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Falkwen
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:12:00 -
[1]
What would you fly and why?
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Spider Silva
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:22:00 -
[2]
cnr easy, it has faster rate of fire and more damage as well, the golem is over rated, its only good aspect is the tractor beam bonus
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Steve Celeste
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:24:00 -
[3]
Not again....
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:46:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
this...
----------------------------------
Yes... this is my main.
Extreme Troll Slayer...
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Nu Wa
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:56:00 -
[5]
I think the reason people are still asking this is because:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
2) EFT players, the ROF bonus result shows up on EFT, painter damage bonus does not.
Paper DPS numbers jump out at you, but practical kill speed from bigger volley does not.
If someone just wants to afk and complete missions with minimum human interaction, then maybe cruise CNR is better.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
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Cheryl Winder
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
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Kyanzes
Utopian Research I.E.L.
The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:34:00 -
[8]
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
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MotoMissles
Rim Collection RC
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
Try a SEARCH before asking the questions that have already turned the dead horse to a pulp.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.11 14:52:00 -
[10]
The Golem is better overall. I guess most of those who rely only on paper dps to argue than the CNR is significantly better, have never tried one. |
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Spider Silva
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:02:00 -
[11]
ive tried both extensively, the golem is a lot worse damage wise, it fires over 2 seconds slower as well, cnr wins hands down for speed of completion.
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Amastat
Omegatech
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Posted - 2008.06.11 15:04:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Amastat on 11/06/2008 15:05:08
Golem is capable of having a very good tank, while having firepower at the same time. I don't think the CNR is not capable of tanking as well, while being able to deal great damage at the same time - as far as I can see.
CNR can no doubt outperform the Golem by a few hundred DPS, but the Golem will out-tank the CNR with ease too - so you could say its a tradeoff, but bother are closely the same in overall performance.
____________________
"All warfare is based on deception... we must seem unable...seem inactive...and crush him " - Sun Tzu |
Dagas Hunter
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Posted - 2008.06.11 17:41:00 -
[13]
If you're going to loot then Golem is the clear choice. More cargo space and better tractor beam. More high slots free. If you don't care about that then CNR might be better.
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JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
so true.
to op - smart people go for golem as it earns isk is much faster; lazy people stay with cnr and eventually got ganked as they need pretty expensive stuff to be somehow effective.
-
Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:25:00 -
[15]
CNR does better dps.
Golem is about as efficient at killing NPCs, due to it's higher alpha, cargo bay and tractorbeaming.
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE. |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Not again....
That's what I was thinking, too, but not for the same reason. I won't say why. |
PR0D AK71V
Mad Hamster Infestation
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:20:00 -
[17]
still waiting for 'my raven was fitted' post
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JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: James Lyrus
I would go with a CNR for PvP
for pvp I'd choose raven. if people see your cnr they'll probably blob you.
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Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks |
MotoMissles
Rim Collection RC
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2008.06.11 20:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Lyrus
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE.
Seriously? You'd field a 600 million isk ship in PvP? In fleet situations, maybe, but even then I'd stick with a regular Raven.
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Laou Tzu
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Posted - 2008.06.11 21:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Amastat
CNR can no doubt outperform the Golem by a few hundred DPS, but the Golem will out-tank the CNR with ease too - so you could say its a tradeoff, but bother are closely the same in overall performance.
pure bs, you do just as much if not more dps with the golem
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:00:00 -
[21]
Do you want to.....
1. Spend Billions on a permatanking Gist CNR and make yourself a suicide target
2. Use a t2 fitted golem in a 3 bcu permatank setup and be almost as quick as the gist cnr?
I followed the pattern on this and the Transport ships closely. Nobody was really that instrested in transport ships for afk haling since most people were using a badger etc. Suicide ganking came along and boom - people started wanting them and using them.
When the Golem first came out, lots of people were not that impressed with it compared to a gist fitted CNR, they did not see the point in spending months of training. Suicide gankers came in and ever since then, more and more people are selling their gist cnrs and buying t2 fitted golems for "almost" the same performance in cruise setups, or even 4 bcu bbq torp setups that outclass cnrs.
Golem does have 1 less slot than raven (due to 1 less rig slot) but it performes extreamly well for the AFK mission runner and with a cap booster, can do lvl5's solo.
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Billion Isk Mission |
DrunkMiner
Private Venture Enterprises
Safe And Fun Environment
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Posted - 2008.06.11 22:00:00 -
[22]
Right i have a golem and a cnr fitted roughly the same and in terms of tank and dps the golem wins hands down... hell in terms of m/s it wins aswell as i can easily fit an ab on a golem and keep a great tank while remaining cap stable. From what i can see yes u can engage more targets with a cnr but all it does is waterdown ur firepower overall so golem > cnr simple.
if at first u don't succeed, go back to EFT
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Opertone
SIEGE.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:44:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Opertone on 12/06/2008 04:46:08
golem >> CNR
1st point - less buttons to click, F1, F2, F3, F4 - F5 for painter
compared to F1, F2, F3, F4, F5, F6, F7
2nd point - more built in tanking bonuses on Golem
Golem = State Issue Raven in terms of Gun firepower - 25% ROF... ROF on missiles is not noticeable, since your missiles take some time to hit the target and you often get a wasted volley... approx. 10 seconds wasted on the volley fired when the target had already exploded.
Alpha Damage + painter signature - better than DPS overtime, which lets your enemy repair back up.
I am training for skill intensive Torpedo 5, Golem with 45 km long torpedoes.
I did a lot of research and i am sure that my stake is right.
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Jmanis Catharg
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.12 04:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:54:48
The only reason why anybody would say the Golem isn't as good as the CNR is because they fit Cruise Missiles when the damn thing is built for torps. Doesn't the Target Painter-per-level bonus and awesome PG to chuck on an afterburner make this pretty obvious?/
Quote:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Quote:
CNR does better dps.
lol wut?
*damn i feel dirty for saying that |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 12/06/2008 04:54:48
The only reason why anybody would say the Golem isn't as good as the CNR is because they fit Cruise Missiles when the damn thing is built for torps. Doesn't the Target Painter-per-level bonus and awesome PG to chuck on an afterburner make this pretty obvious?/
Quote:
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Quote:
CNR does better dps.
lol wut?
*damn i feel dirty for saying that
cruise pilot doesn't need missile bombardment or missile projection trained at all to be effective. also can hit out much farther than a torp pilot.
and yes the cnr will do more dps, however its not that easy to fit with torps. 7 launchers, 5% rof bonus per level, vs 4 launchers with a 100% damage bonus
anyways I would play a rouge
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AKULA UrQuan
Druuge Crimson Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:13:00 -
[26]
I took a long hard look at both of these ships. Then started training for a kronos. Figured Gallente BS V would be more usefull overall than caldari BS V.
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hellwarrior
Armoured Assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:20:00 -
[27]
golem does same dps as a normal raven it just has a higher volley amount.
overall dps is won by the cnr.
some of you need to learn how to calculate dps, and if that fails EFT warrior it a litte. |
Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.06.12 11:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: hellwarrior
golem does same dps as a normal raven it just has a higher volley amount.
overall dps is won by the cnr.
some of you need to learn how to calculate dps, and if that fails EFT warrior it a litte.
Thats a pretty bold statement.
I'd like to see your calculations that prove a golem only has the dps of a 'normal raven' because i'm fairly sure your calculations will be laughable.
Make sure to post your setups for both ships, if your above post is anything to go by, your setups should give me a good laugh, and i could use one today.
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Dryxonedes Sae
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:12:00 -
[29]
Golem, 4 launchers, 100% damage bonus, 8 equivalent.
Raven, 6 launchers, 25% RoF bonus, 8 equivalent.
Since someone asked to post a setup, and I really cannot be arsed because how to fit either ship is damn basic, let me post some "theoretical" numbers, and apply them to both ships.
Our "Chuck Norris Launcher", has a 10s RoF with applied skills. The "Chuck Norris Round-house Kick" does 100 damage of "uberleet unresistable" damage type. Now lets stick this same launcher on both ships.
On the golem, we get 4 launchers, doing 400 damage, every 10 seconds, rocket science inserted, 40dps.
Now, lets apply the 100% damage bonus, gives us 80dps.
Does anyone dispute those numbers? You do? Go back to kindergarten.
Now lets stick it on a T1 raven.
6 launchers, 600 damage, every 10 seconds. Oh my, that'd be 60dps yea? Sweet.
Now, lets apply a 25% RoF bonus. Careful, this is where the maths gets tricky. At level 5 (which face it, you should have, it's not THAT long), your RoF drops back to 7.5 seconds. 100 damage, over 7.5 seconds, gives a result of 13.33(33333333) dps, per launcher, multiplied by 6, and hot damn, that's 80dps.
Ok, now just in case someone who thought dps comparisons between a golem and T1 raven we're, let me quote "laughable", I believe both end up at 80dps, assuming for the same modules, the same skill levels. Admittedly, I'm far more comfortable fitting faction gear on a golem than a T1 raven, but that's a different story.
Back to the topic at hand now... Which to fly depends on your personal poison to be honest. A CNR doesn't need to be a 3bil isk fit to eat missions in a hurry, a base line faction fit does fit quite comfortably, performs incredibly (650+dps from a cruise fitted cnr - including drones). If it came to 0.0 ratting, absolutely I'd side with a torp fitted golem, but for running missions in empire, a baseline faction fitted CNR is what I own, and is what I'll keep flying as it does the job faster for me than a golem. As far as the gank risk goes, going faction instead of deadspace or officer reduces it a lot, as the profits are far leaner (sure, it's still there, but it's a lot riskier for the perps). |
Nu Wa
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:41:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Nu Wa on 12/06/2008 12:41:45
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Originally by: Nu Wa
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Ya didn't read my post through, I was rooting for the torp golem :)
The reason I say torp golem require more SP is because in order for Torp setup to work. Tech 2 Torp training is mandatory. Also Missile Projection and bombardment must be high too for javalins to hit that far. You also need range rigs instead of no brainer CCC.
On Cruise setup, T2 isn't required, explosion radiu/speed skills aren't required. You can basically have all skills at level 1 and still run l4 missions comfortably...this is why everybody and their dog have a CNR with CN cruise launchers, because when you are not using t2 ammo, CN launcher requires no skill and is better than T2 launcher even with specialization skill maxed.
THAT'S why I say torp golem require more SP, and many many people are reluctant to go with it. Hence the continue debate on CRUISE CNR vs. CRUISE Golem. For those of us that use torp, it is a no brainer..Golem
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.06.12 12:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Golem, 4 launchers, 100% damage bonus, 8 equivalent.
Raven, 6 launchers, 25% RoF bonus, 8 equivalent.
Since someone asked to post a setup, and I really cannot be arsed because how to fit either ship is damn basic, let me post some "theoretical" numbers, and apply them to both ships.
Ok, now just in case someone who thought dps comparisons between a golem and T1 raven we're, let me quote "laughable", I believe both end up at 80dps, assuming for the same modules, the same skill levels. Admittedly, I'm far more comfortable fitting faction gear on a golem than a T1 raven, but that's a different story.
Your comparissons and examples are a joke - you haven't posted any setups along with numbers & you are very biased by the way you factor in one ships bonus and exclude the other.
Your quite happy to use the ship bonus of the raven (the 25% ROF bonus), but you are not taking into consideration the target painter bonus on the golem, which boosts torpedo damage.
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Crellion
Art of War
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:22:00 -
[32]
Back at the time when these forums attracted the best talent around people like naughtyboy posted charts (dps charts) and if I remember correctly form those time a 25% rof bonus equals a 33% dps increase whereas a 25% dmg bonus equals a 25% dps increase (lol) ... if that is accurate (I think it is anyway) then the Raven out dps's the Golem presuming you can fit the same **** on and disregarding the painter. Essentially this means a cruise raven will outdamage a cruise golem most of the time...
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Jenny' JoJo
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:51:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 12/06/2008 14:52:48
Originally by: Crellion
Back at the time when these forums attracted the best talent around people like naughtyboy posted charts (dps charts) and if I remember correctly form those time a 25% rof bonus equals a 33% dps increase whereas a 25% dmg bonus equals a 25% dps increase (lol) ... if that is accurate (I think it is anyway) then the Raven out dps's the Golem presuming you can fit the same **** on and disregarding the painter. Essentially this means a cruise raven will outdamage a cruise golem most of the time...
he did those stats.
6 launcher raven + 33% = 8 launchers.
Golem = 8 launchers. Both do the same damage. However, golem can fit 4bcu permatank and raven cannot. Golem 1 volleys bc's and 2 volleys most cruisers. Raven takes as long killing a cruiser as killing a bs. Golem is actually cost effective using faction ammo, since use use around half the ammo due to more rof bonus etc.
People like golem because it is damm good for torps or afk cruise setups. People like raven because its universal. |
Laughlyn Vaughns
Lagos-Vaughn Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.12 15:30:00 -
[34]
I use my CNR for doing the missions and then i use my golem for salvage/looting its far superior looter than a catalyst 1000 times the price but looks bit prettier.
Bunch of Cargo Expander IIs and an AB/MWD for those few tins that maybe just a lil bit out of reach.
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Crellion
Art of War
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.12 16:41:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Crellion on 12/06/2008 16:41:03
Originally by: Jenny' JoJo
Edited by: Jenny'' JoJo on 12/06/2008 14:52:48
Originally by: Crellion
Back at the time when these forums attracted the best talent around people like naughtyboy posted charts (dps charts) and if I remember correctly form those time a 25% rof bonus equals a 33% dps increase whereas a 25% dmg bonus equals a 25% dps increase (lol) ... if that is accurate (I think it is anyway) then the Raven out dps's the Golem presuming you can fit the same **** on and disregarding the painter. Essentially this means a cruise raven will outdamage a cruise golem most of the time...
he did those stats.
6 launcher raven + 33% = 8 launchers.
Golem = 8 launchers. Both do the same damage. However, golem can fit 4bcu permatank and raven cannot. Golem 1 volleys bc's and 2 volleys most cruisers. Raven takes as long killing a cruiser as killing a bs. Golem is actually cost effective using faction ammo, since use use around half the ammo due to more rof bonus etc.
People like golem because it is damm good for torps or afk cruise setups. People like raven because its universal.
yes  sorry
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.12 20:26:00 -
[36]
Originally by: MotoMissles
Originally by: James Lyrus
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE.
Seriously? You'd field a 600 million isk ship in PvP? In fleet situations, maybe, but even then I'd stick with a regular Raven.
400-450 these days. But yeah I would, and I have. 1500dps is not to be sniffed at, not to mention your _massive_ value at actually attracting someone to come out and play.
But not in a fleet, because then you're primary and popped in no time. |
Dryxonedes Sae
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.13 03:04:00 -
[37]
There's no need to adjust anything for a painter bonus, as it doesn't change the raw dps POTENTIAL of a ship. It will change the NET outcome only. Even then that's ONLY assuming the given pilot is ******** enough to not fit a painter to a T1 torp raven. As far as shooting torps at cruisers (which is the only time the bonus is going to come into decent effect), why? T2 medium drones chew through npc cruisers quite aptly, there's no purpose to lobbing torps at them. NPC BC's, 1 T2 or "pwnage" painter will happily boost their sig far enough for torps to do what they need to.
So Chrysalis, why did I forego mentioning the painter bonus? Because it's COMPLETELY irrelevant when comparing a raven/CNR and a golem. You want to fit torps to any of them, you WILL be fitting painters to go with it, either that or have a friend along doing the painting. If you go back, and actually re-read the post I do believe I mentioned using comparible ship fits on each one. For future reference before you try and slag someone, be sure you comprehend what's being said before spouting off.
****
Where's the problem? It's called natural selection - The bottom of the ****ing food chain. -Denis Leary |
Mr Kindjal
32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment
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Posted - 2008.06.13 04:14:00 -
[38]
Hi. Could someone hint*wartronbobdude* share their lvl5 cap injected golem solo setup pls?
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.13 05:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Nu Wa
Edited by: Nu Wa on 12/06/2008 17:01:04
Originally by: Jmanis Catharg
Originally by: Nu Wa
1) Lots of afk missioners use cruise setup. On a cruise setup, it really is hard to tell the difference. Torp setup requires more SP and effort.(ex. training missile range skills and painting targets during missions)
Torp setup needs more SP and effort? I trained torps a long time before cruise, and no need to train the one which decreases sig radius of missile explosions. Plus IIRC torps come before cruise missiles in the skill training tree.
Ya didn't read my post through, I was rooting for the torp golem :)
The reason I say torp golem require more SP is because in order for Torp setup to work. Tech 2 Torp training is mandatory. Also Missile Projection and bombardment must be high too for javalins to hit that far. You also need range rigs instead of no brainer CCC.
On Cruise setup, T2 isn't required, explosion radius/speed skills aren't required. You can basically have all skills at level 1 and still run l4 missions comfortably...this is why everybody and their dog has a CNR with CN cruise launchers, because when you are not using T2 ammo, CN launcher requires less skill and is better than T2 launcher even with specialization skill maxed.
Raven was branded the "noob" ship for that same reason, cruise setup require very little skill to work.
THAT'S why I say torp setup require more SP, and many many people are reluctant to go with it. Hence the continue debate on CRUISE CNR vs. CRUISE Golem. For those of us that use torp, it is a no brainer..Golem
It's odd how times change. When I first got my Raven, torps were the noob stick of choice. Now it's the cruise.
In regard to the question as to which I would prefer, the answer is most assuredly the CNR. It isn't for silly figures about DPS output - a stock standard noob skilled raven can do any mission with ease. It's simple economics - a CNR averages about HALF (maybe 2/3) of a Golem.
Given I can get through ANY mission in a T2 fit UNRIGGED Raven and almost being so bored I can take a nap, the addition of more shield HP etc etc and a launcher mean I can do the EXACT same thing better for a pittance.
Of course, some may say my CNR is sorely underfitted. But then I point to the fact that MY CNR has not and will never be a gank target unless pirates are itching to lose cash on the deal. |
Kzintee
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.13 06:12:00 -
[40]
Use the search function, or I will mention the "d" word...
Oh, what the hell....
Defenders! Defenders! Defenders!
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.06.13 08:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
So Chrysalis, why did I forego mentioning the painter bonus? Because it's COMPLETELY irrelevant when comparing a raven/CNR and a golem. You want to fit torps to any of them, you WILL be fitting painters to go with it, either that or have a friend along doing the painting. If you go back, and actually re-read the post I do believe I mentioned using comparible ship fits on each one. For future reference before you try and slag someone, be sure you comprehend what's being said before spouting off.
I've not slagged you off, i'm pointing out your post and reasoning is that of an idiot. Either your just looking at EFT or you have no comprehension of what your talking about. You can't just fit a painter to a raven and claim here that everything is then equal because if you do, your ignoring the bonus of the golem, not to mention your putting stress on a ravens tank by using a valuable midslot. As soon as you do that your looking at warpouts or your looking at fitting faction mods on a standard raven, in either case its no longer viable, since anyone who's got half the ability to reason is going to either buy a Golem/CNR at that point.
Or like you posted above, you could now require a friend to come paint for you - in which case its no longer a similar setup at all as your now comparing 2 ships to the Golem pilots 1.
In either case your post is quite indicative either a) flying a golem with cruise missiles or b) never flown a golem and ergo have no clue what your actually talking about. |
Imaos
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
It's odd how times change. When I first got my Raven, torps were the noob stick of choice. Now it's the cruise.
In regard to the question as to which I would prefer, the answer is most assuredly the CNR. It isn't for silly figures about DPS output - a stock standard noob skilled raven can do any mission with ease. It's simple economics - a CNR averages about HALF (maybe 2/3) of a Golem.
Given I can get through ANY mission in a T2 fit UNRIGGED Raven and almost being so bored I can take a nap, the addition of more shield HP etc etc and a launcher mean I can do the EXACT same thing better for a pittance.
Of course, some may say my CNR is sorely underfitted. But then I point to the fact that MY CNR has not and will never be a gank target unless pirates are itching to lose cash on the deal.
How do you do missions in half the time if your CNR is underfitted?!?
1) If you do it right there is almost no difference in killing speed between both. (No where near 172 or 1/3 faster).
2) You can put more BCUs on the Golem and still get same tank.
3) You can salvage the shiny alloyed trit bars while running the mission without needing a second account. So talking economics, Golem is by far better.
4) Defenders take the same amount of damage output from both ships. NPC defenders are chance based per missile fired.
Imaos
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Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Falkwen
What would you fly and why?
CNR dps is very good even with just T2. 620 or so without drones.
Golem dps is much lower, at around 550 if you use CN BCU's and Cruise Launchers, but it's tank is about 2 times better.
Depends on the mission tbh, if you can handle it with just CNR, fit as many damage mods as possible - even 5th is worth it even if just for 2% more DPS. Otherwise, Golem for better tank. :)
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:22:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 13/06/2008 13:22:50
Originally by: Setana Manoro
CNR dps is very good even with just T2. 620 or so without drones.
Golem dps is much lower, at around 550 if you use CN BCU's and Cruise Launchers, but it's tank is about 2 times better.
Why would a Golem use cruise launchers??!!! |
Setana Manoro
Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth
Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 13/06/2008 13:22:50
Originally by: Setana Manoro
CNR dps is very good even with just T2. 620 or so without drones.
Golem dps is much lower, at around 550 if you use CN BCU's and Cruise Launchers, but it's tank is about 2 times better.
Why would a Golem use cruise launchers??!!!
Thread is about missioning. May not be stated in the OP but everyone answered with this in mind, so i don't want to stand out. I want to be liked :(
So that's why cruise, because i like company.
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JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.13 21:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Thread is about missioning.
That is correct. Missioning golem is a torp one. |
Nu Wa
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Posted - 2008.06.14 03:25:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Nu Wa on 14/06/2008 03:34:34
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
There's no need to adjust anything for a painter bonus, as it doesn't change the raw dps POTENTIAL of a ship. It will change the NET outcome only.
I think people are usually more interested in the final NET outcome result rather than POTENTIAL paper DPS. Yes? No?
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
Even then that's ONLY assuming the given pilot is ******** enough to not fit a painter to a T1 torp raven.
You do know that golem has an extra mid slot over the raven/CNR made ready for the painter without sacrificing the tank or gank, right?
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
As far as shooting torps at cruisers (which is the only time the bonus is going to come into decent effect)
You do know that torps sigs. are so big now that everyone needs to paint Battleships to get good torp damage, right?
Like Chrysalis D'lilth said, you can't just fit a painter to a raven and pretend everything is the same. Because you probably just killed either it's tank or cap. To make it even worse, Golem gets a 7.5% painter bonus per level over the raven.
You can't say painter is irrelevant to the comparison. It is ALL about that painter. Torp golem, TORP!
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.14 09:52:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nu Wa
Edited by: Nu Wa on 14/06/2008 03:34:34
Originally by: Dryxonedes Sae
There's no need to adjust anything for a painter bonus, as it doesn't change the raw dps POTENTIAL of a ship. It will change the NET outcome only.
I think people are usually more interested in the final NET outcome result rather than POTENTIAL paper DPS. Yes? No?
No, it's an important fact that most people are not intersted in net result, they are interested in bigger numbers. Bigger numbers are, of course, directly correlated to size of manhood.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.15 01:42:00 -
[49]
There are several factors to consider when choosing a mission ship.
1. Eve Lags. Sometimes a lot.
2. There are many more cruisers in missions than there used to be.
3. The danger from tackling NPCs is currently very minimal, however in past versions of EVE (and likely again in the future) it could be considered a substantial risk when combined with lag and large numbers of NPCs.
4. Initial investment vs. ISK made.
Point 1 - lag is a point in favour of the CNR - Most CNR set-ups with a faction booster like mine use CCC rigs to maintain a booster constantly. This minimises the risk compared to a Golem where a decent set-up will likely involve bursting the booster (also not good for AFK mission running).
Point 2 - more cruisers is a point in favour of using the CNR because its optimal set-up utilises cruise launchers which are faster to take down cruiser sized ships. In 0.0 belt ratting however, the Golem's superior performance against battleships makes it the winner.
Point 3 - When in a tight spot (drones are dead, you're warp scrambled and tank is failing) the cruise launchers are a godsend as they will be quite effective at killing off the tackling frigates; torpedoes would not.
Point 4 - The initial investment for a CNR set-up both in terms of ISKs and skill points is lower than for a Golem so the investment pays off faster and requires less time to begin.
Summary - it does depend on the specific situation in which the ship is to be deployed, however for players who like to do missions in a relaxed style, with minimal risk, the CNR is probably the ship to use.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2008.06.15 06:12:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 15/06/2008 06:12:40
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
There are several factors to consider when choosing a mission ship.
1. Eve Lags. Sometimes a lot.
2. There are many more cruisers in missions than there used to be.
3. The danger from tackling NPCs is currently very minimal, however in past versions of EVE (and likely again in the future) it could be considered a substantial risk when combined with lag and large numbers of NPCs.
4. Initial investment vs. ISK made.
Point 1 - If you actually bother to find yourself a good agent using the search tools available and a little brain matter instead of following the mindless cattle into the next best Navy hub, and run missions so fast that your main rewards are bounties rather than what the agent gives you, there is virtually no lag.
Point 2 - The cruiser galore (at least as far as the amarr mission selection is concerned) is nothing but a myth. Even if there are a few more cruisers in a mission, the lion's share of the effective HP is in the battleships and battlecruisers in almost every mission, only exceptions I know off the top of my hat are Massive Joke and most Rogue drone missions. And BS is exactly where the cruise boats struggle, as their alreadly lower dps is further reduced by defenders to which torps are virtually immune.
Point 3 - I agree, you should NOT fly a torp Golem if you are prone to messing up. It is a ship for professionals, not for amateurs 
Point 4 - Since you need very high missile support skills to even consider a torp golem, you should have enough money by the time you have the skills. And the investment pays off faster AND it is more fun to use.
Quote:
Summary - it does depend on the specific situation in which the ship is to be deployed, however for players who like to do missions in a relaxed style, with minimal risk, the CNR is probably the ship to use.
And for players who actually enjoy mission running, like to pimp their ship and the challenge to finish missions as fast as possible, the Golem is the ship to use. As backup for the correctÖ turret ship 
Make suicide ganking more difficult!
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Talio ZomB
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Posted - 2008.06.15 08:38:00 -
[51]
I have both CNR and Golem, I faction fit them where best appropriate, I use faction and t2 ammo only. And maximum torp skills with hardwiring for missle range, rof, and torp damage.
I have ran missions for 2 1/2 years hardcore, and have tested both ships cruise vs torps, cnr vs golem and so on.
With my skills the Golem doesnt just edge out its a clear choice its a superior mission ship.
Main justification for myself
Large booster with bonus is all you need, XL tanking is overkill unless your a newb (doubtful if u fly a golem)
Fits a 100MN AB with tank + torp fit easily (420m/s
Reasonable dps,1125 dps inc 3 light 2 med drones in a bs flying round at 420m/s is nice)
3 40km tractors
Double damage on CN and t2 torps makes those more cost effective, cn torps hit for 1997.4 with 3 cn bcs. 2 volleys per low calibre bs rat (EoM Ogre, Corpus Archon, Merc Overlord, Shadow/Shadow goon, etc etc)
Painter running at 44.85% at lvl 5 marauder, I forget what lvl 5 is as I only just got it, but that translates almost directly as 44% more dps dealt vs smaller craft up to cruiser scale, the dps increase is less vs bc, even an increase can be seen vs bs.
I dont have eve or EFT loaded so I cant be clearer.
note: practical torp ranges, 40km CN 60km jav, EFT does quote higher for my skills/hardwiring/rigs but truth is less.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.06.15 11:33:00 -
[52]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: MotoMissles
Originally by: James Lyrus
I would go with a CNR for PvP, and a Golem for PvE.
Seriously? You'd field a 600 million isk ship in PvP? In fleet situations, maybe, but even then I'd stick with a regular Raven.
400-450 these days. But yeah I would, and I have. 1500dps is not to be sniffed at, not to mention your _massive_ value at actually attracting someone to come out and play.
But not in a fleet, because then you're primary and popped in no time.
Out of interest, how are you fitting your PvP CNR?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.15 12:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 15/06/2008 12:08:27
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
stuff
Maybe I hit a nerve?
mission running is for making isk to PvP in my book, I never found EvE's PVE content particularly appealing for its own merits.
I also tend to enjoy watching a movie or catching up on some work while it goes on, so CNR is the best for this.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
JenDen
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.06.15 15:47:00 -
[54]
Edited by: JenDen on 15/06/2008 15:48:02
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
1. Eve Lags. Sometimes a lot.
2. There are many more cruisers in missions than there used to be.
3. The danger from tackling NPCs is currently very minimal, however in past versions of EVE (and likely again in the future) it could be considered a substantial risk when combined with lag and large numbers of NPCs.
4. Initial investment vs. ISK made.
Point 1 - As a previous person stated - the best way is to find less crowded system. But even putting this aside - Golem's tank is must stronger and shield-boosters can work non-stop with the same cost of equipment as for CNR, if not less. I heard Paladin pilots use cap-boosters sometimes, but not Golem pilots for sure. The bottom line is when you expect lags - Golem is much better choice.
Point 2 - Mission cruisers are defenitely not a problem, because pretty much any of them get killed with 1 volley, except for HACs, but the same goes for killem them with cruise missiles. People usually underestimate Golem painters, but in fact you can even kill most of frigates with like 2 volleys.
Point 3 - Even if you get into tight spot, which doesnt usually happend because Golem has better tank, Golem has strength to take down most dps dealers quicker and get back to the point where it can tank the remaining npc.
Point 4 - I dont like the investment to cruise missiles because I dont use them in PvP. On other hand - torp skills are must for Phoenix, as well as AWU 5.
Summary - I may think of CNR to be a good choice for stealth bomber pilot who is currently busy with training something else. But overall Golem is better and it can also loot/salvage during the mission, which is a great advantage many people forget about.
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Sig: StackNerfing * GangLinks |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2008.06.15 15:53:00 -
[55]
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 15/06/2008 12:08:27
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
stuff
Maybe I hit a nerve?
mission running is for making isk to PvP in my book, I never found EvE's PVE content particularly appealing for its own merits.
I also tend to enjoy watching a movie or catching up on some work while it goes on, so CNR is the best for this.
The only nerve you hit is my annoyance with most PvP people being incapable of understanding that different people enjoy different things about EVE. In fact I very often get the impression that they are even jealous of other people actually having fun earning money which for them is a boring grind, and thus they want those people nerfed down to their level. And I just can't help finding that attitude disgusting.
I agree that for your approach the CNR is ideal, but your approach is not the best approach for everyone, and in fact very far from the best approach for people into PvE as a profession rather than an isk grind to fund pvp.
Make suicide ganking more difficult!
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Durzel
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Posted - 2008.06.15 18:13:00 -
[56]
Torp Golem + PWNAGE painter(s) = 
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Kirjava
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.06.15 20:59:00 -
[57]
Having used both, there is something that I have to mention.
Cruise Missile launchers need to be reloaded much more often than torps, I reloaded for each BS rat when ratting and I have not needed once to reload whilst using my Golem.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. |
Royaldo
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.15 23:40:00 -
[58]
I use cruise on my golem. I also use a painter.
Didnt like the low range (30km) of torps while doing missions so i use cruise.
The dps is good enough imo. I dont have an ab fitted so some missions take some time
because you have to slowboat to the next gate.
Its not an expensive fit. There only t2 modules on it except the painter.
I get to loot with it, i get to shot 100km, i get salvage.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.06.16 00:19:00 -
[59]
ive found even with tons of skills, one cant do 6x Siege II and the full T2 tank on a normal raven. unless im missing something somewhere. im gunna try out a golem someday, might only be 4 launchers but it has a tractor bonus and the damage bonus and the T2 resists.
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Carniflex
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.06.16 04:57:00 -
[60]
Hehe. This thread again 
It's matter of preference. They are somewhat different ships in that regard that they work 'best' for different missionrunning styles. CNR for 'gank' style and Golem for 'permatank'. It is ofc true that it is not possible to run pure T2 fitted gank CNR while it is possible in case of Golem. However properly fitted 'gank' CNR (not something stellar, total fit approx 500-600 mil in modules so still not that attractive to suicide) will outperform Golem on similar budget in the hands of competent pilot. And yes it is possible to do T2 torpedo CNR with enough tank to do lev 4 missions without warpouts.
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Xin Wen
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Posted - 2008.06.16 05:55:00 -
[61]
If you are flying missions, then the answer is pretty simple and not even worth arguing. The Golem gets major tractor bonus with twice as fast and twice the reach on cans. It also has much more space in the cargo to store your loot. It puts out as much damage as a CNR from what I can see. People that don't have the skills to fly the Golem can just say they like the CNR better. Who cares in the end though??
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Xin Wen
If you are flying missions, then the answer is pretty simple and not even worth arguing. The Golem gets major tractor bonus with twice as fast and twice the reach on cans. It also has much more space in the cargo to store your loot. It puts out as much damage as a CNR from what I can see. People that don't have the skills to fly the Golem can just say they like the CNR better. Who cares in the end though??
You are incorrect - CNR has 7 launchers, and a 25% RoF bonus, giving it 9.33 effective launchers of damage output.
Golem has 4 launchers, and a 100% role bonus to damage, giving it 8 effective launchers of damage output.
Which, believe it or not, is why this thread exists - it's not a whole bunch of people lacking your awesome insight into it being 'obvious'.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Treean
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Posted - 2008.06.16 08:36:00 -
[63]
The real question is...what is the NET damage output of the CNR and the Golem vs NPC rats in missions. What's the average makeup of ship types in missions. Which will be more efficient...the CNR or the Golem with it's notable advantage to killing smaller targets.
The ships do similar gross DPS with cruise to the point of irrelevance. The real determining factor for efficiency is the net damage output in any given mission.
That asside, you can fit a much tougher tank on the golem for dirt cheap. It's easy to achieve an 800-1500 sustainable, rat specific tank on a golem.
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Talaan Stardrifter
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Posted - 2008.06.16 08:39:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Talaan Stardrifter on 16/06/2008 08:43:38
Originally by: Talio ZomB
...
note: practical torp ranges, 40km CN 60km jav, EFT does quote higher for my skills/hardwiring/rigs but truth is less.
EVE Trinity 'fixed' the missile speed and flight time bonus stacks. They now apply their bonuses as a percentage of the base value.
EFT may not have been updated to reflect this.
For example, Missile Projection 5 and Caldari Battleship 5:
Old Stack: Base Speed * Projection * Raven Bonus = Base Speed * 2.25
New Stack: Base Speed * (Projection + Raven Bonus) = Base Speed * 2
This effect is compounded on the Cerberus, which has a flight time bonus also:
Old Stack: Base Speed * (2.25) * Base Time * Bombardment * Ship Bonus = Base Speed * Base Time * 5.06
New Stack: Base Speed * (2.0) * Base Time * (Bombardment * Ship Bonus) = Base Speed * Base Time * 4
I've also noticed rounding errors with regards to calulated engagement range and actual engagement range being varying by a few km's.
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R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.06.16 10:10:00 -
[65]
Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 16/06/2008 10:11:43
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: R3dSh1ft
Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 15/06/2008 12:08:27
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
stuff
Maybe I hit a nerve?
mission running is for making isk to PvP in my book, I never found EvE's PVE content particularly appealing for its own merits.
I also tend to enjoy watching a movie or catching up on some work while it goes on, so CNR is the best for this.
The only nerve you hit is my annoyance with most PvP people being incapable of understanding that different people enjoy different things about EVE. In fact I very often get the impression that they are even jealous of other people actually having fun earning money which for them is a boring grind, and thus they want those people nerfed down to their level. And I just can't help finding that attitude disgusting.
I agree that for your approach the CNR is ideal, but your approach is not the best approach for everyone, and in fact very far from the best approach for people into PvE as a profession rather than an isk grind to fund pvp.
I recommend therapy, the op asked which do you prefer and why. Even a layman can see you have a persecution complex.
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Gul Rashen
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.16 10:15:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Gul Rashen on 16/06/2008 10:25:25
Originally by: James Lyrus
You are incorrect - CNR has 7 launchers, and a 25% RoF bonus, giving it 9.33 effective launchers of damage output.
Golem has 4 launchers, and a 100% role bonus to damage, giving it 8 effective launchers of damage output.
Which, believe it or not, is why this thread exists - it's not a whole bunch of people lacking your awesome insight into it being 'obvious'.
Once again..in the 20th Golem/CNR-Thread,OMG: DPS is not the same as effective Damageoutput and not the same as Killspeed. CNR does more Damage over Time through the ROF-Bonus, Golem has more Volleydamage cause the Damagebonus*. In the practice is the Killspeed with Cruise Missiles nearly the same( in some Missions the CNR is a Minute faster in others the Golem), with Torps the Killspeed of a 2TP Golem with T2 Launchers is unbeaten. The real Strength of the Golem is the TP-Bonus and the ability to fit 2TPs, still having the same Tank and Cap as the CNR without TPs and that with the Tractorbonus and more speed which boosts the Killspeed also. And with those 2 TPs the Damage of a Torpgolem is insane.
Use the searchfunction and read the other threads with Facts and Numbers:
LINK
*The effective Launcher-Calculation is wothless, if you are compairing Ships with different Bonusses. The CNR has still the Damage of 7 Launchers but firing at 25% faster speed, so it is a Bonus that gives more Damage in longer lasting fights and the Golem has the Damage of 8 Launchers which fire slower, so it is doing 14,3% more Damage whith each Volley which can be an Advantage in shorter Fights.
For some Pilots and Playstyles the CNR is the better Ship, for others it is the Golem.
Back to Topic:
I used the CNR nearly a Year and then changed to the Golem. I prefer it cause its so simple to fit, cause the Tractorbonus is so comfortable, cause i can fit it completely with T2-Items and still having enough Cap and Tank and i love the Damageoutput with Torps. In the Beginning there were still some Missions where i used my CNR fitted with CMs. But a Month ago i sold the CNR cause there was no need to have 2 so similar Ships.
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