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Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:12:00 - [1] Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 16/06/2008 21:14:21 When EVE was released back in 2003, owning a frigate BPO was something doable (Rifter, 2.3 mil ISK), owning a cruiser BPO (Rupture, 62 mil ISK) needed dedication and something like a battleship BPO (over 900 mil ISK) was a dream reserved for the large corporations like Oracle. I just heard from an individual on the help channel that was asking about how to get rich quick. He was down to his last (??) "72 million ISK" with a spare, fully equipped, Drake in reserve. If someone can accumulate so much ISK, in such a short time, in empire doing missions, the I fear that the EVE universe has a serious problem. Why should new players even leave their warm and cosy NPC empire corporation and form a corporation to increase profits ? Why should they venture into low sec for greater gains ? Why should they even go near 0.0 space ? It appears to me that the "n00bs" in EVE are having a great time doing missions and upgrading their ships without having to really be involved with the community, let alone form/join a corporation. When EVE started, it was dog eat dog, and you had to form/join a corporation/alliance to survive. It looks like that isn't a requirement any more thanks to the highly rewarding missions in empire space. CCP, please up the ante. Please change the missions so that level 1-2 (maybe 3) = solo, level 3-4 = gang/corp missions and 4-5 = corp/alliance missions. You're not going to get player interaction with the current system. I can only hope that the militias can attack anyone, in any system (even in High Sec) if they are in an NPC (aligned corporation/tribe/etc.) so that people will see that EVE isn't a cake walk. JP --
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:13:00 - [2] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime When EVE was released back in 2005... Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Tamia Clant Originally by: Jaabaa Prime When EVE was released back in 2005... Fixed, was thinking 5 years while trying to type 2003. Corrected now --
The Bandid Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:16:00 - [4] Slaps Jaabaa, Eve was released in 03 matey, even i know that :P
Gojyu Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:21:00 - [5] Quote: You're not going to get player interaction with the current system. The numbers speak differently
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Gojyu Quote: You're not going to get player interaction with the current system. The numbers speak differently And just how big of a percentage of the total EVE population are in those alliances ? What percentage of the EVE population are even out of empire space ? Consider the real numbers. --
DwiFF Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:26:00 - [7] I have got to agree tbh, eve is becoming 2 sided even with the new militia wars, its either Empire or 0.0 low sec is run by the heavy 0.0 alliances and high sec is a safe haven for making isk and wars while being some what untouchable. Im not that old of a character but i remember my first 10 mil handed to me by a friend to help me get started. i cherrished it and made the best of it struggling doing missions (before things like Drakes come out) and working for the game, now i feel with the tech 2 item drop in price and people macroing its making eve far to easy to play and make isk.
Malen Nenokal Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:34:00 - [8] Although slight inflation may have had -some- push on this. I don't think it was inflation that caused it. It was the new bloodlines. I've only been playing for a year now, but I would have loved to start with the original bloodlines, given the choice. Getting my first cruiser would have been much more rewarding. I can see why CCP did it, and the game is still very fun. But I think that is what caused your concerns. -
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:38:00 - [9] Various points, in no particular order: 1. I see no problem with the current isk flow. People who want isk can do it, people who want to do fun stuff together can do it, etc. All forcing people into making less isk will do is drive people away from the game. We found out the hard way with L5 missions that the whole risk vs reward thing sort of breaks down at some point, when 'good' ships get sufficiently expensive relative to the potential payout people just wont do it. 2. Yes, it was harder to get 100 million back then, but it also meant a whole helluva lot more. A battleship was a serious thing, top of the line, now its pretty much junk compared to HACs, CS, BO/Marauders, and of course the capitals that have blighted everything since 2006. 3. Not everyone wants to go into .0, particularly now that its mostly become an e-peening ground for big alliances and their mighty blobs of lag. Again, I see no problem with this--Eve is a sandbox game where one can do what they like, be it pirating, living fast and loose on the edge, being a soldier for a cause, or gasp just chilling out in empire space. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:39:00 - [10] Proudly, I don't think I've ever had as much as 200million in my account. I spend money far too fast ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Dessa DesPlains Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:40:00 - [11] Beacuse empire is boring and has too many lame-ass gankers?
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:44:00 - [12] Well the valuable parts of 0.0 are already secured by big alliances, with hundreds of players that have years of SPs. industry is dominated by t2 bpo holders, level 5 builders and maxed BPOs, and very slim margins. So where do new players look to make their mark - ammassing isk through mindless and low risk missioning, ratting and even mining. FW is step in right direction, in that it encourages T1 PVP again. But unless FW institutes some mechanisms that reward small gangs of T1 ships it will cut off a path that players can engage in the PVP aspects of the game. Every blood line should have a character set that can fly a T1 frig with MWD, web and Warp disruptor from the beginning.
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Del Narveux Various points, in no particular order: 1. I see no problem with the current isk flow. People who want isk can do it, people who want to do fun stuff together can do it, etc. All forcing people into making less isk will do is drive people away from the game. We found out the hard way with L5 missions that the whole risk vs reward thing sort of breaks down at some point, when 'good' ships get sufficiently expensive relative to the potential payout people just wont do it. 2. Yes, it was harder to get 100 million back then, but it also meant a whole helluva lot more. A battleship was a serious thing, top of the line, now its pretty much junk compared to HACs, CS, BO/Marauders, and of course the capitals that have blighted everything since 2006. 3. Not everyone wants to go into .0, particularly now that its mostly become an e-peening ground for big alliances and their mighty blobs of lag. Again, I see no problem with this--Eve is a sandbox game where one can do what they like, be it pirating, living fast and loose on the edge, being a soldier for a cause, or gasp just chilling out in empire space. 1. Where is the risk vs. reward doing level 4 missions in empire ? Is there any risk at all ? 2. 100 mil ISK back then and 100 mil ISK now should be just as hard to acquire IMO, then HACs, CS, etc. would really add value to the gang/fleet because you can't just replace them doing a couple of level 4 missions in empire on an alt/main. 3. The big alliances in 0.0 space started as little alliances in loc/0.0 sec space, there is little incentive for anyone to even go there atm considering the profits you can gain in high sec empire. --
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 21:53:00 - [14] Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 16/06/2008 21:53:43 Originally by: Qduhaf So where do new players look to make their mark - ammassing isk through mindless and low risk missioning, ratting and even mining. Well, they won't do it that way, which is exactly my point. At release we had loads of corporations in the "Molden Heath Defence Coalition" (MHDC) that covered each other's asses in low sec against the then pirate scum of the area SPVD. And out of things like that, grew other alliances and 0.0 control. But somehow, I don't think that new players have this need. Originally by: Qduhaf FW is step in right direction, in that it encourages T1 PVP again. But unless FW institutes some mechanisms that reward small gangs of T1 ships it will cut off a path that players can engage in the PVP aspects of the game. FW should have taken it 1 step further IMHO, if you are in an aligned NPC corporation and you are not a total new player (maybe >2 months) then you become a valid FW target. Originally by: Qduhaf Every blood line should have a character set that can fly a T1 frig with MWD, web and Warp disruptor from the beginning. How about no. --
NAMD3	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:02:00 - [15] Your complaining because people play the game they way they want, isn't this the concept of the game, A 'Sandbox' not everyone wants to PVP not everyone wants to trade and or become an industrialist, let the player who want to mission run let them, hows this affecting your PVP? if you cant earn your millions from the way you play the game do something else perhaps or get better at what your doing, its still dog eat dog game world speak to a mission runner who got suicide ganked for billions, think thats not harsh enough? The only noob is you...
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 16/06/2008 21:53:43 Originally by: Qduhaf Every blood line should have a character set that can fly a T1 frig with MWD, web and Warp disruptor from the beginning. How about no. So by not giving new players access to the bare essentials needed to be effective in PVP you force them into a playstyle of ratting, missioning or mining in highsec. You can't say that people should play the way you did when the game was released, everyone was on an even playing field then. Now you band together 10 frigs to fight pirates in lowsec and you will get ganked by 10 MOMS.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:04:00 - [17] well, at least its been a while since we've had a whine about missions. leave mission runners alone for crying out loud. i've been playing for years myself and it took a long time and a lot of skill training to be able to solo L4s. L5s are where you need support. they've nerfed missions twice and just increased the dps on npcs, stop whining for crying out loud and play the game YOU want to play and leave the rest of us alone. blame the politics of 0.0 for pushing everyone to empire, NOT the game mechanics. its still far more profitable to do just about anything in lo-sec/0.0. so do your thing and stop whining because you think someone is getting something you aren't. You're doing it wrong.
Qduhaf	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:07:00 - [18] want to make this game more fun, get rid of POS, all cap ships, and emergency warp log off. And while you are at it make level 4 missions in low sec only, and increase pay outs for level 5s, but only in 0.0. ofc instituting some form of small gang pick-up PVP through a missioning system would also be a possibility for CCP to institute.
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Qduhaf want to make this game more fun, get rid of POS, all cap ships, and emergency warp log off. And while you are at it make level 4 missions in low sec only, and increase pay outs for level 5s, but only in 0.0. ofc instituting some form of small gang pick-up PVP through a missioning system would also be a possibility for CCP to institute. Signed on just about everything apart from getting rid of cap ships, unless we can reassign invested SPs (training time) to other things, than that would be agreed to too --
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:24:00 - [20] maybe because making isk isn't everything in the game. actually getting more isk does nothing for you really, if you can't spend it what the hell is the point? I'll never understand people missioning in navy ravens for more isk. they already have the best ship they can use and they already have the best modules, why are they running missions? why don't they go spend the money? die a little?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 16/06/2008 21:28:23 Originally by: Gojyu Quote: You're not going to get player interaction with the current system. The numbers speak differently And just how big of a percentage of the total EVE population are in those alliances ? What percentage of the EVE population are even out of empire space ? Consider the real numbers. Edit: Even according to CCP's internal studies 76% of the EVE population lives in high sec this isn't counted FW which currently has over 20,000 people living in lowsec that were not.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Qduhaf Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 16/06/2008 21:53:43 Originally by: Qduhaf Every blood line should have a character set that can fly a T1 frig with MWD, web and Warp disruptor from the beginning. How about no. So by not giving new players access to the bare essentials needed to be effective in PVP you force them into a playstyle of ratting, missioning or mining in highsec. You can't say that people should play the way you did when the game was released, everyone was on an even playing field then. Now you band together 10 frigs to fight pirates in lowsec and you will get ganked by 10 MOMS. I agree... kinda. it takes 10 mins to train a new charatcer to this point.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:29:00 - [23] There is no inflation. Just economical growth.
Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:37:00 - [24] Edited by: Zinras on 16/06/2008 22:40:08 Dear OP, EVE is not what it was 5 years ago, whether you like it or not. Part of the sandbox is that the players change the game to how they see fit within the limits CCP sets. Perhaps you'd like to answer why people actually SHOULD go to 0.0 instead of doing what they want. Personally, 0.0 doesn't sound like a very fun place unless you have tons of cash to replace the ships you inevitably lose. If you've taken a look at the 0.0 maps lately, you'd notice that large parts (and certainly the most profitable) have long since been secured by large alliances who mostly operate on NBSI. I plan on going there sometime but you bet I'm not leaving on a god-knows-how-many-hour trip in a ship only to be shot to pieces the first time I set foot in the wrong system, if I don't have some sort of reliable backup in the form of cash and ships. Do I want to mission run? Gods no, but I like even less to be forced into massive alliances and attentionwhoring (sorry, I meant "politics"). So instead, I'm joining a friend in a high sec mostly PvP corp that is always at war with someone to get my basic PvP skills going. I get to both PvP and get time to collect some ISK when I enevitably get blown to pieces, without taking part in blobs or guarding system X because someone in BoB or Goonswarm sneezed in the general direction of that area. Edit: Needs better grammar Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Hannobaal Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:40:00 - [25] Edited by: Hannobaal on 16/06/2008 22:42:53 Originally by: LaVista Vista There is no inflation. Just economical growth. Exctly what I was going to write. People not understanding what inflation really is has become my pet peeve on this forum. If it was inflation, then it would be like people used to have say 10 mil in their wallet on average and now they have 100, but the 100 mil now buys about the same amount of stuff as 10 mil used to buy because the prices have all gone up. Other than that, I agree partially with the op.
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 16/06/2008 22:42:53 Originally by: LaVista Vista There is no inflation. Just economical growth. Exctly what I was going to write. People not understanding what inflation really is has become my pet peeve on this forum. If it was inflation, then it would be like people used to have say 10 mil in their wallet on average and now they have 100, but the 100 mil now buys about the same amount of stuff as 10 mil used to buy because the prices have all gone up. Other than that, I agree partially with the op. Fair enough, then let EVE economical growth apply to the NPC's control over BPOs and Skills. Revamp the skill and BPO prices to at least reflect average increases in base mineral prices. The NPC corporations, if they really existed as a separate entity, would also increase their prices as more ISK became available. So, based on your comment, skills and BPOs should now cost 10 times as much now too ? --
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:52:00 - [27] Sorry but the game isn't about to be rolled back to 2003 just because you are jealous that new players make more isk than when you were a noob. Yeah, i am sure they are really about to mess with the economy now that FW is out and for most players, those missions are the only thing keeping them in it. Another thing: as someone who used to be a mission runner, I can vouch that it is hard work. You really have to be highly skilled to get to the point where you can solo most lvl 4's easily. Even then, it becomes a tedious time consuming affair. Granted, you can make a lot of isk from it but it is a grind. I did the whole "look I have a shiny new Nightmare" thing as well and it isn't all it's ***ed up to be either. I agree with the last poster who said buying Faction ships is kind of counterproductive. I bought mine because I could though. Quite frankly, I now make much more** isk trading in Empire than I ever did in lvl 4's and I work only a fraction as hard for it.
Hannobaal Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 16/06/2008 22:42:53 Originally by: LaVista Vista There is no inflation. Just economical growth. Exctly what I was going to write. People not understanding what inflation really is has become my pet peeve on this forum. If it was inflation, then it would be like people used to have say 10 mil in their wallet on average and now they have 100, but the 100 mil now buys about the same amount of stuff as 10 mil used to buy because the prices have all gone up. Other than that, I agree partially with the op. Fair enough, then let EVE economical growth apply to the NPC's control over BPOs and Skills. Revamp the skill and BPO prices to at least reflect average increases in base mineral prices. The NPC corporations, if they really existed as a separate entity, would also increase their prices as more ISK became available. So, based on your comment, skills and BPOs should now cost 10 times as much now too ? Wait, wait, wait, you're basically saying that you want CCP to create inflation in the game?
Hannobaal Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.16 23:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Element 22 Originally by: LaVista Vista There is no inflation. Just economical growth. O rly? But I kid, one of the issue is the fact that there are unlimited resources, even in real world economies the resources become harder and harder to get as they are used, thus creating a "curve" of sorts against supply. You can't obviously do this in eve because the new players wouldn't have a chance... Personally I feel that FW is a step in the right direction; Once I get a new motherboard so I can play eve again I shall validate this claim (/clam) Resources aren't really unlimited in Eve either. Especially the most important one (which trumps all the others): playing time.
Mika Meroko Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.06.16 23:12:00 - [30] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 16/06/2008 23:14:44 another hardcore kiddie (yay mom I am with the leet crowd!) wanting to force his vision onto others... hate to break it to ya.. back in 2003, one of my account's char is only 5k sp when he started. and we dont have alot of anything back then.. (remember the days when you DONT get 800k sp?) we also had mines though...space mines... those were sweet... and so is cruise kessies. but yeah, back to the topic at hand... I like to think that eve 2003 is like earth in pre-industrial revolution.. where only the rich gets educated, and people dont own alot of stuff.... is the situation you described... but Eve now... is like ... well, 2008 =P ... overall, everybody have alot of education. food/necessities arent that expensive.. everybody can afford to buy alot more personal effects. is a nice place to be... (unless you are somewhere in Africa...) personaly, I dont see a problem with increase earning power... since theres no real inflation in eve.. is controled by mineral prices (and npc orders)...yes, people can buy more...but is that a bad thing? the only thing that are really out there are officer stuff... but lets face it.. those are luxuries I mean... not everybody can own a Ferrari but almost everybody (in NA) can own a car...(T1 ships?) I see no problem with economic growth and increased buying power..... I mean... the T1 (basics) are the same (almost) prices they were.... T2 is dropping due to competition/overall tech advance (invention) so... why is this a problem again Jaabaa? btw, Low sec and 0.0 ARE more profitable than highsec.. you just need to know what you are doing AND have the muscle to back it up (key being... most newbies dont have that muscle/friends to unseat established entities) but yeah... it is more profitable in low and 0.0... and the easier cash flow helps pvp.... people are less adversive to losing ships when they can get it back easier.... The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... think about it for a sec.. do you honestly trust anyone in eve that you cant physically molest in real life? the answer is no.... and if you answer yes, I would like to borrow 500 million please. I will pay it back (realisticly) in a year at 550 million. it is the lack of trust and accountably that makes alot of people solo players in eve... think about that... edit: hence why investments in time and anything expensive is ... rare.. I mean, I give newbies free frigs and T1 fit for it all the time... but you wouldnt be able to get me to gang ya/join your corp where you can kill me in my CNR
Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.16 23:16:00 - [31] Regarding ISK issues, the reason why everyone and their mother have seemingly infinite cash compared to the days of yore is the same thing that plagues every MMO once they've been around long enough: Infinite resources to exploit. Whether it's bashing animals in WoW or battling pirates or mining in EVE, there's basically an endless influx of money into the system.. One of my friends play WoW and has been doing so since it was fairly new. Back then it was hard to come by tons of gold but today everyone have epic mounts and 5 level 70 or 80, or how much is the uper limit, chracters that can smack around a couple of high level monsters and then send what amounts to a small fortune to their alts or friend's low level character. In EVE, these tendencies can sometimes reach silly proportions because we're 200-something thousand people on one giant server, playing the same game. Imagine all the new money that enter the economy in form of minerals from miners in one day.. The only real reason why it isn't totally broken is because your ship and (typically more expensive) fitting goes "poof" when shot. Of course, it doesn't help one bit that I can pay 30 odd million to insure my Raven and then get a payout of over 100 million ISK when it blows up.. While not as bad as some ships, it still means your net expense only amounts to something like 10-15 million for the ship itself, since a Raven goes for about 86 million on the market. I'm certain there are also other reasons as to why but this is one that applies to just about every MMO out there, since none of them do much to take money out of the system compared to the amount that enters. EVE tries but the more players you have and the longer this goes on, the more the average EVE player will have in his/her wallet. Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Mika Meroko The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... i wholeheartedly agree with this statement. its the #1 reason why the assets i earn will never be in a position to be lost by someone i do not know, directly or indirectly, unless it was a shared effort to gain those resources. and even then, i'd be hard pressed to be in a position with no control. been there, done that. had a great time but i don't even have a t-shirt to show for it. You're doing it wrong.
Qaedienne	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:17:00 - [33] New players need more cash than you guys did back in the day. Today's new players must compete with players who have 100 million skillpoints and live in player-run empires.
Retim Tar	Posted - 2008.06.17 00:30:00 - [34] You worry about no risk in empire? You better worry about no risk in 0.0.... 0.0 space can offer you way too much money and most of it is 99% secure by the alliance that hold (except if its at war, which is not that common for a single alliance to go at war every month...) so rest of time ppl in 0.0 accumulate big money. In my alliance i can mine zydrine in 0.0 much safer than mine in low sec, and with those suicide hulk killing gangs (lol) even safer than high sec... One guy said that a hac would be valuable and you couldn't just replace it with a couple of missions... Well what about the titan. I see them popping like mushrooms. They supposed to be very expensive, they supposed to be hard to build, they supposed to be valuable, they suppsoed to be very hard to replace if you lose it. Doesn't look like it imho. Big alliances in 0.0 have money beyond your wildest dreams, believe me... The poor guy in empire that does misions is nothing.
syphurous Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:31:00 - [35] I would just like to say that NPC corps have heaps of player interaction. 30 Man mining fleets ( eat your hearts out Player Mining Corps ), small gang roaming fleets in low and 0.0. You can tell us from the macro's, we dont have random names. :P Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
Jawas	Posted - 2008.06.17 02:39:00 - [36] Edited by: Jawas on 17/06/2008 02:47:15 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It looks like that isn't a requirement any more thanks to the highly rewarding missions in empire space. Highly rewarding? Connections 3, Negotiation 4. Agent quality roughly 10. lvl3 average 1 million bounties + 1 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 2.5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 30 minutes average time taken (solo). lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). Even mining the most common ore pays better than that. Mining 3 cans of veldspar per hour for 1 hour pays around 7.5 million. One of the main reasons players have more isk is because there is much more on the market. The greed of some manufacturers who double the price in some regions as compared to others means there's an advantage for astute traders to get very rich very quick. It takes a huge investment and a long trip but it can be very lucrative. Edit: made it easier to read -- Sig design in training: Remaining time 30 years 20 days, 4 hours, 10 mins, 15 seconds.
command sheep	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Jawas lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). u must have the worst lvl4 agent in eve. i make around 10-20million isk an hour (depends on how lucky i am in getting the very good paying missions from my agent). this is with just a few weeks of skill training on this char and a standard t2-fitted raven. after CCP reduced the difficulty of missions (yes, i already ran missions in the "good old" times, when they were really hard, of course with another char ;) ) there is nearly none risk left in lvl4 missions. i mean if u dont try to trigger any trigger in the mission u can find there is mostly not enough dps in most mission to even break the natural shield recharge of a raven ...
Valkazm Russian Specnaz Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:37:00 - [38] I dont see the problem i myself have never passed beyond level 3 missions and have only minned in low sec and 0.0 .. i admire the empire dwellers they have the utmost patience ever i just cant live like that missions where boring high sec minning was to much of a bore .. It takes alot of patience and dedication to make it work in empire my first million in empire came from alot of hauling and trading alot of jumps when we couldnt even warp to zero .. Honestly i havent seen the big perks in empire .. ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk
Faife Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:43:00 - [39] so most of eve lives in high sec, so what?
Toria Nynys	Posted - 2008.06.17 03:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Faife so most of eve lives in high sec, so what? Translation: op can't find enough defenseless n00bs ratting in frigates to OMGWTFPWN in the face. It's hard work being 1337 these days.
Pilot Abilene Serpentine Dream Theory	Posted - 2008.06.17 04:02:00 - [41] lol EVE Elitism at it's finest...god forbid newbies having some isk because the game has progressed and changed to cater for the needs of the elitist players over the years. New comers are just getting their chunk of it on the side too, get over it.
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co.	Posted - 2008.06.17 05:48:00 - [42] I agree (sort of)! Make level 3, 4 and 5 missions harder (and maybe level 2s a little bit), but then increase the rewards! That'd be cool. But anyway, back to the point... I'm awesome :D
Thirzarr	Posted - 2008.06.17 05:51:00 - [43] People need to go 0.0 or lowsec, they say. People need reasons to leave empire, they say. And shure as hell PvEers should do Missions, Ratting and Mining in lowsec, they say. The answer is so simple: "Where? Why?" Really - I like eve, even as it is now. :) THINGS CHANGE!
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.17 06:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime I CCP, please up the ante. Please change the missions so that level 1-2 (maybe 3) = solo, level 3-4 = gang/corp missions and 4-5 = corp/alliance missions. Yes, why the triple BS spawn can be done solo? they should require at least a small gang, faction should require a large gang or some capital ship. Officer? at least a large gang with capitals, spider tanking and several wings (they drop several billions in modules!). No? You disagree? "But it is 0.0 ecc." Most 0.0 farming is aas risky as level 4 mission, so if you wnat to reduce the PvE rewards, it should be done across the board.
F'nog Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 06:42:00 - [45] On the one hand, I don't have a problem with players hoarding ISK through missions, ratting, invention, PvP, whatever. On the other hand, I feel that Eve has become too easy with the ways that even new players can make a ton of money. I don't want new players stuck in the poor box like I was for my first several weeks/months. But I don't like that they can make so many millions or even billions so quickly. This isn't a dig against new players. If you do a lot of research and make a couple billion through shrewd market manipulations, scamming, etc. I don't have much of a problem, as this is rare. But the ease with which players only a few weeks old can afford CNRs through mindlessly grinding missions makes the game less satisfactory. When I started, you really had to work for a million ISK. It could takes days to make it if you didn't spend anything on new skills or mods. I don't want it to be that bad, but I also don't want it to be so easy that in a 2 weeks players can afford a BS plus fittings and insurance, plus the raw ISK to buy a new one or two and a set of +3/4 implants. Taking one's time really pays off in this game. It makes it far more enjoyable. But the ease with which new players can amass wealth is really shocking nowadays. It tends to lead players to going for the big stuff and missing everything before it, which can mean a lot of the fun. I think powering through the game leads to less retention, as it's too easy to get all the cool stuff and move on. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.17 07:56:00 - [46] Originally by: F'nog When I started, you really had to work for a million ISK. Wen I started, we had 100K Sp against the current 800K, a Dominix did cost around 100 million against the current 55 millions, a Mega 120-130 against the current 90 or so. And the same cost difference was present for all the ships. So a new player losing a insured frigate wasn't losing only the 30% cost of the platinum insurance + modules, he was losing 50% of the ship market price, plus the 30% of the database worth for the insurance, plus the modules. The net effect of this changes is that a new player losing his ship in a mission (and when yous tart you lose them often) isn't pushed back to half of what he had before but instead he lose a very small sum. That and the higher skills allow him to get faster to the bigger ships (and again he lose very little when he lose a BC or BS). So he would be getting more isk (proportionally) in the first part of his EVE career than it was possible 2 years ago (or 5 years ago). Salvaging add to that as, while it is a time sink for more experienced players, it is a good time/isk ratio for players doing lvel 1 and 2 missions. Summing up the above, player today are getting more isk at the low SP levels than before, while (at least in PvE) they don't get more isk than 2 years ago at the higher SP levels (they get less probably, plenty of farmable missions have been removed/changed and LP are worth a lot less).
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 08:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Mika Meroko btw, Low sec and 0.0 ARE more profitable than highsec.. you just need to know what you are doing AND have the muscle to back it up (key being... most newbies dont have that muscle/friends to unseat established entities) […] The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... This knocked the head of that proverbial nail clean off! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime 1. Where is the risk vs. reward doing level 4 missions in empire ? Is there any risk at all ? Ehmmm… you could get your salvage stolen… and that's about it. Not really a "risk" as the word is commonly understood. Originally by: Empyre i've been playing for years myself and it took a long time and a lot of skill training to be able to solo L4s. Originally by: Kelli Flay Another thing: as someone who used to be a mission runner, I can vouch that it is hard work. You really have to be highly skilled to get to the point where you can solo most lvl 4's easily. Whaa? Highly skilled? I have yet to come across a single lvl4 I can't solo with ease, and I'm 6 months old – 3 of which were spent training for ye olde Hulk… I wouldn't exactly call it myself "highly skilled" when it comes to combat. Sure, it may be "hard work" in the sense that it's a bit of a grind, but it's not particularly difficult.. Originally by: Jawas Highly rewarding? Connections 3, Negotiation 4. Agent quality roughly 10. lvl3 average 1 million bounties + 1 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 2.5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 30 minutes average time taken (solo). lvl4 averages 2 million + 2 million reward (including bonus). Highest paid mission 5 million total (rewards, bounties and bonus). 1 hour average time taken (solo). Wth are you doing in your missions?! My lvl3s averaged 15-20min (including salvaging on the go) and payed out 5mil minimum. My lvl4s take maybe an hour on average (in a BC, 'cause BS:es are for sissies ) and pay out 10mil/h, and that's with f-a social skills and a -3qual agent.
Pritkij Kaban Unbound Universe	Posted - 2008.06.17 09:19:00 - [48] I see OPs concern. Yet I dont understand it. 1. Almost every MMO passes eliticism state, but for the love of God, it is utterly stupid resorting to pink memories for non-contructive purpose. "OMG in 5.5 CS beta uns hav had different penetration and MAC-10 could rule OMG now they made it @@@@!!!11" 2. "having great time doing missions"...my ass Ppl having fun exclusively from missions just dont have good offline games on their pcs, but then there are no such ppl. Every player finds balance between his EVE ambitions, RL timing, efforts and rewards (I hate "risk vs reward" @@@@ btw, just because EVE is last game where risk is rewarded, be it blob warfare, small gang pvp or marketing. Well-prepared swift action rules, spotaneous move perishes). Some want to put a lot of time into warfare, some are not. Some can pay attention for several hours while on demanding fleet operation, some require semi-afk regime for countless reasons. Whining about players who plays another way is simply ignorant and bring nothing. ------------ Think, it surprises sometime
WA Dragon 108 Field Squadron RM RE	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:34:00 - [49] FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it is just not worth the time, unless you use a small fleet of macro miners that is, and have a POS with a bunch of labs that will soon get popped by some dumb ass pirate corp who will war deck you just to pop your pos. I am sorry to say this but IMHO EVE seems to be on a downward spiral with no escape. The market got flooded with minerals from the new 0.0 drone space and the countless macro miners pushing the price of minerals down to where trit is now worth more than pyrite. CCP congratz you ruined eve by making the new drone 0.0 space and not banning the macros at the start, its no good closing the barn door now the horse has long since bolted. The end is comming just how close it is is up to CCP. Can they turn this around who knows. To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question?
Yin Sue	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:43:00 - [50] Your thread raises several issues, I'm just going to answer to one of its aspects talking from personal experience. All the people living in Empire don't stay there just because it's safer/profitable. Some of them just don't have a choice, they're not welcome elsewhere. Try joining a 0.0 corp if you have less than 10m SPs, no one will want you. If a corp does accept you it's probably a not so great corp, meaning life in 0.0 will be even harder than it is for the majority of people living in 0.0 So that person might end up going back to high sec. I have 5m SPs, I'd love to live in null sec, I don't mind about safety, I don't mind about losing assets, it's all virtual to me, I like the thrill of living in danger, but on my own it's just suicide, and finding a decent corp when you have little experience is sometimes even harder than surviving solo.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:01:00 - [51] Originally by: WA Dragon lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it Weeeell… tbh, the production side is far more ruined by players who sell their products at a loss just because they believe that ore and salvage is free if you collect it yourself.
Sebastian Valance Chaotic Navigation	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:36:00 - [52] Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:42:21 Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:40:50 Edited by: Sebastian Valance on 17/06/2008 12:39:14 Originally by: Mika Meroko Edited by: Mika Meroko on 16/06/2008 23:14:44 The problem with lack of interaction community is there.. but the cause is NOT what you think.... is not profit... but rather.. drumrolls TRUST... think about it for a sec.. do you honestly trust anyone in eve that you cant physically molest in real life? the answer is no.... and if you answer yes, I would like to borrow 500 million please. I will pay it back (realisticly) in a year at 550 million. it is the lack of trust and accountably that makes alot of people solo players in eve... think about that... QFT Trust is the most precious commodity in EVE, especially for 0.0 Corps/Alliances. I am one of those Players that no 0.0 Corp or Alliance would want to trust. Why? In my case two very important reasons... Firstly I am a casual player that only keeps my sub(s) active for a month or two at a time then leaves EVE for 4 to 6 months, then resubs again. What 0.0 Corp or Alliance wants a member they can't trust to stick around? What Corp CEO wants to keep giving and taking away permissions, roles, and access to a Player that's on again/off again? Secondly because others Players don't want to get jacked around and **'d over by somebody like me (case in point my old Main was Gardavil [TOOC] and the old members of that corp can tell you horror stories about how I was a massive pain in the arse to them). I understand this simple truth about myself and choose to keep my characters in a one man Corp and play EVE in a way that I enjoy without being the cause of some of the drama(politics) that really ** off alot of players in 0.0. I know I am not alone in this...There are alot of players that wouldn't be good members in a 0.0 Corp thus explaining at least some of the many solo players in EVE. If you can't trust a player, then why do you want them in your 0.0 Corp/Alliance? Let them do what they want in Empire, it's better for everyone in the long run. Now as to ISK being easier to get now then years ago...agreed it is; but there is also alot more to do in EVE then there was when I started playing in 2004, there is alot more Players....it's just economic growth as I see it. edit=spelling, need more coffee ______________________________________________ Sabastian Valance
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 13:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Even according to CCP's internal studies 76% of the EVE population lives in high sec You should reread those numbers. According to the last econ report over half of the population went to low sec in the last 2 weeks. People who enter low sec are the majority. People who stay in high sec are the minority.
Traidor Disloyal NightCrew	Posted - 2008.06.17 14:41:00 - [54] Here's my opinion: I played this game back in 2003 when it first came out. I quit 3 months later. I came back in August of 2006. I've stayed. It was a pain in the ass to get a crusier back then. It aint such a pain now. In fact I seem to have more fun now then I did then. I also don't do blobs out in 0.0. I do miss one aspect of 2003. I could shoot someone in High Sec without getting Concorded. --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:10:00 - [55] Edited by: Empyre on 17/06/2008 16:10:30 Originally by: WA Dragon FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it is just not worth the time, unless you use a small fleet of macro miners that is, and have a POS with a bunch of labs that will soon get popped by some dumb ass pirate corp who will war deck you just to pop your pos. I am sorry to say this but IMHO EVE seems to be on a downward spiral with no escape. The market got flooded with minerals from the new 0.0 drone space and the countless macro miners pushing the price of minerals down to where trit is now worth more than pyrite. CCP congratz you ruined eve by making the new drone 0.0 space and not banning the macros at the start, its no good closing the barn door now the horse has long since bolted. The end is comming just how close it is is up to CCP. Can they turn this around who knows. FACT! people make up facts and statistics all the time! case in point. ratting in a moderately rated 0.0 system, i can casually rat and make around 30m an hour, more if i dedicate the time but i'm shooting for average here. and thats not including any faction loot or implants that drop, nor the hauler spawns that can drop some serious minerals. the best mission, in terms of isk gained, i can run is guristas extravaganza, which pulls in around 20-25m for the whole thing. this is including bounties, rewards and selling refined loot and salvage. the mission takes around 2.5 hours solo unless i rush it and skip the loot/salvage. edit: and try to get faction loot from a mission. won't happen. you're full of crap. You're doing it wrong.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:34:00 - [56] I am extremely pleased that the 0.5+ carebears can make a nice profit and enjoy themselves in 0.5+ space. Well done CCP!! The ability of Eve to handle a variety of playing styles is one of its strength. Heck, if anything I'd like to see 0.5+ even MORE carebear friendly. ("Casual" ganking should be limited to low sec and 0.0. Ganking should be possible in high sec, but not casual ganking). And I'm not joking. Play nice while you butcher each other.
gpfwestie Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:35:00 - [57] Originally by: WA Dragon FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. What a complete load of utter rubbish. As someones already said, the best L4 mission (Angel Extravaganza) nets you 30 odd mill and takes 2.5 hours where you have to be online all that time. The lowliest of lowly 0.0 dweller can rat the belts and earn an easy 30 Mill an hour, and can do it casually (rat a belt, go eat lunch, rat another belt) Any Miner in 0.0 can make similar amounts, if you can get the stuff back to empire to sell Any corp with real 0.0 presence will have moon mining operations going, which brings in billions a month. Any Alliance will have refine taxes on outposts which will again net them billions a month.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:52:00 - [58] 30mil an hour in 0.0 is actually quite a lot. 18-20 is more likely as an upper limit on bounties in all but some of the very best systems. Lvl 4 missions pay well, it is more convenient to sell loot/salvage/minerals, and have the rewards of the LP store. All in all, they are both pretty much on a par with each other ... except one is much, much, much safer. Many of the balance problems in Eve stem from the over-availability of easily earned ISK. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Pritkij Kaban Unbound Universe	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:23:00 - [59] War Fairy, just because safety through blobs works equally well in 0.0, low and hi sec Honestly, I see no point in whole discussion, except highlighting ability of EVE game design to handle variety of playing styles with moderate success (ok, I dont mean lag in fleet combat when split-second rumble turns into slideshow). ------------ Think, it surprises sometime
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:23:00 - [60] Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 17/06/2008 17:23:58 Originally by: Zinras Imagine all the new money that enter the economy in form of minerals from miners in one day. No money enters the game as minerals. The only sources of ISK (that I can think of atm) are from NPC bounties, selling NPC dog tags, missions and insurance payouts. The only ISK sinks are things like purchasing skills, purchasing BPOs, CSPA charges, clone upgrades, clone transfers, buying items for LP + ISK from agents, basically anything that causes your ISK to end up in an NPC wallet. I don't want to go back to the 2003 economy but I am worried about the future of the EVE economy. --
Pritkij Kaban Unbound Universe	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:41:00 - [61] Jaabaa Prime, hmm, and what's the problem? Cash accumulation that may lead to market shakes and inflated prices? But that will just lead to glorious early day of EVE when mining was mandatory. Oh, and for chrissake, try missioning regularly with noob character to get, say, infamous 3 purger rigs t2 fit turtle drake. I'll be rocked to my core if you could do it and never ever say "OMG I'm bored with that sh_t :(" ------------ Think, it surprises sometime
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Avon 30mil an hour in 0.0 is actually quite a lot. 18-20 is more likely as an upper limit on bounties in all but some of the very best systems. Lvl 4 missions pay well, it is more convenient to sell loot/salvage/minerals, and have the rewards of the LP store. All in all, they are both pretty much on a par with each other ... except one is much, much, much safer. Many of the balance problems in Eve stem from the over-availability of easily earned ISK. you're on *****. i could clear 30m/hr without much effort at all in the back yard of C3-. even in providence i remember clearing 20m ratting. and the LP offers are cool and all, but since the integration of the LP store, they are more like a free sunday at mcdonalds than the boost in isk they used to be. and to re-iterate, its BORING AS HELL. i've even tried running one and two other accounts at the same time to see if it makes a difference and it really doesn't. the amount of time saved is absolutely minimal, which surprised me a lot. if they nerf missions, especially L4s, much more then i expect not too many people will be doing them. i will agree that theres a lot of people doing them. the systems that house the best quality L4 agents have seen a significant population growth over the last 4-6 months. and don't forget, theres a good number of folks that run multiple accounts who mission alongside playing their characters in 0.0 theaters. your alliance should know this at least as much as anyone else. You're doing it wrong.
Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:40:00 - [63] Edited by: Zinras on 17/06/2008 18:44:03 Edited by: Zinras on 17/06/2008 18:41:38 Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Edited by: Jaabaa Prime on 17/06/2008 17:23:58 Originally by: Zinras Imagine all the new money that enter the economy in form of minerals from miners in one day. No money enters the game as minerals. The only sources of ISK (that I can think of atm) are from NPC bounties, selling NPC dog tags, missions and insurance payouts. The only ISK sinks are things like purchasing skills, purchasing BPOs, CSPA charges, clone upgrades, clone transfers, buying items for LP + ISK from agents, basically anything that causes your ISK to end up in an NPC wallet. I don't want to go back to the 2003 economy but I am worried about the future of the EVE economy. Being a dirty non-english speaking person means I might have said it wrong, as well as I also forgot to add mission ***s to the list. I really should have put it as straight resources and the money was meant to cover the mentioned mission*s I forgot in my post. Either way, it affects the economy in the same way: Everyone gets relatively more ISK. Even though the minerals might not actually generate any ISK by itself, it does however push down prices on anything that requires minerals to produce, due to an infinite supply over time ('roids always respawn and so do NPCs). This increase in supply wouldn't be much of an issue if EVE did like most MMOs do, which is hit an upper limit on users after X months and keep it roughly in that area. However, since EVE gets more and more players, both through actual new users and alt accounts, it means that more people will be mining/missionrunning/whatever activity that isn't an ISK sink. The game doesn't care if it's one person with 5 accounts or 5 different people.. All that matters is more stuff is entering the economy and not enough is taken out. Basically, it's EVE's own success that makes it incredibly easy to make money compared to earlier days. And one of the easiest fixes for that would be removing/limiting insurance or hardcap mineral prices at a certain minimum. Whether these meassures would be something beneficial to the players or not is another issue entirely, as it would somewhat remove the freedom of the market. Also, with regards to the time/ISK ratio discussion, where some people say it's free and some say it's not, it's kind of pointless because you can mine while being AFK. Basically, this means a person might not lose any time since they might not actually be playing and simply have it in the background. The only time wasted out of their daily routine is the time it takes to start EVE and change 'riods once in a while. Much like if you had a friend doing the mining for you.. Yes, HE wastes his time but you don't, since you wouldn't be playing anyway, thus making it a non-issue for you if you sell your newly made BS or the minerals themselves cheaper. However, if you actually ARE playing and sitting at your keyboard watching the 'roids as your primary concern, then yes, it's not free due to lost time. It all depends on if you assume the player is mining as a primary or secondary concern at the time it takes place. EDIT: Needs better grammar Originally by:** CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:42:00 - [64] Originally by: Pritkij Kaban War Fairy, just because safety through blobs works equally well in 0.0, low and hi sec Could you please complete the above sentence?
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:42:00 - [65] Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2008 18:44:59 Originally by: Empyre the best mission, in terms of isk gained, i can run is guristas extravaganza, which pulls in around 20-25m for the whole thing. this is including bounties, rewards and selling refined loot and salvage. the mission takes around 2.5 hours solo unless i rush it and skip the loot/salvage. Originally by: gpfwestie What a complete load of utter rubbish. As someones already said, the best L4 mission (Angel Extravaganza) nets you 30 odd mill and takes 2.5 hours where you have to be online all that time. Sooo… which mission is the best-paying? I propose a duel between the two of you to settle it, once and for all!! For the record, I've only done AE twice: the first time, it netted me 35mil (including everything) in 2,5h (in a BC, including salvage-as-you-go), but I blitzed it and didn't trigger all the spawns; the second time, yesterday, I did the whole thing apart from the bonus room in just over 3,5h, and it netted me 50mil for mission rewards, bounties, loot and salvage (using a dedicated salvager)… …so yes, life is reeeeeally hard for us poor newbie mission runners.
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:49:00 - [66] Originally by: Zinras Also, with regards to the time/ISK ratio discussion, where some people say it's free and some say it's not, it's kind of pointless because you can mine while being AFK. Basically, this means a person might not lose any time since they might not actually be playing and simply have it in the background. The only time wasted out of their daily routine is the time it takes to start EVE and change 'riods once in a while. Much like if you had a friend doing the mining for you.. Yes, HE wastes his time but you don't, since you wouldn't be playing anyway, thus making it a non-issue for you if you sell your newly made BS or the minerals themselves cheaper. Mined minerals are never free, even if they are acquired afk. Those minerals could be sold rather than used. The amount that they could be sold for is the "cost" of the minerals.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:50:00 - [67] Originally by: Empyre if they nerf missions, especially L4s, much more then i expect not too many people will be doing them. i will agree that theres a lot of people doing them. the systems that house the best quality L4 agents have seen a significant population growth over the last 4-6 months. and don't forget, theres a good number of folks that run multiple accounts who mission alongside playing their characters in 0.0 theaters. your alliance should know this at least as much as anyone else. That would be a good thing. Its a bit strange when you have people living in 0.0 going to empire space to earn their isk as its so easy and comparable income to ratting in 0.0.
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:58:00 - [68] Edited by: Empyre on 17/06/2008 19:00:47 Originally by: Tippia Soooà which mission is the best-paying? I propose a duel between the two of you to settle it, once and for all!! For the record, I've only done AE twice: the first time, it netted me 35mil (including everything) in 2,5h (in a BC, including salvage-as-you-go), but I blitzed it and didn't trigger all the spawns; the second time, yesterday, I did the whole thing apart from the bonus room in just over 3,5h, and it netted me 50mil for mission rewards, bounties, loot and salvage (using a dedicated salvager)à àso yes, life is reeeeeally hard for us poor newbie mission runners. i've been running missions for literally years and have NEVER had one net me 50m, not even when melted cap consoles were made of gold. i rarely (but sometimes) run AE, but it pushes my tank a lot harder and the loot/salvage doesn't seem to be as good. that and i started getting lazy and only running from caldari agents, who give GE much more than AE. GE is easier to sit in one place and tank anyway. that said, i think it varies a bit. 30m i don't think is unrealistic but i haven't been able to hit that mark since salvage came down in prices. i dare anyone to race me in isk. they can run L4s and i'll go rat in 0.0. we can compare wallets afterward. heck, when i get home tonight i'll dig through my screenshot archives. some of my ratting logs from chaining angels will make you cry. Originally by: Esmenet That would be a good thing. Its a bit strange when you have people living in 0.0 going to empire space to earn their isk as its so easy and comparable income to ratting in 0.0. i suspect there are multiple reasons. i can think of a couple. one, sometimes systems are under siege in 0.0. sometimes theres a pair of cloaking recons in the system. and sometimes you're just too drunk to keep an eye on local. sometimes you're in peak time and theres several alliance mates sharing the same systems. i'm sure theres plenty more reasons but that at least should take the strangeness out of the thought. You're doing it wrong.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:04:00 - [69] Sigh, yet another 'nerf hi sec to force people to leave' post. Why the fixation with mission runners? It's silly. Traders, invetors, manufacturers, couriers, etc, can all make TONS of money in hi sec without ever leaving it. Why aren't you complaining about them? Moreover, it's not like nerfing hi sec is going to make people go to low sec. If folks are in hi sec because they don't enjoy low sec, no changes to high sec are going to make them go to low sec. If they are in hi sec because that's where the risk vs reward ratio that they are comfortable with can be found, nerfing hi sec will just make them move to 0.0, because low sec is more risky and less rewarding than 0.0, so who would go there? All these 'we need more people in low sec' posts get silly: if you actually thought that, you'd be campaigning for an overhaul of low sec and a dramatic re-evaluation of 0.0 blob bubble POS fests to make ti more appealing. But instead it just comes across as 'nerf missions plz' whine.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:07:00 - [70] Originally by: Empyre i've been running missions for literally years and have NEVER had one net me 50m, not even when melted cap consoles were made of gold. Well, all I know is that I did one thing in EVE yesterday evening: I ran AE. I started the evening with 135mil, and ended it with 187mil… arguably, I might have gotten lucky with the trit bars, but in that case I've been lucky every time I run that mission.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:09:00 - [71] Quote: Many of the balance problems in Eve stem from the over-availability of easily earned ISK. You're in Black Nova Corp - you shamelessly exploited 10/10 plexes for ages. You're not allowed to complain about it being too easy to make money. In fact, every "It's too easy to make money" whine can really be translated as "CCP, I've made my easy mega billions, now please make it hard for everyone else to do the same thing" Fortunately CCP has an economist on hand who will no doubt alert them to the fact that a richer playerbase is better than a poorer playerbase, as they're more willing to go out and fight and risk ships in PvP. That said, I agree that vast swathes of 0.0 are terrible and need boosting. Still, you can earn a lot more in the best parts of 0.0 than you can doing missions in hi sec. Of course, missions in hi sec aren't even the best money earners in hi sec, so I don't know why people keep harping on them, other than as a blatant ploy to get CCP to force other people to play the way THEY want.
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Ulstan Why the fixation with mission runners? It's silly. Traders, invetors, manufacturers, couriers, etc, can all make TONS of money in hi sec without ever leaving it. Why aren't you complaining about them? Anything involving the market is PvP.
Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:09:00 - [73] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Zinras Also, with regards to the time/ISK ratio discussion, where some people say it's free and some say it's not, it's kind of pointless because you can mine while being AFK. Basically, this means a person might not lose any time since they might not actually be playing and simply have it in the background. The only time wasted out of their daily routine is the time it takes to start EVE and change 'riods once in a while. Much like if you had a friend doing the mining for you.. Yes, HE wastes his time but you don't, since you wouldn't be playing anyway, thus making it a non-issue for you if you sell your newly made BS or the minerals themselves cheaper. Mined minerals are never free, even if they are acquired afk. Those minerals could be sold rather than used. The amount that they could be sold for is the "cost" of the minerals. No, a cost is the value of what the producer gives up (typically money and time) in exchange for producing whatever it is they make. In EVE, with regards to mining, this cost is time. However, since you do not give anything up, because you're doing something else entirely, this means your cost in time is close to 0 (you still have to start the game and such), wheras a person mining actively loses time he/she could spend doing something else. Again, you're assuming the person is actually there and is somehow wasting resources. This is essentially like someone giving you X minerals and you sell them, only the only one that could possibly lose something is EVE itself in this scenario, should the roids not respawn. But since they do respawn, a fresh bunch of minerals have entered the economy through no cost to anyone. YOUR question goes to what is most profitable and not simply what is profitable. Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Empyre i've been running missions for literally years and have NEVER had one net me 50m, not even when melted cap consoles were made of gold. Well, all I know is that I did one thing in EVE yesterday evening: I ran AE. I started the evening with 135mil, and ended it with 187milà arguably, I might have gotten lucky with the trit bars, but in that case I've been lucky every time I run that mission. not calling you a liar, but if you don't mind i'd love it if you'd send me a screen of the wallet journal for that. only because it means i'm doing something wrong. You're doing it wrong.
Ulstan State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:14:00 - [75] Quote: Anything involving the market is PvP. Good, then I guess we can all stop worrying about mission runners, as they buy from and sell to the market to make much of their earnings. (Including doing anything useful with LP's)
MrHalls	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:20:00 - [76] stop crying! People play the way they want to play! Why should I play the way you like to play? what are you some sort of "American idol"? Too bad for you if there is not enough kills during the gate camp in 0.0 crawl back to your 0.0 sh*t hole station and stay there.
Valan The Fated Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:27:00 - [77] I kind of agree but gave up. The people you talk about are cattle if they're happy doing it let them, they buy the expensive mods others find. They pay subs and keep EVE afloat while the rest have fun. They sit in empire easy prey for the unscrupulous. They don't play long, I mean how many times can you run the same mission. The kind of person that likes that way of playing all the time is no use in an alliance or FW anyway. Just get a high sec alt blow them away and then sell the modules back. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Zinras No, a cost is the value of what the producer gives up (typically money and time) in exchange for producing whatever it is they make. I completely agree. Say the minerals required to make a given ship can be sold for 5M then the cost of making that ship is 5M. By building the ship you give up the 5M you could have made by selling the minerals. The cost of the ship is thus 5M regardless of where the minerals came from.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:42:00 - [79] Eh, mission running is the biggest ISK sink in the game, though indirectly. Where do you think all the money from LP store purchases goes? The same goes for faction tags which are the only reward from anti-empire-faction missions aside for some possible petty refineables. When it comes to ISK that is actually exchanging hands, I'd take a guess that most of it comes from 0.0 alliances. Lots of level 4s that don't even have as much bounties in total as single belt in a good 0.0 system could. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Zinras GRAZY DANES Plunder-Bears	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:19:00 - [80] Originally by: War Fairy Originally by: Zinras No, a cost is the value of what the producer gives up (typically money and time) in exchange for producing whatever it is they make. I completely agree. Say the minerals required to make a given ship can be sold for 5M then the cost of making that ship is 5M. By building the ship you give up the 5M you could have made by selling the minerals. The cost of the ship is thus 5M regardless of where the minerals came from. Try reading my post again. I also mentioned simply selling the minerals and not only producing This would make the cost close to 0. It would not be a cost to sell the minerals at a lower price, simply foolish business if you know you can get more. But yes, when production is involved, there is the cost of converting one resource to another, which I should have remembered Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Wet Ferret Eh, mission running is the biggest ISK sink in the game, though indirectly. Where do you think all the money from LP store purchases goes? The same goes for faction tags which are the only reward from anti-empire-faction missions aside for some possible petty refineables. When it comes to ISK that is actually exchanging hands, I'd take a guess that most of it comes from 0.0 alliances. Lots of level 4s that don't even have as much bounties in total as single belt in a good 0.0 system could. Mission running is one of the few sources of ISK in the game. Dumping it into LP store purchases is optional, it is an ISK sink because the ISK goes to an NPC entity, but then again, you should normally be able to sell (or even use) your purchased item for a profit. --
WA Dragon 108 Field Squadron RM RE	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:31:00 - [82] Edited by: WA Dragon on 17/06/2008 21:33:56 Originally by: Empyre Edited by: Empyre on 17/06/2008 16:10:30 Originally by: WA Dragon FACT! YOU CAN MAKE MORE ISK DOING LVL 4 MISSIONS IN SAFE SPACE THEN YOU CAN MAKE IN 0.0. lets face it mining and production is now a total waste of time and effort the proffit from spending endless hours in a belt mining then geting a BPO and reserching the bloody thing then skilling to produce the thing as cheap as possible only to make 1 or 2 mill proffit from it is just not worth the time, unless you use a small fleet of macro miners that is, and have a POS with a bunch of labs that will soon get popped by some dumb ass pirate corp who will war deck you just to pop your pos. I am sorry to say this but IMHO EVE seems to be on a downward spiral with no escape. The market got flooded with minerals from the new 0.0 drone space and the countless macro miners pushing the price of minerals down to where trit is now worth more than pyrite. CCP congratz you ruined eve by making the new drone 0.0 space and not banning the macros at the start, its no good closing the barn door now the horse has long since bolted. The end is comming just how close it is is up to CCP. Can they turn this around who knows. FACT! people make up facts and statistics all the time! case in point. ratting in a moderately rated 0.0 system, i can casually rat and make around 30m an hour, more if i dedicate the time but i'm shooting for average here. and thats not including any faction loot or implants that drop, nor the hauler spawns that can drop some serious minerals. the best mission, in terms of isk gained, i can run is guristas extravaganza, which pulls in around 20-25m for the whole thing. this is including bounties, rewards and selling refined loot and salvage. the mission takes around 2.5 hours solo unless i rush it and skip the loot/salvage. edit: and try to get faction loot from a mission. won't happen. you're full of crap. Dude if rat that long in 0.0 to get 30 mill you must be brain dead with bordome. Been there done that in a system with 13 belts and speaking from experiance seems your the one full of crap you make more doing lvl 4's in empire 20+ mill a mission. Only way you may get more isk in 0.0 is in an expolored mission or a lvl 5 mission. ITS IS A FACT try it some time or are you unable to come into empire you pirate dumb ass type To be or not to be......sorry can you repeat the question?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:36:00 - [83] I like flying HACs. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
ianf1982	Posted - 2008.06.17 22:04:00 - [84] I must have a really wierd agent because I did AE last night and it took an hour and twenty minutes, with a total payout of about 25 mil. This thread is made of fail tbh. There must be tons of casual players like my self who run missions AND like to PvP. I mostly use cruiser and BCs as my PvP ships and can generally afford to do so by running a few missions a week. Why would you want to discourage the casual player from PvPing by nerfing our income? Not all mission runners are high sec hugging carebears and those that are have their right to play how they want. Your proposed changes are just pure stupidity and would cause the game much more harm than good.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.17 22:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Empyre not calling you a liar, but if you don't mind i'd love it if you'd send me a screen of the wallet journal for that. only because it means i'm doing something wrong. Worst proof ever, but sure… Summary: Bounties – 19,595,313 ISK Rewards – 2,152,000 ISK Salvage – 24,340,327 ISK (roughly, 13M of which were trit bars) Loot – 5,291,445 ISK (again, roughly – can't quite remember where the salvage sales end) ––––––––––––––––––––– Total: 51,379,085 ISK
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2008.06.17 23:19:00 - [86] Edited by: Empyre on 17/06/2008 23:21:41 Originally by: Tippia Worst proof ever, but sureà Summary: Bounties û 19,595,313 ISK Rewards û 2,152,000 ISK Salvage û 24,340,327 ISK (roughly, 13M of which were trit bars) Loot û 5,291,445 ISK (again, roughly û can't quite remember where the salvage sales end) ûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûû Total: 51,379,085 ISK I know the 410k purchase was for more antimatter ammo (blasters go through a lot of them in very short order), and the 37k one was either for a skill book or for more drones (♥ Myrm) û don't remember any more. edit: bah! bloody linkà wow. just out of curiosity, what is the quality level of the agent? just trying to nail down why i get so much less. i don't think it could be just a different in market prices for the item sales. Originally by: WA Dragon "guristas extravaganza the mission takes around 2.5 hours solo" guy are you a nooblet or some thing 2.5 hours man what are you in a frigate with t1 small blasters lol . Dude seriously if you cant do that mission faster than that and have it all salvaged and looted then your a noob who cant kill 0.0 rats with out help. Rating that long in 0.0 to get 30 mill with your aparent gunnery or missile skills makes me think you must be brain dead with bordome. Been there done that in a system with 13 belts and speaking from experiance seems your the one full of crap you make more doing lvl 4's in empire 20+ mill a mission. Only way you may get more isk in 0.0 is in an expolored mission or a lvl 5 mission. ITS IS A FACT try it some time or are you unable to come into empire you pirate dumb ass ratting brain damaged type ok troll, reading comprehension.. reading comprehension. so FACT FACT FACT FACT FACT! (look ma, i can do it too!) You're doing it wrong.
Faife Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.06.18 01:09:00 - [87] Originally by: Empyre wow. just out of curiosity, what is the quality level of the agent? just trying to nail down why i get so much less. i don't think it could be just a different in market prices for the item sales. i get similar numbers from a l4q18 on a good day. maybe not the bounty (which looks a tad high) but i've hit trit bar sales in the 30 millions from a single AE, though it takes like a week to sell at that price.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.18 02:45:00 - [88] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2008 22:24:43 Originally by: Empyre not calling you a liar, but if you don't mind i'd love it if you'd send me a screen of the wallet journal for that. only because it means i'm doing something wrong. Worst proof ever, but sureà Summary: Bounties û 19,595,313 ISK Rewards û 2,152,000 ISK Salvage û 24,340,327 ISK (roughly, 13M of which were trit bars) Loot û 5,291,445 ISK (again, roughly û can't quite remember where the salvage sales end) ûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûûû Total: 51,379,085 ISK I know the 410k purchase was for more antimatter ammo (blasters go through a lot of them in very short order), and the 37k one was either for a skill book or for more drones (♥ Myrm) û don't remember any more. edit: bah! bloody linkà 18:33 (wallet shows 18:53 but thats with a 20 min delay) - > 22:19... only took you like 3.66 hours 51mil/3.66 = 13.9 mil/hour did guristas extra in 1h 20min (4 wallet logs) for about 20mil bounty and 3mil reward (with a paladin and apoc, god I hate guriastas), no clue what the loot was worth, just tractor beamed it in (the stuff within 40km that is) and threw it in a can to sell/reprocess later. (no bonus room) one mission (that one with the sanshas in like 6 groups with the more sansha ships appear from the shadows mission) was 8 mil bounties 2.3mil reward, all the bounties came in 1 sum 10 mil in 20mins ftw (but I did take some time to not exactly pay attention and salvage so theres a bit of a spread) angels extra 10 mil bounty (hmm seems really low) 3.5mil reward, oh and quite a bit of alloyed trit bars. took 1 hour for the mission, and a bit of time for the salvage (no bonus room) (gotten 13-19mil of trit bars from various previous runs) and at what risk? wait, there was risk involved in that? 0.0 ratting can go really either way, can get 10mil in one 20 min block, and then 5 mil the next and then an officer in the next. the loot is better. exploration, mining, moon mining as well.
Tippia School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.18 06:34:00 - [89] Originally by: Empyre wow. just out of curiosity, what is the quality level of the agent? just trying to nail down why i get so much less. i don't think it could be just a different in market prices for the item sales. It's a -3qual agent (effective qual 13), but as far as I understand it, at least cash-wise, the quality only affects the mission reward (ie those 2mil at the end – by far the smallest portion of the returns). Afaik, bounties operate on a different mechanic, and salvage… weeeell… high skill + tackle = more bars for you! Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton 18:33 (wallet shows 18:53 but thats with a 20 min delay) - > 22:19... only took you like 3.66 hours 51mil/3.66 = 13.9 mil/hour In my experience, those hard "x minute delays" in updating things like your wallet and your assets list will happen fairly instantly when you change sessions. That's why so many payouts coincide with me going back to buy something: system jump + dock at station = two session changes in rapid successsion, which tends to force an update. But yeah, 3.5:ish hours from start to finish. Quote: and at what risk? wait, there was risk involved in that? That's been my point all along: the only "risk" involved in someone coming along and stealing your salvage… and occasionally your loot, if they want to pick a fight. And that statement stands, even though I cba to train BS and do the missions in what everyone tells me is an underpowered and (comparatively) fragile ship
War Fairy	Posted - 2008.06.18 10:25:00 - [90] Originally by: Zinras Try reading my post again. My bad. You were talking time I was talking isk. We're both right.
Apocryphai Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.18 11:02:00 - [91] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It appears to me that the "n00bs" in EVE are having a great time doing missions and upgrading their ships without having to really be involved with the community, let alone form/join a corporation. Oh no, people are having fun in EVE and I can't stop them! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime so that people will see that EVE isn't a cake walk. JP Yeah! Damn CCP and they're stupid ideas to make their game fun to play! I demand that you force new players to have a really crappy time! That'll learn 'em for having the cheek to be new players in MY game, AND enjoying themselves at the same time! How dare theY!11 ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Jaabaa Dental Drilling Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.18 22:40:00 - [92] Edited by: Jaabaa on 18/06/2008 22:39:59 -- EVE Mobile Skill Planner V3 !! http://evemsp.sourceforge.net/
Jaabaa Prime Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.06.18 22:40:00 - [93] Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It appears to me that the "n00bs" in EVE are having a great time doing missions and upgrading their ships without having to really be involved with the community, let alone form/join a corporation. Oh no, people are having fun in EVE and I can't stop them! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime so that people will see that EVE isn't a cake walk. JP Yeah! Damn CCP and they're stupid ideas to make their game fun to play! I demand that you force new players to have a really crappy time! That'll learn 'em for having the cheek to be new players in MY game, AND enjoying themselves at the same time! How dare theY!11 Basically, I think you are wrong on so many points. It used to be that going to 0.0 and low security space actually improved your income. Now, a lot of the EVE community are asking themselves "Why bother ? I can earn just as much doing missions in safe empire space.". That is IMO the wrong mind set for EVE. --
Venkul Mul	Posted - 2008.06.18 23:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Basically, I think you are wrong on so many points. It used to be that going to 0.0 and low security space actually improved your income. Now, a lot of the EVE community are asking themselves "Why bother ? I can earn just as much doing missions in safe empire space.". That is IMO the wrong mind set for EVE. The point is that you have decide what is the right mindset for EVE, and is your mindset, all other players are wrong if don't conform to what you feel is right. You know what? That is the mindset of a child "The game is mine, so you should follow my rules".
Zinras Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.18 23:26:00 - [95] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It appears to me that the "n00bs" in EVE are having a great time doing missions and upgrading their ships without having to really be involved with the community, let alone form/join a corporation. Oh no, people are having fun in EVE and I can't stop them! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime so that people will see that EVE isn't a cake walk. JP Yeah! Damn CCP and they're stupid ideas to make their game fun to play! I demand that you force new players to have a really crappy time! That'll learn 'em for having the cheek to be new players in MY game, AND enjoying themselves at the same time! How dare theY!11 Basically, I think you are wrong on so many points. It used to be that going to 0.0 and low security space actually improved your income. Now, a lot of the EVE community are asking themselves "Why bother ? I can earn just as much doing missions in safe empire space.". That is IMO the wrong mind set for EVE. And thus why you're on the receiving end of plenty of sarcastic comments. You're basically saying that a very large group of the total population is playing the game in the wrong way, which does indeed roughly translate into "people are having fun in a way that does not increase the level of fun I have in the game and thus they're all wrong". So if I'm way off on that translation, please elaborate Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.06.19 01:47:00 - [96] Originally by: Zinras Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Apocryphai Originally by: Jaabaa Prime It appears to me that the "n00bs" in EVE are having a great time doing missions and upgrading their ships without having to really be involved with the community, let alone form/join a corporation. Oh no, people are having fun in EVE and I can't stop them! Originally by: Jaabaa Prime so that people will see that EVE isn't a cake walk. JP Yeah! Damn CCP and they're stupid ideas to make their game fun to play! I demand that you force new players to have a really crappy time! That'll learn 'em for having the cheek to be new players in MY game, AND enjoying themselves at the same time! How dare theY!11 Basically, I think you are wrong on so many points. It used to be that going to 0.0 and low security space actually improved your income. Now, a lot of the EVE community are asking themselves "Why bother ? I can earn just as much doing missions in safe empire space.". That is IMO the wrong mind set for EVE. And thus why you're on the receiving end of plenty of sarcastic comments. You're basically saying that a very large group of the total population is playing the game in the wrong way, which does indeed roughly translate into "people are having fun in a way that does not increase the level of fun I have in the game and thus they're all wrong". So if I'm way off on that translation, please elaborate No he is saying that the concept of risk/reward is currently broken for the average grunt.
Mr Kindjal 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment	Posted - 2008.06.19 01:56:00 - [97] Love these threads. How about we remove all moons, all t2 ships, all t2 modules, pos and outposts. Then remove all agents. Remove insurance, remove local too. Remove warp to zero. Remove the pulse nerf. What if your mom says hi?
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.06.19 01:58:00 - [98] Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 19/06/2008 01:59:03 Originally by: Esmenet No he is saying that the concept of risk/reward is currently broken for the average grunt. It's because it has turned into boredom/reward. Now (boredom+risk)/reward would drive away PVEers. Nothing can be done without completely reworking the way missions work (i.e. the concept of PVE fitting must die). _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.06.19 02:17:00 - [99] I'm getting bored of hisec mission running. I'll be starting PvP just as soon as I can afford a jump clone. So don't worry, not everyone sees a life farming ISK as the be all and end-all of EVE.
Harry Sachs	Posted - 2008.06.19 02:38:00 - [100] Did you see the post about making 10-40bil per week doing 0.0 plexes? Is that high enough for you? Remember back when plexes were broken and every 10/10 plex would make a billion or more per run? EVE isn't about solo play, so surely you must count dysp moons which are deep 0.0 only. Apparently there are also some 3bil ISK NPC trade routes...BoB used to run them when their empire was larger.... The list goes on. Risk vs. Reward is only 'messed up' when it comes to the different ores...but that seems unavoidable.

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