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CSM Formal Meeting 4. Thursday 12th June. 20:00hours Eve Time

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CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:01:00 - [31] Cleaned, please stay on topic and attempt to discuss the issues at hand without resorting to personal insults.

Orion Moonstar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Jade Constantine Delegated to: Jade Constantine CSM should vote for its own chairman How on earth does this make sense. It's like asking a president about to get impeached if impeaching should be allowed. This should be delegated to someone that isn't GS/you/people you muted
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Orion Moonstar Originally by: Jade Constantine Delegated to: Jade Constantine CSM should vote for its own chairman How on earth does this make sense. It's like asking a president about to get impeached if impeaching should be allowed. This should be delegated to someone that isn't GS/you/people you muted How about the fact I want to measure to get through? I want it written into the constitution and I want to make sure all future CSM Chairs are elected by the committee. Kinda gives me a decent motive to make it happen doncha think?
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Jade Constantine How about the fact I want to measure to get through? I want it written into the constitution and I want to make sure all future CSM Chairs are elected by the committee. Kinda gives me a decent motive to make it happen doncha think? That's not the point being made.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:27:00 - [36] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment. Sorry Darius, couldn't find a way to do it this time. Still, we do have two meetings this week, I'm just posting up the details of the sunday one where you can bring up your votes and motions and whatnot. As we all agreed last week this mid-week one is for confirming the issues are properly documented and sent to Ank. Make sure you get yours done and emailed by the deadline on thursday and all well.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment. Sorry Darius, couldn't find a way to do it this time. Still, we do have two meetings this week, I'm just posting up the details of the sunday one where you can bring up your votes and motions and whatnot. As we all agreed last week this mid-week one is for confirming the issues are properly documented and sent to Ank. Make sure you get yours done and emailed by the deadline on thursday and all well. so why not have them saturday/sunday? how does it make any sense to not allow the elected members to participate?
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment. Sorry Darius, couldn't find a way to do it this time. Still, we do have two meetings this week, I'm just posting up the details of the sunday one where you can bring up your votes and motions and whatnot. As we all agreed last week this mid-week one is for confirming the issues are properly documented and sent to Ank. Make sure you get yours done and emailed by the deadline on thursday and all well. I never agreed to this meeting. It was scheduled so that American attendees could not make it. This is actually your second attempt at this. Should I re-forward you the note from CCP regarding meeting scheduling from the last time?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Aprudena Gist so why not have them saturday/sunday? how does it make any sense to not allow the elected members to participate? We're having one on Sunday. This thursday one is a sign-off meeting to ensure we've got relevant documentation agreed for all the ISSUEs submission templates we're taking to Iceland (agreed from the previous weeks). They need to be bundled up and sent to CCP by ANK by thursday evening at the latest. The meeting in this case is a formality to let us sort out the last issues and double check everyone has done their stuff. If we had to wait till sunday we'd be flying to Iceland with no Issues to discuss. While I can understand that might make Darius' workload a little easier its probably not the best use of our time or CCP's ISK.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Aprudena Gist so why not have them saturday/sunday? how does it make any sense to not allow the elected members to participate? We're having one on Sunday. This thursday one is a sign-off meeting to ensure we've got relevant documentation agreed for all the ISSUEs submission templates we're taking to Iceland (agreed from the previous weeks). They need to be bundled up and sent to CCP by ANK by thursday evening at the latest. The meeting in this case is a formality to let us sort out the last issues and double check everyone has done their stuff. If we had to wait till sunday we'd be flying to Iceland with no Issues to discuss. While I can understand that might make Darius' workload a little easier its probably not the best use of our time or CCP's ISK. i guess if all your trying to do is steal votes sure.
Omber Zombie Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Jade Constantine The meeting in this case is a formality to let us sort out the last issues and double check everyone has done their stuff. in that case why aren't all the issues posted in the Proclamations forum for everyone to see? As long as they are all there with the relevant CSM reps commenting, I see no point to this meeting. oh, and as an alternate I again will be unavailable due to timezone issues.
Chalion	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Aprudena Gist If we had to wait till sunday we'd be flying to Iceland with no Issues to discuss. While I can understand that might make Darius' workload a little easier its probably not the best use of our time or CCP's ISK. Not my CSM chairperson.
HClChicken GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:31:00 - [43] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Aprudena Gist so why not have them saturday/sunday? how does it make any sense to not allow the elected members to participate? We're having one on Sunday. This thursday one is a sign-off meeting to ensure we've got relevant documentation agreed for all the ISSUEs submission templates we're taking to Iceland (agreed from the previous weeks). They need to be bundled up and sent to CCP by ANK by thursday evening at the latest. The meeting in this case is a formality to let us sort out the last issues and double check everyone has done their stuff. If we had to wait till sunday we'd be flying to Iceland with no Issues to discuss. While I can understand that might make Darius' workload a little easier its probably not the best use of our time or CCP's ISK. It's not a question of making a workload esier, it's that you continually schedule meetings that conflict with at least two delegates, and one alternate. There could be more than this, but as far as I know you are forcing 2 elected delegates to skip out of their paying job, or visiting time with their family so you can get an extra hour of sleep. The meeting doesn't have to wait until sunday, and when you are unyielding to the other delegates needs it shows how well you are at doing your primary job of CSM, that of scheduling meetings. If you can't get that right, then how can you do the secondary job, that you gave yourself, of moderation?
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:42:00 - [44] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 11/06/2008 01:43:13 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment. Sorry Darius, couldn't find a way to do it this time. Chair, could I please ask what "a way to do it this time" means? Despite over 50 emails flinging their way around the internet today on the CSM group email there was nothing that I saw asking Council members about their time availability. Similarly I made a comment above about using the third forum channel here for what is its apparent purpose, and making it clear to everyone which matters they will be receiving guaranteed responses from CCP about as we put them forward. The matters for this coming meeting are not ones which actually need everyone online at the same moment. Aside, given that you have scheduled this when at least two elected members cannot make it (and can clearly be deemed already to have sent their apologies, which I am sure they will also put on record before the meeting if you still go ahead on this schedule) then have you asked the top two pilots on the Alternates list (ie #10 and #11) to stand by, and have they indicated that they are able to make this timeslot? IZ My principles
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:23:00 - [45] This Thursday meeting is there purely to check we have the adequate documentation for the issues we have already voted for. AND to vote on the individual elements of multipart issues we've included on principle but haven't yet individually decided on. Its not going to be a formal meeting in the form of agenda and administrative stuff, its mostly a document-checking collaborative session. Members that can't make this meeting are welcome to send in the votes on individual parts of LaVista's, yours, and Ank's multi-part issues and we'll record them for the record. As for the timing it can't be helped really, we had to do this by Thursday as you know. It can't wait till the weekend and on a weeknight we have an issue with whats doable for the US people is too late for some EURO people. I took a decision based on what we have to achieve at that meeting. If it turns out to be me, ANK and you and six sets of mailed in multi-part votes then we won't be officially quorate but we can still help ANK on the secretarial duties of assembling the documents for CCP. All these things have already been voted "yes" on principle and we are within our rights to send them on. Re the proposal to use the proclamations forum for this - we haven't yet been told what that forum is for, it won't be read only and in the current climate of extreme forum trolling/spam campaigns from a certain group I don't believe it will be a conducive environment for this. Also its a waste of effort on our part, we're assembly word docs that will be available for all CSM reps to examine via the eve-csm list at the moment. I see no reason to increase the administrative burden on everyone further by reproducing this stuff on another forum section. We'll get the job done. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:26:00 - [46] To be frank, provided it's not an actual voting meeting but rather an informal get-together where our opinions and such can be mailed in it's not really a big deal in my opinion.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:39:00 - [47] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 16:41:18 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON To be frank, provided it's not an actual voting meeting but rather an informal get-together where our opinions and such can be mailed in it's not really a big deal in my opinion. That was always the point Darius, its what I said when we brought it up last week. The formal meeting this week is Sunday 15th 18:00 hours. This one was always a document checking thing first and foremost. The mailed in votes we will need are on these 3 issues : UI (separate issues discussed in the op) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=783206 Forums (several issues discussed in op) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=778049 Economics (60 issues on PDF) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=782682 CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 18:06:00 - [48] So are you going to document check/editorialize like you did with hardins idea? Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Cursive Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 20:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy I feel it's unfair to relegate my issue with cynojammers and jumpbridges to Serenity Steele, a CSM representative who has no concept of the problems involved in this issue. He advocated a form of CONCORD in 0.0 space for god's sake. Life is unfair. I emphasize with your plight I really do. You're an awesome chairman. Really, you are.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 11/06/2008 22:19:16 Something I've just noticed whilst re-reading some stuff in preparation to complete my submission documents ... Originally by: Jade Constantine All items for submission need to be mailed to Ankhesentapemkah before by 01:00 hours on Thursday afternoon Originally by: Jade Constantine mailed to the CSM secretary (by csm mail address) by the deadline of 01:00 hours Thursday afternoon. Originally by: Jade Constantine To recap, these Issues need to be properly written up and mailed to Ankhesentapemkah by 01:00 hours - Thursday June 12th. Ignoring a moment that you've repeated yourself, the time is actually unclear and depends on your country of origin. In some countries the use of a 24-hour clock is normal at "01:00" would be read as 1am not pm, but given the "Thursday afternoon" you quoted twice I believe that 1pm (aka 13:00) was intended and will act accordingly. (I also don't believe it likely that Ankh is intending to be awake at 1am to edit them all!) IZ ps TQ came back early and stable yay! ps2. Jade: You didn't answer about the two Alternates My principles
Gabriel Darkefyre Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:37:00 - [51] Originally by: Inanna Zuni <Snip! - Post regarding Time confusions> A simple solution to this matter given that you guys are all in different timezones would be for you to make any future deadlines in 24 Hour Format using Standard In-Game Time as the guide.
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:41:00 - [52] OK I guess I post this question here for the CSM reps. Since I can not find a decent thread to post in that is not either a)buried on the 13 page or b) is not strewn with eye poking. I would like to understand how an issue is brought up to the CSM from the Assembly forum that has an overwhelming non support from the player base, that clearly does not have the support? It does not seem right. How can CCP sit there and with a straight face and look at the "suggestion" brought up by the CSM when the player base says they do not want it? Aren't you a little bit concerned that by pushing agendas that has no or very little support from the player base makes the CSM look foolish in the eyes of CCP? So when you do ask to push a "HOT BUTTON" item that has the support from the player base, CCP is not going to look at you and not take you seriously?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Originally by: Inanna Zuni <Snip! - Post regarding Time confusions> A simple solution to this matter given that you guys are all in different timezones would be for you to make any future deadlines in 24 Hour Format using Standard In-Game Time as the guide. Thats how we've been doing it so far.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:48:00 - [54] Originally by: Farrqua Aren't you a little bit concerned that by pushing agendas that has no or very little support from the player base makes the CSM look foolish in the eyes of CCP? So when you do ask to push a "HOT BUTTON" item that has the support from the player base, CCP is not going to look at you and not take you seriously? Takes personal judgement really. If an issue has 30 decent supports and 200 iterations of the same argument against by the same corp/pressure group then the issue can still be raised by the decision of a CSM rep. We all have to learn to spam filter the issue threads and ignore the background noise. Our job is to get what we believe are decent suggestions that will be of value to the player base on the agenda. Its not our task to be popular by agreeing with the barking of a mob. That said, I think we've presented a very good cross-section of issues for this first session that do represent all the best suggestions made on the assembly hall that could be raised within the time constraints and 7 day advance discussion rule. If you feel we've forgotten something important that will have been up for open discusion for the 7 day mark by sunday's meeting then feel free to ask one of us to take a look.
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Farrqua Aren't you a little bit concerned that by pushing agendas that has no or very little support from the player base makes the CSM look foolish in the eyes of CCP? So when you do ask to push a "HOT BUTTON" item that has the support from the player base, CCP is not going to look at you and not take you seriously? Takes personal judgement really. If an issue has 30 decent supports and 200 iterations of the same argument against by the same corp/pressure group then the issue can still be raised by the decision of a CSM rep. We all have to learn to spam filter the issue threads and ignore the background noise. Our job is to get what we believe are decent suggestions that will be of value to the player base on the agenda. Its not our task to be popular by agreeing with the barking of a mob. That said, I think we've presented a very good cross-section of issues for this first session that do represent all the best suggestions made on the assembly hall that could be raised within the time constraints and 7 day advance discussion rule. If you feel we've forgotten something important that will have been up for open discusion for the 7 day mark by sunday's meeting then feel free to ask one of us to take a look. No Jade, There is nothing in particular that I have in mind. I have no aspirations of any of the topics presented by the CSM or the player base. I just "try" to look at them with a different eye. (Playing Eve regularly for little over 5 years now I have learned to accept and adapt what has been handed down to me) I have been reading a lot of issues about "game mechanics". "I am not even going to touch the other crap that has to deal with Goons or your self." It is when I see a thread that has 20 support votes and 200 posts like you said. That is a red flag for me. When the thread came up about Changing ammo, and I saw 84 posts and 82 support, I just peaked at the initial post and knew that was a no brainer. When there is a disparity of the number of votes I have to wonder and I take the time to read some of the posts and gloss over the repeat threadnoghts and look for new posts that would easily be counted to show a majority of non-support.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:15:00 - [56] When are turning Titans into monster trucks getting on the docket it has more support than your ******** destructible outposts you role playing female love slave lady of the night you.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Fallorn When are turning Titans into monster trucks getting on the docket it has more support than your ******** destructible outposts you role playing female love slave lady of the night you. 200 ducks can quack at the same time, doesn't mean their composing an opera. And yes, I mean that goon threadnaughts mean nothing. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:37:00 - [58] As discussed during the last meeting, I will be unable to make the Thursday discussion due to previous non-negotiable commitments. Please arrange for an Alternate to stand in my place. /Serenity.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:38:00 - [59] Edited by: Fallorn on 11/06/2008 23:38:40 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Fallorn When are turning Titans into monster trucks getting on the docket it has more support than your ******** destructible outposts you role playing female love slave lady of the night you. 200 ducks can quack at the same time, doesn't mean their composing an opera. And yes, I mean that goon threadnaughts mean nothing. So your saying you would not give it any time at all even though you issue has less support just because you ducks masterbate to the thought of you. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:51:00 - [60] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Farrqua Aren't you a little bit concerned that by pushing agendas that has no or very little support from the player base makes the CSM look foolish in the eyes of CCP? So when you do ask to push a "HOT BUTTON" item that has the support from the player base, CCP is not going to look at you and not take you seriously? Takes personal judgement really. If an issue has 30 decent supports and 200 iterations of the same argument against by the same corp/pressure group then the issue can still be raised by the decision of a CSM rep. We all have to learn to spam filter the issue threads and ignore the background noise. Our job is to get what we believe are decent suggestions that will be of value to the player base on the agenda. Its not our task to be popular by agreeing with the barking of a mob. That said, I think we've presented a very good cross-section of issues for this first session that do represent all the best suggestions made on the assembly hall that could be raised within the time constraints and 7 day advance discussion rule. If you feel we've forgotten something important that will have been up for open discusion for the 7 day mark by sunday's meeting then feel free to ask one of us to take a look. Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Fallorn When are turning Titans into monster trucks getting on the docket it has more support than your ******** destructible outposts you role playing female love slave lady of the night you. 200 ducks can quack at the same time, doesn't mean their composing an opera. And yes, I mean that goon threadnaughts mean nothing. So anyone who opposes you is automatically a Goon and some insulting-sounding variety of animal, and as such their opinion can be discounted without further consideration? There are third-world dictators with less ego and chutzpah than that. ------------------ Fix the forums!

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