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tweaky boson
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.05 20:06:00 -
[31]
A max-skilled falcon pilot can take up to (depending on target racial composition) 5 ships out of a fight at a time from 150km... and while it may be chance based, chances are very good that he will jam you. By contrast, a max-skilled arazu pilot can take 1 maybe 2 ships out of fight from 50km. Sorry this is just not a level playing field compared to other ship classes which are infinitely more balanced.
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Sitthh
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Posted - 2008.06.05 20:26:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: tweaky boson
A max-skilled falcon pilot can take up to (depending on target racial composition) 5 ships out of a fight at a time from 150km... and while it may be chance based, chances are very good that he will jam you. By contrast, a max-skilled arazu pilot can take 1 maybe 2 ships out of fight from 50km. Sorry this is just not a level playing field compared to other ship classes which are infinitely more balanced.
Yup...the ships not fittin eccm will be jammed you know why...b/c they don't know how to adapt. If you dont adapt you deserve to die. Plz dont whine if your not considering the counters to any module/ship.
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Wayward Hero
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Posted - 2008.06.05 21:24:00 -
[33]
The only buff I see needed to Damps is to Falloff.
Give damps somewhere around 150km falloff with skills. You could then more reliably break the locks of opponents at longer ranges, but with a chance based element like ECM anywhere beyond 45km.
Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively.
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Ay'Not Sivad
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.06.05 21:52:00 -
[34]
i never did understand people's constant bickering about RSD's. To me pre-trinity they were one of the most balanced e-war modules in game. so what if i can't lock past 12km's, all i have to do is tap my micro and i'm within range of that lachesis/arazu before they can run a second damp cycle, bump them so you have time to lock them before they warp out, and you're home free.
but of course, let's leave ECM the way it is, a module that makes almost ANY ship on the battlefield completely worthless no matter what he/she does. of course you can fit ECCM, but that's a mid-slot most ships don't have, and even when it is fit, you ARE still going to get jammed. i've seen carriers with 2x ECCM fit nearly perma-jammed by a falcon from 180km's away, obviously the falcon pilot got lucky, but the point still stands.
everything in eve is based around math, or some kind of logical motivater behind the reasoning for modules to work, but then you take a look at ECM and you see a chance-based module within a math-based game. and don't bring up the notion that ecm is based around math, you know what i mean(a dice roll, versus ''i'm-this-far-away-so-i-do-this-much-damage'').
i seriously think they should put sensor damps back to the way they used to be, hell, they should remove scripts all together(a completely stupid idea in my eyes). CCP has just been making some epically horrible decisions lately in the past few patches. what thing is CCP going to nerf next that didn't need it, or they nerf it wrong(*cough* essentially removing NOS from the game)
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Zarstrax
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:07:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Wayward Hero
Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively.
They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine.
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Ruciza
The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:11:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ruciza on 05/06/2008 22:11:30
Originally by: Zarstrax
Originally by: Wayward Hero
Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively.
They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine.
Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:34:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ruciza
Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
No, they don't.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.05 23:18:00 -
[38]
Gallente recons are worthless against other recons since reconships have a verry long base locking range, and that problems gets magnified by the fact the slotlayout on both arent really suited to fit for a decent nanotank (you need at least 3 damps now where you could use 2 before the dampnerf). And regarding the scram range.....heavy dictors can do it better.
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Kirja
R.u.S.H.
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.06 06:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
If you insist that the more a ship is used, the better it must be, do you then agree that the raven is the best battelship out there ?
You logic is flawed. I used killboards of experienced PvP entities for a reason. Go on and check which BSs are used by those entities in fleet operations. Ravens will be far behind Minmatar, Amarr and Gallente.
In other word belt ganked Raven losses has nothing to do with PvP
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Illyria Ambri
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.06 08:23:00 -
[40]
RSD's mere nerfed because every ship they were fitted on could damp very well compared to having any other ecm fitted.
The gallente recons were fine.. but the attempt to stop everyone from fitting damps resulted in the nerfing of the recons that used them also.
The nerf succeeded in stopping everyone from fitting them on non recons..
The side effect of killing the gallente recons was a side effect that needs to be restored
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This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them? |
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mentalmonkey
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Posted - 2008.06.06 08:41:00 -
[41]
Despite being a high skilled Celestis pilot and nearly able to fly Gallente recons I had to train and buy BBs and Scorps just to be usefull to my corp - which even with lower skills are FAR more effective in almost any combat environment.
The Damp nerf was justified, but the recons need bonuses to counteract it to bring them back to thier old level of effectiveness. You only have to look at the market to see how unpopular they are, in Essance they are half the price of the Caldari recons.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 12:37:00 -
[42]
Kirja, like most of the negative posts I see on these forums you are falling into the trap of taking 1 situation in eve (fleet battles at range) and assuming that that is the only area that needs to be balanced.
The Falcon/Rook are better than the Gallente recons in fleet and noone is arguing with that. If you want to jam multiple ships in a fleet like this you need to use a Falcon/Rook. The Arazu is still usable, however, and probably the second best in this role.
If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon. If you want to catch nanos you need minnie recons and if you want to suck cap and disrupt turrets then you need an amarr one.
The argument that you are using is the same as saying that a Thorax is useless because it cannot snipe like a Moa in fleets - you are simple using the wrong tool for the job.
If the Arazu gets changed as you would like then it would be a ship with good combat abilities, extra long tackling, the most powerful ewar that can fly fast and warp when cloaked. Do I need to say more? Its not sounding useless to me.
Your argument that only people that have flown 100 hours + in an Arazu can post is absurd. It would hardly make for a balanced discussion to have only Arazu fanboys posting.
Your posts about killboards are simply bizarre.
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Kirja
R.u.S.H.
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Birkinz
Your argument that only people that have flown 100 hours + in an Arazu can post is absurd. It would hardly make for a balanced discussion to have only Arazu fanboys posting.
Your posts about killboards are simply bizarre.
The only argument that i used is that only people with experience flying any particular ship can discuss whether this ship is fine or not. Unless you have practical experience all you pretty theories are just that... your pretty yet empty theories.
I can fly caldari and gallente recons on my main and minmatar on my alt. So there is little point to bring "fanboy" word into discussion.
You try to imagine some abstract fairy tale situation where Arazu is a worthy ship to fly. Well i agree that such fairy tale situation may exists. But in reality gallente recons have no role where they excel. Disruptor range bonus is obsolete in the age of inties going 7k+ that have the very same bonus as Arazu doesa and im not even talking about dictors and heavy dictors that will be more welcomed than Arazu in any gang.
Dampening bonus is useless as well... I am not going to bother bring any math to you as there is a huge amount of deep, well constructed posts on this topic already.
To finish with this useless discussion... Arazu or Lachesis were never overpowered, they were fine specialized ships with a distinctive flavor. But thanks to the whines of fairy tale theorists like yourself who have never flown it they were nerfed into oblivion.
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Birkinz
If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon.
Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:18:00 -
[45]
I suggest you go back to those killboards that you are so fond of where I am sure you will be able to reports that noone ever kills anything in an Arazu.
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Kirja
R.u.S.H.
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Birkinz
I suggest you go back to those killboards that you are so fond of where I am sure you will be able to reports that noone ever kills anything in an Arazu.
I suggest you go back to those killboards that im so fond off and compare kill participations made by Rapiers and Falcons vs kill participation made by Arazus. And make some logical conclusions in your head.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:31:00 -
[47]
Quote:
Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor.
The point is that you need a Falcon and a HIC to to do it better and an Arazu can do both things at once. It is a recurring theme that Gallente ships do well solo and this also fits in with the gallente being individualists whilst caldari are more gang orientated.
The obvious flipside is that a Falcon/Rook cannot tackle or tank and have no drones or DPS as I have said several times. If you want the Arazu to damp as well as a Falcon jams then that is fine but it would have to be balanced by losing its drones, its low slots and some of its guns.
This would be a step backwards in my opinion as it would mean two falcons with different skins instead of two ships with completely different flavours.
These arguments can be used on anything. Yes interceptors can tackle at range and speed tank, but they cant cloak and DPS. Yes HICs can tackle and tank but they too cannot cloak.
The Arazu can be used with a Black ops unlike the others mentioned. Ultimately, although these ships have superficial similarities they also have major differences and that is the beauty of EVE.
Lots of ships with lots of possible fittings that intelligent players can use as they see fit. The certainly shouldn't all do the same thing.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:35:00 -
[48]
Why dont you just fly a Falcon?
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Damned Force
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:37:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Damned Force on 06/06/2008 13:36:50
Originally by: Darth Felin
Originally by: Birkinz
If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon.
Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor.
Thats a bad arument... :(
So because the cerberus have worst damage than the thorax and slover than the vagabon it needs a major boost?
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2008.06.06 13:45:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Darth Felin on 06/06/2008 13:45:21
Originally by: Damned Force
Thats a bad arument... :(
So because the cerberus have worst damage than the thorax and slover than the vagabon it needs a major boost?
Don't troll please.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:25:00 -
[51]
Quote:
yea I can agree with it - the problem as I see it an Arazu have an extremly narrow spot of usage, and even then it don't excel at role. Lachetis is in even worse condition.
Your post was very balanced. In reference to the above quote, I think they can be used in combination with other ships extemely well.
The obvious one would be to pair one with a falcon using lock time scripts. Others could be using them in cloaking gangs with rapiers to tackle and web unexpectedly from long range.
I think an arazu using lock time scripts and ecm drones (either their own or other peoples) would also be useful.
These are just a few examples of when I have wanted an Arazu in my gang, I am sure there are lots more.
The specific grievence here is about Fleet battles and my view is that the Arazu should not be as good as the Falcon in this situation.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:01:00 -
[52]
I fully agree with the OP. Other than the Falcon, ECM has not been buffed in any significant way since I've been playing the game that I am aware of and yet ECM and the Falcon specifically is one of the most complained about ships in the game. In my book, the Falcon is the only Targeting inhibiting ship in the game that has any real merit in most common circumstances. Indeed, the best use of a Gallente recon these days is supporting a falcon by using lock time scripts on targets the falcon jams, further ensuring electronic superiority over a handful of targets. Given that electronic warfare is a combat support role, this relegates Sensor Dampning to a combat support support role - and any ship that relies on supporting a support ship to be of any real use in most situations is clearly broken.
But the nerf hammer did come down hard for a reason. Sensor damps were the single most effective form of EWAR in the game - and many ships would find a way to slap a few of them on (In my early days in a Caracal I'd use three sensor damps for example). Still, I believe there is room for boosting the nearly useless dampner to a point where it is still incredibly useful on specialized platforms in much the same way that ECM is only really useful on specialized platforms.
The biggest difference between Dampners and ECM is the range - falcons and other ECM ships will almost always operate at ranges well over 120km - Damp ships must stay far closer. So one boost is to change the ship bonuses and module to allow a similar (160 km or so) maximum damp range. But since ECM is change based and Damps are not, to allow for a balance something needs to go on the damps. The easiest solution is to ensure that at the ranges an ECM ship of a certain class operates at (EAF, cruiser, Recon and Black Ops (If the gallente Black ops even gets a bonus - I assume it does but I've never looked)) a Damp ship can also operate at in falloff.
The second issue points to dampning strength - where it was once possible to damp sensors down to point blank range, most pilots are now forced to settle for damping down to 20 or so KM (the most reasonable average for a standard fleet battleship which will almost certainly have a sensor booster loaded). Given the effectivness of dampners was cut down to about a third, boosting it's power in a single function back to it's pre nerf days is not uncalled for.
Of course, being able to operate at fleet ranges means that Gallente pilots actually have a reason to show up in a recon to fleet fights (it isn't grand choice but at least there is a reason) - as such, a power boost may not be necessary. Likewise, a power boost would increase the effecience of the Gallente recon in smaller scale combat, an area where gallente ships already excell. I would suggest taking the boosts one step at a time with a few months in between - first boosting range and then power if necessary.
This would solve the most troubling issues of Sensor Dampning and would give gallente pilots a good reason to dust off their electronic superiorty vessels.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ruciza
Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
No, they don't.
-Liang
Yes, they do.
-Not Liang
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:11:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ruciza
Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
No, they don't.
-Liang
Yes, they do.
-Not Liang
I have to agree with Liang. Most of the time a Gallente recon is not going to be able to get close enough to the falcon the damp it. Inability to engage at a Falcon's native range means that the Gallente ship is always having to struggle uphill to get close.
Now IF the gallente recon manages to get close enough then yes, it CAN neutralize the falcon. Of course, had the falcon pilot been given time to prepare the battelfield in advance and place multiple grid warp points then the victory for the Gallente pilot will be short lived.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:22:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Birkinz on 06/06/2008 15:26:29
Quote:
I have to agree with Liang. Most of the time a Gallente recon is not going to be able to get close enough to the falcon the damp it. Inability to engage at a Falcon's native range means that the Gallente ship is always having to struggle uphill to get close.
Would it be possible for an Arazu to move into range cloaked and then target all the Falcons and damp them?
Quote:
The biggest difference between Dampners and ECM is the range - falcons and other ECM ships will almost always operate at ranges well over 120km - Damp ships must stay far closer. So one boost is to change the ship bonuses and module to allow a similar (160 km or so) maximum damp range. But since ECM is change based and Damps are not, to allow for a balance something needs to go on the damps. The easiest solution is to ensure that at the ranges an ECM ship of a certain class operates at (EAF, cruiser, Recon and Black Ops (If the gallente Black ops even gets a bonus - I assume it does but I've never looked)) a Damp ship can also operate at in falloff.
I think this is essentially right. If there isn't a chance based element and they have the same range then damps would be too powerfull. Especially given the fact that the Arazu is more powerful then a Falcon up close. You would simply revers the current situation and the Falcon would be obsolete again.
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Elirel
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:51:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Elirel on 06/06/2008 15:52:44
Originally by: Birkinz
Would it be possible for an Arazu to move into range cloaked and then target all the Falcons and damp them?
No, because Falcon is cloaked.
Originally by: Birkinz
Also ECCM really does help against ECM and I DO fly Caldari ewar boats.
Here. This one explains your "Gallente Recons" are fine.
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Birkinz
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:08:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Here. This one explains your "Gallente Recons" are fine.
Not really, and that is a pretty worthless reply. What is shows is that I do fly some of the ships that we are talking about here and I understand the problems of flying the ECM boats that have been played down in this thread.
Again and for the last time, the Falcon is better than the Arazu in ranged fleet fights and this is correct. If you wish to have more powerful damps on the Arazu then that is fine but the only way I can see to balance then would be to completely nerf every other aspect of the ship just like the falcon.
Another possible balance would be to remove all ECM mods from the game, make a sngle multispec with similar range to damps that goes in a low slot. Give the blackbird, rook and falcon big dronebays, more launchers and anothe bonus to something like scrambling or neuting.
But again this would be a step back in terms of variety.
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Gypsio III
Bambooule
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:21:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Now IF the gallente recon manages to get close enough then yes, it CAN neutralize the falcon. Of course, had the falcon pilot been given time to prepare the battelfield in advance and place multiple grid warp points then the victory for the Gallente pilot will be short lived.
It's not that hard to get close enough, for a Recon going at 3 km/s or so - and this disregards the tactic of using an interceptor as a warp-in point. In a worst-case scenario, the Falcon is 200 km away from your BS. Let's say that that's where the Recon starts as well. Assuming no sensor booster, the Recon has a targeting range of 140 km or so, with RSDs that have 45 km optimal and 90 km falloff. Yeah, I know, skills at V, heh.
So you need 60 km to get into targeting range - that takes, say, 25-30 seconds to get there and lock the Falcon. The RSDs are deep in falloff, but since the Falcon is 200 km from his primary jamming targets, you only need a single hit with a damp to protect your main gang. At 140 km and with 3 RSDs, that gives you about a 0.875 chance of damping him out from the main fight. Not bad at all.
Of course, the Falcon can still target and jam the Recon. But Recons are tough enough to jam at the best of times, and with an ECCM, and assuming a normal spread of racial ECMs, the chances are that if the Falcon is jamming the Recon, he's not jamming much else.
And it won't just stop at 140 km. 84 km closer - just another 30 seconds - and you're within overheated scram range, with drones bearing down on him. Of course, the Falcon may have just warped out before all this - but then he won't be jamming anyone.
The Gallente Recons are the ship I really, really hate seeing when I'm in my Falcon.
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Stoffl
LFC
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:39:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Stoffl on 06/06/2008 16:43:42
Originally by: Ruciza
Edited by: Ruciza on 05/06/2008 22:11:30
Originally by: Zarstrax
Originally by: Wayward Hero
Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively.
They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine.
Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
rofl....right, damps we're never overpowered, and that's the reason why nearly every PVP-fit had one or two damps on.
Like ECM Multispectrals we're never overpowered and the FOTM pvp mod for medslots on any ship.
First, i wont say Gallente recons and force recons especially are all balanced out, we all know falcons and rapiers are FOTM due to this.
I know ppl keep whining endlessly to get their favourite toys buffed, but cmon, at least try to be reasonable, else CCP will just :facepalm: at suggestion-threads like this. 
Oh and personally i think it's very funny that gallente recon pilots never seem to mention the scrambling bonus....the Pilgrim is the only RLY broken force-recon.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gypsio III
The Gallente Recons are the ship I really, really hate seeing when I'm in my Falcon.
For me, it's the curse. It's easy to jam the Arazu at some point before his pathetic DPS kills you - the Curse caps you out and you can't jam him.
Either way, the Arazu is (at best) a poor "counter" to the Falcon, especially if the Falcon pilot had any time to prepare the battle field.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
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