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Illwill Bill SKF Deep Space Development AAA Citizens	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:19:00 - [91] Originally by: Havohej My corpmate has a vigil fit that goes over 4.5k, no rigs Fitting, please! ____________________ Honk if you think that I'm a n00b Lance fighter > Honk.
Lilith Velkor Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:24:00 - [92] Originally by: Squatdog But wait....speed also mitigates drones and any guns other than T2 mediums loaded with Barrage. What a coincidence! Quite wrong. First off you need more speed to be safe from drones than you need to be safe from missiles. Then Turret tracking depends on transversal speed and target distance, speed doesnt necessarily help there, in quite a few scenarios your running mwd makes you easier to hit. Hint: railsguns hit nanos where you have no chance to get them with ACs.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:25:00 - [93] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Havohej My corpmate has a vigil fit that goes over 4.5k, no rigs Fitting, please! This is the original post, from my corp forum. It was posted april 10'th of this year, so the pilot now has quite a bit more SP. I'd get yelled at for sharing this off the corp forum, except I'm the CEO so... meh. For the sake of people not whining about nano's as much: Originally by: A DFIAS Pilot Heres the deal... I'm tired of loosing good 'canes to bad nanos. I'm tired of watching 20 ships try to lock down one vagabond unsuccessfully. But there are too many skills on my plate for me to drop everything to pick up HACs. Not to mention every time I get over 40 million my ratter gets blown up. So what I'm looking for is a very cheap (available in bulk) frigate that can go faster than hell and can maybe... just maybe web the hell out of a vagabond. Here's what I've come up with.... Vigil Highs: 2x 150mm light autocannon I, 1x small nosferatu I Mids: 1x Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters, 2x Stasis Webifier I (or 1 and a scram) Lows: 3x Overdrive Injector System I Top speed of this nearly all meta level 1 ship (with my current skills): 4279 m/s Cap: 3 minute duration with everything glowing... stable with one webber off. Total price: WAY under 1 million isk. Skills needed: Very few, more helps but it's doable for almost anyone. I'm planning on collecting "rat droppings" of all of the above bits of pretty much any meta level and having several of these things fitted and ready to send one after the other at nanos. The question is does anyone with some pvp experience think this thing has a prayer. I know it'll probably get popped pretty easily 1v1 but I'm just looking to hold the vaga long enough for the rest of the fleet to lock him down. Also if it does work out and someone else can fly them I'd be happy to share during an defense op. A pair of these with one webber and one scram could be very cheap 'ceptors. DFIAS Recruitment: OPEN
My Julutschka Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:28:00 - [94] the whole discussion is common in EVERY MMO out there. On the one hand you have the guys that play the broken class/fly the broken ship/have the broken item...on the other hand you have "the others" Its in EVE where the nanoers tell everybody "LULZ there are so much counter you n00bs"..yep counters to get you away from us, but NOT to kill you Same es in WoW when they cried "PALA IS IMBA" and the Palas replied "LUL n00bs..only takes 3 other chars to kill us..we are fine" Think about it !
Lilith Velkor Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:32:00 - [95] Originally by: My Julutschka WoW Never played that game, but what about a healer and a warrior?
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:32:00 - [96] Originally by: My Julutschka the whole discussion is common in EVERY MMO out there. On the one hand you have the guys that play the broken class/fly the broken ship/have the broken item...on the other hand you have "the others" Its in EVE where the nanoers tell everybody "LULZ there are so much counter you n00bs"..yep counters to get you away from us, but NOT to kill you Same es in WoW when they cried "PALA IS IMBA" and the Palas replied "LUL n00bs..only takes 3 other chars to kill us..we are fine" Think about it ! The difference between "paladins being broken because you can't solo kill them" and "nanogangs are broken because you can't solo kill them (you can, btw)" is that WoW classes are balanced with solo play in mind as well as group play. EVE-Online is balanced with cooperative play in mind (that means you play WITH people, not just by yourself). DFIAS Recruitment: OPEN
HakanSherif Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:33:00 - [97] its same in every game, noobs will whine for things that they cant kill and speed in this game is the only actual feature that highly depends on player skill. Speed however is how it works in real life combat aswell. Guess russians and chinese should whine to Americans to change their doctrine.:P Est Sularus oth Mithas
Lilith Velkor Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:39:00 - [98] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:40:15 Originally by: Kelli Flay I never said MWD = Nano and I didn't see anyone else in this thread claim that either. Ask the Caldari Miltia because they are the group who has the biggest issue with them. I just happen to agree that it is lame and quite unbalanced. Maybe its because the caldari militia has by far the biggest amount of noobs (read: learning resistant people)?
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:40:00 - [99] Nanoships just need one counter to everything; speed. if they can't kill it they get away. Non nanoships need neuts, huginns and whatnot to NOT die to nano's, killing them is something completely different. Again, if it weren't overpowered you wouldn't put cash and effort into it, don't try to justify it.
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:41:00 - [100] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Quite wrong. First off you need more speed to be safe from drones than you need to be safe from missiles. Then Turret tracking depends on transversal speed and target distance, speed doesnt necessarily help there, in quite a few scenarios your running mwd makes you easier to hit. Hint: railsguns hit nanos where you have no chance to get them with ACs. You need 4,600ms to be completely immune to missiles other than Precision Lights and at around that same speed drone damage is negligible. Medium Railguns track horribly at 2okm against a target going that fast and would be lucky to do 20% of their damage against anything cruiser sized.
Noelle Fay State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:42:00 - [101] Edited by: Noelle Fay on 22/06/2008 11:43:17 Originally by: Sekse Seske when somthing goes wrong I escape with ease. And that is exactly the problem. PvP used to involve risk. A huge risk, especially in expensive t2 ships. This has stopped and shrunk down to a minimal risk with all the nanofags being able to pick their fights and end them when THEY like it. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:46:00 - [102] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: Havohej My corpmate has a vigil fit that goes over 4.5k, no rigs Fitting, please! T2 1MN MWD T2 Overdrive x2, T2 Nano With all skills at level 5, EFT gives 4935m/s. With Acceleration Control IV, a little over 4.5Km/s sounds about right. (Gang bonuses could easily take that over 6Km/s) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lilith Velkor Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:46:00 - [103] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:52:40 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:47:10 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:46:46 Originally by: Squatdog You need 4,600ms to be completely immune to missiles other than Precision Lights and at around that same speed drone damage is negligible. I'm pretty sure the magic speed for me to be safe from drones is around 5500m/s. Originally by: Squatdog Medium Railguns track horribly at 2okm against a target going that fast and would be lucky to do 20% of their damage against anything cruiser sized. The target is most likely moon-sized when going that fast and its cruiser class. As stated earlier, railguns dont like transversal, so get in a decent shooting position. So in case of the caldari militia blobs, get a few railgunners, spread out (deny them to control transversal) and kill them before they warp out.
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:48:00 - [104] Originally by: My Julutschka the whole discussion is common in EVERY MMO out there. On the one hand you have the guys that play the broken class/fly the broken ship/have the broken item...on the other hand you have "the others" Its in EVE where the nanoers tell everybody "LULZ there are so much counter you n00bs"..yep counters to get you away from us, but NOT to kill you Same es in WoW when they cried "PALA IS IMBA" and the Palas replied "LUL n00bs..only takes 3 other chars to kill us..we are fine" Think about it ! Worst analogy ever. It would only be true if it were Huntards running at 500% speed and being completely impossible to catch without a specialist counterbuild. The closest parallel in WoW would be the twinking homos howling and squealing on the forums that putting an elite lvl70 armour patch on a lvl19 isn't imbalanced and it's other players fault for not spending hundreds (sometimes thousands) of gold on their lvl19s.
Squatdog Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.06.22 11:56:00 - [105] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:52:40 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:47:10 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:46:46 I'm pretty sure the magic speed for me to be safe from drones is around 5500m/s. You'll mitigate the vast majority of damage, even against Warrior IIs Originally by: Lilith Velkor The target is most likely moon-sized when going that fast and its cruiser class. As stated earlier, railguns dont like transversal, so get in a decent shooting position. It's kind of hard to do when nanos dictate range and are orbiting at 20km. They'll still warp out at the first sign of trouble.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:00:00 - [106] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: baltec1 All fine and good so long as they dont web back... and any nano gang that does not have webs deserve to be shot down. so yea, insta pops. The only effective way to kill a good nano gang is to bring another nano gang. Read the part where I said "as long as they don't have a minnie recon, which is more often than you'd expect". So, we're assuming it's the 2/3 of the time when the attacking nanogang has no rapier/huginn... are you sugesting, then, that nano pilgrim, nano curse, sacrilege, zealot, ishtar, vagabond - you're suggesting that these ships always fit webs? These large, heavy nanocruisers that have to orbit at substantial distance, well beyond web range, in order to maintain their 'overpowered' speeds? I've lost ships to nanos and not been webbed... we've killed nanos who didn't have webs fitted... not sure what you're on about with this post tbh. I have had plenty of nano ships web and scramble my AS. Some dont fit them but groups will have at least one webber with them for catching intis and other nano ships. Sending frigate sized ships after a good nano gang is only going to feed them more kills. The only way to kill a good nano gang is to send in your own or catch them with a much larger fleet as they are jumping through a gate.
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:03:00 - [107] Originally by: Squatdog Originally by: Lilith Velkor Quite wrong. First off you need more speed to be safe from drones than you need to be safe from missiles. Then Turret tracking depends on transversal speed and target distance, speed doesnt necessarily help there, in quite a few scenarios your running mwd makes you easier to hit. Hint: railsguns hit nanos where you have no chance to get them with ACs. You need 4,600ms to be completely immune to missiles other than Precision Lights and at around that same speed drone damage is negligible Fact: Only vagabond goes at that speed Fact: Nanos do not perma mwd Fact: You are an idiot who needs to stop posting ______________________________________________ Euriti - I'll continue my nerd forum rage!
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:04:00 - [108] Originally by: Squatdog Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:52:40 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:47:10 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 22/06/2008 11:46:46 I'm pretty sure the magic speed for me to be safe from drones is around 5500m/s. You'll mitigate the vast majority of damage, even against Warrior IIs Originally by: Lilith Velkor The target is most likely moon-sized when going that fast and its cruiser class. As stated earlier, railguns dont like transversal, so get in a decent shooting position. It's kind of hard to do when nanos dictate range and are orbiting at 20km. They'll still warp out at the first sign of trouble. Spread out your fleet, if you expec to kill nanos while sitting in a sphere of 6km then you must be joking ______________________________________________ Euriti - I'll continue my nerd forum rage!
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:06:00 - [109] Edited by: Angelonico on 22/06/2008 12:06:41 Cross posting this as there are some many nanowhiners today I can't help myself. I'll just start listing nano counters, then name a few penalties for using a nanocruiser. Counters: a single heavy neut. curse. rapier. hugin. ECM. (t1 blackbird for f's sake.) any other nano cruiser or a few inty's/suicidal t1 frigs. Cons to using: You hit like a girl while moving fast. You're ship probably has expensive rigs. Takes months to train for (many supplementary skills) Takes months to learn how to properly use. (Nano ships are actually "piloted" while most are simply clickign and spamming f1-f8. Uninsurable. Does not function well under lag. Benefits: you stand a fair chance of being able to run away from any given engagement. e-peen. See where i'm going? There is no problem. Polycarbs are 50 mil a pop for f's sake. sure they're popular ships, but they also require a skilled pilot, lots of isk, and at the end of the day - don't really do all that damage. THERE IS NO NANO PROBLEM - WAKE UP AND FIT YOUR SHIPS RIGHT OR GET SOME FRIENDS WITH OTHER T2 CRUISERS. TRY PUTTING AN F'ING HEAVY NEUT ON YOUR FARMING RAVENS.
Napro	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:12:00 - [110] Edited by: Napro on 22/06/2008 12:12:54 Originally by: Tenuo Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: ViRUS Pottage Train for a huginn/rapier and have some dps support and that may stop your whining. Overkill. Train minmatar frigate and fit a webbing vigil. THERE IT IS!!!!!1111! My corpmate has a vigil fit that goes over 4.5k, no rigs, and is more than fast enough to catch most nanoships - as long as the nanogang doesn't have a minnie recon with them (you'd be surprised at how often that is, if you're not actually out where nano's are wont to roam) the nano's either leave or die. On addition to my nano-stiletto, or any other webbing interceptor, plus any other speed-fit T1 tackling frigate, plus heavy neut, plus tracking disruptors, plus smartbombs to kill the nano's drones, plus any of a multitude of other possible counters you could employ that don't require 20 million SP and 10 billion ISK to pull off... just learn how to play the ***** game, THEN you can come on the forum and *** about stuff. QFT The next guy who says "but they get insta pops" gets my capslock thrown into his head, USE TRANSVERSAL! You want a ship that goes slower and is weaker to use transversal to win? LoL? Question for you: If nanos are so easily outclassed by frigates, why are you flying them? Hmm ?
Lilith Velkor Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:13:00 - [111] Originally by: Tenuo Spread out your fleet, if you expec to kill nanos while sitting in a sphere of 6km then you must be joking Sadly people just expect that, they want to within 5km of each other, lob missiles and circle-rep.
Napro	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:14:00 - [112] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: Tenuo Spread out your fleet, if you expec to kill nanos while sitting in a sphere of 6km then you must be joking Sadly people just expect that, they want to within 5km of each other, lob missiles and circle-rep. You're either an moron or a liar. Which is it? Who's the first one to get popped by a nanofag in a fleet? The one not hugging the gate.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:14:00 - [113] Originally by: Angelonico THERE IS NO NANO PROBLEM - WAKE UP AND FIT YOUR SHIPS RIGHT OR GET SOME FRIENDS WITH OTHER T2 CRUISERS. TRY PUTTING AN F'ING HEAVY NEUT ON YOUR FARMING RAVENS. But if I put a heavy neut and a smartbomb (to kill drones) in my 2 utility high slots on my Uber ratting Raven, then we're am I going to fit the tractor beam and salvager? lol u must be a noob. /sarcasm I don't even have any cruiser skill at lvl 5... I don't fly nano ships. I don't defend them because I don't want ccp to break my toy. I defend them 'cause they're not broken. People's defense against the 'fit your ship to counter' argument is "I shouldn't have to use a specialist fit to counter one type of ship" but they can refit their whole ship from mission to mission depending on what kind of NPCs they'll be facing... it's ridiculous. DFIAS Recruitment: OPEN
gpfwestie Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:21:00 - [114] They are overpowered no question. Some more easily attainable counters would be nice, a boost to destroyers range would fix it for me.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:23:00 - [115] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Angelonico THERE IS NO NANO PROBLEM - WAKE UP AND FIT YOUR SHIPS RIGHT OR GET SOME FRIENDS WITH OTHER T2 CRUISERS. TRY PUTTING AN F'ING HEAVY NEUT ON YOUR FARMING RAVENS. But if I put a heavy neut and a smartbomb (to kill drones) in my 2 utility high slots on my Uber ratting Raven, then we're am I going to fit the tractor beam and salvager? lol u must be a noob. /sarcasm I don't even have any cruiser skill at lvl 5... I don't fly nano ships. I don't defend them because I don't want ccp to break my toy. I defend them 'cause they're not broken. People's defense against the 'fit your ship to counter' argument is "I shouldn't have to use a specialist fit to counter one type of ship" but they can refit their whole ship from mission to mission depending on what kind of NPCs they'll be facing... it's ridiculous. So you see no problem with the fact that most of the anti nano setups are infact also nano ships? The only other answer is the vimpire like battleship. I tryed this, went out in a geddon and found me a group of 5 nanos. After they engaged me and found out my sinister plan they bugged out to 200km and left me sitting there. I probably did suck the target ships cap dry but he had enough momentum to get out of range. If I want to kill nano it seems I muct become one of them
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:27:00 - [116] Originally by: Sekse Seske Would you agree? No. Originally by: Mr QUE only takes 1 nano to take down a BS BS can't hit it :) No. learn to play you dimwits Just because some people are noobs or can't think enough to fit their ships it does not mean anything. Nano sucks in general. You need a damn good pilot or a damn bad pilot to take down a BS. I see people putting on tons of rezists as well, somehow it is not helping them. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
Dihania Mucho Dolor	Posted - 2008.06.22 12:54:00 - [117] Edited by: Dihania on 22/06/2008 12:54:37 Originally by: baltec1 .. stuff about failing to kill a nano in a bs.. CLUES: Your countermeasure made sure the nano had to leave you alone. You were facing five adversaries were you using a t1 web? Use a beeter web, use 2. NOW BUG OFF!!! F***KING WHINERS !!!!!!!!! And... NO I do not fly nanos. . EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2008.06.22 13:07:00 - [118] Originally by: Dihania Edited by: Dihania on 22/06/2008 12:54:37 Originally by: baltec1 .. stuff about failing to kill a nano in a bs.. CLUES: Your countermeasure made sure the nano had to leave you alone. You were facing five adversaries were you using a t1 web? Use a beeter web, use 2. NOW BUG OFF!!! F***KING WHINERS !!!!!!!!! And... NO I do not fly nanos. Yea, because a t2 web can reach out to 25-30km Nano ships have next to no defences (other than speed), I was sucking its cap dry, had 5 t2 med drones on it AND 4 heavy pulse lasers along with the eliment of suprise. Yet it still got away.
Turiel Demon SHRIKE.	Posted - 2008.06.22 13:08:00 - [119] Originally by: Angelonico Edited by: Angelonico on 22/06/2008 12:06:41 Cross posting this as there are some many nanowhiners today I can't help myself. I'll just start listing nano counters, then name a few penalties for using a nanocruiser. Counters: a single heavy neut. curse. rapier. hugin. ECM. (t1 blackbird for f's sake.) any other nano cruiser or a few inty's/suicidal t1 frigs. Cons to using: You hit like a girl while moving fast. You're ship probably has expensive rigs. Takes months to train for (many supplementary skills) Takes months to learn how to properly use. (Nano ships are actually "piloted" while most are simply clickign and spamming f1-f8. Uninsurable. Does not function well under lag. Benefits: you stand a fair chance of being able to run away from any given engagement. e-peen. See where i'm going? There is no problem. Polycarbs are 50 mil a pop for f's sake. sure they're popular ships, but they also require a skilled pilot, lots of isk, and at the end of the day - don't really do all that damage. THERE IS NO NANO PROBLEM - WAKE UP AND FIT YOUR SHIPS RIGHT OR GET SOME FRIENDS WITH OTHER T2 CRUISERS. TRY PUTTING AN F'ING HEAVY NEUT ON YOUR FARMING RAVENS. /me agrees. Anyways, as a nanovaga pilot (and I'm seriously scared every time I take my 300m - uninsurable - ship out into combat) I'd say the following are what worry me most: ANY BS: how do I know which ones I can approach? Any single one might have a heavy neut... it's not like it's an uncommon module. The curse also kinda falls in this category. Minny recons: WTF? I'm supposed to travel 9.7 km/s s... not 9.7 m/s :( A Hyena: I'm likely not even gonna NOTICE this thing while I'm attacking a group of enemy ships and suddenly poof, some frigate webs me from 20km (or more with faction webs, not that uncommon) A sniper ship: if an enemy gang has a sniper cruiser or BS at say 100km away (with a little support obviously), the transversal nano gives isn't enough to save you. 1400mm's hurt if you're the size of a small moon. ANY GROUP OF SHIPS GREATER THAN 3: If I want to attack one ship... fine, I can keep the range my speed affords me, but if there's more than a few enemies to keep track of that gets hard fast. Piloting a nano-ship takes VERY quick reaction times to not shoot out past your enemies and flying around your immediate enemy takes up most of your concentration, trying to keep track of a whole enemy fleet and stay out of THEIR web/neut ranges is incredibly hard. Now, can you think of any gang (I'd say competent gang, but that does rule out most) which doesn't include at least one of the above? Most eve combat is determined by the time the ships involved undock, the remainder is determined by how good an FC you have. When you're flying a nano-ship, not so much. Nano's, though able to 'get away' when things get hairy are FRAGILE. If you make ONE mistake you are toast, and that mistake is often something you can't even foresee... My last mistake was being puzzled for half a second about why I couldn't target something (I was jammed), and that half second was enough for me to miss my next required maneuver, and I flew into a domi's web... the drone cloud caught up. That's close to half a billion isk I shan't soon see again, and what did I GET for that isk? A ship which does mediocre damage, and can get away from most things... In effect you're paying money to loose less money on destroyed ships (if things go right). I don't see how that's such a bad thing. I'll keep flying vagas and stilettos. It's fun. It's hard. It's balanced. But if that's all you fly, you're not really that much use to your corp or your gang. ---- nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris
Tenuo Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.06.22 13:15:00 - [120] Originally by: Turiel Demon Originally by: Angelonico Edited by: Angelonico on 22/06/2008 12:06:41 Cross posting this as there are some many nanowhiners today I can't help myself. I'll just start listing nano counters, then name a few penalties for using a nanocruiser. Counters: a single heavy neut. curse. rapier. hugin. ECM. (t1 blackbird for f's sake.) any other nano cruiser or a few inty's/suicidal t1 frigs. Cons to using: You hit like a girl while moving fast. You're ship probably has expensive rigs. Takes months to train for (many supplementary skills) Takes months to learn how to properly use. (Nano ships are actually "piloted" while most are simply clickign and spamming f1-f8. Uninsurable. Does not function well under lag. Benefits: you stand a fair chance of being able to run away from any given engagement. e-peen. See where i'm going? There is no problem. Polycarbs are 50 mil a pop for f's sake. sure they're popular ships, but they also require a skilled pilot, lots of isk, and at the end of the day - don't really do all that damage. THERE IS NO NANO PROBLEM - WAKE UP AND FIT YOUR SHIPS RIGHT OR GET SOME FRIENDS WITH OTHER T2 CRUISERS. TRY PUTTING AN F'ING HEAVY NEUT ON YOUR FARMING RAVENS. /me agrees. Anyways, as a nanovaga pilot (and I'm seriously scared every time I take my 300m - uninsurable - ship out into combat) I'd say the following are what worry me most: ANY BS: how do I know which ones I can approach? Any single one might have a heavy neut... it's not like it's an uncommon module. The curse also kinda falls in this category. Minny recons: WTF? I'm supposed to travel 9.7 km/s s... not 9.7 m/s :( A Hyena: I'm likely not even gonna NOTICE this thing while I'm attacking a group of enemy ships and suddenly poof, some frigate webs me from 20km (or more with faction webs, not that uncommon) A sniper ship: if an enemy gang has a sniper cruiser or BS at say 100km away (with a little support obviously), the transversal nano gives isn't enough to save you. 1400mm's hurt if you're the size of a small moon. ANY GROUP OF SHIPS GREATER THAN 3: If I want to attack one ship... fine, I can keep the range my speed affords me, but if there's more than a few enemies to keep track of that gets hard fast. Piloting a nano-ship takes VERY quick reaction times to not shoot out past your enemies and flying around your immediate enemy takes up most of your concentration, trying to keep track of a whole enemy fleet and stay out of THEIR web/neut ranges is incredibly hard. Now, can you think of any gang (I'd say competent gang, but that does rule out most) which doesn't include at least one of the above? Most eve combat is determined by the time the ships involved undock, the remainder is determined by how good an FC you have. When you're flying a nano-ship, not so much. Nano's, though able to 'get away' when things get hairy are FRAGILE. If you make ONE mistake you are toast, and that mistake is often something you can't even foresee... My last mistake was being puzzled for half a second about why I couldn't target something (I was jammed), and that half second was enough for me to miss my next required maneuver, and I flew into a domi's web... the drone cloud caught up. That's close to half a billion isk I shan't soon see again, and what did I GET for that isk? A ship which does mediocre damage, and can get away from most things... In effect you're paying money to loose less money on destroyed ships (if things go right). I don't see how that's such a bad thing. I'll keep flying vagas and stilettos. It's fun. It's hard. It's balanced. But if that's all you fly, you're not really that much use to your corp or your gang. Awesome post :)

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