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LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:07:00 - [1] According to the danish press, the Irish people have voted no the the new EU treaty. That is a huge event if that is indeed true. The ONLY country to vote turns it down? Is this true? I'm very excited if it is.
EvilPhog Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:08:00 - [2] Possibly!
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:18:00 - [3] This is why they won't let people vote in the other countries. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:19:00 - [4] To be fair it isn't democratic if less than 1.4m people, scupper the entire treaty in a bloc of 490m. Yes, it was going to reduce Ireland's power, it was going to make it 1 vote per person as opposed to 3M people having 1/27th of the vote. I am pro federalization of the EU for the record. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Keta Min LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:26:00 - [5] way to go Ireland, hope the treaty fails
4rc4ng3L C R Y O	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:31:00 - [6] Edited by: 4rc4ng3L on 13/06/2008 12:36:37 Yea its looking like it could be a NO vote win. Me, i voted no... although deciding on it wasnt simply a 'no we will loose control'. There are loads of little smaller issues that pushed it to a no vote for me anyway. But i can understand why people are voting yes and i still agree with some of the reasons for going with a YES vote. Either way its going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. ------------------------------------------ - To Jumanji, or not to Jumanji...... -
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:43:00 - [7] Why did they even enter into the EU if they don't wish to go forward with the gradual integration? Surely they didn't believe that the EU was a static community?
hattifnatt Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Kirjava To be fair it isn't democratic if less than 1.4m people, scupper the entire treaty in a bloc of 490m. Yes, it was going to reduce Ireland's power, it was going to make it 1 vote per person as opposed to 3M people having 1/27th of the vote. I am pro federalization of the EU for the record. It isnt very democratic that ireland was the ONLY country who even got to vote about it.
Mark Lucius Kinetic Vector	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:27:00 - [9] Originally by: hattifnatt Originally by: Kirjava To be fair it isn't democratic if less than 1.4m people, scupper the entire treaty in a bloc of 490m.[...] I am pro federalization of the EU for the record. It isnt very democratic that ireland was the ONLY country who even got to vote about it. This tbh. I am not necessarily against the treaty, but I am against the way my government handled it this time. In 2005 a clear majority of the Dutch voters voted against it, and to avoid such a display again they decided not to let us vote for this one. Now I am curious what will happen next with the treaty. ---
Iva Soreass Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:34:00 - [10] Well done ireland, at least one country has got some bslls and brains to think for themselfs (unlike my own country the UK)
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:47:00 - [11] The No vote was particularly strong, because there were so many reasons to vote no. Vote No as a general F.U. to the government, especially as the previous Taoiseach (PM) left the post due to questions regarding his history of funds and corruption. Non-stop media saturation of government corruption, a failing health system, etc... Vote No because you dont understand what the Lisbon treaty was all about, it has been said nothing changes if we vote no, and we carry on as normal. Vote No, because you understand the treaty but disagree with what was proposed. Vote No, because the new Taoiseach (as of 5th May) said a few weeks ago that Ireland should vote YES but confesses that he himself has not read the Treaty. WTF ? Vote No, because the last time we vote no to Nice, we were asked again to vote a second time and to vote YES. It was only passed in a much-criticised second vote. As opposed to : Vote Yes, you read the treaty and understand and agree with it. It will be interesting to see what happens now.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:15:00 - [12] I find it quite amusing actually. One of the features of the treaty is to reduce EU member's veto powers. It's quite funny that one country has vetoed it.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:56:00 - [13] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:06:40 oh yes, centralization of power for easier control, do vote no, it hasn't got ** to do with anything good for you or the economy or any of that bull*, eu is not about free trade, that was just the excuse to start it up in the first place, it's about gradual centralized control of all the sovereign (or soon to be not sovereign) nations of europe. that's why they don't want you to vote for the treaty, you might not be aware of what goes on in other european countries but in all the countries the government officials has told people the same thing. "we don't need a public vote because the treaty isn't that important, it just some good and necessary stuff and it's too complicated for you to understand really, so we don't want to inform you off it we'll just hush it down so you don't know much about it, and handle it for you." and you might or might not be aware of it, but when the various government officials throughout europe stood and told their people that, none of them had even read the treaty because it hadn't been made public yet, not even to them. The government officials in the european parlament were in essence being told to sign a treaty that they had not read. whiched caused uproar. youtube search for european treaty referendum for more information. if you live in europe and you decide for once to give a damn about something, well anything but yourself, do care and study in great detail, the european union, so that we may be rid of the nonsense and manipulation it represents. did you know that when in a certain european country (your homework to find out which) the government officials first presented the idea to vote yes to the euro, the people didn't like the idea about the euro common currency at all, they wanted to keep their own currency, much to the apparent dismay of the government officials that supposedly represented the citizens of that country. But then... out of nowhere wow gasp huge surprise* a financial hitman for the... ahem excuse me, a wealthy speculative business man, in the official tongue atleast. started to put pressure on the currency, and the government officials perpetuated that fear based propaganda.. saying "the euro can save you from this", and public oppinion with regards to the euro was swayed. and as the oppinion changed, the attack on the currency all of a sudden stopped aswell.. imagine that.. what a coincidence. no ofcourse they didn't work together, how could they? is that the kind of people you want running all of europe from a centralized parliament/senate if things like this are allowed to go through? that's what they are rolling into place here, no less than giving the eu apperatus the ability to to dictate laws that overrule any national laws of any country that is a member of the eu. so basically in layman's terms what that means is they can then pass a law saying whatever they want, and if some country has a different law, they can just say, well go fuk yourself we are the european parliament, either you obey or go to jail or whatever now shut up and do as you're told. and now they only have to bribe or put in place a few people in that parliament to do what they want to do, rather than all the governments of all the countries in europe, beautiful isn't it? you might say well centralization of power is a good thing, but one thing you need to remember is, every step of centralization of power is a step back for democracy and a step towards dictatorship. and if we know anything about centralization of power it is that absolute power can corrupt, and that the fewer there are to make decisions for many, the fewer there also are that are able to object to the decisions made. so what do you want? well, that's everybodys choice to make.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:20:00 - [14] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:25:51 and while everyone is looking at the collaps of the US and the corrupt politicians over there, they don't care of even notice what's going on the european union which has far more severe implications for everyone than whatever happens in the US. I'm sorry americans but you are not all that important when it comes down to it. here's the gameplan: crash the american economy, make the citizens suffer and coerce them to join with mexico and canada in the not yet public north american union, with "surprise" a common currency called the amero, to "save" you and give you economic stability. and then merge the NAU with the european union creating a one world government. well what about the other countries then? well the middle east is being bombed to shreads so they can't go against it, except the "holy holy" israel who is apparently dearly loved, but why is that again, oh yeah i forgot about AIPAC which both hillary and obama has sweared allegiance to, nice ain't it. and those israeli rich guys hate those bloody muslims for obvious reasons, cause they are so deluded and have manipulated people into thinking the torah is actually the word of god and that they are the chosen people, when nothing could be further from the truth. and the poor sods who support them think the "lord" will have a good place for them as long as they support whatever the israelies want, because of the false prophecy. and the other countries like africa and the rest of the made into third world countries, well they can't do much either but suffer. why? because when the rest of the countries not part of this is kept down, there'll be no one to oppose it. and if you don't agree well then just create more wars untill people will scream for a one world government so we don't have more wars. honestly. 15 years ago i could understand why people might raise their eyebrows about the idea of people actually wanting a 1 world government, i mean that's exactly what we fought to prevent in ww2, our ancestors would turn in their grave if they could see what was going on now. but as things are now today, with even the mention of the NAU and the NEW CONSTITUTION that comes along with it, with the european treaty and even just with the way the european union is now, you frankly gotta be more than an idiot not to see what's going on.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:23:00 - [15] Edited by: Kyanzes on 13/06/2008 15:25:10 Originally by: 7shining7one7 and while everyone is looking at the collaps of the US and the corrupt politicians over there, they don't care of even notice what's going on the european union which has far more severe implications for everyone than whatever happens in the US. I'm sorry americans but you are not all that important when it comes down to it. here's the gameplan: crash the american economy, make the citizens suffer and coerce them to join with mexico and canada in the not yet public north american union, with "surprise" a common currency called the amero, to "save" you and give you economic stability. and then merge the NAU with the european union creating a one world government. well what about the other countries then? well the middle east is being bombed to shreads so they can't go against it, except the "holy holy" israel who is apparently dearly loved. and the other countries like africa and the rest of the made into third world countries, well they can't do much either but suffer. why? because when the rest of the countries not part of this is kept down, there'll be no one to oppose it. and if you don't agree well then just create more wars untill people will scream for a one world government so we don't have more wars. honestly. 15 years ago i could understand why people might raise their eyebrows about the idea of people actually wanting a 1 world government, i mean that's exactly what we fought to prevent in ww2, our ancestors would turn in their grave if they could see what was going on now. but as things are now today, with even the mention of the NAU and the NEW CONSTITUTION that comes along with it, with the european treaty and even just with the way the european union is now, you frankly gotta be more than an idiot not to see what's going on. And it's all backed by aliens! Sometimes, in the dead of night, I can hear them laughing in the attic, discussing their evil plan.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Kyanzes Edited by: Kyanzes on 13/06/2008 15:25:10 Originally by: 7shining7one7 and while everyone is looking at the collaps of the US and the corrupt politicians over there, they don't care of even notice what's going on the european union which has far more severe implications for everyone than whatever happens in the US. I'm sorry americans but you are not all that important when it comes down to it. here's the gameplan: crash the american economy, make the citizens suffer and coerce them to join with mexico and canada in the not yet public north american union, with "surprise" a common currency called the amero, to "save" you and give you economic stability. and then merge the NAU with the european union creating a one world government. well what about the other countries then? well the middle east is being bombed to shreads so they can't go against it, except the "holy holy" israel who is apparently dearly loved. and the other countries like africa and the rest of the made into third world countries, well they can't do much either but suffer. why? because when the rest of the countries not part of this is kept down, there'll be no one to oppose it. and if you don't agree well then just create more wars untill people will scream for a one world government so we don't have more wars. honestly. 15 years ago i could understand why people might raise their eyebrows about the idea of people actually wanting a 1 world government, i mean that's exactly what we fought to prevent in ww2, our ancestors would turn in their grave if they could see what was going on now. but as things are now today, with even the mention of the NAU and the NEW CONSTITUTION that comes along with it, with the european treaty and even just with the way the european union is now, you frankly gotta be more than an idiot not to see what's going on. And it's all backed by aliens! And the RUSSIANS!
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:32:00 - [17] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:32:46 look you got the bush junior and senior both announcing the new world order publicly. you got the european union housing who looks exactly like the semi destroyed temple of babylon, what a damn coincidence huh. (don't believe me do an image comparison) you got pyramid on your soon to be obsolete currency with the all seing eye and the text saying "annuit coeptus novos ordos seclorum" -> today begins the new world order, and so on. can't you see they are trying to fullfill this prophecy because they have been conned into thinking it is true? thinking that then the lord will come and save them and kill everyone else if they make a 1 world government and make everyone suffer for a while (see the days of tribulation in the bible). clueless idiots they are.
Remata Lakira Terran Coalition	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:35:00 - [18] I'm scared, papa
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:46:00 - [19] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:39:53 look you got the bush junior and senior both announcing the new world order publicly. you got the european union housing who looks exactly like the semi destroyed temple of babylon, what a damn coincidence huh. (don't believe me do an image comparison european parliament housing, temple of babel) I can't make out the truck on the second picture.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:57:00 - [20] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 16:03:53 Originally by: Kyanzes Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:39:53 look you got the bush junior and senior both announcing the new world order publicly. you got the european union housing who looks exactly like the semi destroyed temple of babylon, what a damn coincidence huh. (don't believe me do an image comparison european parliament housing, temple of babel) I can't make out the truck on the second picture. thought it'd be fitting to illustrate the contrasting irony between the two. but here's one without the truck? see it now? no it's not a "under construction" picture, that is how it looks. the "under construction" part is intended symbolism as are most of the things in the building. you might also want to check out the denver airport murals and no they are not fake, that is how they look. image google the rest of the murals to see what the 1 world government has in store for its beloved citizens.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:02:00 - [21] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:45:20 look you got the bush junior and senior both announcing the new world order publicly. you got the european union housing who looks exactly like the semi destroyed temple of babylon, what a damn coincidence huh. (don't believe me do an image comparison european parliament housing, temple of babel) you got pyramid on your soon to be obsolete currency with the all seing eye and the text saying "annuit coeptus novos ordos seclorum" -> today begins the conception of the new secular order / today is the new secular order concieved/birthed -> today begins the new world order, and so on. can't you see they are trying to fullfill this prophecy because they have been conned into thinking it is true? thinking that then the lord will come and save them and kill everyone else if they make a 1 world government and make everyone suffer for a while (see the days of tribulation in the bible). clueless idiots they are. what's important is that someone wakes THEM up, then everyone else will get there in due time. It doesn't look exactly the same, it bears a passing resemblance at best. And the EU is not about centralising political power. Quite the opposite. It's a trade union, an organisation created to make it easier for European countries to trade with each other. Admittedly, they do get a bit big for their boots occasionally. And in the end, I wouldn't particularly care if they DID want to make Europe into one big country. I like Europe a hell of a lot more than I do the UK. Except the beer. English beer > European beer with the possible exception of German beer.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:08:00 - [22] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 16:13:21 Originally by: ReaperOfSly And the EU is not about centralising political power. Quite the opposite. It's a trade union, an organisation created to make it easier for European countries to trade with each other. Admittedly, they do get a bit big for their boots occasionally. And in the end, I wouldn't particularly care if they DID want to make Europe into one big country. I like Europe a hell of a lot more than I do the UK. Except the beer. English beer > European beer with the possible exception of German beer. ok let me ask you something reaper, what business has a trade union with undermining national laws of the constituent countries and creating a common currency thus undermining national values and natual currencies, and creating a european military and police force that is under inception and direction of the EU parliament, since when has a free trade union been about directorate control over the countries from a centralized governing body? you don't need a european union to be able to trade properly with other countries, you only need it if you want to manage all of the countries easily and switfly. you're buying into the lie being sold man.. the free trade union was the excuse to set it up in the first place when it was all new back in the day, when the reason behind it was anything but that. why do you think the politicians tell you little if anything about what goes on in the european parliament anyways. because they don't want you to really find out...
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:23:00 - [23] The EU stopped being purely about trade in 1992 when the EU was formed as the successor to the ECC. In much the same way the USA was a defensive pact against the British Empire, the EU is evolving. Interestingly, I got into a debate with a RL friend about this. My view was that Britain should be rearranged into a federation modeled on Germany, around 13 states (London, Scotland, Wales, Yorkshire ect) and then have these states in the EU, do the same with the states of Germany. Through this you would have around 100 or so states on an equal footing, and be rid of this tiresome veto powers. Note Ireland, which commands 1/27th of the vote would have lost a considerable amount of power in he EU, given it represents around 1/100 of the European population. I haven't read it myself, just been told summaries - in homesty I am NOT an MP so that shouldn't be a big a deal as them. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Kirjava The EU stopped being purely about trade in 1992 when the EU was formed as the successor to the ECC. In much the same way the USA was a defensive pact against the British Empire, the EU is evolving. Interestingly, I got into a debate with a RL friend about this. My view was that Britain should be rearranged into a federation modeled on Germany, around 13 states (London, Scotland, Wales, Yorkshire ect) and then have these states in the EU, do the same with the states of Germany. Through this you would have around 100 or so states on an equal footing, and be rid of this tiresome veto powers. Note Ireland, which commands 1/27th of the vote would have lost a considerable amount of power in he EU, given it represents around 1/100 of the European population. I haven't read it myself, just been told summaries - in homesty I am NOT an MP so that shouldn't be a big a deal as them. check this out.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:26:00 - [25] I wouldn't mind having a constitution. The UK currently doesn't have one, so there's no such thing as a British citizen - only subjects of HM The Queen. Basically, every right we have is granted and revoked at the whim of the monarchy (which in practise means at the whim of the government). It's not a nice system for anyone who values their rights (which are being slowly eroded by the government in the name of national security). So we get a constitution? Yay? The single currency is not an inherently bad thing. Okay, it removes control of the currency from the sovereign nations, but it does promote trade between the countries that have it. And that is the whole point of having the EU in the first place. And European police/army? I've heard nothing about that. Pics or it didn't happen. __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:30:00 - [26] Oh its true about the pan European military, in practice it would take NATO as it currently is and remove the non EU military and declare it the EU Army. Then remove Britain and France from the UN security council and instill a EU one, as a successor state. Problem is, the EU cant be democratic until they remove all the bloody red tape that small country's have put in to get disproportional power. By removing Veto powers it opens the door to gasp elect EP members
stoats Damage Inflicted	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:34:00 - [27] Its is now a confirmed NO vote here and all i can say it is needed. Alot of ppl in the EU will be bitter at the fact we have rejected this treaty but they should also note that the other 26 countries(citizens) got NO SAY wot so ever. Those are the ppl that will be glad Ireland voted no, now it remains to be seen the ramifications of said result.......
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:38:00 - [28] Originally by: stoats Its is now a confirmed NO vote here and all i can say it is needed. Alot of ppl in the EU will be bitter at the fact we have rejected this treaty but they should also note that the other 26 countries(citizens) got NO SAY wot so ever. Those are the ppl that will be glad Ireland voted no, now it remains to be seen the ramifications of said result....... You are naive if you believe that it won't go through anyway. They'll rerun the referendum until it succeeds. Heck, I would even go as far as saying that politicians may even change the constitution there in Ireland so referendums wouldn't be obligatory in questions of international interests, unlike now.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:44:00 - [29] Originally by: ReaperOfSly But I really didn't know about the European military thing. What nationality is it? Is it made up of members of every country in the EU? Is it the European Parliament that gets to decide where they go and what they do? Because if so, we have a group of unelected individuals controlling a continent-spanning military, which is a little bit scary. How big is this military? Its nationality is European, the RAF, Luftwaffe and the rest are disbanded and amalgamated into a new service spanning the EU. With the Lisbon treaty rattified we would be able to get to the point where we could elect EPs as opposed to electing the parlaiment to elect amongst themselves who gets to be EP. Tbqh, when it was made it was seen as just another office like the Treasury or the Home Office, and although needs to be changed hasn't.
stoats Damage Inflicted	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Kyanzes You are naive if you believe that it won't go through anyway. They'll rerun the referendum until it succeeds. Heck, I would even go as far as saying that politicians may even change the constitution there in Ireland so referendums wouldn't be obligatory in questions of international interests, unlike now. Uhm im Irish and i think i should know about our own consititution. They would have to have a referendum to make those changes so we cant vote but guess what ? Our government would loose hands down on that as we are not stupid enough to sign away our right to have a say and thats why there was a NO vote victory....... Even IF the EU passes the treaty without us i dont think it will have dire consequences for us but alot of ppl in europe will still be ****ed they didnt get a say and their governments didnt give them a chance to voice their concerns.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:46:00 - [31] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: ReaperOfSly But I really didn't know about the European military thing. What nationality is it? Is it made up of members of every country in the EU? Is it the European Parliament that gets to decide where they go and what they do? Because if so, we have a group of unelected individuals controlling a continent-spanning military, which is a little bit scary. How big is this military? Its nationality is European, the RAF, Luftwaffe and the rest are disbanded and amalgamated into a new service spanning the EU. With the Lisbon treaty rattified we would be able to get to the point where we could elect EPs as opposed to electing the parlaiment to elect amongst themselves who gets to be EP. Tbqh, when it was made it was seen as just another office like the Treasury or the Home Office, and although needs to be changed hasn't. WHAT??! They're going to disband the militaries of member nations?
stoats Damage Inflicted	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:48:00 - [32] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: ReaperOfSly But I really didn't know about the European military thing. What nationality is it? Is it made up of members of every country in the EU? Is it the European Parliament that gets to decide where they go and what they do? Because if so, we have a group of unelected individuals controlling a continent-spanning military, which is a little bit scary. How big is this military? Its nationality is European, the RAF, Luftwaffe and the rest are disbanded and amalgamated into a new service spanning the EU. With the Lisbon treaty rattified we would be able to get to the point where we could elect EPs as opposed to electing the parlaiment to elect amongst themselves who gets to be EP. Tbqh, when it was made it was seen as just another office like the Treasury or the Home Office, and although needs to be changed hasn't. WHAT??! They're going to disband the militaries of member nations? Its a possible outcome but the thing i fear more is the fact we could end up being another USA (no offence) but we would loose our indivuality infavour of 1 group overseeing a large clump of countries.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:49:00 - [33] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: ReaperOfSly But I really didn't know about the European military thing. What nationality is it? Is it made up of members of every country in the EU? Is it the European Parliament that gets to decide where they go and what they do? Because if so, we have a group of unelected individuals controlling a continent-spanning military, which is a little bit scary. How big is this military? Its nationality is European, the RAF, Luftwaffe and the rest are disbanded and amalgamated into a new service spanning the EU. With the Lisbon treaty rattified we would be able to get to the point where we could elect EPs as opposed to electing the parlaiment to elect amongst themselves who gets to be EP. Tbqh, when it was made it was seen as just another office like the Treasury or the Home Office, and although needs to be changed hasn't. WHAT??! They're going to disband the militaries of member nations? That was the plan yes, as Brits we should know the drill, disband Scottish and English Militarizes and Parliaments then immediatly sighn the formation of the UK with a British Military and Navy. Same thing, all member states dissolve their parliaments and militarizes and reform under the EU or whatever they name it's succesor state.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:49:00 - [34] Originally by: ReaperOfSly WHAT??! They're going to disband the militaries of member nations? It would be a lot more efficient that way. What's wrong with that?
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:50:00 - [35] Originally by: stoats Its a possible outcome but the thing i fear more is the fact we could end up being another USA (no offence) but we would loose our indivuality infavour of 1 group overseeing a large clump of countries. Nah, fairly certain we would keep all cultural things we decide are worth keeping. Scotland, Cornwall and Wales I point to as examples of cultures surviving the unions of their former nation-states.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:51:00 - [36] Okay, clearly I'm not as informed about this as I thought I was. Now I'm starting to see 7's point of view. How scary is that?
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:58:00 - [37] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Okay, clearly I'm not as informed about this as I thought I was. Now I'm starting to see 7's point of view. How scary is that? Hideously - problem is I enjoy the prospect of Europe becoming a superpower. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:58:00 - [38] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Okay, clearly I'm not as informed about this as I thought I was. Now I'm starting to see 7's point of view. How scary is that? You shouldn't be afraid of it. You should welcome it. It would unite Europe under one flag, and our way towards victory, paved by the bodies of those oppose us, would finally be clear. March with us! I couldn't resist, sorry. Anyways, you see the boogeyman where isn't one. It's only logical for the EU to finally evolve further into an emp... I mean confederation. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:02:00 - [39] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Okay, clearly I'm not as informed about this as I thought I was. Now I'm starting to see 7's point of view. How scary is that? relinked in case you missed it
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:03:00 - [40] Europe would be the worlds premier super power should it be united, the majority of the worlds great powers are in Europe, and with all of them bar Britain currently using the Euro the odds of WW3 being a European conflict are gone, the economy becoming hideously powerful and becoming slowly the globes reserve currency over the dollar, seems we are in for good times. Bringing in the eastern block is modernizing them and removing them from Russian influence, personally I hope that one day we will be welcoming Russia into the fold Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:06:00 - [41] LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:07:00 - [42] The treaty of Lisbon is not calling for a dismantling of each country's military in favour of a unified one, but rather a common defence policy: "The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides". On the other hand, some European leaders (such as Germany's Merkel and France's Sarkozy) have publicly stated they want to move to a unified army model in the future. The European Council, who would be deciding on defence policy, is not a bunch of unelected officials as some posts here seem to imply, but the collection of the elected heads of state of each European nation (along with the figure of the President of the European Comission).
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:10:00 - [43] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:14:37 Originally by: ReaperOfSly LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! they don't care about you or your family or your dreams, or your suffering or your hopes, don't you get it by now. fair elections.. hah.. talk to the easter bunny lately? and if you don't stand up it just gets worse, you can't run away or crawl into the corner and pretend everything is going to be ok. how would you like a microchip in you so that you can be directed and they can make or break you and your family and everyone you care for, at the push of a button. "tell me mr. anderson, what good is a phone call if you are unable to speak?" ladies and gentlemen, say hi to the verichip corporation, we are here for your protection.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:12:00 - [44] Ah, if it was assumed I meant Lisbon was that which declared the establishment of a European military my aplogies, it is something on the table but which hasn't formally been signed. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:12:00 - [45] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: ReaperOfSly LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! they don't care about you or your family or your dreams, or your suffering or your hopes, don't you get it by now. fair elections.. hah.. talk to the easter bunny lately? Are you American? Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Keta Min LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Kirjava Bringing in the eastern block is modernizing them and removing them from Russian influence, personally I hope that one day we will be welcoming Russia into the fold or we will become part of greater russia
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:15:00 - [47] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: ReaperOfSly LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! they don't care about you or your family or your dreams, or your suffering or your hopes, don't you get it by now. Nor does any government I know of. So what? __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Kirjava Ah, if it was assumed I meant Lisbon was that which declared the establishment of a European military my aplogies, it is something on the table but which hasn't formally been signed. yes it's in the works, along with many other sweet and fuzzy feel good things.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:18:00 - [49] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:22:14 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: ReaperOfSly LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! they don't care about you or your family or your dreams, or your suffering or your hopes, don't you get it by now. Nor does any government I know of. So what? they aren't the government, they control the government, there is a big difference. why get your hands dirty prematurely when you can get some poor saps to do it for you untill noone can stand up against you. don't pretend you didn't know, it has been said for many many years. Only now we are at the point where the time is for the actualy choice to be made. the people of ireland who unlike many others had the fortune to actually be able to have a say in the matter, has made theirs, what will yours be?
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:20:00 - [50] Originally by: 7shining7one7 ladies and gentlemen, say hi to the verichip corporation, we are here for your protection. OMG that's so cool! They can implant a blood glucose sensor? I would KILL for one of those. I'm diabetic, so having one of those things would save me having to stab my finger 5 times a day
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:21:00 - [51] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: ReaperOfSly LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean, EU!!! they don't care about you or your family or your dreams, or your suffering or your hopes, don't you get it by now. Nor does any government I know of. So what? they aren't the government, they control the government, there is a big difference. why get your hands dirty prematurely when you can get some poor saps to do it for you untill noone can stand up against you. If someone controls the government, they ARE the government. Government being defined as that entity which governs.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:24:00 - [52] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:25:22 Originally by: ReaperOfSly If someone controls the government, they ARE the government. Government being defined as that entity which governs. ahaha.. yeah.. the non public unelected one then.. heck.. let's just call it for what it is.. the real one.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:26:00 - [53] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Stuff Pretty close to the truth there. You did get a few names wrong though it will be the U.A.F. (United American Federation) Also you didn't mention the rebellion (that will be called the Aztlan war) that will consist of a region stretching from southern California to Mexico city wanting independence. And you didn't mention the K.O.A. Originally by: ReaperOfSly And European police/army? I've heard nothing about that. Pics or it didn't happen. Well interpol is pretty much an EU police force...
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:30:00 - [54] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:32:52 Originally by: pwnedgato Originally by: 7shining7one7 Stuff Pretty close to the truth there. You did get a few names wrong though it will be the U.A.F. (United American Federation) Also you didn't mention the rebellion (that will be called the Aztlan war) that will consist of a region stretching from southern California to Mexico city wanting independence. And you didn't mention the K.O.A. Originally by: ReaperOfSly And European police/army? I've heard nothing about that. Pics or it didn't happen. Well interpol is pretty much an EU police force... well i like to tell people the surface of what they are up against, so that they know enough to have a willingness to stand up and not be scared completely ****less and run to the corner, sometimes you gotta run before you can walk, or you will never walk at all. and if you know what you are talking about you also know who will come should it all come to fruition, so the potential victory of the evil empire will be quite short indeed, and i'll personally take great pleasure in seing the bastards get what they've got coming should they not reconsider.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:33:00 - [55] Originally by: 7shining7one7 well i like to tell people the surface of what they are up against, so that they know enough to have a willingness to stand up and not be scared completely ****less and run to the corner, sometimes you gotta run before you can walk, or you will never walk at all. EU - taking back independence from the USA since 1995. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:41:00 - [56] I've only recently been made aware of the full extent (or at least what I've been let in on) of the various plots running about currently. I have been preparing for several years already though just for different reasons.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:46:00 - [57] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:48:06 Originally by: pwnedgato I've only recently been made aware of the full extent (or at least what I've been let in on) of the various plots running about currently. I have been preparing for several years already though just for different reasons. oh yeah that's right you think you are going to be saved what's the saying again, never trust a snake?
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:47:00 - [58] Saved? Of course not. I will do my best though.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:51:00 - [59] some people in this thread need to be locked up in a mental home.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:53:00 - [60] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 17:53:10 Originally by: Thorliaron some people in this thread need to be locked up in a mental home. the real comedy is that you think you are the sane and rational one , it's both infinitely hilarious and infinitely sad at the same time.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:53:00 - [61] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 13/06/2008 15:45:20 look you got the bush junior and senior both announcing the new world order publicly. you got the european union housing who looks exactly like the semi destroyed temple of babylon, what a damn coincidence huh. (don't believe me do an image comparison european parliament housing, temple of babel) you got pyramid on your soon to be obsolete currency with the all seing eye and the text saying "annuit coeptus novos ordos seclorum" -> today begins the conception of the new secular order / today is the new secular order concieved/birthed -> today begins the new world order, and so on. can't you see they are trying to fullfill this prophecy because they have been conned into thinking it is true? thinking that then the lord will come and save them and kill everyone else if they make a 1 world government and make everyone suffer for a while (see the days of tribulation in the bible). clueless idiots they are. what's important is that someone wakes THEM up, then everyone else will get there in due time. Sephra is in this thread, writing your postz.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:54:00 - [62] Edited by: Isiskhan on 13/06/2008 17:55:36 I am for further integration amongst European countries, conspiranoid theories aside. My own country, Spain, spent several decades of the XX century in isolation under a fascist dictatorship, and when Paquito finally ditched it in '75, he left the country in a pretty backwards state in many different aspects: politically, economically, socially, infrastructure-wise, etc... After getting once again a new constitution and a democratic system, we joined the European Community (as it was known back then), and that provided a huge boost to our economy, international relations / trade, foreign investments, infrastructure (we didn't even have highways before European money arrived), legislation reforms, etc... to the point that the Spanish economy has become now the world's 8th largest one. We are now in the position of helping out new members of the EU (eastern countries) to get back on their feet, the same way the other nations helped us back in the '80s. The introduction of the Euro has been a very positive change in many different ways as well. I recall seeing years ago a bumper sticker in Britain saying something like "Save democracy, keep the Pound" - this sort of emotionally-fueled factually-free xenophobic mentality just provokes a chuckle in me. Regarding the comments about the EU eroding democracy of individual countries, I again have to chuckle. Of course you are giving up some independence as a nation when you join the EU - duh - but the idea is that overall European nations come out stronger as a united group. And when your own national government misbehaves, there's someone else on top to bring out the stick. Examples: some years ago, when we had the Conservative party in power, a national worker's strike against some labour reforms swept the nation, and yet the government lied to the people (mainly through Spain's equivalent to the BBC), about its impact, message, and reach. This was protested by the opposition parties to the European Parliament, which in turned forced the Spanish government to broadcast a public apology during the prime-time newscasts stating that they had indeed lied about the strike. In fact, I increasingly see that when the national government in power / big corporation conglomerates / etc... are trying to butt-*****the people in some way, the European institutions are asked to step in and bring out the stick, and so far I reckon they are doing a fine job at it (with plenty of room for improvement, of course).
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:54:00 - [63] i haven't seen sephra for a while, shame really, good effort on his part, hope he's doing well.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:57:00 - [64] Originally by: Isiskhan I am for further integration amongst European countries, conspiranoid theories aside. apparently the members of the european parliament are conspiranoid aswell.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:57:00 - [65] Originally by: 7shining7one7 i haven't seen sephra for a while, shame really, good effort on his part, hope he's doing well. I believe he left because he was posting political stuff in posts that werent about politics and in turn had his posts erased. But it started to get on the side of obnoxious rather then funny.
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:58:00 - [66] Edited by: pwnedgato on 13/06/2008 17:58:22 I do believe he is otherwise indisposed. If you haven't noticed the activity of informed people across various public forums has declined as of late. Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:59:00 - [67] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: 7shining7one7 i haven't seen sephra for a while, shame really, good effort on his part, hope he's doing well. I believe he left because he was posting political stuff in posts that werent about politics and in turn had his posts erased. But it started to get on the side of obnoxious rather then funny. yeah i agree on that, he did his best with what he had though.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:00:00 - [68] Originally by: pwnedgato Edited by: pwnedgato on 13/06/2008 17:58:22 I do believe he is otherwise indisposed. If you haven't noticed the activity of informed people across various public forums has declined as of late. Well this is dependent on what you believe is"informed".
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:02:00 - [69] Whatever you believe you must agree that it is at least abnormal for a population's presence to dwindle so rapidly. Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:02:00 - [70] Originally by: pwnedgato Edited by: pwnedgato on 13/06/2008 17:58:22 I do believe he is otherwise indisposed. If you haven't noticed the activity of informed people across various public forums has declined as of late. oh i know, i'm not worried though and they know why.
Shirley Serious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:05:00 - [71] Originally by: pwnedgato Whatever you believe you must agree that it is at least abnormal for a population's presence to dwindle so rapidly. End of term for universities? So people aren't online so much as they move out for the summer? Or something else?
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:10:00 - [72] Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: pwnedgato Whatever you believe you must agree that it is at least abnormal for a population's presence to dwindle so rapidly. End of term for universities? So people aren't online so much as they move out for the summer? Or something else? oh yes that is exactly why ps: you are so cute and dearly loved.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:24:00 - [73] Politics moar? Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I habe no life.
Privavarian Evil Activities Diabolic Paradox	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:34:00 - [74] Edited by: Privavarian on 13/06/2008 21:37:57 For what I have seen so far the US is much against as the EU as a big superstate with 1 joint army. Just because (not a joke) they think the US and the EU will be rivals. and therefor in the future may cause a threat.
TimMc Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:00:00 - [75] Originally by: hattifnatt Originally by: Kirjava To be fair it isn't democratic if less than 1.4m people, scupper the entire treaty in a bloc of 490m. Yes, it was going to reduce Ireland's power, it was going to make it 1 vote per person as opposed to 3M people having 1/27th of the vote. I am pro federalization of the EU for the record. It isnt very democratic that ireland was the ONLY country who even got to vote about it. This a thousand times. I think we should be voting for the EU government just like we do our own government. Currently its full of failed and self centred politicians. Governments now allowing us to vote on such a huge thing as this is disgusting, and hardly "democracy". We may have given them power for a few years, but there are a few things we shouldn't let them do.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:27:00 - [76] Originally by: Privavarian Edited by: Privavarian on 13/06/2008 21:37:57 For what I have seen so far the US is much against as the EU as a big superstate with 1 joint army. Just because (not a joke) they think the US and the EU will be rivals. and therefor in the future may cause a threat. Well.... sucks to be the USA with a big military epeen. Sorry but it really isn't any of the US's business if the EU wants to amalgamate its resources and streamline that may/may not make it exceed the capabilities of the US. We are more concerned with Chinas mushrooming military than US sulking over not being top dog. While the EU has a handful of socialistic tendancies, they are not the extreme that the USSR had nor are we the hardcore capitalists of the USA, we are a nice hybrid that suits our needs
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:24:00 - [77] I just had this discussion with my family! I dont understand why people think a 1 world government is a bad thing... Im all for a unified Europe, European president! The EU as an entity is the largest and richest economy in the world! Surely that tells you its a good thing.. if nothing else will.. Conspiracy theorists need to be ignored, and its a good job they are as far as im concerned.. Just a few points because im tired and this thread will get locked eventually and be pointless anyway. Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:34:00 - [78] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Shirley Serious Originally by: pwnedgato Whatever you believe you must agree that it is at least abnormal for a population's presence to dwindle so rapidly. End of term for universities? So people aren't online so much as they move out for the summer? Or something else? oh yes that is exactly why ps: you are so cute and dearly loved. You understand by laughing in almost every post and making wild references to the matrix you lower credibility somewhat yes? I cant honestly be expected to take you seriously.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Privavarian Edited by: Privavarian on 13/06/2008 21:37:57 For what I have seen so far the US is much against as the EU as a big superstate with 1 joint army. Just because (not a joke) they think the US and the EU will be rivals. and therefor in the future may cause a threat. Well.... sucks to be the USA with a big military epeen. Sorry but it really isn't any of the US's business if the EU wants to amalgamate its resources and streamline that may/may not make it exceed the capabilities of the US. We are more concerned with Chinas mushrooming military than US sulking over not being top dog. While the EU has a handful of socialistic tendancies, they are not the extreme that the USSR had nor are we the hardcore capitalists of the USA, we are a nice hybrid that suits our needs Actually im all for the EU, aslong as the citizens are aswell that is. Because it would benefit america and give us a swift kick in the rear to develope technology and begin more space travel and such. America shines against a capable enemy and falls apart against strawmen.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:40:00 - [80] Originally by: TimMc I think we should be voting for the EU government just like we do our own government. Currently its full of failed and self centred politicians. Actually, you do vote for the "EU government". That you're blissfully ignorant about this fact and how the EU institutions work - as do a lot of other Europeans - is a different matter. Since 1979, as a European, you have direct specific elections for the members of the European Parliament that will represent your country, once every five years. The European Council is composed out of the heads of state you voted during your national elections. The Council of the European Union is formed out of the very same national government ministers from the party you voted during your country's elections as well. Are you against further integration among European countries? Would you like your country's government to throw a referendum for the Lisbon treaty as Ireland did, instead of simply ratifying it in the name of the nation? Well, simply vote next time for a party that supports an anti-EU Constitution position and the like.
Sothis Antares PBA Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:46:00 - [81] Originally by: Mtthias Clemi Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. i want to be a part of your pink world. this has nothing to do with conspiracy. It's just the carfulness some people still have in their minds these days, luckily. look back into history what can happen having all this yeasayers and don't-give-a-****-men. i really hope for you that you will wake up in your one-empire world, being a tool of the regime, a well-behaved worker living in a house with 20 credit cards, who can say to himself that he'll never get in conflict with law. at the latest when you find yourself innocent in prison and you ask them why and they answer you 'just because' you'll notice that something went wrong. _________________________________________________ devblogs are boring. so is mine :P
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:03:00 - [82] Originally by: Sothis Antares Originally by: Mtthias Clemi Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. i want to be a part of your pink world. this has nothing to do with conspiracy. It's just the carfulness some people still have in their minds these days, luckily. look back into history what can happen having all this yeasayers and don't-give-a-****-men. i really hope for you that you will wake up in your one-empire world, being a tool of the regime, a well-behaved worker living in a house with 20 credit cards, who can say to himself that he'll never get in conflict with law. at the latest when you find yourself innocent in prison and you ask them why and they answer you 'just because' you'll notice that something went wrong. Assumption of corrupt government achieves nothing, and i don't know where you are getting your financial information on me from because i don't have any credit cards and i don't intend to have any! NWO ranting and such is full of conspiracy, and that is to what i am referring. What is peoples problem with the slow advance of unification? You sound like my sister, who said she doesn't want to use Euros! she wants to use pounds.. she has no economic or political reason, its simply thats its what she grew up with.. The EU is made up almost entirely of elected officials from the member states, its hardly an all knowing dictatorship. Fine, the Irish people have rejected the treaty, thats a shame but its their choice i support my governments choice to go along with it.. they feel its the right thing, we elected them.. im fine with that. If we had to have a national vote for every action nothing would ever get done. Fear mongering annoys me.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:18:00 - [83] Originally by: Mtthias Clemi Originally by: Sothis Antares Originally by: Mtthias Clemi Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. i want to be a part of your pink world. this has nothing to do with conspiracy. It's just the carfulness some people still have in their minds these days, luckily. look back into history what can happen having all this yeasayers and don't-give-a-****-men. i really hope for you that you will wake up in your one-empire world, being a tool of the regime, a well-behaved worker living in a house with 20 credit cards, who can say to himself that he'll never get in conflict with law. at the latest when you find yourself innocent in prison and you ask them why and they answer you 'just because' you'll notice that something went wrong. Assumption of corrupt government achieves nothing, and i don't know where you are getting your financial information on me from because i don't have any credit cards and i don't intend to have any! NWO ranting and such is full of conspiracy, and that is to what i am referring. What is peoples problem with the slow advance of unification? You sound like my sister, who said she doesn't want to use Euros! she wants to use pounds.. she has no economic or political reason, its simply thats its what she grew up with.. The EU is made up almost entirely of elected officials from the member states, its hardly an all knowing dictatorship. Fine, the Irish people have rejected the treaty, thats a shame but its their choice i support my governments choice to go along with it.. they feel its the right thing, we elected them.. im fine with that. If we had to have a national vote for every action nothing would ever get done. Fear mongering annoys me. We're not ready yet, unification of europe? Fine, the world? No. We arent ready for two reasons... 1)All current government usually fixes problems by either blaming another country or starting a war, any other way would cause complete chaos. 2)All government will sooner or later become corrupt and fail, but since we have several countries they wont all at once and cause the dark ages/cause worldwide chaos, a world government would. In short, would it be great? Yes but we just arent ready.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:31:00 - [84] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 14/06/2008 00:37:32 Originally by: Mtthias Clemi I just had this discussion with my family! I dont understand why people think a 1 world government is a bad thing... Im all for a unified Europe, European president! The EU as an entity is the largest and richest economy in the world! Surely that tells you its a good thing.. if nothing else will.. Conspiracy theorists need to be ignored, and its a good job they are as far as im concerned.. Just a few points because im tired and this thread will get locked eventually and be pointless anyway. Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. i laugh because i'd rather laugh than cry, not because i think everything is just f'ing peachy compadre. you don't take me seriously because you have allready made up your mind and thus don't see anything else. no you can't say the same for me, i would really wish that all this was just a bunch of mumbojumbo, boy you have no idea how much i'd want that to be true. but i can't ignore what's going on and walk around with blinders on, and i have no idea how you go about doing so with peace of mind, i kind of envy that innocense, but on the other hand, i would rather see things as they are so i can make my choices, instead of walking straight off a cliff with blindfolds on while a guy is saying i'll go to some one world paradise if i just walk 5 more steps ahead. a one world government is bad because.. we're not at all ready for it. a one world government is bad because it's a move towards dictatorship, and then we might aswell go back to thousand years ago with emperors, monarchs, and servants/slaves and all that nice fuzzy stuff that came along with that, which was exactly what we fought to get rid of many many times throughout history, and that wasn't because it was made of awesome, it was because it was a horiffic system where the ruling class put themselves in that spot and ruthlessly used the rest of the people. And yes a monarchy or empire with an emperor is much more efficient for getting things done, only catch is.. what will be done is what the emperor wants done, and the emperor gives diddly squat about what the f you want, because he's the emperor, get it? gotten? good. a one world government is anything but a step towards progress if those that run it are not morally capable of not being self centered but instead living for the entire world rather than for just themselves, which is what such a task requires. a one world government is bad when those that are "elected" are not done so by the people which the government represents, nor follows the will of the people, but instead is put there by a few for the few, so they can do whatever the hell they want. democracy might slow down progress, till we are ready for something different. but untill we are ready it's damn sure a hell of a lot fairer and better than the alternative, because even though socalled democratic politics tend to be corrupt and slow in processing stuff, it pales in comparison to the horrific implications and actions that a one world government can undertake if it is corrupt also. if you put all your eggs in 1 basket and the basket can't hold the weight of the responsibility and becomes corrupted, then you are royally f'ed son, along with everyone else. that's why.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:36:00 - [85] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Mtthias Clemi I just had this discussion with my family! I dont understand why people think a 1 world government is a bad thing... Im all for a unified Europe, European president! The EU as an entity is the largest and richest economy in the world! Surely that tells you its a good thing.. if nothing else will.. Conspiracy theorists need to be ignored, and its a good job they are as far as im concerned.. Just a few points because im tired and this thread will get locked eventually and be pointless anyway. Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. you don't take me seriously because you have allready made up your mind and thus don't see anything else. no you can't say the same for me, i would really wish that all this was just a bunch of mumbojumbo, boy you have no idea how much i'd want that to be true. but i can't ignore what's going on and walk around with blinders on, and i have no idea how you go about doing so with peace of mind, i kind of envy that innocense, but on the other hand, i would rather see things as they are so i can make my choices, instead of walking straight off a cliff with blindfolds on while a guy is saying i'll go to some paradise if i just walk 5 more steps ahead. a one world government is bad because.. we're not at all ready for it. a one world government is bad because it's a move towards dictatorship, and then we might aswell go back to thousand years ago with emperors, monarchs, and servants/slaves and all that nice fuzzy stuff that came along with that, which was exactly what we fought to get rid of many many times throughout history, and that wasn't because it was made of awesome, it was because it was a horiffic system where the ruling class put themselves in that spot and ruthlessly used the rest of the people. a one world government is anything but a step towards progress if those that run it are not morally capable of not being self centered but instead living for the entire world rather than for just themselves, which is what such a task requires. a one world government is bad when those that are "elected" are not done so by the people which the government represents, nor follows the will of the people, but instead is put there by a few for the few, so they can do whatever the hell they want. democracy might slow down progress, till we are ready for something different. but untill we are ready it's damn sure a hell of a lot fairer and better than the alternative, because even though socalled democratic politics tend to be corrupt and slow in processing stuff, it pales in comparison to the horrific implications and actions that a one world government can undertake if it is corrupt also. if you put all your eggs in 1 basket and the basket can't hold the weight of the responsibility and becomes corrupted, then you are royally f'ed son, along with everyone else. that's why. Thats what i wanted to hear! Better than "OMg u dont see lol" I agree we aren't ready for a world government, but this isnt that is it? Its a step towards a single government for an area which might one day become an area of a single government for the world, which will eventually be a good thing! If i was asked "Do we need a world government now?" I would say no.. but if we don't start in that direction, we aren't going to be there when we need to be.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:51:00 - [86] It all comes down to whether or not you believe the world should eventually be governed as a single entity. I don't understand why people would not want that. Anyway, sleep time now.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:10:00 - [87] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 14/06/2008 01:12:14 Originally by: Mtthias Clemi Thats what i wanted to hear! Better than "OMg u dont see lol" I agree we aren't ready for a world government, but this isnt that is it? Its a step towards a single government for an area which might one day become an area of a single government for the world, which will eventually be a good thing! If i was asked "Do we need a world government now?" I would say no.. but if we don't start in that direction, we aren't going to be there when we need to be. i don't make a habit of telling people what they want to hear really. it is much more important to tell people what they don't want to hear, because what they want to hear they allready know. and i'm not interested in wheither you think i have credibility or not. but what you don't understand mtthas is that these people are so corrupt to a level you haven't even contemplated yet. now as to your case that it would be a good thing to move towards a one world government because it will help us get ready for it. well we've tried that in the past and it didn't work at all.. we didn't learn anything from that except that it was a really bad f'ing idea and then we fought and gave our lives to get rid of it. and these people, they are pushing for it, not because they are benevolent and wise and can properly administrate such power. but because they are greedy sob's with dreams of an empire of their own. now if you want to go through all of that again with the technology we have now to manipulate and control people, in the hopes that it will help prepare us for a time when we are ready for it, then all i can say is that is folly. because the suffering that will entail pails in comparison to any suffering of the past. they will be able to get to you in ways no emperor or monarchy in their wettest dreams dreamt possible. you won't be able to say, do or think anything that they don't want you to think or you get sent to jail, get a bullet in your head or loose all your fiscal ressources at the push of a button, and nobody will dare do anything because if they do they are next. and it will be ruthlessly efficient, but not good for anyone except those who run it. point and case and this is not even close to how it's going to be if this continues, how you liking that, is it all you hoped for? removing personal liberties isn't to make life more efficient or better for the people or to make them more secure, it's to make it easier for the upper class to control said people. because as george w bush junior said a couple of times, it'd be a heck of a lot easier if this was a dictatorship, just as long as i'm the dictator. and that's how the upper class think, they don't think like you. and it won't be good for the people at all.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:39:00 - [88] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 14/06/2008 01:45:52 oh yeah btw. what happened 6th of june (6) 2006 ? this might have passed you by. it's all about symbolism for these guys. same with 911. guess they get some perverse kick out of it too on some level, you know, get their rocks off. but that's cool right? "cause that's what we agree on in washington." don't matter what you agree on you see. not to them anyways.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.14 09:28:00 - [89] So you've convinced yourself that everyone in power is an evil **** who wants to torture everyone and throw them in prison to establish their evil NWO? Interesting, i cant discuss something like this with someone who has already decided that his conspiracy theory's are correct and tangible fact is wrong. There is an extremely large difference between trying to conquer the world and unifying the world under a single banner. Last word from me on the subject tbh..
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:12:00 - [90] I would have voted "yes" if anyone had let me. Unfortunately, democracy isn't in particularly full force on this issue... ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:51:00 - [91] Originally by: Patch86 I would have voted "yes" if anyone had let me. Unfortunately, democracy isn't in particularly full force on this issue... The reason why there was a referendum in Ireland is because their own constitution required them to. In the rest of the European countries, the Treaty of Lisbon has been / is going to be ratified by parliamentary vote: that is, voted by the same MPs you in turn voted into office, just like they vote for any other law / motion approved or rejected in your country. Concretely in the UK, the Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified in the House of Commons by 346 votes for it, 206 votes against it, and 81 abstentions on March 11th. It will be subjected to vote in the House of Lords on June 18th. The Treaty of Lisbon is not like the European Constitution that was rejected by referendum in France and the Netherlands, it has far less reaching implications and it is meant to amend and streamline current European treaties and institutions, not replace them as the failed Constitution did: that's why it is not considered that it requires a popular referendum (with the exception of Ireland, given what is stated on their own constitution).
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Isiskhan Originally by: Patch86 I would have voted "yes" if anyone had let me. Unfortunately, democracy isn't in particularly full force on this issue... The reason why there was a referendum in Ireland is because their own constitution required them to. In the rest of the European countries, the Treaty of Lisbon has been / is going to be ratified by parliamentary vote: that is, voted by the same MPs you in turn voted into office, just like they vote for any other law / motion approved or rejected in your country. Concretely in the UK, the Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified in the House of Commons by 346 votes for it, 206 votes against it, and 81 abstentions on March 11th. It will be subjected to vote in the House of Lords on June 18th. The Treaty of Lisbon is not like the European Constitution that was rejected by referendum in France and the Netherlands, it has far less reaching implications and it is meant to amend and streamline current European treaties and institutions, not replace them as the failed Constitution did: that's why it is not considered that it requires a popular referendum (with the exception of Ireland, given what is stated on their own constitution). Yah, so I realise and agree. What I meant is that it isn't particularly nice that something can be shot down by some 1 million people, when it affects several hundred million. My country (and the rest) has already approved of it, but a referendum of an extreme minority can scupper it dead. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:49:00 - [93] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Isiskhan Originally by: Patch86 I would have voted "yes" if anyone had let me. Unfortunately, democracy isn't in particularly full force on this issue... The reason why there was a referendum in Ireland is because their own constitution required them to. In the rest of the European countries, the Treaty of Lisbon has been / is going to be ratified by parliamentary vote: that is, voted by the same MPs you in turn voted into office, just like they vote for any other law / motion approved or rejected in your country. Concretely in the UK, the Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified in the House of Commons by 346 votes for it, 206 votes against it, and 81 abstentions on March 11th. It will be subjected to vote in the House of Lords on June 18th. The Treaty of Lisbon is not like the European Constitution that was rejected by referendum in France and the Netherlands, it has far less reaching implications and it is meant to amend and streamline current European treaties and institutions, not replace them as the failed Constitution did: that's why it is not considered that it requires a popular referendum (with the exception of Ireland, given what is stated on their own constitution). Yah, so I realise and agree. What I meant is that it isn't particularly nice that something can be shot down by some 1 million people, when it affects several hundred million. My country (and the rest) has already approved of it, but a referendum of an extreme minority can scupper it dead. Exactly how i feel, anyway they say they have a plan B Dont they have a minimum of number of NO countries required to stop it going through? One country stopping the entire union seems extreme to me.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:20:00 - [94] Originally by: Patch86 Yah, so I realise and agree. What I meant is that it isn't particularly nice that something can be shot down by some 1 million people, when it affects several hundred million. My country (and the rest) has already approved of it, but a referendum of an extreme minority can scupper it dead. Ah, yes, I misunderstood your point. One of the local newspapers' headline today put it quite eloquently: "862.415 Irish block almost 500 million Europeans"... which gets even more ridiculous when you consider that according to polls 80% of the Irish admitted they didn't really know much about the Lisbon treaty they were voting for / against. On the other hand, the Sinn Fein and other hardcore nationalists had a field day with their fear-mongering campaigns of "Don't let them bully you!" and such b*llocks.
Seabhac BudifulBC	Posted - 2008.06.14 20:50:00 - [95] Edited by: Seabhac on 14/06/2008 20:51:01 Blame the inept irish government for this not the people, they did a **** poor job of explaing what the treaty was about, and having the taoiseach(PM) say he hadn't even read the entire treaty but vote yes anyway was never going to inspire people to go out and vote yes. It came down to keeping things as you know and understand them(No) or do as your told(YES). I remember some months ago hearing various european polititions stating that if we voted no then the treaty was dead and that would be it, now however everyone is acting as if this doesn't matter a damn. Sorry you didn't vote the way we wanted you to vote so bugger off......... I wish my lawn was emo, so it would cut itself.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:03:00 - [96] Edited by: Isiskhan on 14/06/2008 21:05:05 I was just reading in the newspaper an interview with Naoise Nunn, the executive director of Libertas, the main platform in Ireland campaigning for the "No". Libertas was born two years ago as a think-tank that has united groups of quite a diverse ideology: from the Sinn Fein, to fundamentalist Catholic groups to Marxist associations. Nunn is quite upset that despite their victory on the referendum, France's Sarkozy and other European leaders (with the sole exception of the self-described euro-esceptic Chec president) are urging the remaining European countries to continue with the ratification process. When asked what was essentially Liberta's gist for their "No" position, Nunn claimed that they are not anti-European, but rather they are concerned about the democratic deficit the Lisbon treaty would imply. And what exactly is this "democratic deficit"? Nunn responds they are alarmed that the treaty's proposed changes include taking decisions using a majority system based on population size. "The voice of Ireland would end up being reduced". Indeed... because on the other hand it is far more democratic to have the minority impose their will on the majority.
Seabhac BudifulBC	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:45:00 - [97] How is taking something that was rejected by two large nations(France and the Netherlands) rebranding it so that they wont be able to chuck it out a seccond time and *****ing when its thrown out by a "small" country democratic? I wish my lawn was emo, so it would cut itself.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:50:00 - [98] Originally by: Seabhac How is taking something that was rejected by two large nations(France and the Netherlands) rebranding it so that they wont be able to chuck it out a seccond time and *****ing when its thrown out by a "small" country democratic? The European Constitution != the Lisbon Treaty. Do yourself a favour and read more about them both before posting such nonsense.
Sirikar Nakasoroki	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:43:00 - [99] to see how europe votes under the lisbon treaty, see eurovision.
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:21:00 - [100] THIS End of nations - the documentary by Irish might give you some clues. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:31:00 - [101] All I can say is. They Will have the new world order what ever it takes. The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. J Edgar Hoover. ... _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:46:00 - [102] Originally by: Mtthias Clemi I just had this discussion with my family! I dont understand why people think a 1 world government is a bad thing... Im all for a unified Europe, European president! The EU as an entity is the largest and richest economy in the world! Surely that tells you its a good thing.. if nothing else will.. Conspiracy theorists need to be ignored, and its a good job they are as far as im concerned.. Just a few points because im tired and this thread will get locked eventually and be pointless anyway. Once we are a unified planet we can look to solving the problems that have plagued us since society began, and those which we ourselves have created, rather than dealing with petty nationalistic ideals which hinder our development. Yeah. but the promise of solving problems .. like using Gene manipulated foods to solve the food crisis is pure bull****. Monsanto has 90% of worlds gene modified patents. But none of their patents is to improve the nutrional value of the food. Instead they are just to improve the foods hardness towards their own pesticide called Roundup. (wich was shown to cause pre state towards CANCER). (sources (documentaries): The World According To Monsanto, Future of Food, Patent For pig) One world gowerment might be good idea. BUT NOT WITH THE PPL HEADING TO THE HELM RIGHT NOW. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:36:00 - [103] Edited by: Kyanzes on 15/06/2008 11:37:04 Originally by: LaVista Vista Is Ireland writing history this very second? Yes, and unfortunately everyone else's history in Europe. If they want no part in this then they should as well leave the Union. Why stay if they have a different agenda? --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
4rc4ng3L C R Y O	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Kyanzes Edited by: Kyanzes on 15/06/2008 11:37:04 Originally by: LaVista Vista Is Ireland writing history this very second? Yes, and unfortunately everyone else's history in Europe. If they want no part in this then they should as well leave the Union. Why stay if they have a different agenda? We dont have a dam different agenda.... a vote of NO for lisbon treaty was in no way a vote NO for europe. Do some research before letting your bulls**t opinion loose! ------------------------------------------ - To Jumanji, or not to Jumanji...... -
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:39:00 - [105] Originally by: 4rc4ng3L Originally by: Kyanzes Edited by: Kyanzes on 15/06/2008 11:37:04 Originally by: LaVista Vista Is Ireland writing history this very second? Yes, and unfortunately everyone else's history in Europe. If they want no part in this then they should as well leave the Union. Why stay if they have a different agenda? We dont have a dam different agenda.... a vote of NO for lisbon treaty was in no way a vote NO for europe. Do some research before letting your bulls**t opinion loose! I've already done that. Ireland is in the way of the EU's progression. Nationalism FTL. You can't even deny it, I've heard interviews and some people said they were afraid for Ireland's freedom, they're afraid it would have been short lived should the majority of the votes turned out to be yes. They think only of themselves. Well, think outside of the EU then. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
4rc4ng3L C R Y O	Posted - 2008.06.15 13:10:00 - [106] Originally by: Kyanzes Originally by: 4rc4ng3L Originally by: Kyanzes Edited by: Kyanzes on 15/06/2008 11:37:04 Originally by: LaVista Vista Is Ireland writing history this very second? Yes, and unfortunately everyone else's history in Europe. If they want no part in this then they should as well leave the Union. Why stay if they have a different agenda? We dont have a dam different agenda.... a vote of NO for lisbon treaty was in no way a vote NO for europe. Do some research before letting your bulls**t opinion loose! I've already done that. Ireland is in the way of the EU's progression. Nationalism FTL. You can't even deny it, I've heard interviews and some people said they were afraid for Ireland's freedom, they're afraid it would have been short lived should the majority of the votes turned out to be yes. They think only of themselves. Well, think outside of the EU then. The vast majority of the Irish voted no due to the governments complete and utter failure to sell the YES vote to the population. The Irish were then left with one of two things. Vote YES and go along with the word of the government which gave no other reason to vote yes other than 'Trust us we know what we're doing' Or vote NO and have things remain the same. Given that our situation is rather good at present and the EU is growing strong why would we then go along with the YES vote if we didnt see any necessary reason to do so. Voting NO was a vote to have things remain the same, to continue with the current ways which have proven quite successful, from OUR point of view. But for anyone to suggest the 'Irish People' are holding Europe back is pure idiocy and ignorance. If you believe we should have voted YES, then throw your blame at the ridiculous Government we so clearly have, whos main job should have been to blatantly sell the YES vote to the population. ------------------------------------------ - To Jumanji, or not to Jumanji...... -
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:03:00 - [107] any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning ** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. __________________________ Quote:** ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:25:00 - [109] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. so germany is okay to dictate the uk on how to behave based on population? peopel forget this is a uninon of contrys, its based on equal rights for the contrys. its a democracy in the sense all the contrys atm are equal instead of after the treaty where some are more equal than others "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. so germany is okay to dictate the uk on how to behave based on population? peopel forget this is a uninon of contrys, its based on equal rights for the contrys. its a democracy in the sense all the contrys atm are equal instead of after the treaty where some are more equal than others My point is, to make it completely fair, you should have a system where every single individual gets one vote each. Not every country getting one vote each. Countries which represent a small percentage of the EUs population should have proportionally small influence. __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
nahtoh Bull Industries	Posted - 2008.06.15 14:50:00 - [111] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. so germany is okay to dictate the uk on how to behave based on population? peopel forget this is a uninon of contrys, its based on equal rights for the contrys. its a democracy in the sense all the contrys atm are equal instead of after the treaty where some are more equal than others My point is, to make it completely fair, you should have a system where every single individual gets one vote each. Not every country getting one vote each. Countries which represent a small percentage of the EUs population should have proportionally small influence. Or more simply its the only country that actually could not just run roughshod over the population. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:05:00 - [112] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. so germany is okay to dictate the uk on how to behave based on population? peopel forget this is a uninon of contrys, its based on equal rights for the contrys. its a democracy in the sense all the contrys atm are equal instead of after the treaty where some are more equal than others My point is, to make it completely fair, you should have a system where every single individual gets one vote each. Not every country getting one vote each. Countries which represent a small percentage of the EUs population should have proportionally small influence. Or more simply its the only country that actually could not just run roughshod over the population. If people don't trust their government then they should replace them. It's not necessary for them to knock the EU over in the process of punishing their leaders. Let's suck together because the Irish decided to show the finger to their politicians. It seems it doesn't matter who's in charge, it doesn't matter that they got into power through democratic elections, a government can only be evil and simply MUST BE part of some sort of an evil plan to enslave the people administrated by them. Go and elect someone else into office instead of making everyone else suffer of your defiance. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:06:00 - [113] meh...europe is over, why don't you all vote to become part of america, we do everything bigger and better than you guys so it makes sense..
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Wilko1776 meh...America is over, why don't you all vote to become part of Europe, we do everything more efficiently and better than you guys so it makes sense.. Fixed. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:30:00 - [115] you wouldn't have democracy, freedom, cars, electricity etc etc etc etc without us, plus red alliance would be in charge of you.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:33:00 - [116] Edited by: Kirjava on 15/06/2008 15:33:15 Originally by: Wilko1776 you wouldn't have democracy, freedom, cars, electricity etc etc etc etc without us, plus red alliance would be in charge of you. Obvious Troll is Obvious Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:35:00 - [117] i knew it when i clicked reply
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:41:00 - [118] yeah, don't they teach you anything in european schools?
Sothis Antares PBA Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:43:00 - [119] you're the worst troll i ever saw _________________________________________________ devblogs are boring. so is mine :P
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:44:00 - [120] proof or stfu
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:49:00 - [121] Originally by: Wilko1776 proof or stfu no you "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:52:00 - [122] Edited by: Wilko1776 on 15/06/2008 15:56:35 fail
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:53:00 - [123] Originally by: Wilko1776 petitioned **** to the bat cave "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:00:00 - [124] Originally by: Wilko1776 petitioned Let me get this straight, you come into a debate on the EU thread, claim the USA gave the world democracy (2 party system, true democracy my arse) freedom (define it) the car (British)..... just why, what do they you these days Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:26:00 - [125] clear up the last sentence, i can't understand your question
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:38:00 - [126] Edited - I hate this bloody touch pad, I keep hitting it by accident and moving the cursor without noticing Ah well, new mouse tommorow. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
nahtoh Bull Industries	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:44:00 - [127] Originally by: Kyanzes Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Lilan Kahn any who thinks irland voteing no isnt meaning **** dosnt have a clue. this abut all the contrys in the eu being equal. how is it fair that say france or the uk can bully smaller contrys in to geting it there way? is that contrys being equal? Well, they have larger populations so yes. It is fair. so germany is okay to dictate the uk on how to behave based on population? peopel forget this is a uninon of contrys, its based on equal rights for the contrys. its a democracy in the sense all the contrys atm are equal instead of after the treaty where some are more equal than others My point is, to make it completely fair, you should have a system where every single individual gets one vote each. Not every country getting one vote each. Countries which represent a small percentage of the EUs population should have proportionally small influence. Or more simply its the only country that actually could not just run roughshod over the population. If people don't trust their government then they should replace them. It's not necessary for them to knock the EU over in the process of punishing their leaders. Let's suck together because the Irish decided to show the finger to their politicians. It seems it doesn't matter who's in charge, it doesn't matter that they got into power through democratic elections, a government can only be evil and simply MUST BE part of some sort of an evil plan to enslave the people administrated by them. Go and elect someone else into office instead of making everyone else suffer of your defiance. Whos says I am Irish? Sorry but I don't trust the EU, UK wuss out on a referrendum and the current treaty has been described by a number of EU heads of State as being insubstance identical to what it replaced for everybody but the UK. Do I trust the current UK government? Well lets see upto 42 days trial, ID cards (which they keep changing the goalposts for), DNA database, badly structured extreme ** laws, seemly endless stream of data loss issues, Missuse of the current RIPA act, plans for massive data sharing on a scale that staggers the mind, etc. So I guess that would be a no...going by the large amount of ** they have and are planning to pull they don't trust the population so why in any sane world should I trust them? Apart from the Irish goverment (which basicly had no choice) they all seem to be masters of "if we don't ask the question they can't say no, so we can get away with it". The ugly streak of "we know better and WILL get it done another way" that followed the Dutch and french no votes was frankly quite alarming. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:53:00 - [128] nahto would you happen to have any tin-foil hats spare or are you currently wearing them all?
Emeline Cabernet Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:51:00 - [129] Originally by: Sothis Antares Originally by: Wilko1776 you wouldn't have democracy, freedom, cars, electricity etc etc etc etc without us, plus red alliance would be in charge of you. lol?! actually i think he means it. also, THE COMMIES ARE COMING FOR YOU!!!
nahtoh Bull Industries	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:14:00 - [130] Originally by: Wilko1776 nahto would you happen to have any tin-foil hats spare or are you currently wearing them all? Any eyes numbnuts? A MP resgined over the 42 day detention that just passed, RIPA has been used to check parents are sending kids to schools in the proper catchment area, people that not been charged never mind convitected added to the DNA database in the UK, more than one high lvl goverment misiter explaining that the Irish vote will not stop ratification of this treaty (never mind that just one no vote should stop it). Christ the UK goverment just lost more data, ID cards put back again. Really Please actually come up with a point rather a one liner that makes you look like a total moron... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:23:00 - [131] Originally by: Wilko1776 you wouldn't have democracy, freedom, cars, electricity etc etc etc etc without us, plus red alliance would be in charge of you. I'm not sure that you have a solid grasp on reality when you say that w/o the US the commies would have seized Europe. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:36:00 - [132] How come this has not been locked?? Are the mods on holiday?
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:59:00 - [133] Originally by: Mtthias Clemi How come this has not been locked?? Are the mods on holiday? The mods are a lie. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:13:00 - [134] Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Mtthias Clemi How come this has not been locked?? Are the mods on holiday? The mods are a lie. I knew it. __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:30:00 - [135] you all obviously fail at history, and some of you possibly life too, you'll be thanking the bush family in years to come. on the subject to tin-foil hats, i believe kirjava was looking for one too so if there are 2 going spare that would be great! kthanxbai!
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:52:00 - [136] Originally by: Wilko1776 you all obviously fail at history, and some of you possibly life too, you'll be thanking the bush family in years to come. on the subject to tin-foil hats, i believe kirjava was looking for one too so if there are 2 going spare that would be great! kthanxbai! What? Where's the "failure" at history? You're the one spouting nonsense about America inventing democracy, freedom, cars and electricity. __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
Sirikar Nakasoroki	Posted - 2008.06.16 07:45:00 - [137] Europe under lisbon treaty = Eurovision, my opinion.
Wilko1776 An Eye For An Eye Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.16 08:31:00 - [138] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Originally by: Wilko1776 you all obviously fail at history, and some of you possibly life too, you'll be thanking the bush family in years to come. on the subject to tin-foil hats, i believe kirjava was looking for one too so if there are 2 going spare that would be great! kthanxbai! What? Where's the "failure" at history? You're the one spouting nonsense about America inventing democracy, freedom, cars and electricity. why don't you get out and head out to the eastern bloc somewhere you commie revisionist
Cat Funt	Posted - 2008.06.16 10:34:00 - [139] whether anybody likes it or not the EU treaty is a done deal and the rest of Europe is going to continue to ratify it. once all the other countries have ratified it, Ireland will probably be asked (nicely but firmly) if they want to be involved in this new Europe of or not. At the end of the day Ireland has done very very well out of the EU financially, and when push comes to shove they will vote what is best for their wallets like everyone else.
Lilan Kahn The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.06.16 10:44:00 - [140] Originally by: Cat Funt whether anybody likes it or not the EU treaty is a done deal and the rest of Europe is going to continue to ratify it. once all the other countries have ratified it, Ireland will probably be asked (nicely but firmly) if they want to be involved in this new Europe of or not. At the end of the day Ireland has done very very well out of the EU financially, and when push comes to shove they will vote what is best for their wallets like everyone else. you mean heavy financed by the eu to get there economy to work? they where one of the last cheep labour pools in europe so ofc they had decent growth until they leveled out with the rest of europe "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
Cat Funt	Posted - 2008.06.16 11:07:00 - [141] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: Cat Funt whether anybody likes it or not the EU treaty is a done deal and the rest of Europe is going to continue to ratify it. once all the other countries have ratified it, Ireland will probably be asked (nicely but firmly) if they want to be involved in this new Europe of or not. At the end of the day Ireland has done very very well out of the EU financially, and when push comes to shove they will vote what is best for their wallets like everyone else. you mean heavy financed by the eu to get there economy to work? they where one of the last cheep labour pools in europe so ofc they had decent growth until they leveled out with the rest of europe doesnt matter in the long run, they are much better off as a part of the EU and will continue to prosper as part of it. Also as all the other goverments in europe have already decided that they want this they are not going to dump the whole idea because of a country of a few million people that has very little relevance in terms foriegn policy/financial input in to the EU. Im not having a go at the irish here just being pragmatic. Im not actually very pro European and im a little miffed that we (British) didnt get a referendum and a chance to say no as well
Ravin Abai Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:38:00 - [142] As an (IGNORANT AND STUPID LOL ) American, I'm not totally sure I understand all the dynamics at play here, but I'm going to ask a couple questions/comment anyway. Do Irish reasons for rejecting the treaty extend beyond just being afraid that small countries like themsevles would fall victim to the whims of larger countries like France/Germany/etc. if the Lisbon Treaty passed? I can certainly understand these kinds of sentiments, especially as the United States has moved towards a larger federal government and diminished the power of state governments significantly over the past few decades. That being said, what's all that bad about having a large central body making all of the decisions? Sure you might not always get what you want, but I think you can at least trust Brussels not to screw you over too bad at every chance they get. IMO, these kind of anti-EU views are really rather short sighted. It seems like many of the arguments being made against further EU integration are basically demagogic appeals to peoples' baser instincts. The problems that we (the West) are facing currently are such that it's going to take our collective efforts to solve them (or mitigate their inevitable consequences). I know the U.S. hasn't been very helpful for the past eight years, but that's all going to change next year. Also the people talking about the U.S. being against a collective EU military force are wrong. I think it's in our best interests.
ReaperOfSly Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:37:00 - [143] Originally by: Ravin Abai As an (IGNORANT AND STUPID LOL ) American, I'm not totally sure I understand all the dynamics at play here, but I'm going to ask a couple questions/comment anyway. Do Irish reasons for rejecting the treaty extend beyond just being afraid that small countries like themsevles would fall victim to the whims of larger countries like France/Germany/etc. if the Lisbon Treaty passed? I can certainly understand these kinds of sentiments, especially as the United States has moved towards a larger federal government and diminished the power of state governments significantly over the past few decades. That being said, what's all that bad about having a large central body making all of the decisions? Sure you might not always get what you want, but I think you can at least trust Brussels not to screw you over too bad at every chance they get. IMO, these kind of anti-EU views are really rather short sighted. It seems like many of the arguments being made against further EU integration are basically demagogic appeals to peoples' baser instincts. The problems that we (the West) are facing currently are such that it's going to take our collective efforts to solve them (or mitigate their inevitable consequences). I know the U.S. hasn't been very helpful for the past eight years, but that's all going to change next year. Also the people talking about the U.S. being against a collective EU military force are wrong. I think it's in our best interests. For what it's worth, I agree with you. I would very much like the EU to become unified, but can't see it happening any time soon because of nationalistic ideals. The USA was able to form a central government over the disparate states because at the time, those states had not had enough time to form a national identity. So they weren't giving anything up by subscribing to a centralised government. But in the EU, there is a lot of history and blood between many of the countries, even if that was hundreds of years ago. Everyone wants to be independent, even if it's not in their best interests. And although I have nothing to back this up, I feel like Brussels would screw us over less than our own government does on a daily basis. __________________________ Quote: ...bored, skint, no charter, and a ship that looks like an explosion in a girder factory...
pwnedgato	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:46:00 - [144] /conspiracy mode off Why do I despise the very idea of a world government. dislike any large governments and disagree even more with unification of power? I'd like to see some possible explanations. Originally by: Crumplecorn These is a forum for this.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:50:00 - [145] Originally by: pwnedgato /conspiracy mode off Why do I despise the very idea of a world government. dislike any large governments and disagree even more with unification of power? I'd like to see some possible explanations. Because you are very very bored. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:51:00 - [146] Originally by: Wilko1776 why don't you get out and head out to the eastern bloc somewhere you commie revisionist Anyone else seeing the irony here as a yes on the Lisbon treaty would expand Capitalist EU into the eastern block and guarantee them as capitalist countries Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:09:00 - [147] Originally by: pwnedgato /conspiracy mode off Why do I despise the very idea of a world government. dislike any large governments and disagree even more with unification of power? I'd like to see some possible explanations. Well, I certainly can't speak for everyone, but my reasons are democratically motivated. The way the world is at the moment, its entirely possible for things to happen which affect me personally, but which I have absolutely zero involvement with, influence over, or accountability thereof. Basically, if a decision is being made by any government other than the UK (or, possibly, the EU), I'm not able to control it in even the most token way. Look at it like this. If the British government makes a decision that has large economic ramifications and could mean that I and many people in the world will be thrown in to poverty, I can always vote for someone else at the first chance I get (and in other (better) democracies, they can even impeach their leaders who are doing wrong). If the US government (or Chinese, Russian, Saudi Arabian, whatever) makes a decision that could throw me and many other people in to poverty, I can only sit back and watch it happen, with absolutely now way to influence it. In the modern world, the number of decisions made by national governments that affect the international population are becoming more and more frequent. A RL example might be the global credit crunch. It was caused primarily by the US sub-prime mortgage crisis, which itself can largely be blamed on very little regulation by the US government of the financial sector. Despite the fact that the European financial sector tends to be much more tightly regulated and watched (which prevented exactly the same crisis from happening over here), the European (and global) economies have now largely been thrown into disarray. In short, a decision by the US government (a democracy) has made a direct and negative impact on my own local democracy, and at no point have I been able to cast a vote to voice my opinion on the matter. Despite the fact I live in a democracy and all the major players in the drama are also democracies, I'm completely disenfranchised from any democratic process regarding the issue. A theoretical "world government" would enable a true democracy, where nothing that can affect any individual can get through without letting them voice a democratic opinion on the matter. This is good- and there are few people who would dare argue that true democracy for everyone is a bad thing. Of course the downside is that large governments tend to be bureaucratic and corrupt, but thats a problem which in theory could be fixed. In theory. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:29:00 - [148] Edited by: Isiskhan on 16/06/2008 19:04:48 Corruption is an inherent liability of being human, it's very hard to get around that, but what we can do is to try to minimize the conditions that provide a fertile ground for it to flourish. And I do think that smaller parties and governments are more easily prone to fall for it. As an example, during the last elections in Spain the opposition party had as it proposed minister of economy the former CEO of the largest Spanish energy corporation, showcasing his a experience in that position as the right man for the job. Now, I'm not saying he would've necessarily been corrupt as a minister, but after decades of being in the business he's likely developed connections, friendships and ties to many other CEOs and companies whose business would've been affected by whatever policies he would've implemented... so I see that as a ripe opportunity for corruption to seep in, much the same way that Enron's executives close ties with the White House were conducive to the deregulation measures that eventually led to the fallout and scandal that ensued. On the other hand, in the context of Europe, it wouldn't just be this single guy calling the shots about important economic policies, but him and the 26 other finance ministers from the rest of the European countries, making it much more difficult that some corporate conglomerate or special interest groups got all or most of them into their pocket to regulate (or not regulate) things in a self-serving way. To make some sort of analogy in EVE terms, that's why it is good we have a CSM composed of 9 members, and not just 1 or 3. Having a small number there would increase the likehood that decisions would be affected by the ties / affinities the representatives could have to certain alliances or collectives (say industrialists or pirates). The more representatives in the CSM we have, the more the decision field is evened out... ... the downside being that the more representatives we have, the more difficult taking decisions can be, as there's a higher likelyhood of disagreements and conflicts. One of the things that the Lisbon Treaty is trying to address is precisely this, by modifying some of the decision taking processes in order to minimize deadlock situations and them more fluid - among other things by reducing veto powers of individual countries. That's precisely one of the problems the UN has right now: there's a small number of countries that hold veto power, and certain resolutions are blocked over and over again because a specific country keeps vetoing them, leading to inaction on the problem (the US and Russia being probably the biggest culprits on this).
nahtoh Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:53:00 - [149] Originally by: Isiskhan Edited by: Isiskhan on 16/06/2008 19:04:48 Corruption is an inherent liability of being human, it's very hard to get around that, but what we can do is to try to minimize the conditions that provide a fertile ground for it to flourish. And I do think that smaller parties and governments are more easily prone to fall for it. On the other hand, in the context of Europe, it wouldn't just be this single guy calling the shots about important economic policies, but him and the 26 other finance ministers from the rest of the European countries, making it much more difficult that some corporate conglomerate or special interest groups got all or most of them into their pocket to regulate (or not regulate) things in a self-serving way. To make some sort of analogy in EVE terms, that's why it is good we have a CSM composed of 9 members, and not just 1 or 3. Having a small number there would increase the likehood that decisions would be affected by the ties / affinities the representatives could have to certain alliances or collectives (say industrialists or pirates). The more representatives in the CSM we have, the more the decision field is evened out... ... the downside being that the more representatives we have, the more difficult taking decisions can be, as there's a higher likelyhood of disagreements and conflicts. One of the things that the Lisbon Treaty is trying to address is precisely this, by modifying some of the decision taking processes in order to minimize deadlock situations and them more fluid - among other things by reducing veto powers of individual countries. That's precisely one of the problems the UN has right now: there's a small number of countries that hold veto power, and certain resolutions are blocked over and over again because a specific country keeps vetoing them, leading to inaction on the problem (the US and Russia being probably the biggest culprits on this). And the aduitors were so happy with the EUs accounting they happly signed of on the accounts...oh wait ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
mamolian Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:22:00 - [150] Edited by: mamolian on 16/06/2008 21:22:22 Im glad this treaty was rejected in Ireland.. The more I read about it the happier I am.. I voted correctly. Someone posted this earlier.. go watch it ffs http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607&q=end%20of%20nations&ei=ZexUSPSBD4aG2wLFwOzYDA -----------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:28:00 - [151] Originally by: mamolian Edited by: mamolian on 16/06/2008 21:22:22 Im glad this treaty was rejected in Ireland.. The more I read about it the happier I am.. I voted correctly. Someone posted this earlier.. go watch it ffs http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607&q=end%20of%20nations&ei=ZexUSPSBD4aG2wLFwOzYDA I wouldn't bother. Its propagandistic rubbish. I'm not even going to comment whether or not the content is true (it may or may not be, depending how you look at it), but the way its presented is in the worst light of biased nationalistic nonsense. If you want to learn about the Lisbon treaty, at least go to a tiny bit more reputable source (and hint: not one of the websites of either the "No" or the "Yes" campaigners, both succumbing to the same nonsensical rubbish as each other). ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:28:00 - [152] yeah don't bother watching or listening to anything just let others decide for you without telling you what it's about at all.. because the media is not biased only those with different views are. that's exactly the mentality that allows this to go on. and isis, what an awesome spin, one question.. are you f'ing kidding me? how is 1000 people easier to bribe or manipulate than 50? you are gradually indoctrinated into every step, thinking it is exactly the best way to do things, and then when the sjit hits the fan they'll say, you chose this yourself, eventhough you didn't you just thought you did. they hide their lies behind dubious logic but keep reiterating it so many times that you start to believe it. i mean, everyone is saying it so you should say it too otherwise how would people look at you, so many people can't be wrong.. right? media magic is lovely isn't it? it's coincidentally also a very old and heavily time tested brainwashing technique, and my oh my it sure works don't it. even without a shread of tangible proof. terror terror war on terror evil terrorists terror terror, global terrorism, september 11th september 11th, terror, war, terror terror, ***** ben ladin, al qaida, terror terror terror, they take our freedom away, they hate us because of our freedom, terror terror, terrorists, evil terrorists, bombs, muslims al quaida terrorists, weapons of mass destruction, we know they have them we know they have them we know they have them we know they have them we know they have them, terror terror terror, weapons of mass destruction, global terror, FEAR evil terrorists, fear fear fear terror, global terrorism, your neighbourgh could be a terrorist, terror terror terror, evil terrorist. don't say it doesn't work because you believed it too didn't you, without asking any questions whatsoever, eventhough they had nothing tangible but their words to show for it, and then when it was proven that they lied you didn't even care did you, because at this point you believe them so much that whatever they do is ok cause we need to take care of the evil terrorists, binding the lies together in your head and tell you anything they want to tell you. lulled to sleep. sleep little lamb sleep and let us take care of you and protect you from evil.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.17 01:18:00 - [153] Ah, but you see, the War in Terror you've injected into this thread out of nowhere, illustrates the positive points about pan-national unions when it comes to the corruption of a particular government. The White House might've been able to sell their bullsh*t Iraq invasion to the majority the US congress and populance back in the day to support them, but they certainly didn't sell it to the majority of governments and peoples beyond their borders. If the US had had to submit to vote of other countries their decision to go to war, they would've failed, and wouldn't have been able to declare war without a major international crisis with the other members. I don't know if you were paying attention to the events back in 2003 (beyond dogdy internet videos), but the US actually tried to organize a UN Security Council vote on the Iraq war (for the sake of their European allies who wanted one), but the White House decided to scrap the vote - and just simply go to war - days before it was meant to take place once it became clear they were going to lose it. (The UN couldn't pass a resolution to stop them from going to war either, given the US veto power in the Security Council - but the lack of the UN's effective authority when it comes to one of its permanent members (or their interests) is another story, and precisely one of its current problems). Precisely one of the things the Lisbon Treaty is calling for is to have a unified defence policy amongst its members, to be decided by vote in the European Council - the collection of EU member's current prime ministers. Perhaps the Irish "No" proponents want to retain their right to declare war unilateraly regardless of what other members think, and believe it would be somehow "undemocratic" if they couldn't. But, oh well, I'm personally all for not letting the decision to go to war on the hands of a single rotten apple.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.06.17 01:31:00 - [154] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 17/06/2008 01:36:10 Originally by: Isiskhan Ah, but you see, the War in Terror you've injected into this thread out of nowhere, illustrates the positive points about pan-national unions when it comes to the corruption of a particular government. The White House might've been able to sell their bullsh*t Iraq invasion to the majority the US congress and populance back in the day to support them, but they certainly didn't sell it to the majority of governments and peoples beyond their borders. If the US had had to submit to vote of other countries their decision to go to war, they would've failed, and wouldn't have been able to declare war without a major international crisis with the other members. I don't know if you were paying attention to the events back in 2003 (beyond dogdy internet videos), but the US actually tried to organize a UN Security Council vote on the Iraq war (for the sake of their European allies who wanted one), but the White House decided to scrap the vote - and just simply go to war - days before it was meant to take place once it became clear they were going to lose it. (The UN couldn't pass a resolution to stop them from going to war either, given the US veto power in the Security Council - but the lack of the UN's effective authority when it comes to one of its permanent members (or their interests) is another story, and precisely one of its current problems). Precisely one of the things the Lisbon Treaty is calling for is to have a unified defence policy amongst its members, to be decided by vote in the European Council - the collection of EU member's current prime ministers. Perhaps the Irish "No" proponents want to retain their right to declare war unilateraly regardless of what other members think, and believe it would be somehow "undemocratic" if they couldn't. But, oh well, I'm personally all for not letting the decision to go to war on the hands of a single rotten apple. the war was outright illegal going against the constitution of the united states and backed by the media and mislead citizens and otheres were not heard, so seeking UN security council vote, which was just a play for the gallery saying we really wanted you to say yes but since you didn't say yes we just went ahead and did it anyways but atleast we tried eventhough whatever you decided if it was against what we decided it wouldn't matter. because it would be done regardless and then it turned out it was all a lie, right according to plan to use the puppets greed and letting them think they were running the show.. getting oil and opium fields control in afghanistan, only they will later be slaughtered publicly for lying and new puppets put in. and now people think everyone wants to go to war. oh yes because that's what everybody wants right.. oh wait.. read the first part again.. nobody wanted the war or decrease in freedom or to fear their neighbourghs because they had no reason to. so lies needed to be told to make it possible and no explanation or proper investigation was undertaken and it was swept under the rock whilst directing the world to look in another direction. and now to prevent that such things happen again.. (they knew it was illegal it was done so sloppy deliberately to make the next step "obvious" and "logical") we have a strong incentive (out of nowhere haha) to make a one world government (under preparation in the EU for years) so that such things do not happen, only this time we're not even going to let you really vote for certain steps of this because you could mess it all up then... you've been so masterfully played that you don't even realize it.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:47:00 - [155] Yes. The biggest irony with the US decision of going on to a war based on deceptions for self-interest reasons through bypassing the UN, is that it illustrates why we need to reform the UN to remove veto powers and give it more collective authority over rogue administrations: not just as it did over Iraq in 1990 regarding the invasion of Kuwait, but also over the US in 2003 regarding the invasion of Iraq. If you ask me, the UN should be dragging Bush's (and Blair's and Aznar's...) asses after his mandate to something like the Hague International Court for war crimes and given a fair trial - something he's denying his captured POWs - just like it was done with Serbia's Milosevic, but currently it lacks the power and authority to do so (plus a host of other complications). But then in your funny head the UN is secretly controlled by Cthulhu, so of course this idea comes out as anathema.
Ademaro Imre	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:57:00 - [156] Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 17/06/2008 03:57:13 Originally by: Isiskhan Edited by: Isiskhan on 17/06/2008 03:02:40 Yes. The biggest irony with the US decision of going on to a war based on deceptions for self-interest reasons through bypassing the UN, is that it illustrates why we need to reform the UN to remove veto powers and give it more collective authority over rogue administrations: not just as it did over Iraq in 1990 regarding the invasion of Kuwait, but also over the US in 2003 regarding the invasion of Iraq. Maybe someday you will familiarize yourself with the UN security council, especially, many of their unanimous decisions on Iraq prior to the invasion. Wait, that might require you to evolve your world-view of the United States. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.17 04:07:00 - [157] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Maybe someday you will familiarize yourself with the UN security council, especially, many of their unanimous decisions on Iraq prior to the invasion. Wait, that might require you to evolve your world-view of the United States. You are obviously trying to imply those previous resolutions authorized the US to go to war, and you are dead wrong - though I'm aware that's the line some have tried to misleadingly argue about it. Remember: the US seeked a further resolution that would authorized them to it, but pulled out of it just a couple days before the vote, once it was clear they would lose it despite all the negotiations they attempted. You also seem to imply I have some sort of anti-American view of the world. Dead wrong again. I am American. I was born in Spain and lived the majority of my life here, but I've spent an awful amount of time there, keep going there regularly, and have other ties with it aside from family. The US is my second country. I just didn't buy the line that critizing your current crook of an administration (or even put it on trial) is un-patriotic in any way. Actually, I believe the opposite is true: the founding fathers tried to implement a comprehensive system of check and balances in US government that obviously has failed regarding this war, and something must be done to correct this.
Ademaro Imre	Posted - 2008.06.17 04:30:00 - [158] Originally by: Isiskhan Actually, I believe the opposite is true: the founding fathers tried to implement a comprehensive system of check and balances in US government that obviously has failed regarding this war, and something must be done to correct this. The House and Senate authorized the war. In fact, just to be sure, they had a another vote, and authorized it again. If you really need to complain about failures, complain about the CIA, the UK and every other intelligence organization getting duped by ****'s generals telling **** himself they had obtained wmd's. If anyone believed that Iraq did not have a wmd program, they had 5 years to explain it since the first attack on Iraq, since the 1990 war, on December 16th 1998 for their capacity of wmds. You should read Clinton's speech he made for it, take out his name and you would have thought it was Bush. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Isiskhan Gnostic Misanthropy	Posted - 2008.06.17 04:36:00 - [159] It seems that, among many other things, this piece of news from June 5th has completely gone over your head: Quote: A U.S. Senate committee report said Thursday that U.S. officials from President George W. Bush on down deliberately distorted facts to persuade American citizens to support an invasion of Iraq. ... The report also faulted American leaders for claiming Iraq would give terrorist groups chemical, biological or nuclear weapons and for saying Iraq was developing drones to spread chemical or biological agents over the United States. None of the claims was borne out by intelligence.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.19 22:23:00 - [160] Originally by: hattifnatt It isnt very democratic that ireland was the ONLY country who even got to vote about it. Hey, we voted in the peeps that are voting on this issue, hence it is democracy unless I am missing something major. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.06.20 11:17:00 - [161] I find the illusion of people's choice fascinating and interesting. --- Its dead, Jim.
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.06.20 11:32:00 - [162] SOMEONE LOCK THIS THREAD THE PEOPLE IN IT ARE BEGGINING TO GET ON MY NERVES!! EMORAGE!
corporal hicks Imperium Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.20 13:14:00 - [163] Dosent matter anymore anyway stupid Irish voted no and now will have another referendum to give them the chance to vote the correct way, ie yes. Democracy at work. Stupid Eu have gone to far this time, next referendum will still be no with even more No votes now that the Eu have resorted to trying to bully the Irish people. " Stay Frosty "
Spawinte Virulence.	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:01:00 - [164] LOL @ the conspiracy nuts. I'm Irish. My voting docs were sent to the wrong address without me knowing but I intended to vote no. I want Ireland to stay in the EU. I have seen the benefits Ireland has taken from being in the EU and think eastern european countries should receive the same support we did for years. Yes the majority of people did not FULLY understand the treaty but they understood that voting YES could damage Irelands ability to set its own economic policys and social laws (it was basically tax rates, corporation tax rates and abortion law). The treaty might have (not certainly) allowed EU laws to begin overriding certain Irish laws. It was said in the Irish parliament after the vote and I am saying it again now, people are worried sick about their jobs. Things are starting to go downhill in Ireland with unemployment climbing steeply and a huge budget deficit predicted. We are going to protect out interests and the rest of Europe can be as ****y as they like about it, we don't care. It is very possible for the treaty to be ratified by October simply by giving us concessions on the areas of concern. People in this thread saying --- i'm not trying to slam the Irish but... --- and then proceeding to crap all over us should be ashamed. We didn't reject the treaty to spoil your party we did it to protect ourselves. If you ask most people in Ireland how much of the power we have in the EU they would probably give and answer less than 1/27th. Its not about keeping power its about keeping the right to control our own affairs. Oh and one more thing, The Lisbon treaty IS the EU constitution. After the constitution was rejected it was decided to break it down into more digestible parts and pass them one by one. If a referendum had been held in all other European countries I belive it would have been rejected by a number of nations both large and small. -----
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:15:00 - [165] Originally by: Danton Marcellus This is why they won't let people vote in the other countries. that is correct people voted.. said no.. nobody wants them to vote again.. because they will keep saying no. ins't his just PINK? . Stuff I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting this sig space. Open to take on various jobs.

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