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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:28:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Karanth
"GTFOOJ" is the stock answer, but the OP deserves something more, I see.
If you can't understand what Jita is, what people are like, and/or how computer equipment and connections to servers far away work, you need to hand in your "life" licence now, since you are obviously one of the many people who deserves to win a Darwin Award, yet somehow manage to avoid it each year.
You know, I disagree with OP's hostile stance, but I also disagree that handling a few hundred players in a single system without lag is some monumental task. Its really not. CCP is just cheap.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: ShardowRhino
well maybe if you whiney fools STOPPED going to jita to buy everything JITA wouldnt be so Frakin laggy. Jita is just like every other system in EVE as far as CCP's stand point. The cause of the lag is thanks to the player base,not CCP's "incompetence".
This is dumb. Obviously individual players can't control the rest of the playerbase. The system needs to account for the traffic, the traffic obviously can't account for the system. Its like when there's a fleet fight, do you talk to the enemy fleet and agree to only bring X number of ships to the fight? No, because that'd be dumb. Its not realistic to expect a self-policing playerbase.
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Ron Bacardi
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:39:00 -
[63]
Interesting. I've gone in and out of Jita without more than a few seconds delay with ~800 people in local several times. With 500 people, I experience no delay. I wouldnt consider myself an expert on the matter however as i make it a point to NOT GO TO ******* JITA.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: DubanFP
Edited by: DubanFP on 09/06/2008 00:52:59
Well don't forget that eve was made over 5 years ago and originally had only a few thousand accounts early in it's creation. I mean EVE started budget, there's no doubt about that. The problem is short of rewriting EVE from the ground up and hoping that you don't leave anything importaint out, which will happen, there's really not much they can do about how they originally coded it.
I mean it would be a huge task to rewrite EVE from the ground up on what they've slowly built up over 5 years as well as the changes that are continually happening. Not to mention the fact that it could damage the optimizations they've done over this time. Considering the limits they're stuck with they really do have a lot of computing power and high tech equipment.
That's not really true. Python and C++ are interoperable, you could actually profile the client and just optimize specific parts. Thanks to the 80/20 rule, 80% of the processing time hangs up on 20% of the functionality. That's not that crazy of a rewrite. While they're at it they can come up with a better mechanism for security besides encrypting the frames and compressing them.
Likewise, porting code that was developed over code that was built over 5 years doesn't take 5 years to do.
Its a matter of priorities. If performance was a priority for CCP, then we wouldn't have performance issues. I don't think the answer is just to tell people to self-police and avoid doing things because the software isn't build efficiently enough to handle the features it brags about.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 05:53:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ron Bacardi
Interesting. I've gone in and out of Jita without more than a few seconds delay with ~800 people in local several times. With 500 people, I experience no delay. I wouldnt consider myself an expert on the matter however as i make it a point to NOT GO TO ******* JITA.
Yeah, I was just picking a number at random. Switch it with 1000, 2000, etc, we're still not talking about huge numbers of people. The game only has 35k people on at peak times from what I've seen. Even if 10% of the entire population was in Jita you're only talking 3500 people, executing like one action every 30 seconds or so. That's 116 transactions per second, not exactly a staggering amount.
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Andrue
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Posted - 2008.06.09 07:35:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Declan Intaki
So here we are... again.....
Jita has now been completely lagged out for 4 hours so that nobody can enter or exit.
Bravo CCP! What a wonderful product you are charging your customers for.
And the official CCP response: "we are working with IBM on a super computer", is now after 2 years frankly looking more like an insult than a joke.
If you have been "working" (as in putting man hours every day into developing this "super computer", why isn't there some sort of progress report - after two years?? Come one.....!
CCP's reputation for disrespect towards it's player base is bad enough as it is(How are you, t20?). Surely there's no need to add outright mocking to the list....!?
Just come clean and admit that you are unable to solve anything, and that this super computer is in fact NOT something that any player should expect to see in his or her life time. Just tell it like it is - for a change...
Jita lag is caused by too many people trying to get into Jita.
Like you.
--
(Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Kira Direll
Niflhel
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Posted - 2008.06.09 07:40:00 -
[67]
heh. i stayed away from jite for 1 and a half year now (as well as motsu, etc) and i can't really understand the *****ing about lag now. :) where i am, the prices are ok to good, i have no lag and i sell almost as fast as in jita.
i occurred me that i never had any salvage thief either. strange things happen if you stay out of the carebear blob. *g*
---
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Billy Merc
Pilots Of Honour
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.09 08:09:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Billy Merc on 09/06/2008 08:09:59
u are approching this argument the wrong way...try...
WhyTF is ccp focusing more on new content than they are on this roumor...super duper hamster wheel they call a IBM supercomputer...
and 2nd
WTF are the marketing the hell out of eve when it cant handle on a good day the people they have now...
well just food for thought...not that im *****in because this is eve...*****ing gets u no where :)
oh and btw answer is money just incase ya have cognitive issues
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777866
Voice your opinion on the GTC sales changes in the above CSM thread |
Raikov Vanskenski
Ever Flow
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Posted - 2008.06.09 08:20:00 -
[69]
Here's an idea. Instead of trying to get into Jita for 4 HOURS STRAIGHT, go outside and do something else.
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 08:26:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Raikov Vanskenski
Here's an idea. Instead of trying to get into Jita for 4 HOURS STRAIGHT, go outside and do something else.
when the market is centralised to make it easier for people to buy what they want and people try to use it ( all games do this) and it ****s up people understandably get upset.
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Bombacla
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 08:33:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Yeah, I was just picking a number at random. Switch it with 1000, 2000, etc, we're still not talking about huge numbers of people. The game only has 35k people on at peak times from what I've seen. Even if 10% of the entire population was in Jita you're only talking 3500 people, executing like one action every 30 seconds or so. That's 116 transactions per second, not exactly a staggering amount.
you click your mouse only twice a minute while playing? very relaxed playstyle you have going on there, you must smoke some good stuff
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2008.06.09 08:57:00 -
[72]
What lag in Jita???? On a Sunday?? Cant be true.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:14:00 -
[73]
The real solution is that you should move to Australia. Peak Jita traffic during our prime-time zones is about 3-400. It's far more manageable. People need to stop being so pedantic about 2 things and the problem will be solved:
1. Playing during their prime-time because of it's so-called 'covenience'. This is ridiculous. Drive home from work, get up at stupid hours of the night, rearrange your life to suit EVE. Problem fixzored.
2. Living in countries where the majority of EVE players also live. This is simple arrogance. If you can't be bothered or don't have the capacity to spend thousands of dollars uprooting your life to move elsewhere to make sure that you can get into Jita, then you don't deserve to complain.
Am I right? c/d
Oh, you could also go to some of the other market hubs. Actually, stuff that. It's to complex and hard to do compared to my far more simple ideas.
Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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Zulu Six
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Declan Intaki
So here we are... again.....
Jita
This is as far as I got. It's Jita. If you don't like it, buy/sell/trade somewhere else.
I am Havohej's alt. I would post with my main, but it's banned vOv |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:17:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Declan Intaki
Jita has now been completely lagged out
Jita? Lagged on a sunday? Surely you jest.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Huurtney Gurdsen
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Posted - 2008.06.09 09:17:00 -
[76]
I've been playing Eve for six months.
I was told at the beginning 'DONT GO TO JITA'
I've never been.
This is what is known as heeding sensible advice.
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ShardowRhino
Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: ShardowRhino
well maybe if you whiney fools STOPPED going to jita to buy everything JITA wouldnt be so Frakin laggy. Jita is just like every other system in EVE as far as CCP's stand point. The cause of the lag is thanks to the player base,not CCP's "incompetence".
This is dumb. Obviously individual players can't control the rest of the playerbase. The system needs to account for the traffic, the traffic obviously can't account for the system. Its like when there's a fleet fight, do you talk to the enemy fleet and agree to only bring X number of ships to the fight? No, because that'd be dumb. Its not realistic to expect a self-policing playerbase.
This is pure fail,looking at your post im quoting and the one that came before it shows how mentally slow you are.
First off don't quote me without reading the entire post. you just look like a fool. If you did read the whole post and quoted me and still said the stupid stuff you posted, your really a foolish nub.
First off i never suggested anything about a self"policed" player base. Nor did i suggest anyone try to control other people. I'll say it again so maybe you MIGHT understand it this time around. if you dont like jita then don't go. Don't buy your gear in jita. By not going to jita that is -1player sitting in jita. that is -x amount of sales made IN jita.
By not buying and selliing in jita you remove part of the problem.The more people buy outside of jita the more it encourages industrial players to also stay out of jita. The broader the market is outside of jita further reduces the workload on jita because you,the industrialist and other players stay out of jita by purchasing goods outside of jita. Its a simple answer to a problem caused by simple minded people.
its supply and demand. theres no demand for goods outside of jita so there is no supply. If you buy outside of jita you create demand for goods which industrialists will move to stock. the more people buy in jita the less your going to see on local markets.
Stay the hell out of jita. buy outside of jita. help feed orphaned mintard babies so they can grow up healthy and make good slaves. if you cannot understand this then you are truly DUMB.
As for your other post, that is also moronic. Not only do you have a ton of players doing all sorts of activities but you have loads of transactions going on between players. how someone can think that jita is somehow equal to just a big group of players hanging around is beyond me.
as for blob fights and lag, think,try a bit, and think of how many ships are in the fight. how many different mods are on each ship. how many players are in the fight and all the other crap going on in the area that the server needs to track. Then think of how many different commands the server is trying to process all at once.
if you want to avoid lag in blobfests, follow the jita answer and stay out of them,not that i would beleive you if you said youve ever been in one before. the less stress you put on the server the smoother **** goes. if you want an example, try running every program you have on your computer and get that cpu going at 90+% and max out your ram and see how well it responds to your commands.
im not sure how so many people can be so damn mentally challenged but still find a way to operate a computer to prove how challenged they are. its amazing really...absolutely fuking amazing! man your dumb....
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Fifth Horseman
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:53:00 -
[78]
Yeah, because god forbid that CCP ever be expected to supply anything they promised or implied, rather than keep pumping the server full of irrelevant nonsense like ambulation or to a lesser extent FW.
---
Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 12:37:00 -
[79]
Originally by: ShardowRhino
I'll say it again so maybe you MIGHT understand it this time around. if you dont like jita then don't go. Don't buy your gear in jita. By not going to jita that is -1player sitting in jita. that is -x amount of sales made IN jita.
You're misunderstanding me. I understood what you were saying, its just that if you think that is a solution to the problem then you don't understand how multiplayer games work and you don't understand how competitive systems work. So long as people can get good prices in Jita, they will go to Jita to sell things. Jita may as well just be called "the optimal choice" for selling, that's why its so crowded to begin with. So you're telling people in a competitive system not to do whats optimal. That just isn't going to happen. You're asking people to police themselves into predicting and negating lag by avoiding bottlenecks. If you've managed to drive a car by this point in your life maybe you'll grasp that what you're suggesting just doesn't work.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Ron Bacardi
Interesting. I've gone in and out of Jita without more than a few seconds delay with ~800 people in local several times. With 500 people, I experience no delay. I wouldnt consider myself an expert on the matter however as i make it a point to NOT GO TO ******* JITA.
Yeah, I was just picking a number at random. Switch it with 1000, 2000, etc, we're still not talking about huge numbers of people. The game only has 35k people on at peak times from what I've seen. Even if 10% of the entire population was in Jita you're only talking 3500 people, executing like one action every 30 seconds or so. That's 116 transactions per second, not exactly a staggering amount.
Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about. 
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
The Tzar
Malicious Intentions
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:26:00 -
[81]
Hoho heehee, how much fun we have with the 'i wants' of the eve world.
A node has a maxium amount of 'activity' that can occur within it. The problem therefore is actually the players trying to cram into this one system.
As it has been said, if CCP made it bigger, more people would (like a lost puppy) come back to this terrible system and create the same lag.
The only other alternative would be to put a player limit on each system at a point WELL below lag levels for the player with the worst front end performance.
But then you would complain about this as well...
Out of the thousands of clear, lag free systems why do you continue to return to this one?
There are plenty of other market hubs out there, if I have to hold your hand to show you I WILL gank you before you reach your destination.
Thankyou for flying with Yarrr Air, have a pleasant rebirth.
__________________________________________
'Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear intelligent
until they speak'
__________________________________________ |
Karanth
Eve's Brothers of Destiny
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:26:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 09/06/2008 12:52:09
Originally by: ShardowRhino
I'll say it again so maybe you MIGHT understand it this time around. if you dont like jita then don't go. Don't buy your gear in jita. By not going to jita that is -1player sitting in jita. that is -x amount of sales made IN jita.
You're misunderstanding me. I understood what you were saying, its just that if you think that is a solution to the problem then you don't understand how multiplayer games work and you don't understand how competitive systems work. So long as people can get good prices in Jita, they will go to Jita to sell things. Jita may as well just be called "the optimal choice" for selling, that's why its so crowded to begin with. So you're telling people in a competitive system not to do whats optimal. That just isn't going to happen. You're asking people to police themselves into predicting and negating lag by avoiding bottlenecks. If you've managed to drive a car by this point in your life maybe you'll grasp that what you're suggesting just doesn't work.
Edited to add - The reality is that when there's a traffic jam you can't tell cars to stop driving that way, you can only build a better system to avoid the bottlenecks. So long as theres' a frustrating lag problem there you will always see these posts and responding one by one with "stop going there" just isn't ever going to solve anything. At least if you look at CCP's website, they're hiring C++ engineers to write their next MMO and to rewrite the network layer for this one in order to help mitigate these issues. So its not like they haven't taken notice. Hopefully though we'll see some improvements sooner rather than later.
You are wrong twice. First, if it takes 4 hours to sit and stare at a black screen, it is NOT the "optimal" way to do it. And when there is a traffic jam, many cities will have huge signs saying "This way lies certain doom, choose an alternate route". Jita has this in the form of a huge red blob on the map, and anyone with higher brain function should be able to heed the warnings.
Alternate hubs have been listed. Alternate activities have been suggested. The OP is fail, pure and simple, if he thinks CCP is to blame for this. Think of it this way: Jita, on a slow day, has more people in it than CCP has employees.
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.06.09 13:39:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Karanth
Think of it this way: Jita, on a slow day, has more people in it than CCP has employees.
So does every other game in the history of gaming? My point was that there's a reason people go there. Either eliminate the reason or eliminate the lag. You can't control the playerbase though. If people are cramming there then there is a reason why people are cramming there. Or you could just pointlessly continue to tell people to stop going to Jita. And stop fighting in fleet fights. And not play during peak hours. And etc. Or maybe CCP should just fix the issue.
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brinelan
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.06.09 14:11:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
You know, I disagree with OP's hostile stance, but I also disagree that handling a few hundred players in a single system without lag is some monumental task. Its really not. CCP is just cheap.
I suppose from your response that you are able to program a way for this to happen that their programmers haven't been able to do? And ya I hardly see much lag in Jita unless were talking well over 600 people.
Just a thought, you all that are seeing tons and tons of lag at times when others aren't seeing it are you SURE it isnt your comp or isp? Client side lag is an issue as well... If you aren't sure of what to do, there is a technology forum with a ton of suggestions and things to look at. Or, if you are a windows user format and reinstall windows every now and again.. you would be shocked and amazed how much crud in windows slows things down.. and makes you take longer to session change and such (longer grind time on your disks etc = longer session changes).
But ya, stay out of Jita on Sundays. Remote trade skills, courier contracts (let someone else deal with the lag), and sellin Sobaseki and Perimeter (Heck, aywhere.. people pay more for NOT having to go to jita you know).
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Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.09 14:21:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Karanth
Think of it this way: Jita, on a slow day, has more people in it than CCP has employees.
So does every other game in the history of gaming? My point was that there's a reason people go there. Either eliminate the reason or eliminate the lag. You can't control the playerbase though. If people are cramming there then there is a reason why people are cramming there. Or you could just pointlessly continue to tell people to stop going to Jita. And stop fighting in fleet fights. And not play during peak hours. And etc. Or maybe CCP should just fix the issue.
So please, tell us how to "fix" the issue. Preferably, list which algorithms CCP probably uses and which ones they should use to get better performance. Support your arguments and show your work.
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Kolwrath
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:06:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Fifth Horseman
Yeah, because god forbid that CCP ever be expected to supply anything they promised or implied, rather than keep pumping the server full of irrelevant nonsense like ambulation or to a lesser extent FW.
Uhmm CCP never promised or implied that they would *fix* Jita.
Nice try at a troll though.
If they worked only on "fixing" Jita, you would be right back here complaining that they aren't adding any new content or features.
Originally by: Chaos Space Marines
Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:08:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Originally by: Karanth
Think of it this way: Jita, on a slow day, has more people in it than CCP has employees.
So does every other game in the history of gaming? My point was that there's a reason people go there. Either eliminate the reason or eliminate the lag. You can't control the playerbase though. If people are cramming there then there is a reason why people are cramming there. Or you could just pointlessly continue to tell people to stop going to Jita. And stop fighting in fleet fights. And not play during peak hours. And etc. Or maybe CCP should just fix the issue.
So please, tell us how to "fix" the issue. Preferably, list which algorithms CCP probably uses and which ones they should use to get better performance. Support your arguments and show your work.
Many solutions for the Jita problem have been proposed. One is to simply make it possible to see market prices globally and not per region. That way more people will go the closest place with a good price and not simply assume that they will find everything at a good price in Jita (esp. when they see from far that Jita is too expensive).
This has to be in-game, eve-central.com is too cumbersome.
EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
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Kolwrath
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:20:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Many solutions for the Jita problem have been proposed. One is to simply make it possible to see market prices globally and not per region. That way more people will go the closest place with a good price and not simply assume that they will find everything at a good price in Jita (esp. when they see from far that Jita is too expensive).
This has to be in-game, eve-central.com is too cumbersome.
Yeah uhh no. The database load on that would be insane. You think lag is bad now? Hah.
Restricting market data by region restricts the return dataset to a manageble amount of rows. If you did that same query on a universe level ... man it would be lag tastic.
Sorry but that solution will *not* work.
Pro tip: Things are never "that simple". If they were ... CCP probably would have implemented it. 
Originally by: Chaos Space Marines
Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:22:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Tarminic on 09/06/2008 16:22:47
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Many solutions for the Jita problem have been proposed. One is to simply make it possible to see market prices globally and not per region. That way more people will go the closest place with a good price and not simply assume that they will find everything at a good price in Jita (esp. when they see from far that Jita is too expensive).
This has to be in-game, eve-central.com is too cumbersome.
A decent idea in theory, but let's look at this from a technical perspective.
This may be hard to understand without knowing a bit about databases, but the best way to get performance out of a specific SQL query is to eliminate as many entries as fast and as simply as possible. I.E., do a simple check to find ten entries in 10,000 and then do a more complex check to find three entries in the remaining ten.
In order to look up prices in Jita, this is what the database has to do:
1. Check through all open market orders in the database for a certain system ID (I.E., Jita's ID)*
2. Check those orders against a certain product ID or product group (i.e. what the user is looking for)
3. Send the information to the client
4. The client sorts it and displays it
But if you make it possible to view prices across all regions, here is what happens:
1. Check through all open market orders in the database for a certain product ID or product group
2. Send the information to the client
3. The client sorts it and displays it
This may seem simpler, but it would actually take much more time for the second query because the database is having to find much more stuff than it would previously. In addition, this increases the size or number of packets that have to be sent to the eve client in order to display the market orders. All of this extra information has to be transmitted from the database to the server and then from the server to the client.
I could go into specific details on how much less efficient it would be than previously by guesstimating the percentage of total market orders in Jita, but it would be long and drawn out and wouldn't really convince anyone who isn't convinced anyway.
*Queries like this are possibly cached at the server level due to how common they are
EDIT: Beaten by Kolwrath 
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Kolwrath
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2008.06.09 16:26:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Tarminic
EDIT: Beaten by Kolwrath
yeah but your explanation was better 
Originally by: Chaos Space Marines
Do you hear the voices, too?!?!
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