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Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.16 23:16:00 - [31] Regarding ISK issues, the reason why everyone and their mother have seemingly infinite cash compared to the days of yore is the same thing that plagues every MMO once they've been around long enough: Infinite resources to exploit. Whether it's bashing animals in WoW or battling pirates or mining in EVE, there's basically an endless influx of money into the system.. One of my friends play WoW and has been doing so since it was fairly new. Back then it was hard to come by tons of gold but today everyone have epic mounts and 5 level 70 or 80, or how much is the uper limit, chracters that can smack around a couple of high level monsters and then send what amounts to a small fortune to their alts or friend's low level character. In EVE, these tendencies can sometimes reach silly proportions because we're 200-something thousand people on one giant server, playing the same game. Imagine all the new money that enter the economy in form of minerals from miners in one day.. The only real reason why it isn't totally broken is because your ship and (typically more expensive) fitting goes "poof" when shot. Of course, it doesn't help one bit that I can pay 30 odd million to insure my Raven and then get a payout of over 100 million ISK when it blows up.. While not as bad as some ships, it still means your net expense only amounts to something like 10-15 million for the ship itself, since a Raven goes for about 86 million on the market. I'm certain there are also other reasons as to why but this is one that applies to just about every MMO out there, since none of them do much to take money out of the system compared to the amount that enters. EVE tries but the more players you have and the longer this goes on, the more the average EVE player will have in his/her wallet. Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Mika Meroko The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... i wholeheartedly agree with this statement. its the #1 reason why the assets i earn will never be in a position to be lost by someone i do not know, directly or indirectly, unless it was a shared effort to gain those resources. and even then, i'd be hard pressed to be in a position with no control. been there, done that. had a great time but i don't even have a t-shirt to show for it. You're doing it wrong.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:17:00 - [33] New players need more cash than you guys did back in the day. Today's new players must compete with players who have 100 million skillpoints and live in player-run empires.
Retim Tar	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:30:00 - [34] You worry about no risk in empire? You better worry about no risk in 0.0.... 0.0 space can offer you way too much money and most of it is 99% secure by the alliance that hold (except if its at war, which is not that common for a single alliance to go at war every month...) so rest of time ppl in 0.0 accumulate big money. In my alliance i can mine zydrine in 0.0 much safer than mine in low sec, and with those suicide hulk killing gangs (lol) even safer than high sec... One guy said that a hac would be valuable and you couldn't just replace it with a couple of missions... Well what about the titan. I see them popping like mushrooms. They supposed to be very expensive, they supposed to be hard to build, they supposed to be valuable, they suppsoed to be very hard to replace if you lose it. Doesn't look like it imho. Big alliances in 0.0 have money beyond your wildest dreams, believe me... The poor guy in empire that does misions is nothing.
syphurous Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:31:00 - [35] I would just like to say that NPC corps have heaps of player interaction. 30 Man mining fleets ( eat your hearts out Player Mining Corps ), small gang roaming fleets in low and 0.0. You can tell us from the macro's, we dont have random names. :P Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
Jawas	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:39:00 - [36] Edited by: Jawas on 17/06/2008 02:47:15 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It looks like that isn't a requirement any more thanks to the highly rewarding missions in empire space. Highly rewarding? Connections 3, Negotiation 4. Agent quality roughly 10. lvl3 average 1 million bounties + 1 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 2.5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 30 minutes average time taken (solo). lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). Even mining the most common ore pays better than that. Mining 3 cans of veldspar per hour for 1 hour pays around 7.5 million. One of the main reasons players have more isk is because there is much more on the market. The greed of some manufacturers who double the price in some regions as compared to others means there's an advantage for astute traders to get very rich very quick. It takes a huge investment and a long trip but it can be very lucrative. Edit: made it easier to read -- Sig design in training: Remaining time 30 years 20 days, 4 hours, 10 mins, 15 seconds.
command sheep	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Jawas lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). u must have the worst lvl4 agent in eve. i make around 10-20million isk an hour (depends on how lucky i am in getting the very good paying missions from my agent). this is with just a few weeks of skill training on this char and a standard t2-fitted raven. after CCP reduced the difficulty of missions (yes, i already ran missions in the "good old" times, when they were really hard, of course with another char ;) ) there is nearly none risk left in lvl4 missions. i mean if u dont try to trigger any trigger in the mission u can find there is mostly not enough dps in most mission to even break the natural shield recharge of a raven ...
Valkazm Russian Specnaz Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:37:00 - [38] I dont see the problem i myself have never passed beyond level 3 missions and have only minned in low sec and 0.0 .. i admire the empire dwellers they have the utmost patience ever i just cant live like that missions where boring high sec minning was to much of a bore .. It takes alot of patience and dedication to make it work in empire my first million in empire came from alot of hauling and trading alot of jumps when we couldnt even warp to zero .. Honestly i havent seen the big perks in empire .. ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk
Faife Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:43:00 - [39] so most of eve lives in high sec, so what?
Toria Nynys	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Faife so most of eve lives in high sec, so what? Translation: op can't find enough defenseless n00bs ratting in frigates to OMGWTFPWN in the face. It's hard work being 1337 these days.
Pilot Abilene Serpentine Dream Theory	Posted - 2008.06.17 04:02:00 - [41] lol EVE Elitism at it's finest...god forbid newbies having some isk because the game has progressed and changed to cater for the needs of the elitist players over the years. New comers are just getting their chunk of it on the side too, get over it.
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co.	Posted - 2008.06.17 05:48:00 - [42] I agree (sort of)! Make level 3, 4 and 5 missions harder (and maybe level 2s a little bit), but then increase the rewards! That'd be cool. But anyway, back to the point... I'm awesome :D
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.06.17 05:51:00 - [43] People need to go 0.0 or lowsec, they say. People need reasons to leave empire, they say. And shure as hell PvEers should do Missions, Ratting and Mining in lowsec, they say. The answer is so simple: "Where? Why?" Really - I like eve, even as it is now. :) THINGS CHANGE!
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.17 06:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime I CCP, please up the ante. Please change the missions so that level 1-2 (maybe 3) = solo, level 3-4 = gang/corp missions and 4-5 = corp/alliance missions. Yes, why the triple BS spawn can be done solo? they should require at least a small gang, faction should require a large gang or some capital ship. Officer? at least a large gang with capitals, spider tanking and several wings (they drop several billions in modules!). No? You disagree? "But it is 0.0 ecc." Most 0.0 farming is aas risky as level 4 mission, so if you wnat to reduce the PvE rewards, it should be done across the board.
F'nog Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 06:42:00 - [45] On the one hand, I don't have a problem with players hoarding ISK through missions, ratting, invention, PvP, whatever. On the other hand, I feel that Eve has become too easy with the ways that even new players can make a ton of money. I don't want new players stuck in the poor box like I was for my first several weeks/months. But I don't like that they can make so many millions or even billions so quickly. This isn't a dig against new players. If you do a lot of research and make a couple billion through shrewd market manipulations, scamming, etc. I don't have much of a problem, as this is rare. But the ease with which players only a few weeks old can afford CNRs through mindlessly grinding missions makes the game less satisfactory. When I started, you really had to work for a million ISK. It could takes days to make it if you didn't spend anything on new skills or mods. I don't want it to be that bad, but I also don't want it to be so easy that in a 2 weeks players can afford a BS plus fittings and insurance, plus the raw ISK to buy a new one or two and a set of +3/4 implants. Taking one's time really pays off in this game. It makes it far more enjoyable. But the ease with which new players can amass wealth is really shocking nowadays. It tends to lead players to going for the big stuff and missing everything before it, which can mean a lot of the fun. I think powering through the game leads to less retention, as it's too easy to get all the cool stuff and move on. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.17 07:56:00 - [46] Originally by: F'nog When I started, you really had to work for a million ISK. Wen I started, we had 100K Sp against the current 800K, a Dominix did cost around 100 million against the current 55 millions, a Mega 120-130 against the current 90 or so. And the same cost difference was present for all the ships. So a new player losing a insured frigate wasn't losing only the 30% cost of the platinum insurance + modules, he was losing 50% of the ship market price, plus the 30% of the database worth for the insurance, plus the modules. The net effect of this changes is that a new player losing his ship in a mission (and when yous tart you lose them often) isn't pushed back to half of what he had before but instead he lose a very small sum. That and the higher skills allow him to get faster to the bigger ships (and again he lose very little when he lose a BC or BS). So he would be getting more isk (proportionally) in the first part of his EVE career than it was possible 2 years ago (or 5 years ago). Salvaging add to that as, while it is a time sink for more experienced players, it is a good time/isk ratio for players doing lvel 1 and 2 missions. Summing up the above, player today are getting more isk at the low SP levels than before, while (at least in PvE) they don't get more isk than 2 years ago at the higher SP levels (they get less probably, plenty of farmable missions have been removed/changed and LP are worth a lot less).
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 08:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Mika Meroko btw, Low sec and 0.0 ARE more profitable than highsec.. you just need to know what you are doing AND have the muscle to back it up (key being... most newbies dont have that muscle/friends to unseat established entities) […] The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... This knocked the head of that proverbial nail clean off! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime 1. Where is the risk vs. reward doing level 4 missions in empire ? Is there any risk at all ? Ehmmm… you could get your salvage stolen… and that's about it. Not really a "risk" as the word is commonly understood. Originally by: Empyre i've been playing for years myself and it took a long time and a lot of skill training to be able to solo L4s. Originally by: Kelli Flay Another thing: as someone who used to be a mission runner, I can vouch that it is hard work. You really have to be highly skilled to get to the point where you can solo most lvl 4's easily. Whaa? Highly skilled? I have yet to come across a single lvl4 I can't solo with ease, and I'm 6 months old – 3 of which were spent training for ye olde Hulk… I wouldn't exactly call it myself "highly skilled" when it comes to combat. Sure, it may be "hard work" in the sense that it's a bit of a grind, but it's not particularly difficult.. Originally by: Jawas Highly rewarding? Connections 3, Negotiation 4. Agent quality roughly 10. lvl3 average 1 million bounties + 1 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 2.5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 30 minutes average time taken (solo). lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). Wth are you doing in your missions?! My lvl3s averaged 15-20min (including salvaging on the go) and payed out 5mil minimum. My lvl4s take maybe an hour on average (in a BC, 'cause BS:es are for sissies ) and pay out 10mil/h, and that's with f-a social skills and a -3qual agent.
Pritkij Kaban Unbound Universe	Posted - 2008.06.17 09:19:00 - [48] I see OPs concern. Yet I dont understand it. 1. Almost every MMO passes eliticism state, but for the love of God, it is utterly stupid resorting to pink memories for non-contructive purpose. "OMG in 5.5 CS beta uns hav had different penetration and MAC-10 could rule OMG now they made it @@@@!!!11" 2. "having great time doing missions"...my ass Ppl having fun exclusively from missions just dont have good offline games on their pcs, but then there are no such ppl. Every player finds balance between his EVE ambitions, RL timing, efforts and rewards (I hate "risk vs reward" @@@@ btw, just because EVE is last game where risk is rewarded, be it blob warfare, small gang pvp or marketing. Well-prepared swift action rules, spotaneous move perishes). Some want to put a lot of time into warfare, some are not. Some can pay attention for several hours while on demanding fleet operation, some require semi-afk regime for countless reasons. Whining about players who plays another way is simply ignorant and bring nothing. ------------ Think, it surprises sometime
WA Dragon 108 Field Squadron RM RE	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:34:00 - [49] FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it is just not worth the time, unless you use a small fleet of macro miners that is, and have a POS with a bunch of labs that will soon get popped by some dumb ass pirate corp who will war deck you just to pop your pos. I am sorry to say this but IMHO EVE seems to be on a downward spiral with no escape. The market got flooded with minerals from the new 0.0 drone space and the countless macro miners pushing the price of minerals down to where trit is now worth more than pyrite. CCP congratz you ruined eve by making the new drone 0.0 space and not banning the macros at the start, its no good closing the barn door now the horse has long since bolted. The end is comming just how close it is is up to CCP. Can they turn this around who knows. To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question?
Yin Sue	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:43:00 - [50] Your thread raises several issues, I'm just going to answer to one of its aspects talking from personal experience. All the people living in Empire don't stay there just because it's safer/profitable. Some of them just don't have a choice, they're not welcome elsewhere. Try joining a 0.0 corp if you have less than 10m SPs, no one will want you. If a corp does accept you it's probably a not so great corp, meaning life in 0.0 will be even harder than it is for the majority of people living in 0.0 So that person might end up going back to high sec. I have 5m SPs, I'd love to live in null sec, I don't mind about safety, I don't mind about losing assets, it's all virtual to me, I like the thrill of living in danger, but on my own it's just suicide, and finding a decent corp when you have little experience is sometimes even harder than surviving solo.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:01:00 - [51] Originally by: WA Dragon lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it Weeeell… tbh, the production side is far more ruined by players who sell their products at a loss just because they believe that ore and salvage is free if you collect it yourself.
Sebastian Valance Chaotic Navigation	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:36:00 - [52] Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:42:21 Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:40:50 Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:39:14 Originally by: Mika Meroko Edited by: Mika Meroko on 16/06/2008 23:14:44 The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... think about it for a sec.. do you honestly trust anyone in eve that you cant physically molest in real life? the answer is no.... and if you answer yes, I would like to borrow 500 million please. I will pay it back (realisticly) in a year at 550 million. it is the lack of trust and accountably that makes alot of people solo players in eve... think about that... QFT Trust is the most precious commodity in EVE, especially for 0.0 Corps/Alliances. I am one of those Players that no 0.0 Corp or Alliance would want to trust. Why? In my case two very important reasons... Firstly I am a casual player that only keeps my sub(s) active for a month or two at a time then leaves EVE for 4 to 6 months, then resubs again. What 0.0 Corp or Alliance wants a member they can't trust to stick around? What Corp CEO wants to keep giving and taking away permissions, roles, and access to a Player that's on again/off again? Secondly because others Players don't want to get jacked around and **'d over by somebody like me (case in point my old Main was Gardavil [TOOC] and the old members of that corp can tell you horror stories about how I was a massive pain in the arse to them). I understand this simple truth about myself and choose to keep my characters in a one man Corp and play EVE in a way that I enjoy without being the cause of some of the drama(politics) that really ** off alot of players in 0.0. I know I am not alone in this...There are alot of players that wouldn't be good members in a 0.0 Corp thus explaining at least some of the many solo players in EVE. If you can't trust a player, then why do you want them in your 0.0 Corp/Alliance? Let them do what they want in Empire, it's better for everyone in the long run. Now as to ISK being easier to get now then years ago...agreed it is; but there is also alot more to do in EVE then there was when I started playing in 2004, there is alot more Players....it's just economic growth as I see it. edit=spelling, need more coffee ______________________________________________ Sabastian Valance
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 13:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Even according to CCP's internal studies 76% of the EVE population lives in high sec You should reread those numbers. According to the last econ report over half of the population went to low sec in the last 2 weeks. People who enter low sec are the majority. People who stay in high sec are the minority.
Traidor Disloyal NightCrew	Posted - 2008.06.17 14:41:00 - [54] Here's my opinion: I played this game back in 2003 when it first came out. I quit 3 months later. I came back in August of 2006. I've stayed. It was a pain in the ass to get a crusier back then. It aint such a pain now. In fact I seem to have more fun now then I did then. I also don't do blobs out in 0.0. I do miss one aspect of 2003. I could shoot someone in High Sec without getting Concorded. --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:10:00 - [55] Edited by: Empyre on 17/06/2008 16:10:30 Originally by: WA Dragon FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it is just not worth the time, unless you use a small fleet of macro miners that is, and have a POS with a bunch of labs that will soon get popped by some dumb ass pirate corp who will war deck you just to pop your pos. I am sorry to say this but IMHO EVE seems to be on a downward spiral with no escape. The market got flooded with minerals from the new 0.0 drone space and the countless macro miners pushing the price of minerals down to where trit is now worth more than pyrite. CCP congratz you ruined eve by making the new drone 0.0 space and not banning the macros at the start, its no good closing the barn door now the horse has long since bolted. The end is comming just how close it is is up to CCP. Can they turn this around who knows. FACT! people make up facts and statistics all the time! case in point. ratting in a moderately rated 0.0 system, i can casually rat and make around 30m an hour, more if i dedicate the time but i'm shooting for average here. and thats not including any faction loot or implants that drop, nor the hauler spawns that can drop some serious minerals. the best mission, in terms of isk gained, i can run is guristas extravaganza, which pulls in around 20-25m for the whole thing. this is including bounties, rewards and selling refined loot and salvage. the mission takes around 2.5 hours solo unless i rush it and skip the loot/salvage. edit: and try to get faction loot from a mission. won't happen. you're full of crap. You're doing it wrong.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:34:00 - [56] I am extremely pleased that the 0.5+ carebears can make a nice profit and enjoy themselves in 0.5+ space. Well done CCP!! The ability of Eve to handle a variety of playing styles is one of its strength. Heck, if anything I'd like to see 0.5+ even MORE carebear friendly. ("Casual" ganking should be limited to low sec and 0.0. Ganking should be possible in high sec, but not casual ganking). And I'm not joking. Play nice while you butcher each other.
gpfwestie Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:35:00 - [57] Originally by: WA Dragon FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. What a complete load of utter rubbish. As someones already said, the best L4 mission (Angel Extravaganza) nets you 30 odd mill and takes 2.5 hours where you have to be online all that time. The lowliest of lowly 0.0 dweller can rat the belts and earn an easy 30 Mill an hour, and can do it casually (rat a belt, go eat lunch, rat another belt) Any Miner in 0.0 can make similar amounts, if you can get the stuff back to empire to sell Any corp with real 0.0 presence will have moon mining operations going, which brings in billions a month. Any Alliance will have refine taxes on outposts which will again net them billions a month.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:52:00 - [58] 30mil an hour in 0.0 is actually quite a lot. 18-20 is more likely as an upper limit on bounties in all but some of the very best systems. Lvl 4 missions pay well, it is more convenient to sell loot/salvage/minerals, and have the rewards of the LP store. All in all, they are both pretty much on a par with each other ... except one is much, much, much safer. Many of the balance problems in Eve stem from the over-availability of easily earned ISK. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Pritkij Kaban Unbound Universe	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:23:00 - [59] War Fairy, just because safety through blobs works equally well in 0.0, low and hi sec Honestly, I see no point in whole discussion, except highlighting ability of EVE game design to handle variety of playing styles with moderate success (ok, I dont mean lag in fleet combat when split-second rumble turns into slideshow). ------------ Think, it surprises sometime
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:23:00 - [60] Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 17/06/2008 17:23:58 Originally by: Zinras Imagine all the new money that enter the economy in form of minerals from miners in one day. No money enters the game as minerals. The only sources of ISK (that I can think of atm) are from NPC bounties, selling NPC dog tags, missions and insurance payouts. The only ISK sinks are things like purchasing skills, purchasing BPOs, CSPA charges, clone upgrades, clone transfers, buying items for LP + ISK from agents, basically anything that causes your ISK to end up in an NPC wallet. I don't want to go back to the 2003 economy but I am worried about the future of the EVE economy. --

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