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Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:16:00 - [1] Note - This was originally going to be a long hateful letter to CCP. And honestly, I do hate you stupid fvcks if you don't manage to fix Gallente EWar boats. The letter would have been extremely amusing and/or offensive to the reader, and probably would have gotten more than a bit of reader support. However it would have ended up being moderated. Instead I opted for this rather blaise and dull rendition of facts that have already been repeated ad naseum, yet the devs fabulously refuse to address or comment on. Only response I've ever seen being "Gallente recons are working as intended." Really? Then the intention is for them to fail. Problems with Gallente EWar boats. First, is the reduced strength of damps. In case you are not aware the strength of damps have been reduced by about 30% from pre-Trinity levels. My former strength on a Phased Muon/T2 damp was 64% (decent skills, no rigs or implants). Now it has been nerfed down to 45%. And that is indeed with a script. So hitting a typical 80km lock range BS with three damps will knock it down to 20km (gotta love that stacking nerf). 20km is not exactly close range. If that BS has a sensor booster then it's about 35-40km. Now lets consider a gang fight with relatively equal numbers rather than a 5v1 gank. Your Gal recon pilot with his reduced damps can no longer rely on just one damp to fend off opponents. He has to use 2, possibly 3 if the opponent is close. Everytime he has to double up, or triple a damp, it makes it that much harder for him to fend off a second or third opponent. And sadly, given the pizz-poor tank on the recons, he doesn't exactly have time for his gangmates to save him. Furthermore, even though you have reduced your opponents' long range to mid-range, they still don't have a locktime reduction. This is the biggest impact to gang warfare. The reduced locktime gave your gangmates about 10-20 unanswered seconds of beating on your opponents. A lifesaver for your small tacklers, and a huge bonus for your damage dealers. Now they are unlikely to have that option - unless of course your recon pilot is feeling particularly suicidal. He normally has to fit lockrange reduction for survivability. On top of this, we have the drone change. Not a huge impact in gang fights as most people do not target drones. However, drones do make up a decent percentage of a Gal Recons damage. Since they retain shield damage on being scooped, they are a bit easier to kill these days. Not a significant impact in gangs mind you, but still there nonetheless. Now to add insult to injury, the Gal Recons' other primary function of long-range scramming has been replaced by cheaper or more effective ships. The new EAF is cheaper, faster locking, and still possess the questionable usefulness of damping. The second (and better) choice is an interceptor. Scram range of 30km, runs permanently, incredibly difficult to kill, and once again - cheaper. Basically, the Gal Recons have been emasculated. But I suspect that I'm not really telling any Gal Recon pilot with half of a brain anything they don't already know. The preferred solution would be to give the ships a script that gives 100% to both effects so they can work as they did pre-Trinity. Other option could be change the ship damp bonus to 7.5-10% per level. Still only gives one effect, but at least that effect is back where it should be. Taxman V: Back in Black
Ecky X Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.04 00:51:00 - [2] I agree with you, that Gallente recons are no longer awesome in close-range and small engagements. However, I can still see a LOT of utility in medium and long range engagements. One issue is that you rarely end up 40k away from someone, and when you do, you can't keep that range. IMO, a Gallente recon's biggest enemy is a nanoship.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.04 01:02:00 - [3] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 04/06/2008 01:05:10 i endorse this idea. Ty for a well written post too The biggest issue has been brought up here, the Arazu/lach's role of tackling has been completely filled by a myriad of ships that can do it better. And since its RSD's have been neutered, it kinda kills that. The only effective use of the RSD is to pair up with ECM users, and even so thats just a cherry on top for someone else, the benefit isn't there, bcuz you'd be more valuable in a bs, command ship, hac or w/e doing dmg. I really like having them having both effects again, but i find this unlikely to happen, so i'd suffice with the 7.5% or 10% for the ship boni. edit: Originally by: Ecky X I agree with you, that Gallente recons are no longer awesome in close-range and small engagements. However, I can still see a LOT of utility in medium and long range engagements. One issue is that you rarely end up 40k away from someone, and when you do, you can't keep that range. IMO, a Gallente recon's biggest enemy is a nanoship. the optimal range+fall off range of RSD's is so pathetic relative to the other EWar effecting targetting (ECM) that it's really ineffective imo. In a long range engagement your enemy is going to have a long enough range to be damped down to where they can still target you. And when in falloff of the RSD their effectiveness is lessened, worsening them further.
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.04 13:44:00 - [4] Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Damned Force In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine It is good to support such arguments with some maths/fits. Can you share how was you able to achive such performance reliable from 120-130km even with all 5 character?
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:55:00 - [6] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 05/06/2008 11:58:02 Originally by: Damned Force Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine ok i've had it with these f'ing idiots who ruin each and every valid thread about gallente recons with their misplaced nonsense and/or outright lies (wheither intentional or not). as usual an excellent valid post starts, good valid points are presented, then as allways some idiot walks in, tells ppl to stop whining and demonstrates just how little he knows about the topic at hand. whining is when the complaint is not justified and you just cry about it anyways, if that is not the case _it's not whining it's stating the obvious imbalance_ the gallente recons are NOT ok, they have been nuked by 30% to a point where they can barely damp one bs and the falcon can cycle jam like 3. they are NOT still powerful, they are not even powerful at all, all they have for tank is ewar and their ewar borderlines impotens atm. why, because damp usage was a problem on non dedicated dampener ships, so the module was nerfed, scripts were introduced, but what was forgotten? to compensate the dedicated ships that were perfectly balanced before the module nerf. most of the gal recon pilots who have replied to these threads in the past (to deaf ears apparently thus far) DO HAVE MAXED SKILLS.. and you idiots come and muck about every time with your bs saying everything is cool and to "stop whining" or that they are imbicils who don't know how to play eve.. but maybe take a look in the mirror next time. also the numbers you give are utter fracking nonsense. you have never flown a gal recon and if you say you have you'll forgive me for not believing you, you are an idiot in this regard so please stop posting till you get a f'ing clue. thanks.
Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.05 11:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Damned Force Guys, it would be enough of the whine about gallente recons. They are good as they are atm. Sure not so extreme powerfull as was before, but good enough to fly. Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too(in small gangs a bit less since i use in last time HIC mostly) With maxed skills or almost maxed(what should have every recon pilot-recons are not the ships can be flown with lvl3 skills) the arazu still damn powerfull. In small gang u can scramble the enemy and still damp them(combined with a rook) to hell. In fleet combat just sit around 120-130km from the enemy sniper fleet and use targetting range scripts. U can get even a 250km range ship under 120km with single dampener if u fit good and have the skills. so train up your skills, learn how to use the ship and dont whine I've trained all related skills to LvL 4/5 and in combination with a Falcon and Scan-Res scripts loaded it somewhat works good. However you can't damp opposing ships in Long-Range-Sniper-Fleets, as you're in 95% falloff @ 120-130km. At this range your damps don't work 100% nor do they work in full effect. So you maybe can damp down a single ship in the opposing fleet, but then you could better be flying an additional Sniper-battleship yourself. Absolutely agreed on a bonus-buff from 5%/lvl to 7,5%/lvl. .
Edriahn Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:07:00 - [8] The most common fit fo arazu and lach these dayz is to shield tank it and nano the lowz. It's pathetic, only works for scout because of cloak.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:21:00 - [9] The problem with the gallente recons is that they were nerfed several times over at once. Damps were scripted and lossed some 30-40%(can't recall exact figure) of their former stat. Also they had two more major things working against them, the hics and falcons. The lachesis used to be a good boat to boost up and slap a few points on, it'd lock somewhat quickly and get several points on making sure the target did not get away, it could even use some(cheap mind you) faction scramblers to keep disruptor range but dash some 6-10 points on them. Having more than one point is rendered pointless due to hics. So this leaves them with damps. Damps are not bad mind you, they can bring an intie within webrange(using 1-3 damps). They can... annoy others. They can help blackbirds that are not entirely sure on what they're doing by giving them a few extra seconds cycle time. They can't really do **** to sniper ships due to the 45km optimal on damps. ,90km falloff is nice and all, but being at some 30% chance for your damps to hit and then remove 60% targeting render it somewhat useless seeing how a falcon could do the same with higher likelihood of completely disabling the ship. In short there's no real role the arazu and lachesis can do that another ship can't do better. Short of possibly support support which is a role narrow enough to be filled by one ship throughout the population of eve at a time. =) Parrots, commence! Postcount: 556448
Dreadpilot Roberts Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:24:00 - [10] They suck and fail badly. After training amarr/minmatarr cruiser 5 i decided to give gallente a go and trained gallente cruiser 5 ( for the ishtar ). Didn't even look at arazu/lachesis and most certainly didn't buy one because I flew them on test server first. Bottom line is, Pilgrim Arazu Lach FAIL at their recon role ( avoiding an opponent or 2-3 even with e-war ). So if you want e-war ... train falcon/rook(kinda sucks but meh)/kitsune or even blackbird. If you want pinning down opponents train for minnie recons (they have no e-war tho :) their racial e-war is a joke). Just my 2 cents I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ?

Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Edriahn The most common fit fo arazu and lach these dayz is to shield tank it and nano the lowz. It's pathetic, only works for scout because of cloak. 400+ Dps lachesis (stock tech II mods) and decent tank to boot is the nice :) You dont have to nano everything :D Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:40:00 - [12] gallente recons theme song atm.
Thorexion Lynch C R Y O	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:46:00 - [13] IMO: It'd make more sense for the Gallente to be the ECM race because we use blasters with a range of only a few k, I think it'd make more sense that we'd try to stop the target locking us so we can deal more damage before your Thorax gets locked and its "awesome" tanking ability shines through. Caldari with damps makes more sense because they can orbit at range and spam missiles.... But this just my opinion... -Thor looks for flame suit
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:53:00 - [14] Edited by: Damned Force on 05/06/2008 13:02:30 U cant damp 4 ships down inder 120km, but u can damp 1 ship with 2 dampeners good. See what can do the minmatar recon in fleet.....The gallente is much better. And if u with 1 ship can take out 2 others from the fight thats a good tradeoff. and thats 100% of the time Yes u can make a bit better with caldari recons, but thats are chancebased, so in the whole time of the battle u have same or less effect. I could say as one of the posters that ******* gallente whinners. because the ships is no more a solowtfpwnmobil u should not post....... And u can say what u want i use still the arazu in both(small and fleet) fights too. Oh god your ship is not so mighty anymore.... try to do something in most situation with a pilgrim for example and than u can say the gallente recons are bad The only thing what devs should maybe change to give bigger optimal to the dampeners
Tal Nok DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2008.06.05 12:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Other option could be change the ship damp bonus to 7.5-10% per level. Still only gives one effect, but at least that effect is back where it should be. This tbfh Originally by: CCP Mitnal Forum gods ANGRY. Need sacrifice.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:17:00 - [16] I think certain people are expecting a little too much from a recon ship. The only ones that can defend themselves against multiple targets efffectively are the Falcon/Rook and they can do little else (no tackle, tank, speed or dps). As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. The criticism that you need a gang to be effective is simply laughable as it applies to so many ships.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Damned Force Im flying this ships in fleets and in small gangs too. I was hoping to see the setup of this fine ship used by such an awesome and skillfull pilot as you are, good sir. I was hoping to see countless fleet battles where you, good sir, dampened the hell out of those pesky snipers. To my greatest surprise and disappointment (well not really) internet has no history regarding pilot known as "Damned Force". Why is that, the questioning soul such as myself, may ask? Perhaps a skillfull pilot such as you are is hiding behind an alt? Why? The only logical answer that comes to mind is that you, good sir, is a liar.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Birkinz As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion?
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.05 13:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Kirja Originally by: Birkinz As you are all well aware, damps are not chance based and so the ability to completely disable almost any ships offence indefinately whilst tackling from outside their lock range is pretty powerful. Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion? 1st Personly i dont like to share fittings, becausethe enemy than would know what can wait from u. 2nd I dont give my orig char, because if u see me on the battlefield if u see my name on the target list u would know what can u wait from me :) But if u really want contact me ingame and i give u the fitting
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:27:00 - [20] Gallente are not the E-war race, if you don't like gallente E-war ships, train another race, very simple. Or the rest of the gallente ships should be nerfed, to be inline with recons. There are already too many gallente ships on the battelfields, it's wrong to improve ANY of their pvp ships, no matter what role.

Grytok moon7empler Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Damned Force Edited by: Damned Force on 05/06/2008 13:02:30 ... See what can do the minmatar recon in fleet.....The gallente is much better. ... The Rapier is two times as fast as the Arazu, so it's first of all the better scout, capable of breaking through gatecamps or running back to the gate. Second, it's very useful to have 1 or 2 rapiers within your snipers, as they kill the tacklers, that made it on top of your fleet. An Arazu can't take out 2 opposing sniper-BS at 120-130km, as you're at the end of your falloff, where you'r damps are chance-based to get a cycle like ECM. And I remind you not to forget about the boost, the Falcon just got. Surprisingly at around the same time, the Damps got nerfed .
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:23:00 - [22] Quote: Here is another example of clueless theorist. Have you ever flown Arazu? Do you have any experience with it after nerf? Your arguments based on what? Righ click - show ship property - alt+tab - click post button? May we ask to stay theorists and people who like to argue simply for the sake of it to stay out of the discussion? Its quite simple, damps are supposed to be different to ECM and in my opinion they are supposed to be slightly less powerful than ECM since the ship that fits them is more powerful in a combat role. My views are based on the fact that ECM was nerfed first by making it chance base and having to fit signal distortion amps in the lows (something you dont need to do with damps). This resulted in everyone in every ship fitting damps and no one using ECM since 3 x Damps = perma jam to anything. Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship. CCP also stated that they dont like solo ships and the Gallente recons at the time were solopwnmobiles at the time. This has been a sequence of events that has in my opinion made the game more interesting and varied. What is it your views are based on?
Kusha'an RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:42:00 - [23] CCP should boost the Arazu and call it a nerf. Isn't that what they normally do anyway, except the opposite? ---- What part of "shorn't" do you not understand?
Kuzya Morozov L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.06.05 15:53:00 - [24] Nope, they are fine. And I fly them too. Time to go outside.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:52:00 - [25] Edited by: Kirja on 05/06/2008 18:54:15 Originally by: Birkinz Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship. Come back when you flown highly effective dedicated ship that is Arazu for 100+ hours. Then your opinion will matter. Go ask any experienced FC what will they prefer in a standard gang Falcon or Arazu.
Sitthh	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:16:00 - [26] nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Sitthh nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying. So by your logic 1. No buff because we already have a few good ships. 2. We are not asking to be able to dampen lots of targets, we can barely dampen 1 BS atm. 3. Damps should not become chance based like ECM, leave that to the caldari. 4. Caldari are the king of EW so gallente EW should be **? 5. Dont bring in a silly drone cause lagg whine, in the end there are many other factors that cause lagg. Originally by:** Jenny Spitfire I habe no life.
Delichon Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:39:00 - [28] A point about Scram bonus being redundant with the introduction of new intercepter bonus and HICtors is very valid. Gal recons should get a new E-War instead of Disruptor range. OR change the Disruptor range bonus to the Damp range bonus(so that Damps would have optimal of 150+ km). This would make Arazu an unltimate anti-Falcon and anti-fleetBS. Another suggestion was to make Signal Distortion Amps apply to all E-War tyoes, not only ECM. Than you would be able to make Arazu a strong dampening ship again - but at the expense of your lows (like Falcon has too - Falcon without 2-3 Sig. Dist. Amps is not worth anything) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Kirja BOB Minmatar 11 Caldari 13 Gallente 4 Amarr 2 RA Minmatar 18 Caldari 13 Gallente 6 Amarr 1 The more useful certain recon, the more it will be used and lost. Therefore we can say that recons that are lost less frequently are less useful and underpowered. Thats one way to see it, but you could also say that minmatar and caldaris did a bad recon job and therefor were killed more often, while the gallente and Amarr recons were not that often on the loser-side because they performed better etc. If you insist that the more a ship is used, the better it must be, do you then agree that the raven is the best battelship out there ?
Sitthh	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Originally by: Sitthh nooo...gallente already have uber pvp ships in every class so stop complaining. gallente recons shouldn't be able to dampen multiple targets effectively. If you want them to be able to dampen multiple targets effectively, then make damps chance based like ecm. Also stop crying about drones. Drones=lag so the more drone nerfs the less ppl use them so less lag. Caldari are king of ew so stop crying. So by your logic 1. No buff because we already have a few good ships. um...yea why make the races more imba. gallente already have the top solo and fleet ships....except recon, deal wit it. 2. We are not asking to be able to dampen lots of targets, we can barely dampen 1 BS atm. learn2fly. please go talk to an expirienced gal recon pilot. I have several in my alliance and they say gal recons r fine. 3. Damps should not become chance based like ECM, leave that to the caldari. If you dont want them to become chance based then they shouldnt get boosted. 4. Caldari are the king of EW so gallente EW should be ****? Again, please go talk to a good gallente recon pilot they will tell you their recons r fine. 5. Dont bring in a silly drone cause lagg whine, in the end there are many other factors that cause lagg. Remember kids SHOOT TEH DRONSSS!!!

tweaky boson Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.05 20:06:00 - [31] A max-skilled falcon pilot can take up to (depending on target racial composition) 5 ships out of a fight at a time from 150km... and while it may be chance based, chances are very good that he will jam you. By contrast, a max-skilled arazu pilot can take 1 maybe 2 ships out of fight from 50km. Sorry this is just not a level playing field compared to other ship classes which are infinitely more balanced.
Sitthh	Posted - 2008.06.05 20:26:00 - [32] Originally by: tweaky boson A max-skilled falcon pilot can take up to (depending on target racial composition) 5 ships out of a fight at a time from 150km... and while it may be chance based, chances are very good that he will jam you. By contrast, a max-skilled arazu pilot can take 1 maybe 2 ships out of fight from 50km. Sorry this is just not a level playing field compared to other ship classes which are infinitely more balanced. Yup...the ships not fittin eccm will be jammed you know why...b/c they don't know how to adapt. If you dont adapt you deserve to die. Plz dont whine if your not considering the counters to any module/ship.
Wayward Hero	Posted - 2008.06.05 21:24:00 - [33] The only buff I see needed to Damps is to Falloff. Give damps somewhere around 150km falloff with skills. You could then more reliably break the locks of opponents at longer ranges, but with a chance based element like ECM anywhere beyond 45km. Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively.
Ay'Not Sivad Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.06.05 21:52:00 - [34] i never did understand people's constant bickering about RSD's. To me pre-trinity they were one of the most balanced e-war modules in game. so what if i can't lock past 12km's, all i have to do is tap my micro and i'm within range of that lachesis/arazu before they can run a second damp cycle, bump them so you have time to lock them before they warp out, and you're home free. but of course, let's leave ECM the way it is, a module that makes almost ANY ship on the battlefield completely worthless no matter what he/she does. of course you can fit ECCM, but that's a mid-slot most ships don't have, and even when it is fit, you ARE still going to get jammed. i've seen carriers with 2x ECCM fit nearly perma-jammed by a falcon from 180km's away, obviously the falcon pilot got lucky, but the point still stands. everything in eve is based around math, or some kind of logical motivater behind the reasoning for modules to work, but then you take a look at ECM and you see a chance-based module within a math-based game. and don't bring up the notion that ecm is based around math, you know what i mean(a dice roll, versus ''i'm-this-far-away-so-i-do-this-much-damage''). i seriously think they should put sensor damps back to the way they used to be, hell, they should remove scripts all together(a completely stupid idea in my eyes). CCP has just been making some epically horrible decisions lately in the past few patches. what thing is CCP going to nerf next that didn't need it, or they nerf it wrong(cough essentially removing NOS from the game)
Zarstrax	Posted - 2008.06.05 22:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Wayward Hero Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively. They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.05 22:11:00 - [36] Edited by: Ruciza on 05/06/2008 22:11:30 Originally by: Zarstrax Originally by: Wayward Hero Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively. They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine. Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.05 22:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Ruciza Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... No, they don't. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.05 23:18:00 - [38] Gallente recons are worthless against other recons since reconships have a verry long base locking range, and that problems gets magnified by the fact the slotlayout on both arent really suited to fit for a decent nanotank (you need at least 3 damps now where you could use 2 before the dampnerf). And regarding the scram range.....heavy dictors can do it better.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba If you insist that the more a ship is used, the better it must be, do you then agree that the raven is the best battelship out there ? You logic is flawed. I used killboards of experienced PvP entities for a reason. Go on and check which BSs are used by those entities in fleet operations. Ravens will be far behind Minmatar, Amarr and Gallente. In other word belt ganked Raven losses has nothing to do with PvP
Illyria Ambri SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:23:00 - [40] RSD's mere nerfed because every ship they were fitted on could damp very well compared to having any other ecm fitted. The gallente recons were fine.. but the attempt to stop everyone from fitting damps resulted in the nerfing of the recons that used them also. The nerf succeeded in stopping everyone from fitting them on non recons.. The side effect of killing the gallente recons was a side effect that needs to be restored ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?

mentalmonkey	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:41:00 - [41] Despite being a high skilled Celestis pilot and nearly able to fly Gallente recons I had to train and buy BBs and Scorps just to be usefull to my corp - which even with lower skills are FAR more effective in almost any combat environment. The Damp nerf was justified, but the recons need bonuses to counteract it to bring them back to thier old level of effectiveness. You only have to look at the market to see how unpopular they are, in Essance they are half the price of the Caldari recons.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:37:00 - [42] Kirja, like most of the negative posts I see on these forums you are falling into the trap of taking 1 situation in eve (fleet battles at range) and assuming that that is the only area that needs to be balanced. The Falcon/Rook are better than the Gallente recons in fleet and noone is arguing with that. If you want to jam multiple ships in a fleet like this you need to use a Falcon/Rook. The Arazu is still usable, however, and probably the second best in this role. If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon. If you want to catch nanos you need minnie recons and if you want to suck cap and disrupt turrets then you need an amarr one. The argument that you are using is the same as saying that a Thorax is useless because it cannot snipe like a Moa in fleets - you are simple using the wrong tool for the job. If the Arazu gets changed as you would like then it would be a ship with good combat abilities, extra long tackling, the most powerful ewar that can fly fast and warp when cloaked. Do I need to say more? Its not sounding useless to me. Your argument that only people that have flown 100 hours + in an Arazu can post is absurd. It would hardly make for a balanced discussion to have only Arazu fanboys posting. Your posts about killboards are simply bizarre.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Birkinz Your argument that only people that have flown 100 hours + in an Arazu can post is absurd. It would hardly make for a balanced discussion to have only Arazu fanboys posting. Your posts about killboards are simply bizarre. The only argument that i used is that only people with experience flying any particular ship can discuss whether this ship is fine or not. Unless you have practical experience all you pretty theories are just that... your pretty yet empty theories. I can fly caldari and gallente recons on my main and minmatar on my alt. So there is little point to bring "fanboy" word into discussion. You try to imagine some abstract fairy tale situation where Arazu is a worthy ship to fly. Well i agree that such fairy tale situation may exists. But in reality gallente recons have no role where they excel. Disruptor range bonus is obsolete in the age of inties going 7k+ that have the very same bonus as Arazu doesa and im not even talking about dictors and heavy dictors that will be more welcomed than Arazu in any gang. Dampening bonus is useless as well... I am not going to bother bring any math to you as there is a huge amount of deep, well constructed posts on this topic already. To finish with this useless discussion... Arazu or Lachesis were never overpowered, they were fine specialized ships with a distinctive flavor. But thanks to the whines of fairy tale theorists like yourself who have never flown it they were nerfed into oblivion.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Birkinz If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon. Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:18:00 - [45] I suggest you go back to those killboards that you are so fond of where I am sure you will be able to reports that noone ever kills anything in an Arazu.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:19:00 - [46] Originally by: Birkinz I suggest you go back to those killboards that you are so fond of where I am sure you will be able to reports that noone ever kills anything in an Arazu. I suggest you go back to those killboards that im so fond off and compare kill participations made by Rapiers and Falcons vs kill participation made by Arazus. And make some logical conclusions in your head.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:31:00 - [47] Quote: Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor. The point is that you need a Falcon and a HIC to to do it better and an Arazu can do both things at once. It is a recurring theme that Gallente ships do well solo and this also fits in with the gallente being individualists whilst caldari are more gang orientated. The obvious flipside is that a Falcon/Rook cannot tackle or tank and have no drones or DPS as I have said several times. If you want the Arazu to damp as well as a Falcon jams then that is fine but it would have to be balanced by losing its drones, its low slots and some of its guns. This would be a step backwards in my opinion as it would mean two falcons with different skins instead of two ships with completely different flavours. These arguments can be used on anything. Yes interceptors can tackle at range and speed tank, but they cant cloak and DPS. Yes HICs can tackle and tank but they too cannot cloak. The Arazu can be used with a Black ops unlike the others mentioned. Ultimately, although these ships have superficial similarities they also have major differences and that is the beauty of EVE. Lots of ships with lots of possible fittings that intelligent players can use as they see fit. The certainly shouldn't all do the same thing.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:35:00 - [48] Why dont you just fly a Falcon?
Damned Force Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:37:00 - [49] Edited by: Damned Force on 06/06/2008 13:36:50 Originally by: Darth Felin Originally by: Birkinz If you want to tackle and damp something then you have to use a Gallente recon. Can you describe a typical situation for it? Problem is that both roles for arazu (disabling target and long range tackling) can be handled MUCH better by another ships (falcon and hics). The only thing that I can imaging it is trying to solo some stupid hunter in belts or relativly cheap cover cynoship with some armor. Thats a bad arument... :( So because the cerberus have worst damage than the thorax and slover than the vagabon it needs a major boost?
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:45:00 - [50] Edited by: Darth Felin on 06/06/2008 13:45:21 Originally by: Damned Force Thats a bad arument... :( So because the cerberus have worst damage than the thorax and slover than the vagabon it needs a major boost? Don't troll please.

Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:25:00 - [51] Quote: yea I can agree with it - the problem as I see it an Arazu have an extremly narrow spot of usage, and even then it don't excel at role. Lachetis is in even worse condition. Your post was very balanced. In reference to the above quote, I think they can be used in combination with other ships extemely well. The obvious one would be to pair one with a falcon using lock time scripts. Others could be using them in cloaking gangs with rapiers to tackle and web unexpectedly from long range. I think an arazu using lock time scripts and ecm drones (either their own or other peoples) would also be useful. These are just a few examples of when I have wanted an Arazu in my gang, I am sure there are lots more. The specific grievence here is about Fleet battles and my view is that the Arazu should not be as good as the Falcon in this situation.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:01:00 - [52] I fully agree with the OP. Other than the Falcon, ECM has not been buffed in any significant way since I've been playing the game that I am aware of and yet ECM and the Falcon specifically is one of the most complained about ships in the game. In my book, the Falcon is the only Targeting inhibiting ship in the game that has any real merit in most common circumstances. Indeed, the best use of a Gallente recon these days is supporting a falcon by using lock time scripts on targets the falcon jams, further ensuring electronic superiority over a handful of targets. Given that electronic warfare is a combat support role, this relegates Sensor Dampning to a combat support support role - and any ship that relies on supporting a support ship to be of any real use in most situations is clearly broken. But the nerf hammer did come down hard for a reason. Sensor damps were the single most effective form of EWAR in the game - and many ships would find a way to slap a few of them on (In my early days in a Caracal I'd use three sensor damps for example). Still, I believe there is room for boosting the nearly useless dampner to a point where it is still incredibly useful on specialized platforms in much the same way that ECM is only really useful on specialized platforms. The biggest difference between Dampners and ECM is the range - falcons and other ECM ships will almost always operate at ranges well over 120km - Damp ships must stay far closer. So one boost is to change the ship bonuses and module to allow a similar (160 km or so) maximum damp range. But since ECM is change based and Damps are not, to allow for a balance something needs to go on the damps. The easiest solution is to ensure that at the ranges an ECM ship of a certain class operates at (EAF, cruiser, Recon and Black Ops (If the gallente Black ops even gets a bonus - I assume it does but I've never looked)) a Damp ship can also operate at in falloff. The second issue points to dampning strength - where it was once possible to damp sensors down to point blank range, most pilots are now forced to settle for damping down to 20 or so KM (the most reasonable average for a standard fleet battleship which will almost certainly have a sensor booster loaded). Given the effectivness of dampners was cut down to about a third, boosting it's power in a single function back to it's pre nerf days is not uncalled for. Of course, being able to operate at fleet ranges means that Gallente pilots actually have a reason to show up in a recon to fleet fights (it isn't grand choice but at least there is a reason) - as such, a power boost may not be necessary. Likewise, a power boost would increase the effecience of the Gallente recon in smaller scale combat, an area where gallente ships already excell. I would suggest taking the boosts one step at a time with a few months in between - first boosting range and then power if necessary. This would solve the most troubling issues of Sensor Dampning and would give gallente pilots a good reason to dust off their electronic superiorty vessels.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ruciza Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... No, they don't. -Liang Yes, they do. -Not Liang
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:11:00 - [54] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ruciza Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... No, they don't. -Liang Yes, they do. -Not Liang I have to agree with Liang. Most of the time a Gallente recon is not going to be able to get close enough to the falcon the damp it. Inability to engage at a Falcon's native range means that the Gallente ship is always having to struggle uphill to get close. Now IF the gallente recon manages to get close enough then yes, it CAN neutralize the falcon. Of course, had the falcon pilot been given time to prepare the battelfield in advance and place multiple grid warp points then the victory for the Gallente pilot will be short lived.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:22:00 - [55] Edited by: Birkinz on 06/06/2008 15:26:29 Quote: I have to agree with Liang. Most of the time a Gallente recon is not going to be able to get close enough to the falcon the damp it. Inability to engage at a Falcon's native range means that the Gallente ship is always having to struggle uphill to get close. Would it be possible for an Arazu to move into range cloaked and then target all the Falcons and damp them? Quote: The biggest difference between Dampners and ECM is the range - falcons and other ECM ships will almost always operate at ranges well over 120km - Damp ships must stay far closer. So one boost is to change the ship bonuses and module to allow a similar (160 km or so) maximum damp range. But since ECM is change based and Damps are not, to allow for a balance something needs to go on the damps. The easiest solution is to ensure that at the ranges an ECM ship of a certain class operates at (EAF, cruiser, Recon and Black Ops (If the gallente Black ops even gets a bonus - I assume it does but I've never looked)) a Damp ship can also operate at in falloff. I think this is essentially right. If there isn't a chance based element and they have the same range then damps would be too powerfull. Especially given the fact that the Arazu is more powerful then a Falcon up close. You would simply revers the current situation and the Falcon would be obsolete again.
Elirel	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:51:00 - [56] Edited by: Elirel on 06/06/2008 15:52:44 Originally by: Birkinz Would it be possible for an Arazu to move into range cloaked and then target all the Falcons and damp them? No, because Falcon is cloaked. Originally by: Birkinz Also ECCM really does help against ECM and I DO fly Caldari ewar boats. Here. This one explains your "Gallente Recons" are fine.
Birkinz	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:08:00 - [57] Quote: Here. This one explains your "Gallente Recons" are fine. Not really, and that is a pretty worthless reply. What is shows is that I do fly some of the ships that we are talking about here and I understand the problems of flying the ECM boats that have been played down in this thread. Again and for the last time, the Falcon is better than the Arazu in ranged fleet fights and this is correct. If you wish to have more powerful damps on the Arazu then that is fine but the only way I can see to balance then would be to completely nerf every other aspect of the ship just like the falcon. Another possible balance would be to remove all ECM mods from the game, make a sngle multispec with similar range to damps that goes in a low slot. Give the blackbird, rook and falcon big dronebays, more launchers and anothe bonus to something like scrambling or neuting. But again this would be a step back in terms of variety.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:21:00 - [58] Quote: Now IF the gallente recon manages to get close enough then yes, it CAN neutralize the falcon. Of course, had the falcon pilot been given time to prepare the battelfield in advance and place multiple grid warp points then the victory for the Gallente pilot will be short lived. It's not that hard to get close enough, for a Recon going at 3 km/s or so - and this disregards the tactic of using an interceptor as a warp-in point. In a worst-case scenario, the Falcon is 200 km away from your BS. Let's say that that's where the Recon starts as well. Assuming no sensor booster, the Recon has a targeting range of 140 km or so, with RSDs that have 45 km optimal and 90 km falloff. Yeah, I know, skills at V, heh. So you need 60 km to get into targeting range - that takes, say, 25-30 seconds to get there and lock the Falcon. The RSDs are deep in falloff, but since the Falcon is 200 km from his primary jamming targets, you only need a single hit with a damp to protect your main gang. At 140 km and with 3 RSDs, that gives you about a 0.875 chance of damping him out from the main fight. Not bad at all. Of course, the Falcon can still target and jam the Recon. But Recons are tough enough to jam at the best of times, and with an ECCM, and assuming a normal spread of racial ECMs, the chances are that if the Falcon is jamming the Recon, he's not jamming much else. And it won't just stop at 140 km. 84 km closer - just another 30 seconds - and you're within overheated scram range, with drones bearing down on him. Of course, the Falcon may have just warped out before all this - but then he won't be jamming anyone. The Gallente Recons are the ship I really, really hate seeing when I'm in my Falcon.
Stoffl LFC	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:39:00 - [59] Edited by: Stoffl on 06/06/2008 16:43:42 Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 05/06/2008 22:11:30 Originally by: Zarstrax Originally by: Wayward Hero Increasing the strength of dampeners is likely to result in overpowering these recons again, and any buff to damp strength must be considered carefully and conservatively. They were never overpowered. Current Falcon>old arazu. Specialised damp ships were fine. Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... rofl....right, damps we're never overpowered, and that's the reason why nearly every PVP-fit had one or two damps on. Like ECM Multispectrals we're never overpowered and the FOTM pvp mod for medslots on any ship. First, i wont say Gallente recons and force recons especially are all balanced out, we all know falcons and rapiers are FOTM due to this. I know ppl keep whining endlessly to get their favourite toys buffed, but cmon, at least try to be reasonable, else CCP will just :facepalm: at suggestion-threads like this. Oh and personally i think it's very funny that gallente recon pilots never seem to mention the scrambling bonus....the Pilgrim is the only RLY broken force-recon.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Gypsio III The Gallente Recons are the ship I really, really hate seeing when I'm in my Falcon. For me, it's the curse. It's easy to jam the Arazu at some point before his pathetic DPS kills you - the Curse caps you out and you can't jam him. Either way, the Arazu is (at best) a poor "counter" to the Falcon, especially if the Falcon pilot had any time to prepare the battle field. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.

Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Derek Sigres Likewise, a power boost would increase the effecience of the Gallente recon in smaller scale combat, an area where gallente ships already excell. I would suggest taking the boosts one step at a time with a few months in between - first boosting range and then power if necessary. Umm, the Arazu and Lachesis presently do not excel at smaller scale combat - and to be brutally honest, I'm not sure the reasons to fly Gallente for small scale combat are nearly as compelling today as they were a year ago. Quote: This would solve the most troubling issues of Sensor Dampning and would give gallente pilots a good reason to dust off their electronic superiorty vessels. ALL serious ewar pilots fly Falcons or Rooks these days because there is no other effective ewar at all. TD's are almost effective, but their use case is a bit limited. Really though, all the people saying that the Arazu is "fine" amuse me. It's almost like saying the Pilgrim is fine, or that arties are fine. They're either ignoring the blatantly obvious truth or they're actively forum politicking to maintain their own advantage in PVP. I really liked the Arazu. I liked its old role in small scale combat. I've moved on, and I doubt I'll ever fly it again because it is useless now. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:52:00 - [62] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Derek Sigres Likewise, a power boost would increase the effecience of the Gallente recon in smaller scale combat, an area where gallente ships already excell. I would suggest taking the boosts one step at a time with a few months in between - first boosting range and then power if necessary. Umm, the Arazu and Lachesis presently do not excel at smaller scale combat - and to be brutally honest, I'm not sure the reasons to fly Gallente for small scale combat are nearly as compelling today as they were a year ago. Quote: This would solve the most troubling issues of Sensor Dampning and would give gallente pilots a good reason to dust off their electronic superiorty vessels. ALL serious ewar pilots fly Falcons or Rooks these days because there is no other effective ewar at all. TD's are almost effective, but their use case is a bit limited. Really though, all the people saying that the Arazu is "fine" amuse me. It's almost like saying the Pilgrim is fine, or that arties are fine. They're either ignoring the blatantly obvious truth or they're actively forum politicking to maintain their own advantage in PVP. I really liked the Arazu. I liked its old role in small scale combat. I've moved on, and I doubt I'll ever fly it again because it is useless now. -Liang I'm surprised you seem to have missed the remainder of my comment. My proposed solution to the Gallente recon problem is to increase the range of Damps so that on bonused ships a Gallente recon can reach a target while in the damps falloff that a falcon can reach with a jammer in Optimal. This solution most specifically applies to lager scale fights where a single dampner applied at range can cut a battleship out of a fight for the duration of the modules activation. Given that Damps are always effective if they hit, requiring the module to operate in falloff provides a built in 50% chance to hit for a single damp - somewhat less than what the average jammer on a falcon has the chance of accomplishing but given that the Damp is essentially a multispec that accmoplishes the same thing it would make the Gallente Recon more flexible in it's damp assignment than an ECM pilot is with jammer assignment. The second solution was a boost to the power of the dampner so that for a single attribute (lock time or range) it had equal effectiveness to it's pre nerf days. Such a change most directly benefits smaller gang combat where Gallente tend to excell because it has a greater potential of knocking an enemy out of a close range fight by piling on the jammers. But, since this is certainly a have your cake and eat it too solution, my third proposal was to phase in these changes at stages, first by boosting the range and secondly by boosting the power. Or the changes could be reversed in their phases, first boosting the Gallente Recon's potential in small scale combat and later, if it is deemed necessary boost the range.
Suitonia interimo	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Derek Sigres I'm surprised you seem to have missed the remainder of my comment. My proposed solution to the Gallente recon problem is to increase the range of Damps so that on bonused ships a Gallente recon can reach a target while in the damps falloff that a falcon can reach with a jammer in Optimal. This solution most specifically applies to lager scale fights where a single dampner applied at range can cut a battleship out of a fight for the duration of the modules activation. Given that Damps are always effective if they hit, requiring the module to operate in falloff provides a built in 50% chance to hit for a single damp - somewhat less than what the average jammer on a falcon has the chance of accomplishing but given that the Damp is essentially a multispec that accmoplishes the same thing it would make the Gallente Recon more flexible in it's damp assignment than an ECM pilot is with jammer assignment. The second solution was a boost to the power of the dampner so that for a single attribute (lock time or range) it had equal effectiveness to it's pre nerf days. Such a change most directly benefits smaller gang combat where Gallente tend to excell because it has a greater potential of knocking an enemy out of a close range fight by piling on the jammers. But, since this is certainly a have your cake and eat it too solution, my third proposal was to phase in these changes at stages, first by boosting the range and secondly by boosting the power. Or the changes could be reversed in their phases, first boosting the Gallente Recon's potential in small scale combat and later, if it is deemed necessary boost the range. This is a well-thought out solution. --- I've always wondered about those Vagabond pilots...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.06 18:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Derek Sigres I'm surprised you seem to have missed the remainder of my comment. I didn't miss the remainder of your comment. The Arazu has never been a fleet vessel, so you'd be adding a role onto it that would be entirely new. Also, you'd have to make it a bonus to the ships themselves or you'd have fleet scorps giving up all of their ECM mods for 7x RSD's and lock range rigs. Removing a skirmish combat bonus so that the Arazu can fulfill some new role in fleet combat is questionable, at best. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:37:00 - [65] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/06/2008 18:06:36 Originally by: Derek Sigres I'm surprised you seem to have missed the remainder of my comment. I didn't miss the remainder of your comment. The Arazu has never been a fleet vessel, so you'd be adding a role onto it that would be entirely new. Also, you'd have to make it a bonus to the ships themselves or you'd have fleet scorps giving up all of their ECM mods for 7x RSD's and lock range rigs. Removing a skirmish combat bonus so that the Arazu can fulfill some new role in fleet combat is questionable, at best. -Liang Ed: I do realize that you proposed a second solution of increasing the strength of the damp. I was restricting myself to your ranged damp proposal. Range has it's purposes outside of fleet combat. My point with increasing range is due to the simple fact that a Falcon always has the upper hand when it comes to electronic superiority simply because they can reach MUCH further than anyone else. By giving the Gallente Recon range to a Caldari Recon it means that a Gallente Recon can wear yet another hat - anti-ECM support. While a Jam/Damp battle between a Gallente Recon and a Falcon would probably make for some edge of your seat entertainment, allowing both ships to work well at what essentially amounts to the same task of preventing hostile target acquisition would be approaching balance. Boosting range in terms of a fleet engagement is a questionable role, and I'm willing to grant that. After all, the Arazu still is not exactly a fleet worthy vessel in the same fashion that a Falcon isn't. Still, having the (rather expensive) option to bring an Arazu to a fleet battle and actually have a potential positive impact for your side is a step up from it's current role of ECM support ship. That being said, I am actually in favor of a fairly drastic overhaul of EWAR in general to reflect the changing mechanics and realities of the game but that's a topic that never gets any responses so I don't derail this thread with them.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:59:00 - [66] Well... Just checked the patch notes for EA. And not surprisingly there are no listed RSD or Gallente Recon fixes. So once again, I'd like to reccommend to CCP that they go fornicate with themselves. And before you silly assclowns start with the idea that this thread should have been submitted earlier to get changes in, please note that the thread is a necro from Dec'07 posted almost completely word for word. So thanks for fixing and balancing the important stuff! Go fornicate yourselves. Taxman V: Back in Black
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Well... Just checked the patch notes for EA. And not surprisingly there are no listed RSD or Gallente Recon fixes. So once again, I'd like to reccommend to CCP that they go fornicate with themselves. And before you silly assclowns start with the idea that this thread should have been submitted earlier to get changes in, please note that the thread is a necro from Dec'07 posted almost completely word for word. So thanks for fixing and balancing the important stuff! Go fornicate yourselves. Situation is even "better" in reality. Take a look at latest live dev chat from June 1. There are NO problems with them according to devs, everything works as intended. So R.I.P. Gallente recon ships.
starvoid	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:03:00 - [68] I cant believe the comment in the dev chat on this issue. What happens when you nerf the module upon which a non-overpowered ship depends? Why are the gallente recons now selling for practically cost price? Not enough clues? Obviously not. As greyscale said, they are only monitoring the forums. The nerf when it happened broke a pure gallente specialization I had rigidly stuck too. I lost a lot of belief in the game that day. Saw only two real solutions that I could stomach. Either cancel subscription and wait for the entire line of gallente ewar ships to get fixed, or to break specialization and crosstrain using GTC bought with isk. I chose the latter, and will not pay money again until this ridiculous imbalance is fixed. To anyone thinking of taking a disciplined specialization approach to this game, I urge you to think again. You would not believe how many skillpoints can be wiped out due to a poorly worked out 'balance' change. Also with ability to fly more than one race, comes the ability to switch to whatever has the strongest whine presence on the forum, until everyone and his dog flies it, before theres hope of your old favourite being re-balanced again.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ruciza Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... No, they don't. -Liang Go and do your homework.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:52:00 - [70] Originally by: starvoid Either cancel subscription and wait for the entire line of gallente ewar ships to get fixed, or to break specialization and crosstrain using GTC bought with isk... I chose the latter, and will not pay money again until this ridiculous imbalance is fixed. Pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Some chump will pay money for my game, but it sure as hell won't be me. ISK and GTC all the way. Originally by: Ruciza Go and do your homework. Liang did do her homework. That is why she is correct. If your implication is that the Gal recons are an effective counter to Falcons then you are so very very wrong. There are two possible reasons for this. Either a) you do not fly the ship and are simply talking out your ass like a brave EFT warrior, or b) the Falcon pilots (and their gangmates) you have encountered don't fly their ships very well. Neither is an adequate basis for an argument, a theory, or even a clue tbfh. Taxman V: Back in Black

Josh Causto Fatalix Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:04:00 - [71] Edited by: Josh Causto on 07/06/2008 15:04:53 The main problem I have with gal recons, and why I stopped flying them, is because of their ineffectiveness in small gang close range pvp. If you look at the other race's recons, they are still effective at closer ranges. where as the gal recons only really shine in sniper fleet battle. Of course, in combination with a falcon, gallente recons become very deadly in their ability to increase lock time significantly. But if your fleet is going to only have one recon, there is no real point in bringing a gallente one. Just my two cents.. Originally by: Speed Devil Originally by: ReePeR McAllem Everytime you fit anything other than a laser on our ships, babies die. and when ya fit lasers on your ships nothing dies
A Ingus	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:37:00 - [72] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Derek Sigres Likewise, a power boost would increase the effecience of the Gallente recon in smaller scale combat, an area where gallente ships already excell. I would suggest taking the boosts one step at a time with a few months in between - first boosting range and then power if necessary. Umm, the Arazu and Lachesis presently do not excel at smaller scale combat - and to be brutally honest, I'm not sure the reasons to fly Gallente for small scale combat are nearly as compelling today as they were a year ago. Quote: This would solve the most troubling issues of Sensor Dampning and would give gallente pilots a good reason to dust off their electronic superiorty vessels. ALL serious ewar pilots fly Falcons or Rooks these days because there is no other effective ewar at all. TD's are almost effective, but their use case is a bit limited. Really though, all the people saying that the Arazu is "fine" amuse me. It's almost like saying the Pilgrim is fine, or that arties are fine. They're either ignoring the blatantly obvious truth or they're actively forum politicking to maintain their own advantage in PVP. I really liked the Arazu. I liked its old role in small scale combat. I've moved on, and I doubt I'll ever fly it again because it is useless now. -Liang This.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Liang Nuren I really liked the Arazu. I liked its old role in small scale combat. I've moved on, and I doubt I'll ever fly it again because it is useless now. -Liang QFT
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Ruciza Still the new Gallente recons can neutralize a Falcon very well... No, they don't. -Liang Yes, they do. -Not Liang please do try to damp a falcon that is sitting at 200km, a range where the falcon is still 100% effective and the arazu is pretty much sitting at above optimal + falloff range of the damps. there is a reason why falcons are nasty SOB's to find in the field of battle, and it's not just because of their jammers nor their cloaks. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:54:00 - [75] Quote: please do try to damp a falcon that is sitting at 200km, a range where the falcon is still 100% effective and the arazu is pretty much sitting at above optimal + falloff range of the damps. I explained this one. Assuming that you can't be bothered to read it, and are too unimaginative to figure it out yourself, I'll do it again... At 200 km you only need a single damp hit to prevent the Falcon from targeting your main gang. If the Recon has a sensor booster, it can lock straight away and will have around a 0.5 chance of getting a single damp hit, assuming 3 damps. Otherwise, the recon will travel the 60 km to 140 km (the normal recon locking range) in 20-25 seconds, whereupon it has a 0.875 chance of getting the necessary single damp hit to prevent it locking the rest of your gang, who are still 200 km away. Things you're going to say and why they're stupid: 1. But the Falcon will just jam me!!! An Arazu with a single ECCM has a sensor strength of 51. A max skilled Falcon with 5 jammers will have about a 0.5 chance of jamming you, using all jammers. Of course, it he does need all jammers for this, then it means that the Falcon isn't jamming anything else. 2. But it'll just warp off! Good. Problem removed. Rinse and repeat when he comes back in 45-60 seconds. 3. But it'll just warp to an on-grid BM 300 km away! Then you do the same. Why does he have grid BMs and you don't? Note that I am not arguing that they don't deserve a boost, or that the Falcon doesn't deserve a nerf.
Euriti Caritas.	Posted - 2008.06.07 18:11:00 - [76] Originally by: starvoid I cant believe the comment in the dev chat on this issue. What happens when you nerf the module upon which a non-overpowered ship depends? Why are the gallente recons now selling for practically cost price? Not enough clues? Obviously not. As greyscale said, they are only monitoring the forums. The nerf when it happened broke a pure gallente specialization I had rigidly stuck too. I lost a lot of belief in the game that day. Saw only two real solutions that I could stomach. Either cancel subscription and wait for the entire line of gallente ewar ships to get fixed, or to break specialization and crosstrain using GTC bought with isk. I chose the latter, and will not pay money again until this ridiculous imbalance is fixed. To anyone thinking of taking a disciplined specialization approach to this game, I urge you to think again. You would not believe how many skillpoints can be wiped out due to a poorly worked out 'balance' change. Also with ability to fly more than one race, comes the ability to switch to whatever has the strongest whine presence on the forum, until everyone and his dog flies it, before theres hope of your old favourite being re-balanced again. THIS THIS AND THIS. THIS and ONLY THIS is why nerfs are BAD, imagine if nanos get the nerfbat, just imagine it, so many skillpoints lost, so much isk invalidated.
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: please do try to damp a falcon that is sitting at 200km, a range where the falcon is still 100% effective and the arazu is pretty much sitting at above optimal + falloff range of the damps. I explained this one. Assuming that you can't be bothered to read it, and are too unimaginative to figure it out yourself, I'll do it again... At 200 km you only need a single damp hit to prevent the Falcon from targeting your main gang. If the Recon has a sensor booster, it can lock straight away and will have around a 0.5 chance of getting a single damp hit, assuming 3 damps. Otherwise, the recon will travel the 60 km to 140 km (the normal recon locking range) in 20-25 seconds, whereupon it has a 0.875 chance of getting the necessary single damp hit to prevent it locking the rest of your gang, who are still 200 km away. Things you're going to say and why they're stupid: 1. But the Falcon will just jam me!!! An Arazu with a single ECCM has a sensor strength of 51. A max skilled Falcon with 5 jammers will have about a 0.5 chance of jamming you, using all jammers. Of course, it he does need all jammers for this, then it means that the Falcon isn't jamming anything else. 2. But it'll just warp off! Good. Problem removed. Rinse and repeat when he comes back in 45-60 seconds. 3. But it'll just warp to an on-grid BM 300 km away! Then you do the same. Why does he have grid BMs and you don't? Note that I am not arguing that they don't deserve a boost, or that the Falcon doesn't deserve a nerf. a 0.5 chance of a damp to hit you, at 200km range is still not enough, considering that for that you'll need to slap a range-scripted sensor booster on the arazu to reach those ranges (224km btw), and that the racial jammers are still effective at ranges upwards to 213km + 38km (with 2 range rigs, and lvl4 skills, wich means 251km optimal+ falloff in the falcon's jammers, and it's still somewhat effective, since I've tested it before), and considering that the falcon can target at 240km with a range scripted SB, the falcon only needs to move out of the arazu's range. Keep in mind also that due to the nature of at least HALF of the arazu's Ewar (warp jammers), it will need a mwd, or even an AB, leaving only 1 slot open for a warp jammer, if you decide to slap a sensor booster. A choice that the falcon doesn't need to make, since a pilot can just cram 6 jammers and a sensor booster in the medslots. in sum, the arazu is outreached and outperformed by the falcon in almost every front since it can do the same job as 4 to 6 arazus with 4 damps each and can do it farther than the arazu, meaning more safely. it's not a matter of the range of the module itself, it's a matter of ranges that both ships can work aswell. the arazu is a ship designed to work on the 30-70km range bracket, and it fails miserably here due to the strength of the dampners, and the falcon is designed to work on the 150-249km range bracket, a range where it still retains effectiveness of it's jammers and it's safe at the same time from everything bar extreme range snipers and very fast tacklers, wich, even so are still vulnerable to the jammers of the falcon due to the range that it can jam. to kill an arazu, a simple blasterrax is enough, no matter how much dampners you put on him, since 4 damps put the targeting range of the rax down to 11km, (more than enough range for it's guns to operate), it is faster even with mwd running, and it's cap holds longer, even with everything running, nevermind the ability of packing 5 med drones wich can be from damage drones to ECM drones. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:50:00 - [78] Originally by: Gypsio III I explained this one. Assuming that you can't be bothered to read it, and are too unimaginative to figure it out yourself, I'll do it again... At 200 km you only need a single damp hit to prevent the Falcon from targeting your main gang. If the Recon has a sensor booster, it can lock straight away and will have around a 0.5 chance of getting a single damp hit, assuming 3 damps. Otherwise, the recon will travel the 60 km to 140 km (the normal recon locking range) in 20-25 seconds, whereupon it has a 0.875 chance of getting the necessary single damp hit to prevent it locking the rest of your gang, who are still 200 km away. Things you're going to say and why they're stupid: 1. But the Falcon will just jam me!!! An Arazu with a single ECCM has a sensor strength of 51. A max skilled Falcon with 5 jammers will have about a 0.5 chance of jamming you, using all jammers. Of course, it he does need all jammers for this, then it means that the Falcon isn't jamming anything else. 2. But it'll just warp off! Good. Problem removed. Rinse and repeat when he comes back in 45-60 seconds. 3. But it'll just warp to an on-grid BM 300 km away! Then you do the same. Why does he have grid BMs and you don't? Note that I am not arguing that they don't deserve a boost, or that the Falcon doesn't deserve a nerf. Ok, so let me get this straight. We know that that your suggested Arazu has: - Has a 50% chance of damping a Falcon at 240-250km [FALSE] - Has an 87.5% chance of damping a Falcon at 140km [FALSE] - An ECCM - A Sensor booster - A faction warp disruptor - Is Nano'd - Has damage drones - Has Rails Well, so this must be your fitting: [Arazu, Gypsio's Suggested Arazu] Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II ECCM - Magnetometric II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Domination Warp Disruptor Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Particle Dispersion Projector II Particle Dispersion Projector II Hammerhead II x4 And now let's look at the reality of the situation, shall we? - At 240-250km, you have about an 11% chance of jamming the Falcon. - The Falcon has a 20% chance of jamming the Arazu with a multispec - The Falcon has a 10% chance of jamming the Arazu with the wrong racial - The Falcon has a 30% chance of jamming the Arazu with a single Gallente racial. - The Arazu has a 11% chance to damp the Falcon to 120km lock range for 10 seconds Now, since we have such an absurd Arazu fit, we obviously knew that we were going to be countering a Falcon. Let's assume that the Falcon knows it's countering an Arazu - even fitting merely two Gallente racials makes for a 50% chance of jamming the ECCM'ed Arazu. Now don't get me wrong - the Arazu might be annoying to a Falcon... but that's really where it stops. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Claire Cormack	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: please do try to damp a falcon that is sitting at 200km, a range where the falcon is still 100% effective and the arazu is pretty much sitting at above optimal + falloff range of the damps. I explained this one. Assuming that you can't be bothered to read it, and are too unimaginative to figure it out yourself, I'll do it again... At 200 km you only need a single damp hit to prevent the Falcon from targeting your main gang. If the Recon has a sensor booster, it can lock straight away and will have around a 0.5 chance of getting a single damp hit, assuming 3 damps. Otherwise, the recon will travel the 60 km to 140 km (the normal recon locking range) in 20-25 seconds, whereupon it has a 0.875 chance of getting the necessary single damp hit to prevent it locking the rest of your gang, who are still 200 km away. Things you're going to say and why they're stupid: 1. But the Falcon will just jam me!!! An Arazu with a single ECCM has a sensor strength of 51. A max skilled Falcon with 5 jammers will have about a 0.5 chance of jamming you, using all jammers. Of course, it he does need all jammers for this, then it means that the Falcon isn't jamming anything else. 2. But it'll just warp off! Good. Problem removed. Rinse and repeat when he comes back in 45-60 seconds. 3. But it'll just warp to an on-grid BM 300 km away! Then you do the same. Why does he have grid BMs and you don't? Note that I am not arguing that they don't deserve a boost, or that the Falcon doesn't deserve a nerf. /thread
Zarstrax	Posted - 2008.06.07 20:32:00 - [80] Edited by: Zarstrax on 07/06/2008 20:35:22 Lol you guys are nubs. The arazu will pwn a falcon, damp it down and make it completely useless!!!! Arazu is fine,I mean a falcon can't stop another falcon jamming while being useful at the same time by jamming other stuff at the same time can it? You gotta admit though arazus are quite good they are seen as much as falcons in gangs because they are just as good as falcons with ew plus they do REALLY GOOD DPS. The falcon does like no dps and the arazu when fit properly does about 300dps (3magstabs setup r0x). Tbh falcon needs a buff and arazu a nerf.

Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 20:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Zarstrax Lol you guys are nubs. The arazu will pwn a falcon, damp it down and make it completely useless!!!! Arazu is fine i mean a falcon can't stop another falcon jamming while being useful at the same time by jamming other stuff at the same time can it? Post with your main or stfu? Or are we going to get another "I dont want to show my main because you will copy my uber arazu setup"?
Zarstrax	Posted - 2008.06.07 20:40:00 - [82] Originally by: Kirja "I dont want to show my main because you will copy my uber arazu setup"? How did you know?
Satura Utterly Harmless	Posted - 2008.06.07 21:16:00 - [83] Gallente recons are kinda sad since the nerf. And i don't even need to fly one to say this, they are so rare, can't believe my eyes when i see one on scanner. That is enough evidence imo. No "complex" math or experience with the ship needed...
Lt Angus Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.06.07 21:32:00 - [84] Arazu is junk, lach is great at gate tackling but using it as a recon is a comical notion Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.07 23:35:00 - [85] Originally by: Lt Angus Arazu is junk, lach is great at gate tackling but using it as a recon is a comical notion yeah, it should have its description changed to sort of unarmed luxury shiny cloaked scout of the gallente federation with ability to open a cyno for sightseeing space yacht's designated for the rich elite.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.08 00:20:00 - [86] Gypsio's numbers are correct, although I wouldn't always recommend flying out to 140km from 200km. A Lach is obviously better, but the Arazu can do.
Umar Khattab Federation Zone Operations Command	Posted - 2008.06.08 05:37:00 - [87] Edited by: Umar Khattab on 08/06/2008 05:37:37 If you fly Galente, why do you even give a sht about fcking Recons? Use drones! Fly a HAC! ISHTAR baby! _______________________________ "Nothing succeeds like excess" -Oscar Wilde
Ynos Fukse	Posted - 2008.06.08 09:40:00 - [88] Originally by: Kirja Edited by: Kirja on 05/06/2008 19:31:01 Edited by: Kirja on 05/06/2008 19:28:50 Edited by: Kirja on 05/06/2008 18:54:15 Originally by: Birkinz Damps were then deliberately nerfed to bring them into line with ECM i.e slightly less powerful but still highly effective on a dedicated ship. Come back when you flown highly effective dedicated ship that is Arazu for 100+ hours. Then your opinion will matter. Go ask any experienced FC what will they prefer in a standard gang Falcon or Arazu. Here... i even bothered to gather some evidence for you. The stats of lost recons from killboards of well known PvP alliances. Took a couple of pages, sorted by losses. BOB Minmatar 11 Caldari 13 Gallente 4 Amarr 2 RA Minmatar 18 Caldari 13 Gallente 6 Amarr 1 The more useful certain recon, the more it will be used and lost. Therefore we can say that recons that are lost less frequently are less useful and underpowered. are u crazy? u cant make a statistic without the numbers of ship used in combat!! 6 gallente recons lost RA??? but how often they use gallente recons? 13 caldari lost?? how many are in battle? so 13/? 6/? your post is carp.
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 10:18:00 - [89] Edited by: Kirja on 08/06/2008 10:20:56 Originally by: Ynos Fukse your post is carp. Your ability to make logical assumptions and conclusions is crap. There is a correlation between losses in certain ship class and how often it is used in combat. The more often it is used the more often it will be lost. What you want to say that Arazus are not killed as often as Rapiers because they are so much better and survive more easily. Well that is crap. Go ahead and study statistics. I am not going to do your homework. You may start doing your homework by checking AAA killboard for example (simply because they have an aggregate "ships flown" statistics). Rapiers, Huggins and falcons are all in TOP 10 ship flown. Arazu is faaar behind that.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.08 11:51:00 - [90] You don't need a Domi scram or anything silly like that. Nor do you need both ECCM and sensor booster - I'd rate the ECCM as more useful. So... Arazu Covops cloak, stuff MWD II, 3x RSD II, Disruptor II, Conjunctive ECCM 3x ODI II, Nano II 2x Polycarbons That gives you 3384 m/s. The cheaper option is 2x Aux thrusters, 2x ODI II, 2x nano II, giving you 2947 m/s. Without the sensor booster, you can lock to 140 km and have, with ECCM, 51 sensor strength (actually, you can overheat this to 58.4). Overheated scram range is 57 km. Actually, the Lachesis works a lot better though. 3x HML II (FOFs), stuff MWD II, ECCM, 3x RSD II, Disruptor II, sensor booster or ECCM 3x ODI II 2x Polycarbons. Gives 3344 m/s (2813 m/s with cheaper option). Lock range is 175 km, sensor strength is 58.8, 67.7 overheated! If you fit a sensor booster in the spare slot, you get 250 km lock range; if another ECCM, sensor strength from 108 to 141, with heat! I'd use the extra ECCM, because it'll only take 10 seconds or so to burn into lock range. So Falcon uncloaks at 200 km. You get within lock range in 10 seconds and apply damps, after locking, at 160 km or so, with a ~0.75-0.80 chance of getting the single damp hit required, with the odds increasing as you burn towards it. The Falcon tries to jam you, assuming 2 racial and 3 nonracial ECM, it has 0.66 chance of failing, even using all jammers. If you overheat your ECCM, that chance increases to 0.73. Note this all assumes a Falcon has had some time to prepare the field. If it uncloaks at 100 km it'll be damped and scrammed in 15 seconds. I appreciate that these fits are specifically designed to counter Falcons, but we're discussing whether the Gallente Recons are viable in this role, and I believe that they are.

Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.08 15:40:00 - [91] Originally by: Gypsio III we're discussing whether the Gallente Recons are viable in this role, and I believe that they are. At that rate the Falcon knows he's facing an Arazu, fits 2 sensor boosters and 2 Gallente racials. Game Over. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
XXChronosXX Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.08 15:45:00 - [92] Edited by: XXChronosXX on 08/06/2008 15:46:05 Originally by: Gypsio III Silly stuff So well done you have managed to use one ship to counter another when a ship like a curse would do it better. The falcon is still removing one ship from the fight (or more if it gets off some jams) and your only removing one ship from the fight. Chances are the falcon will jam you one time and it will warp. So what are you trying to say Mr.Falconpilot that Arazus are in game just to badly counter another ship? Face it arazus suck it's obvious, any arazu pilot will tell you they do.
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.06.08 17:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Gypsio III we're discussing whether the Gallente Recons are viable in this role, and I believe that they are. At that rate the Falcon knows he's facing an Arazu, fits 2 sensor boosters and 2 Gallente racials. Game Over. -Liang :facepalm: I included 2 Gallente racials in the model. I give up.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.08 17:33:00 - [94] Edited by: Vladimir Norkoff on 08/06/2008 17:36:08 Originally by: Gypsio III Naivete. Nice little scenario you've built there. Just burn on over to the Falcon and damp it. Good plan. But what happens if the Falcon's gangmates decide they don't want you to do that? In case you weren't aware, there are these things called nano-ships. Kinda popular from what I hear. They are very much like your Arazu/Lach set-ups, but they do this thing called "move very fast". They tend to go a bit quicker than 3km/s, and they have these inconvenient things mounted to them called "weapons". And they usually use those weapons to (edit) violently violate slower expensive ships with no tanks. It's shocking, I know. But it happens. Also, sometimes the opposing gangmates will also send these nasty little things called "drones" after you. They can be fast kinda like nano-ships, but are a little easier to kill. They still (edit) violently violate slower expensive ships though, so be careful. And once and awhile, though not often, the gangmates will also try to lob missiles or shoot at you with long-range guns. And yeah, the missiles and ammo usually goes faster than 3km/s too. Just so you know. And finally, some rather unfair people are aware the Recons such as the Arazu/Lach tend to be somewhat lacking in the tank department. Being the unfair and unsporting people that they are, they will occassionally try to shoot the Recons first to gain a quick firepower advantage. I agree, it's completely uncool and an exploit tbfh imo, but CCP still lets them get away with it. Just so you know. But, ummm, good luck with that nifty plan of yours. EDIT - Ok, so the word for violent non-consenual intercourse is censored. Taxman V: Back in Black
XXChronosXX Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.08 17:36:00 - [95] Originally by: Gypsio III :facepalm: I included 2 Gallente racials in the model. I give up. Then try 4 gallente racials with 3 sig distortion amps and 2 sensor boosters.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.08 18:45:00 - [96] Originally by: Gypsio III Almost pure win You don't need a scrambler on a damp ship you want to use at range. Put on 3/4 damps, range rigs, and go to 175km, that suffices. The closer you get, the better for your mates. You will always be superior to the Falcon. For even more advanced dampener action, get a mate with a damp range warfare link.
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 20:10:00 - [97] Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Gypsio III Almost pure win You don't need a scrambler on a damp ship you want to use at range. Put on 3/4 damps, range rigs, and go to 175km, that suffices. The closer you get, the better for your mates. You will always be superior to the Falcon. For even more advanced dampener action, get a mate with a damp range warfare link. and what stops a falcon that is sitting at 200km from jamming you and 3-5 mates of yours? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Ruciza The Feminists	Posted - 2008.06.08 20:40:00 - [98] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Gypsio III Almost pure win You don't need a scrambler on a damp ship you want to use at range. Put on 3/4 damps, range rigs, and go to 175km, that suffices. The closer you get, the better for your mates. You will always be superior to the Falcon. For even more advanced dampener action, get a mate with a damp range warfare link. and what stops a falcon that is sitting at 200km from jamming you and 3-5 mates of yours? ECCM and damps? Hello?
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:00:00 - [99] Edited by: Grimpak on 08/06/2008 22:00:41 Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Ruciza Originally by: Gypsio III Almost pure win You don't need a scrambler on a damp ship you want to use at range. Put on 3/4 damps, range rigs, and go to 175km, that suffices. The closer you get, the better for your mates. You will always be superior to the Falcon. For even more advanced dampener action, get a mate with a damp range warfare link. and what stops a falcon that is sitting at 200km from jamming you and 3-5 mates of yours? ECCM and damps? Hello? damps can't hit at that range with the same efficacy as ECM, and ECCM is still failable. I've managed to jam a BS with a ECCM for 2 minutes, failed 3 cycles and jammed the same BS again for other 5 minutes, using a falcon with 3 sig dist amps and a racial with 4/4 skills. granted it was an apoc but still. edit: clarity added. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.


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