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Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:16:00 - [1] Note - This was originally going to be a long hateful letter to CCP. And honestly, I do hate you stupid fvcks if you don't manage to fix Gallente EWar boats. The letter would have been extremely amusing and/or offensive to the reader, and probably would have gotten more than a bit of reader support. However it would have ended up being moderated. Instead I opted for this rather blaise and dull rendition of facts that have already been repeated ad naseum, yet the devs fabulously refuse to address or comment on. Only response I've ever seen being "Gallente recons are working as intended." Really? Then the intention is for them to fail. Problems with Gallente EWar boats. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30% from pre-Trinity levels. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. If that BS has a sensor booster then it's about 35-40km. Now lets consider a gang fight with relatively equal numbers rather than a 5v1 gank. Your Gal recon pilot with his reduced damps can no longer rely on just one damp to fend off opponents. He has to use 2, possibly 3 if the opponent is close. Everytime he has to double up, or triple a damp, it makes it that much harder for him to fend off a second or third opponent. And sadly, given the pizz-poor tank on the recons, he doesn't exactly have time for his gangmates to save him. Furthermore, even though you have reduced your opponents' long range to mid-range, they still don't have a locktime reduction. This is the biggest impact to gang warfare. The reduced locktime gave your gangmates about 10-20 unanswered seconds of beating on your opponents. A lifesaver for your small tacklers, and a huge bonus for your damage dealers. Now they are unlikely to have that option - unless of course your recon pilot is feeling particularly suicidal. He normally has to fit lockrange reduction for survivability. On top of this, we have the drone change. Not a huge impact in gang fights as most people do not target drones. However, drones do make up a decent percentage of a Gal Recons damage. Since they retain shield damage on being scooped, they are a bit easier to kill these days. Not a significant impact in gangs mind you, but still there nonetheless. Now to add insult to injury, the Gal Recons' other primary function of long-range scramming has been replaced by cheaper or more effective ships. The new EAF is cheaper, faster locking, and still possess the questionable usefulness of damping. The second (and better) choice is an interceptor. Scram range of 30km, runs permanently, incredibly difficult to kill, and once again - cheaper. Basically, the Gal Recons have been emasculated. But I suspect that I'm not really telling any Gal Recon pilot with half of a brain anything they don't already know. The preferred solution would be to give the ships a script that gives 100% to both effects so they can work as they did pre-Trinity. Other option could be change the ship damp bonus to 7.5-10% per level. Still only gives one effect, but at least that effect is back where it should be. Taxman V: Back in Black
Ecky X Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:51:00 - [2] I agree with you, that Gallente recons are no longer awesome in close-range and small engagements. However, I can still see a LOT of utility in medium and long range engagements. One issue is that you rarely end up 40k away from someone, and when you do, you can't keep that range. IMO, a Gallente recon's biggest enemy is a nanoship.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.04 01:02:00 - [3] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 04/06/2008 01:05:10 i endorse this idea. Ty for a well written post too The biggest issue has been brought up here, the Arazu/lach's role of tackling has been completely filled by a myriad of ships that can do it better. And since its RSD's have been neutered, it kinda kills that. The only effective use of the RSD is to pair up with ECM users, and even so thats just a cherry on top for someone else, the benefit isn't there, bcuz you'd be more valuable in a bs, command ship, hac or w/e doing dmg. I really like having them having both effects again, but i find this unlikely to happen, so i'd suffice with the 7.5% or 10% for the ship boni. edit: Originally by: Ecky X I agree with you, that Gallente recons are no longer awesome in close-range and small engagements. However, I can still see a LOT of utility in medium and long range engagements. One issue is that you rarely end up 40k away from someone, and when you do, you can't keep that range. IMO, a Gallente recon's biggest enemy is a nanoship. the optimal range+fall off range of RSD's is so pathetic relative to the other EWar effecting targetting (ECM) that it's really ineffective imo. In a long range engagement your enemy is going to have a long enough range to be damped down to where they can still target you. And when in falloff of the RSD their effectiveness is lessened, worsening them further.
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.04 13:44:00 - [4] Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Damned Force In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine It is good to support such arguments with some maths/fits. Can you share how was you able to achive such performance reliable from 120-130km even with all 5 character?
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:55:00 - [6] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 05/06/2008 11:58:02 Originally by: Damned Force Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine ok i've had it with these f'ing idiots who ruin each and every valid thread about gallente recons with their misplaced nonsense and/or outright lies (wheither intentional or not). as usual an excellent valid post starts, good valid points are presented, then as allways some idiot walks in, tells ppl to stop whining and demonstrates just how little he knows about the topic at hand. whining is when the complaint is not justified and you just cry about it anyways, if that is not the case _it's not whining it's stating the obvious imbalance_ the gallente recons are NOT ok, they have been nuked by 30% to a point where they can barely damp one bs and the falcon can cycle jam like 3. they are NOT still powerful, they are not even powerful at all, all they have for tank is ewar and their ewar borderlines impotens atm. why, because damp usage was a problem on non dedicated dampener ships, so the module was nerfed, scripts were introduced, but what was forgotten? to compensate the dedicated ships that were perfectly balanced before the module nerf. most of the gal recon pilots who have replied to these threads in the past (to deaf ears apparently thus far) DO HAVE MAXED SKILLS.. and you idiots come and muck about every time with your bs saying everything is cool and to "stop whining" or that they are imbicils who don't know how to play eve.. but maybe take a look in the mirror next time. also the numbers you give are utter fracking nonsense. you have never flown a gal recon and if you say you have you'll forgive me for not believing you, you are an idiot in this regard so please stop posting till you get a f'ing clue. thanks.
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Damned Force Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine I've trained all related skills to LvL 4/5 and in combination with a Falcon and Scan-Res scripts loaded it somewhat works good. However you can't damp opposing ships in Long-Range-Sniper-Fleets, as you're in 95% falloff @ 120-130km. At this range your damps don't work 100% nor do they work in full effect. So you maybe can damp down a single ship in the opposing fleet, but then you could better be flying an additional Sniper-battleship yourself. Absolutely agreed on a bonus-buff from 5%/lvl to 7,5%/lvl. .
Edriahn Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:07:00 - [8] The most common fit fo arazu and lach these dayz is to shield tank it and nano the lowz. It's pathetic, only works for scout because of cloak.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:21:00 - [9] The problem with the gallente recons is that they were nerfed several times over at once. Damps were scripted and lossed some 30-40%(can't recall exact figure) of their former stat. Also they had two more major things working against them, the hics and falcons. The lachesis used to be a good boat to boost up and slap a few points on, it'd lock somewhat quickly and get several points on making sure the target did not get away, it could even use some(cheap mind you) faction scramblers to keep disruptor range but dash some 6-10 points on them. Having more than one point is rendered pointless due to hics. So this leaves them with damps. Damps are not bad mind you, they can bring an intie within webrange(using 1-3 damps). They can... annoy others. They can help blackbirds that are not entirely sure on what they're doing by giving them a few extra seconds cycle time. They can't really do **** to sniper ships due to the 45km optimal on damps. ,90km falloff is nice and all, but being at some 30% chance for your damps to hit and then remove 60% targeting render it somewhat useless seeing how a falcon could do the same with higher likelihood of completely disabling the ship. In short there's no real role the arazu and lachesis can do that another ship can't do better. Short of possibly support support which is a role narrow enough to be filled by one ship throughout the population of eve at a time. =) Parrots, commence! Postcount: 556448
Dreadpilot Roberts Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:24:00 - [10] They suck and fail badly. After training amarr/minmatarr cruiser 5 i decided to give gallente a go and trained gallente cruiser 5 ( for the ishtar ). Didn't even look at arazu/lachesis and most certainly didn't buy one because I flew them on test server first. Bottom line is, Pilgrim Arazu Lach FAIL at their recon role ( avoiding an opponent or 2-3 even with e-war ). So if you want e-war ... train falcon/rook(kinda sucks but meh)/kitsune or even blackbird. If you want pinning down opponents train for minnie recons (they have no e-war tho :) their racial e-war is a joke). Just my 2 cents I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?

Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Edriahn The most common fit fo arazu and lach these dayz is to shield tank it and nano the lowz. It's pathetic, only works for scout because of cloak. 400+ Dps lachesis (stock tech II mods) and decent tank to boot is the nice :) You dont have to nano everything :D Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:40:00 - [12] gallente recons theme song atm.
Thorexion Lynch C R Y O	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:46:00 - [13] IMO: It'd make more sense for the Gallente to be the ECM race because we use blasters with a range of only a few k, I think it'd make more sense that we'd try to stop the target locking us so we can deal more damage before your Thorax gets locked and its "awesome" tanking ability shines through. Caldari with damps makes more sense because they can orbit at range and spam missiles.... But this just my opinion... -Thor looks for flame suit
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:53:00 - [14] Edited by: Damned Force on 05/06/2008 13:02:30 U cant damp 4 ships down inder 120km, but u can damp 1 ship with 2 dampeners good. See what can do the minmatar recon in fleet.....The gallente is much better. And if u with 1 ship can take out 2 others from the fight thats a good tradeoff. and thats 100% of the time Yes u can make a bit better with caldari recons, but thats are chancebased, so in the whole time of the battle u have same or less effect. I could say as one of the posters that ******* gallente whinners. because the ships is no more a solowtfpwnmobil u should not post....... And u can say what u want i use still the arazu in both(small and fleet) fights too. Oh god your ship is not so mighty anymore.... try to do something in most situation with a pilgrim for example and than u can say the gallente recons are bad The only thing what devs should maybe change to give bigger optimal to the dampeners
Tal Nok DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Other option could be change the ship damp bonus to 7.5-10% per level. Still only gives one effect, but at least that effect is back where it should be. This tbfh Originally by: CCP Mitnal Forum gods ANGRY. Need sacrifice.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:17:00 - [16] I think certain people are expecting a little too much from a recon ship. The only ones that can defend themselves against multiple targets efffectively are the Falcon/Rook and they can do little else (no tackle, tank, speed or dps). As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. The criticism that you need a gang to be effective is simply laughable as it applies to so many ships.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Damned Force Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too. I was hoping to see the setup of this fine ship used by such an awesome and skillfull pilot as you are, good sir. I was hoping to see countless fleet battles where you, good sir, dampened the hell out of those pesky snipers. To my greatest surprise and disappointment (well not really) internet has no history regarding pilot known as "Damned Force". Why is that, the questioning soul such as myself, may ask? Perhaps a skillfull pilot such as you are is hiding behind an alt? Why? The only logical answer that comes to mind is that you, good sir, is a liar.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Birkinz As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion?
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Kirja Originally by: Birkinz As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion? 1st Personly i dont like to share fittings, becausethe enemy than would know what can wait from u. 2nd I dont give my orig char, because if u see me on the battlefield if u see my name on the target list u would know what can u wait from me :) But if u really want contact me ingame and i give u the fitting
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:27:00 - [20] Gallente are not the E-war race, if you don't like gallente E-war ships, train another race, very simple. Or the rest of the gallente ships should be nerfed, to be inline with recons. There are already too many gallente ships on the battelfields, it's wrong to improve ANY of their pvp ships, no matter what role.

Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Damned Force Edited by: Damned Force on 05/06/2008 13:02:30 ... See what can do the minmatar recon in fleet.....The gallente is much better. ... The Rapier is two times as fast as the Arazu, so it's first of all the better scout, capable of breaking through gatecamps or running back to the gate. Second, it's very useful to have 1 or 2 rapiers within your snipers, as they kill the tacklers, that made it on top of your fleet. An Arazu can't take out 2 opposing sniper-BS at 120-130km, as you're at the end of your falloff, where you'r damps are chance-based to get a cycle like ECM. And I remind you not to forget about the boost, the Falcon just got. Surprisingly at around the same time, the Damps got nerfed .
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:23:00 - [22] Quote: Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion? Its quite simple, damps are supposed to be different to ECM and in my opinion they are supposed to be slightly less powerful than ECM since the ship that fits them is more powerful in a combat role. My views are based on the fact that ECM was nerfed first by making it chance base and having to fit signal distortion amps in the lows (something you dont need to do with damps). This resulted in everyone in every ship fitting damps and no one using ECM since 3 x Damps = perma jam to anything. Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship. CCP also stated that they dont like solo ships and the Gallente recons at the time were solopwnmobiles at the time. This has been a sequence of events that has in my opinion made the game more interesting and varied. What is it your views are based on?
Kusha'an RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:42:00 - [23] CCP should boost the Arazu and call it a nerf. Isn't that what they normally do anyway, except the opposite? ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Kuzya Morozov L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:53:00 - [24] Nope, they are fine. And I fly them too. Time to go outside.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:52:00 - [25] Edited by: Kirja on 05/06/2008 18:54:15 Originally by: Birkinz Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship. Come back when you flown highly effective dedicated ship that is Arazu for 100+ hours. Then your opinion will matter. Go ask any experienced FC what will they prefer in a standard gang Falcon or Arazu.
Sitthh	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:16:00 - [26] nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Sitthh nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying. So by your logic 1. No buff because we already have a few good ships. 2. We are not asking to be able to dampen lots of targets, we can barely dampen 1 BS atm. 3. Damps should not become chance based like ECM, leave that to the caldari. 4. Caldari are the king of EW so gallente EW should be **? 5. Dont bring in a silly drone cause lagg whine, in the end there are many other factors that cause lagg. Originally by:** Jenny Spitfire I habe no life.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:39:00 - [28] A point about Scram bonus being redundant with the introduction of new intercepter bonus and HICtors is very valid. Gal recons should get a new E-War instead of Disruptor range. OR change the Disruptor range bonus to the Damp range bonus(so that Damps would have optimal of 150+ km). This would make Arazu an unltimate anti-Falcon and anti-fleetBS. Another suggestion was to make Signal Distortion Amps apply to all E-War tyoes, not only ECM. Than you would be able to make Arazu a strong dampening ship again - but at the expense of your lows (like Falcon has too - Falcon without 2-3 Sig. Dist. Amps is not worth anything) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Kirja BOB Minmatar 11 Caldari 13 Gallente 4 Amarr 2 RA Minmatar 18 Caldari 13 Gallente 6 Amarr 1 The more useful certain recon, the more it will be used and lost. Therefore we can say that recons that are lost less frequently are less useful and underpowered. Thats one way to see it, but you could also say that minmatar and caldaris did a bad recon job and therefor were killed more often, while the gallente and Amarr recons were not that often on the loser-side because they performed better etc. If you insist that the more a ship is used, the better it must be, do you then agree that the raven is the best battelship out there ?
Sitthh	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Originally by: Sitthh nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying. So by your logic 1. No buff because we already have a few good ships. um...yea why make the races more imba. gallente already have the top solo and fleet ships....except recon, deal wit it. 2. We are not asking to be able to dampen lots of targets, we can barely dampen 1 BS atm. learn2fly. please go talk to an expirienced gal recon pilot. I have several in my alliance and they say gal recons r fine. 3. Damps should not become chance based like ECM, leave that to the caldari. If you dont want them to become chance based then they shouldnt get boosted. 4. Caldari are the king of EW so gallente EW should be ****? Again, please go talk to a good gallente recon pilot they will tell you their recons r fine. 5. Dont bring in a silly drone cause lagg whine, in the end there are many other factors that cause lagg. Remember kids SHOOT TEH DRONSSS!!!



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