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Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.06.25 08:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Angry Poster Edited by: Angry Poster on 25/06/2008 08:46:50 Even though I love my Ishtar (and that doesn't even go 5k) I have to agree with the Op. If you compare so called "speed tanking" with any other form of tanking then it's totally out of proportion. Even if you fit a pure tank on the best (non-capital) tanking ships you will never ever get the same kind of survivability then with a nano ship.
The main problem as I see it is not really the damage mitigation but the fact that besides the fact that you take 0 DPS you also have the option to simply split and run if something goes wrong. Thats like having an Armor Repper (=damage mitigation) that allows you to warp off like a WCS once you're out of cap or don't feel like fighting any more.
The idea of a tank is to mitigate incoming damage - the armor tanker takes damage and then repairs it again (thus taking 0 damage) and the nano flies faster then the turrets tracking and thus takes 0 DPS. Thats all fine and dandy.. both the armor tanker and the nano both use cap to maintain their "tank" (MWD for nano, reppers/boosters/hardners for tanks) but the main difference is that the tanks can't simply split and run (like they had a rack of WCS) but the nano's can do this if something goes wrong... And thats totally out of balance in my opinion.
Either the weapon developers in New Eden need to take the finger out and react to the new need of their customers for weapons that have extremely good tracking or Concord has to implement a speed limit for ships.
No but seriously... the entire nano thing doesn't make sense... neither from a game-balance point of view nor from a role play point of view... I mean.. why the hell would a missile fly half as fast as a ship? Why would gun designers simply resign and say "ah well I guess they just fly to fast.. I guess we'll simply pack our bags and start selling Quafe instead of weapons".
A solution is needed (and if possible a solution that doesn't totally nerf nano but that actually _balances_ it).
Oh and another aspect that makes speed tanking overpowered:
When I'm flying an armor tank then I can mitigate maybe between 200 and 1000 DPS (depending on type of tank etc.) so that means once I take 1000 + 1 damage, that 1 damage will leak through and sooner of later I will die (even if my cap held that long). However a nano can be shot by a single ship and take 0 damage or he can be shot by 50 ships and still take 0 damage. So that means the nano can tank an infinite amound of damage as long as cap holds and the armor tank is limited by the reppers/boosters he has. So if I get an Armor Repper that increases it's rep-power the more people are shooting me then we don't need to rebalance nano.
There's an even better tank - being cloaked, which is immune to all damage since nobody can target you. Of course your damage is **** (nothing). Nanos aren't too far from this. You get mediocre/bad DPS but will take some damage and will probably die if your 50 opposing ships aren't FW noobs in drakes whining about how thier PVE setup wont work in PVE.
Do you even know what a Huginn is? 60km+ web range!? That and a bubble are death for a nanoship...
RP-sense is really irrelevant. Whenever CCP "rebalances" the game whats the RP explanation for that? Did every race decide carriers were really too powerful and shouldn't be logistically useful, so they made it more difficult to transport stuff in industrial ships in ship bays?
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Sileam
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Posted - 2008.06.25 08:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Odar Ryder Just for giggles, I think they should factor in an 'instability' element into MWD where there is a random chance in a thousand that it explodes, taking the Nano into structure and leaving it sans-MWD. This could happen in a fight, this could happen at a safespot. It would give hope to people chasing nano's and make the nano...gents live on the edge.
There is more "fair way" to do that instead of RANDOM dmg. Just make MWD take (maybe even increased) heat-damage while normal using of this module (and double heat-damage when they are overheated). That way nano-ships can use it for fast attack, they can get away with it, but cannot run it for a couple of minutes to orbit and kill you.
Im not against overdive/nano-combo, I just dont like the idea of ALL-IN-ONE ship.
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Angry Poster
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Posted - 2008.06.25 08:59:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia On the other hand, come to think of ità
àthe OP really does explain nanowhines: it shows that a lot of people seem to be unfamiliar with the intricacies of ≡v≡'s hit calculations û especially the rather nasty downsides of MWDs û and that they get blinded by the admittedly insane numbers you can push EFT into producing.
Funnily enough EFT shows that you should do damage on a nano ship with medium guns but every experience I've made in game shows that this is only true if the nano makes a mistake or someone actually manages to tackle them.
Why do you think I fly an Ishtar? Because I get hit all the time by other ships or because it's totally overpowered and I can just fly around the place with near impunity?
Also to the person calling nano pilots "unkilled noobs": Why don't you fly a nano ship a bit... It's not as easy as you may think because mistakes will kill you instantly and then you'll be losing your dual polycarb'd ship. However I agree with you that (once you've got the needed player-skills) you are totally overpowered if you compare it with an armor tanker with the same "player-skill".
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Angry Poster
Funnily enough EFT shows that you should do damage on a nano ship with medium guns but every experience I've made in game shows that this is only true if the nano makes a mistake or someone actually manages to tackle them.
I was about to point that out too. If its not webbed then all I will manage is 0.1 to 50 with my large pulse lasers on a nano zealot.
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Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:06:00 -
[35]
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Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Xparky
LIES ALL LIES NANOS ARE OP IM GOING TO IGNORE THE MASSIVE BODY OF EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. I don't believe in evolution either.
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Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:09:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Xparky on 25/06/2008 09:11:02 And there's always scythes and scimitars that have nice bonuses to tracking links, giving even better tracking, also you can lower the transversal by not sitting on the gate and moving in the same direction your target moves.
It seems it's possible to damage them after all ... . |
Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:10:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shakuul
LIES ALL LIES NANOS ARE OP IM GOING TO IGNORE THE MASSIVE BODY OF EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. I don't believe in evolution either.
Tut, tut, you broke the forums. Edit your post and remove the quoted image. . |
Dihania
Mucho Dolor
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:12:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jeckes What does this mean? it only takes a very measly 100-200 transversal to get under the guns of larger ships, and damage mitigation should come from being faster at a BASE speed, having a smaller signature than the resolution of the gun (tidbit: executioners have a signature radius of 33 as opposed to small turrets signature resolution of 40), maintaining gun range superiority (either being closer to the enemy than their tracking likes, or being farther away from them than their optimal+falloff likes), and exploiting damage types vs what the enemy's tank is weakest at. ... with a nanoship, your transversal can far exceed any gun's capability to track, meaning 0 damage, even if you get in their optimal, simply because the turret cant keep up. Simulate the effect of 5000 transversal in a frig vs small turrets with a tracking of .3, a signature resolution of 40, and an optimal of 10,000. look at the graph. See how pretty all the nice flat lines at the bottom of the graph are? See how the graph lacks any curvature as compared to the first time you used the guide to simulate a 100 transversal? See how that means 0% chance to hit and 0 DPS?
I recomend the use of: Webs, slow the ship down if it gets in 13km. Tracking Enhacers, get better tracking for your guns. Target painters, increase the signature of the ship. (about orbiting you with mwd on, please take into consideration the increased sig)
Originally by: Jeckes
Notice too, how 5000 transversal isnt even close to the speed of current nanoships?
on the 4th page of the tracking guide, you cant even make something do 11k speed, as the page simply isnt big enough, but you can get it to 3k, and with that acheive a 2.8k transversal.
current nanoships can go 11k.
I beg your pardon?! Please count for me how many nano ships can go 11k. Surely all can... Inties go 11k, vaga might go 11k, ok, it's possible. Don't generalize.
Please calculate the isk and skill requirements for a ship to go 11k.
. EVE: "The Hand-holding Age". I need isk!Accepting donations. Renting sig space.Taking various jobs. |
Gamesguy
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jeckes Proof is in the pudding. Everyone says that webbers and neuts are the answer, yet no Nanoship user is willing to post a competent build which can do this simple thing.
P.S. even 6k receives a very nice 1% chance to hit, 1 DPS rating in the tracking guide. stupid nubs.
Did you happen to remember that microwarpdrives makes your sig radius over five times bigger idiot?
Guess what happens when you plug the increase sig radius into the tracking calculator. THIS
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Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.25 09:52:00 -
[41]
Wow… this thread is headed for an image-nerf
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Hannobaal
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.06.25 10:04:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 25/06/2008 10:04:07 Way to completely misrepresent how tracking works while refering to the tracking guide (which you apparently didn't use or you would have known that the speed is to a very large extent counteracted by the huge sig radius increase).
There is no such thing as going to fast for guns to track in terms of just the speed in of itself. A 100% increse in speed together with a 100% increse in sig radius would leave your ship just as easy to track as it was before the increase even though it is going twice as fast. Even a 10 km/s interceptor can be easily tracked by destroyer guns (long ranged ones), and a cruiser going at that speed is many, many times easier to track thanks to its huge sig radius.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.25 10:48:00 -
[43]
Just another nib whining about something he has no idea about. Nothing to see here, move along.
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AltBier
Freelance Unincorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:09:00 -
[44]
Nano complaints aside ...
Originally by: Angry Poster ... why the hell would a missile fly half as fast as a ship?
That's a really good question.
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:29:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Tenuo on 25/06/2008 11:30:25
Originally by: Xparky
You are stupid aren't you? Way to misunderstand a graph. Look on the left side, percentages. at 24km a shocking 78% hit chance on a nano ship! at 60, nearly 100!
Way to shoot yourself in the foot. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tudor again all i can say is nano ship pilots aree loosers, who found a way to exploit the game.. ALL can pilot a nano ship ALL can take the poor kills they take... because they only fight when they are 100% sure of a win, else they RUN RUN...
nano pilots are unskilled idiots.. and yes i know it takes 15 mill sp.. but thats NOTHING... its UNSKILLED...
they suck... and ccp suck for this to keep going.. interceptors should be the fastet ships in the game.. its lame others are faster... FIX IT.. end of story..
nano pilots go suck my ****.. u idiots unskilled lame asses..
Lol at this post, it just goes to show how LITTLE you know. Exploits? Unskilled? Interceptors slower than HACs? I can suck yo ****? _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
Xparky
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:42:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tenuo
You are stupid aren't you? Way to misunderstand a graph. Look on the left side, percentages. at 24km a shocking 78% hit chance on a nano ship! at 60, nearly 100!
Way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Because 78% and 100% chance to hit is not good enough to hit nanos ? . |
Doonoo Boonoo
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:42:00 -
[48]
Ooh look. Another Noob whining about Nanos.
More Noobs calling people names because they fly Nanos.
Experienced players giving advice and help to the Noobs on how deal with Nanos.
More Noobs ignoring everyones advice.
If you suck at PvP or taking advice I suggest you :
GO BACK TO MOTSU AND FIGHT NPCs.
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Tippia
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Experienced players giving advice and help to the Noobs on how deal with Nanos.
Hey! I'm a n00b, and I mostly fight NPCs…
…that doesn't mean I don't understand what "Signature Radius Bonus 500%" means.
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Noelle Fay
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:49:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Doonoo Boonoo Ooh look. Another Noob whining about Nanos.
More players calling people names because they fly Nanos.
Experienced players giving advice and stating that nanos are indeed too strong and present.
Me not even reading the thread but trolling around.. If you suck at PvP or taking advice I suggest you : LEAVE ME ALONE, IT TOOK MONTHS FOR ME TO TRAIN A NANOHAC UP TO WHERE I WILL NEVER DIE.
fixed
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke. |
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Cpt Jagermeister
Spacelane Ghosts
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:52:00 -
[51]
Quote: No but seriously... the entire nano thing doesn't make sense... neither from a game-balance point of view nor from a role play point of view... I mean.. why the hell would a missile fly half as fast as a ship? Why would gun designers simply resign and say "ah well I guess they just fly to fast.. I guess we'll simply pack our bags and start selling Quafe instead of weapons".
Hmm, he does make a point. *Slowly backs away from topic*
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Shanija
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:58:00 -
[52]
Isn't part of the problem in the OP that webifiers are horribly overpowered? It seems like webs would destroy a huge number of ships that are meant to use speed as part of their defense. Just limiting the discussion to nanos seems to miss part of it.
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Noelle Fay
I THINK NANO PEOPLE ARE STUPID IDIOTS I WANT TO KILL THEM IN MY CARACAL THEREFORE I'M FIXING THIS QUOTE BECAUSE I'M A BITTER LITTLE MILITIA IDIOT.
fyp.
if this is the way you want to discuss then we discuss it like this. _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
Deja Thoris
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:10:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Odar Ryder Just for giggles, I think they should factor in an 'instability' element into MWD where there is a random chance in a thousand that it explodes, taking the Nano into structure and leaving it sans-MWD. This could happen in a fight, this could happen at a safespot. It would give hope to people chasing nano's and make the nano...gents live on the edge.
Ok, same for your cherished HML2's then please )
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Dotard
Suddenly Samurai
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:11:00 -
[55]
Nano'd up ships are fine as they are.
STFU.
--------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
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Tenuo
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:12:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Xparky
Originally by: Tenuo
You are stupid aren't you? Way to misunderstand a graph. Look on the left side, percentages. at 24km a shocking 78% hit chance on a nano ship! at 60, nearly 100!
Way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Because 78% and 100% chance to hit is not good enough to hit nanos ?
By the "20 DPS" i thought you implied that the dps sucked -.- _______________________________________________________________________________ EVE Online: The Hand-holding Age The truth about balance is that it doesn't exist. |
FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:14:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Way to completely misrepresent how tracking works while refering to the tracking guide (which you apparently didn't use or you would have known that the speed is to a very large extent counteracted by the huge sig radius increase).
There is no such thing as going to fast for guns to track in terms of just the speed in of itself. A 100% increse in speed together with a 100% increse in sig radius would leave your ship just as easy to track as it was before the increase even though it is going twice as fast. Even a 10 km/s interceptor can be easily tracked by destroyer guns (long ranged ones), and a cruiser going at that speed is many, many times easier to track thanks to its huge sig radius.
Singnature of MWDing ship is 5 times bigger - truth. Tracking MWDing ship is same as non-MWDing - blatant lie. 1. All MWD but the T1 unnamed give greater speed increase then sig increase 2. Skills and implants increase speed boost of MWD 2. Nanofibers/polycarbs increase that speed even more
Take a ship and put 3 nanofibers T2 and MWD T2 on it, and look - even with no skills/implants ship goes at 7-10 times its normal speed when MWD is on, and signature is only 5 times greater.
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:16:00 -
[58]
i wouldn't nerf nano as such. it's an extremely expensive sport and even if you dictate terms of your fight, every now and then, everyone makes mistakes and a istake for nano ship is usually death. cost of mistake for t2 fitted standard tanking ship is only a fraction of cost of nanoship, not to mention what happens when you get podded.
nanoships are specialised vessels used by extremely specialised pilots. they use faction fits/expensive rigs and implants. if you used same kind of equipment on a counter nano gang (domi and db webs, faction neuts, gangs with rapiers, arazus and command ships), you'd find that catching a nano ship isn't as difficult as it seems to be. even db webber which costs less than 100mil reaches out to 14km (18.2km overloaded). combine that with some gang bonuses and voilla.
or do something out of ordinary eg. fit a scorp with tank, webs, scram, neuts and precision cruise missiles and wait for a nanoship
eve is becoming a very specialised game, there is no ship that can counter everything nowadays, so you need to fit for a particular purpose.
just to finish with, bulding a nanoship you're sacrificing a lot: tank and dps.. just bear that in mind.
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FlameGlow
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tenuo
Originally by: Noelle Fay
I THINK NANO PEOPLE ARE STUPID IDIOTS I WANT TO KILL THEM IN MY CARACAL THEREFORE I'M FIXING THIS QUOTE BECAUSE I'M A BITTER LITTLE MILITIA IDIOT.
fyp.
if this is the way you want to discuss then we discuss it like this.
Ironically, Caracal is pretty good, it can get it's precision light missile explosion velocity to over 7 km/s
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Bo Bojangles
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:09:00 -
[60]
Nanos are far from impervious as I can attest having lost a few. You guys just need to learn how to fight them. They are not npc's.
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