and only lost only 1 indy (with my minerals and barge packaged in it) in all the time I was doing it. Oh well, that's how it goes. Now, with all the nerfing, that time has gone. I can't fit the ships to get out fast any more, I can't use the mods that allowed me to mine in the knowledge that anyone entering the system would have to work to catch me and we can't even get 1/10th of the safety now that we used to have. Even a noob can catch anyone mining in lowsec now. Half the reason for players not engaging bounty hunters in lowsec is because they are mostly noobs. It has become so easy for a noob to pop an indy or even a transport ship jumping or a barge in the belt that everyone is a pirate now. If you want more targets in lowsec, un-nerf these mods and find some other way to combat the nano BS. Now it has become so easy to blow up another ship that nobody even needs most of the skills any more to be a pirate. Oh, there's a barge... POP!. Oh there's a player in a BS... Run away! Run away!. I actually thought there was consequence in this game for your actions, not for wannabe pirates obviously.
Melor Rend	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Melor Rend on 29/05/2008 14:08:16 Boosting nano-mods to un-nerf mining is like... wow... can't find an example but i find it a terrible idea. I also think the main reason why nobody goes to lowsec has less to do with the risk and much more to do with the lack of a reward that justifies the risk. If you could make much more ISK in lowsec then in highsec then I'm sure much more people would be willing to take that risk but not as long as the risk is huge and the reward is not. And the reason why the pirates run away when outnumbered IS because of "consequences" mate... They are not willing to engage something if the consequences of that action may be death (without getting a good reward for the extra risk taken). Edit: Also, if nano mods are boosted then that will not only make your mining barge faster.. it's also gonna make every nano user out there way way faster (whether it's a BS or not) so in the end you are increasing the risk and not reducing it.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Dantes Revenge A few years ago, speed tanking was a possibility on indy's and barges. That doesn't even bother you at all? The biggest, slowest, sluggiest ships being able to speed tank? Estel Arador corp services (high-sec POS/JCs) just 120M isk!
PROTOCOL	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:19:00 - [4] Quote: Get an alt to haul - Dangerous as you have to alt+tab to get both out quick. How about gang warp? How about windowed mode? Quote: It always has been pointless to have a defence force since the barge would always be primary lol, who would you shoot first? Your defense can counter this with ewar or remote damps. If a pirate can't lock you he can't make you go boom. Eve is harsh, if you want to solo carebear you have alot of highsec to do so in, want some more reward, the risk goes up.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Dantes Revenge I am posting with an alt for reasons that will become clear further down the post. Let's start with solo mining in lowsec: Get a full hold and warp back - Time loss equivalent to 50%. Different to Hisec how? Get a buddy to haul - Income loss equivalent to 50%. Different to Hisec how? Get an alt to haul - Dangerous as you have to alt+tab to get both out quick. In short, mining in lowsec was dangerous or non profitable at best to begin with. Welcome to Eve, our massively MULTIPLAYER online game. Lowsec is quite rewarding if you know where to go, most of it is dead save the major choke points, I can go 20 jumps without seeing another soul. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Drizit	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Dantes Revenge A few years ago, speed tanking was a possibility on indy's and barges. That doesn't even bother you at all? The biggest, slowest, sluggiest ships being able to speed tank? Remember that they are practically unarmed ships. No it doesn't bother me. @Melor Rend: A nano BS was not as much of a risk. Since the same fitting can get a barge or an indy out quick. Like I said, I used to do it a lot pre-nerf and the nano BS was a minimal risk then. The risk of lowsec mining has increased more than 10 fold since those nerfs. It used to be relatively viable to mine in lowsec, given the occasional loss. Now, it's poor pickings compared to the vastly increased risk. It never was that much better than highsec in terms of reward but at least the risk was far smaller than it is now. -- Freighters need a tank
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Dantes Revenge I am posting with an alt for reasons that will become clear further down the post. . . I actually thought there was consequence in this game for your actions, not for wannabe pirates obviously. Is that where it becomes clear that you're not a fan of taking consequences for your actions? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Kaar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:35:00 - [8] If you dont have the balls to express your opinion with your main then im not going to read it. --- ---
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Dantes Revenge A few years ago, speed tanking was a possibility on indy's and barges. That doesn't even bother you at all? The biggest, slowest, sluggiest ships being able to speed tank? I think he does not mean speedtanking but rather the ship could escape faster if bad guys showed. Still nowhere near fast enough to count as a speed"tank". -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:40:00 - [10] Originally by: PROTOCOL Quote: It always has been pointless to have a defence force since the barge would always be primary lol, who would you shoot first? Your defense can counter this with ewar or remote damps. If a pirate can't lock you he can't make you go boom. The issue here is your guards take a sec hit to be proactive in the barge's defense. And my past experiences with low sec mining (admittedly awhile ago now) were that pirates would almost always tag the miner/hauler first despite guards then either face the guards or leave depending on their chances there. In some cases the guards were too much and the pirates would swing in and blow cans up for fun and swing out as just generic harassment. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Jawas	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Kaar If you dont have the balls to express your opinion with your main then im not going to read it. Probably because I'm not stupid enough to let the pirates reading these forums know who I am and that I'm mining right in the middle of their HQ system. I still do it occasionally since the nerfs meant I couldn't get my ships out. But now, I only go online to do it when there's few people on which isn't often. -- Sig design in training: Remaining time 30 years 20 days, 4 hours, 10 mins, 15 seconds.
Bloody Puppy Onorata Societa	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:41:00 - [12] Edited by: Bloody Puppy on 29/05/2008 14:41:29 Originally by: Kaar If you dont have the balls to express your opinion with your main then im not going to read it. OMG you are te genius who first used the nanophoon hail to Kaar ------------------------------------------------- The puppy -- yarr WHY EVERYONE LOVES ME BUT NOONE UNDERSTAND ME? Albert Heinstein
Blind Jhon Alenia psy departement	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Jawas Originally by: Kaar If you dont have the balls to express your opinion with your main then im not going to read it. Probably because I'm not stupid enough to let the pirates reading these forums know who I am and that I'm mining right in the middle of their HQ system. I still do it occasionally since the nerfs meant I couldn't get my ships out. But now, I only go online to do it when there's few people on which isn't often. hahahahaah someone just S C R E W E D his main dantes revenge jawas..... now check local more ofter man sig removed, it broke our forums - Mitnal
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:47:00 - [14] I agree that mining barges and industrials could use a bit of a boost, but un-nerfing nano modules is not going to get the results that you want. It seems interesting that while you cite the unintended consequences of the nano nerf as a reason for making lowsec life difficult, you fail to consider the unintended consequences of your own ideas. Thankfully, CCP is usually better at it than the average player. If you want to make industrial ships: 1. Add a new module that reduces signature radius at the expense of sensor range/targeting resolution 2. Boost blockade runners' and mining barges' cargobay a bit 3. Create more means by which players can defend other ships from being ganked (not just destroy the ganker) Non-combat players avoid lowsec because of high risk, not low rewards. Reduce the risk of non-combat players and they will be more willing to live in low-sec. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tojo Chigurh	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:49:00 - [15] Also the basic math of mining lowsec ore is that with the amount of minerals obtained through simply reprocessing mission/ratting loot, lowsec ore generates less isk/m3/hour than plain ol' veldspar.
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Ghengis Tia on 29/05/2008 14:51:12 I can mine for 2 four-hour shifts in high-sec and have enough Isk to buy the Megacyte and Zydrine to build any battleship. All the other minerals are available from ores in high-sec, so the only reason to mine in low-sec is for megacyte and zydrine. I've contributed enough ships to low-sec pirates to never make the risk worth the reward. It like going to big cities and hanging out in the rough parts of town until you get mugged. Not a question of if, just when. If you want to sell low-sec, then just hire some political P/R flack to put some lipstick on that pig. Until then, the 'rats can have it.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:52:00 - [17] making low sec too profitable is a bad idea: it'll give a lot of money to pirate alts, making them able to outclass the low sec noobs even more, and no one else.
Dantes Revenge	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Blind Jhon hahahahaah someone just S C R E W E D his main dantes revenge jawas..... edit anyways <3 montecristo now check local more ofter man An account has 3 characters, 1 main and two alts Also, there is the possibility of more than one account. I'm not THAT dumb.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.05.29 14:57:00 - [19] No no no, it's "How CCP SAVED low sec." Nobody wants stupid miners to hang around in low sec. Who cares about mining?!? It's the most boring thing in the world. Do missions, trade, or use piracy as your income source, DON'T MINE !!! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Dantes Revenge	Posted - 2008.05.29 15:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Madla Mafia No no no, it's "How CCP SAVED low sec." Nobody wants stupid miners to hang around in low sec. Who cares about mining?!? It's the most boring thing in the world. Do missions, trade, or use piracy as your income source, DON'T MINE !!! Ok, us industrials won't mine any more... So who builds your ships? Where do the minerals come from? When you lose your next ship and can't buy another, you'll be asking CCP to put slots on pods Mission running isn't as profitable as people think. Trading is far too competetive to make a regular profit. Piracy Where are your targets when there's nobody in lowsec?
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2008.05.29 15:20:00 - [21] Edited by: Madla Mafia on 29/05/2008 15:20:28 Originally by: Dantes Revenge Ok, us industrials won't mine any more... So who builds your ships? Stay in empire and mine/build my ships. You don't want to see your hooker strolling around in your own neighborhood. Originally by: Dantes Revenge Mission running isn't as profitable as people think. Do you do missions? Salvage ftw! Originally by: Dantes Revenge Where are your targets when there's nobody in lowsec? I didn't say "keep everyone" out of low sec, only miners. Shooting miners is no fun, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Low-sec is for PvP'ing. That's why it is "allowed" there without CONCORD intervention. Miners: "High-sec -->"
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.05.29 16:00:00 - [22] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 29/05/2008 16:02:14 Lowsec is and will continue to be underutilized because it has all the dangers of 0.0 without ANY of the benefits. Once you are in lowsec, might as well go the rest of the way. Besides, mining in lowsec is a lot less profitable than 0.0, and probably LESS profitable than highsec due to the much, MUCH higher overhead. I suspect now that FW is here, and the aim is to move noobs into lowsec, that CCP is going to make it "safer". Which I disagree with. The OP has a point, that industrials and barges should be able to be fitted in such a way as to operate in hazardous areas. I previously suggested a new class of barge that would have better defenses and perhaps stealth capability in exchange for yields that would fall below what T1 mining barges can do now. My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.05.29 16:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Faife making low sec too profitable is a bad idea: it'll give a lot of money to pirate alts, making them able to outclass the low sec noobs even more, and no one else. O RLY? Maybe it will encourage mid size Empire corporations who can't cope with 0.0 into Lowsec and stand up for themselves when the pirates try and kick sand in their face. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.05.29 16:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Originally by: Faife making low sec too profitable is a bad idea: it'll give a lot of money to pirate alts, making them able to outclass the low sec noobs even more, and no one else. O RLY? Maybe it will encourage mid size Empire corporations who can't cope with 0.0 into Lowsec and stand up for themselves when the pirates try and kick sand in their face. I really think that it's less a matter of reward and much more a matter of risk and effort. Most carebears are highly risk-adverse, much more than they are pro-reward. Increasing the reward won't have much of an effect on the carebear population, reducing the risk will. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Zaknussem The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.05.29 16:46:00 - [25] Dumb idea of the day, but...have you tried mining in a BS? The Rokh, The Dominix and the Apocalypse (to name examples) can give pretty good Mining Yields and don't pop so easily as a Barge. They mine better than a Retriever, but not as good as a Covetor.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.05.29 17:24:00 - [26] Low-sec is profitable if you have a corporation or alliance inhabiting an area and defending it with a constant presence. And if you prefer ninja-mining, well that's why there's the Rorqual. ---------------- [insert signature here]
Kolwrath Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.05.29 17:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Kolwrath on 29/05/2008 17:47:13 Originally by: Tarminic Non-combat players avoid lowsec because of high risk, not low rewards. Reduce the risk of non-combat players and they will be more willing to live in low-sec. Yeah thats about right. I would also like to mention that the Drone regions nerfed Lowsec alot. How you ask? well lowsec minig used to be one of the few ways to get Zydrine, and because of this lowsec mining was actually profitable relative to highsec. Once the Drone regions came out, Zydrine prices collapsed and lowsec mining profits went through the floor. Zydrine used to be around 4k a unit ... no word of a lie, now they are what 2k at best? A boost to mining barge cargo, and industrials holds would help alot. However the risk of mining in lowsec, in a barge, would still be way to high. They have no survivability. Originally by: Chaos Space Marines Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
Torze Legion Of The Void	Posted - 2008.05.29 18:14:00 - [28] Normally, I would skip past a thread like this and think..oh god, more whining. However, there was something the OP wrote that got me thinking. No, I don't think that boosting nano's is a good idea. However, he is right about the barges being targeted first because they are easier to pop. That seems wrong to me. I mean, think about it..a barge is like a big, slow cargo ship that happens to mine. A ship that isn't designed for combat so, therefore wouldn't need much manuverablity. It would however need really really thick armor plates. I propose that a barge should be able to survive the first alpha strikes of a 'normal' lo-sec pirate strike. This could be done fairly easily without giving an unfair advantage to someone silly enough to solo mine in lo-sec space. You could say, give 20k armor to the barge. It would be quite a damage buff yes but, really think about it. For someone out there who is solo..it would mean nothing. The pirates would still warp scramble you and then lay the smack down. If however you had a defense team in place..it would give them some time to buy some time for the barge to escape via destroying the pirates or at least jamming them.
Hammerfail CEO Hammerfail Industries	Posted - 2008.05.29 18:16:00 - [29] Hammerfail Industries can provide top notch protection services to low sec miners at reasonable rates, contact me in game.
JamnOne	Posted - 2008.05.29 18:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Jawas Originally by: Kaar If you dont have the balls to express your opinion with your main then im not going to read it. Probably because I'm not stupid enough to let the pirates reading these forums know who I am and that I'm mining right in the middle of their HQ system. I still do it occasionally since the nerfs meant I couldn't get my ships out. But now, I only go online to do it when there's few people on which isn't often. So is this your main or was the OP your main? ________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler So, it's all my fault. Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!

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