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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:11:00 -
[2071]
Originally by: marakor
Manipulate others posts much?.
I only left the relevant bits of that quite long-winded post.
What was your point, anyway? That numbers shouldn't win (or don't win now in sufficent quantities)? That part is quite untrue on both counts.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:19:00 -
[2072]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: marakor
Manipulate others posts much?.
I cut out the relevant bits of that post cos they did not suit my purposes.
Fixed.
And yes i know you do not understand the point or are avoiding it, perhaps you should stick to low sec noob ganking.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:28:00 -
[2073]
Originally by: marakor
I'm just whining because I deserve to win when outnumbered if I'm flying nanoships.
Well, yeah, I get that part.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:36:00 -
[2074]
Edited by: marakor on 19/08/2008 13:36:17
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/08/2008 13:28:36
Originally by: marakor
I'm just whining because I deserve to win when outnumbered if I'm flying nanoships.
im an idiot
As a low sec ganker i suppose you would know all about outnumbering ppl so them having a ability to get away from you cos you need to tank guns must be a real pain. No wonder your supporting the nerf as its always easier to get ccp to wipe you botty for ya than actually work for it.
PS: Deserve to win has nothing to do with it, the truth is that a well prepared, well fitted, well led and well skilled gang SHOULD be able to beat a less prepared ect gang but these nerfs are removing and lowering the options in preference for the skilless blob mentality. But like you say you do not understand it as its beyond you skill level. |
Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:52:00 -
[2075]
Originally by: marakor
What I do know how to do in addition to alt troll the forums, I know how to make ad hominem attacks and claim that I deserve to win because my tactics are 'better'. Furthermore, I am good at tactics because we always pwnzors our enemies when we bring 5 nanoships to their conventional ship. Also, EvE is dying.
Anyway, EvE has always been about numbers. Tactics, teamwork and so on is a force multiplier, but ultimately, the side which can significantly outblob you like mad will win. It's like that on TQ, it's like that on SISI; only on TQ you might want to blob in nanoships (but anything will do if you outblob enough). What's this discussion about?
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.19 14:17:00 -
[2076]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: marakor
What I do know how to do in addition to alt troll the forums, I know how to make ad hominem attacks and claim that I deserve to win because my tactics are 'better'. Furthermore, I am good at tactics because we always pwnzors our enemies when we bring 5 nanoships to their conventional ship. Also, EvE is dying.
Anyway, EvE has always been about numbers. Tactics, teamwork and so on is a force multiplier, but ultimately, the side which can significantly outblob you like mad will win. It's like that on TQ, it's like that on SISI; only on TQ you might want to blob in nanoships (but anything will do if you outblob enough).
In that case NANO does not need changing and those who are crying about the standard nano ships are either cannot blob enough or are not skilled enough or smart enough to be able to effectively fight the well trained and skilled pilots who do fly it.
Personally i like the fact that it forces ppl out of their ratting fitted ships and into pvp fitted ships to fight while also forcing them to skill up in gang and individual skill. |
oilio
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.19 18:04:00 -
[2077]
Originally by: marakor For a game that is supposed to be about enjoyment, team work, combat and skill CCP seem to be going out of their way to reduce it to a game of space invaders where we all sit opposite each other unable to avoid damage or get away and plug away at each other until one side runs out of ships.
This nerf allows sheer numbers and alpha strike to dictate who wins and engagement instead of piloting skill and team work. All i need do it get a bunch of medium range good dps ships and i can insta pop most ships from BC down without even tackling them. 5-10 for a cruiser or smaller and double or so for anything bigger and screw tackle i can vaporize it with my first volley. If i have a bubble up i can waste several and all i need fit are sensor boosters and dmg mods cos a web and point aint needed.
I have no problem removing or reducing the 30kms ships or even the 10-15kms ships but removing speed tanking utterly from the game will reduce the game to a static affair involving no skill or team work being really needed in gang vs gang fights.
With nano you need to web, tackle and hold them to pop them (exactly how the game was designed or why have webs and tackle) you have your webbers and tacklers call jams on their webbers and tacklers while they do the same to yours and the maneuvering, repositioning, team work and skill involved in doing so for both sides is not only the most entertaining form of pvp in the game but its a real test of the individual piloting skill everybody should be learning.
The problem there is getting near them to tackle them
If you want to get near a nano-gang to tackle them, you'll generally need a nano gang.
I don't agree with those who say "nanos are fine - no changes needed", but the original changes proposed by CCP were way over the top.
Nanos need to be tweaked, not gouged.
It was obvious that things had gone too far when CCP were talking about having to nerf missiles and drones in order to compensate for the speed-nerf.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.19 22:55:00 -
[2078]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 19/08/2008 22:59:34
In a say 20-30 vs 20-30 fight without NANO ships who is gonna win is mostly decided before the fight starts so a lot of FC's seeing heavy losses even if they win will choose not to engage at all.
If the nerf goes through most of the time both gangs will be in range of each other and start plugging away at the primary target. Each sides primary targets will be virtually insta popped unless they are heavily plated or RR'd BS along with every other ship that gets hit with the focused fire of 20-30 ships.
Nano on the other hand almost always has to be webbed and tackled to be hit and killed and its within that need that the best pvp in eve is born as pilots maneuver for position trying to avoid getting killed while also trying to get kills themselves.
Without nano if a 15-20 man gang sees a 30 or more sized gang (or even another 15-20 man gang in some cases) they will proly not engage at all even with similar ship types unless its a leeroy op. But a NANO gang will at least give it a try even against another larger NANO gang as losing a good portion of the gang is not guaranteed like it would be if this stupid nerf goes through. |
Kreeak
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Posted - 2008.08.19 23:11:00 -
[2079]
Originally by: marakor
PS: Deserve to win has nothing to do with it, the truth is that a well prepared, well fitted, well led and well skilled gang SHOULD be able to beat a less prepared ect gang but these nerfs are removing and lowering the options in preference for the skilless blob mentality. But like you say you do not understand it as its beyond you skill level.
Your posts reek of bleating nanowh*re. I doubt you could beat a gang of isk farmers without your precious speed HAS and Recons. Lowering the options...what a ****load of bull.
When you are able to avoid wetting yourself while facing massive numbers and without abusing silly, broken speed mechanics, then you may speak of skill. |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.19 23:25:00 -
[2080]
Edited by: marakor on 19/08/2008 23:41:15
Originally by: Kreeak
Originally by: marakor
PS: Deserve to win has nothing to do with it, the truth is that a well prepared, well fitted, well led and well skilled gang SHOULD be able to beat a less prepared ect gang but these nerfs are removing and lowering the options in preference for the skilless blob mentality. But like you say you do not understand it as its beyond you skill level.
Your posts reek of bleating nanowh*re. I doubt you could beat a gang of isk farmers without your precious speed HAS and Recons. Lowering the options...what a ****load of bull.
When you are able to avoid wetting yourself while facing massive numbers and without abusing silly, broken speed mechanics, then you may speak of skill.
Bitter carebear in a blob alliance much?.
1. Yes ive flown nano although i mostly fly caldari now.
2. Your a very bitter angry and ignorant person i suggest you get help.
3. Yes it is lowering option's bud, when you remove some thing that means there's less its simple math really.
4. Playing EVE does not take bravery as its just a computer game, so "wetting ones self" or comments similar are really just silly emo rants and like i say you should get help.
5. Facing massive numbers is a blob and blob combat is not skilled in the least on a piloting level, unless you are so crap a pilot that you think aligning is worthy of being considered a combat pro skill.
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Meina Lamia
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Posted - 2008.08.20 06:01:00 -
[2081]
Nanos have nothing to do with creating tactics, tactics have been a part of EVE long befor Nanos were around. I have killed A LOT in EVE and been killed A LOT in EVE. HACs have killed me LONG befor Nanos came along and I have never had a issue with it other then thinking well that sucked but its not something you complain about. HACs have been killing ships for a long time without Nano speed which in and of itself shows the ships do work.
I Have seen many Nano Gangs now, most do NOT engage each other, I have talked to a few and even the ones I am in do not like to engage other gangs cause the Risk of loss is so much greater. The ships cost a ton and more then likely since both sides more then likely have very good pilots, somebody is likely to get Podded and lose those implants, so it just easier to hunt for weaker prey.
And btw, I have been in A LOT of fights with close to even numbers, they make the heart pound the most because at that point it really comes down to the FCs tactics and people following orders or making a good if the FC was wrong.
So Nano HACS are NOT something that IS NEEDED. Its someting SOME people WANT that is easy to use against those not prepared and easy to kill.
My questions would be this.
1) How effective should speed tanking be. 2) How effective should speed tanking be vs its own weapon class. 3) Should Cruisers Class ships have the option of speed tanking. 4) What Weapon Options should we have available to us as a Counter to Fast Ships.
My Opinion
1) I think it should be moderatly effective, speed tanks are Skiermish Fighters, I can easly see 10 Nano Ships taking on half their number and winning without a loss 2) I think you should be able to reduce incoming firepower from your own class Weapons by 30-40% and it gets better a size class above you. 3) ONLY if number 2 and 4 is achieved. 4) I think Missiles in general should be reworked and Precision be specificly made to catch and be effective against Speed Tanking ships. But they are Very Subpar on damage compaired to the Standard Version of the same missile class.
Assualt launchers are perfect for the Idea of a Escort Role, If the idea of how Precision Missils work are reworked properly, it would full fill this roll Peferctly. Would be very effective vs Frigs and Intys and Moderately so vs Nano Hacs (if they are still around)
You could build a Heavy Missile version of the Assualt Launcher that only Battlships can use. With Heavy Precision missiles, it would be very effective vs Nano HACs and only marginal vs Frigs and null vs a fast moving Inty.
For those who dont use missles, a Gun version would be needed. What balances them is that they would sacrifice a very decent amount of DPS vs their own class but can defend themselves. Its a option they would have to think about.
Which to me is what EVE has been about, OPTIONS. Different builds for different rolls.
I think alot of the issue with Blobs is exiting a gate. Fix it so you randomly appear at least 300KM out and you will find Snipers reamerging and making it dangerous agian for gate campers. The issue then will be, Snipers have to much range, I still believe if speeds are reduced proplerly, they only need 100 to 150KM range and the rest is Station/Captiol range only.
I still remember when I use to preaching about going all out tanking a ship and sending them in first to get targeted and then the DPS ships in next and people laughed, then two weeks later some other group did it to us and wiped out our gate camp.
I thought it was awesome, somebody actually decided that Snipers were not the only way to go and their large group brought in these tanked ships with DPS and EW behind them and messed us up good, Tactics in Action, I lost a BC but it was a Great LOSS!
Options for different tactics with nobody being iummun to loss and a commitment to action.
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 08:35:00 -
[2082]
Originally by: Meina Lamia If i say the word "tactics" a lot ppl may think i know what im talking about.
1. Two 30 man roaming gangs meet and actually decide to engage.
2. A lot of ships on both sides go pop from sheer alpha strikes.
3. Eventually one side either runs out of ships or the few that side has remaining manage to warp off.
Now you can bleat on and use the word "tactics" and "but tactics" and insert the word "strategy" into the conversation as much as you wish. But the truth is that without speed to keep ppl alive until they are "actually tackled" a gang vs gang fight (unless one side is set up for cloak camp sniping like BE) is gonna be a skilless slug fest.
Originally by: Meina Lamia I Have seen many Nano Gangs now, most do NOT engage each other, I have talked to a few and even the ones I am in do not like to engage other gangs cause the Risk of loss is so much greater. The ships cost a ton and more then likely since both sides more then likely have very good pilots, somebody is likely to get Podded and lose those implants, so it just easier to hunt for weaker prey.
If what you say is true then the same ppl will be just as unwilling or to be honest even more unwilling to get involved in a static slug fest for exactly the same reason. So by your experiences not only will these pilots avoid even more fights as they are almost guaranteed to incur losses but also a lot of other pilots who would normally engage avoid them as well.
Originally by: Meina Lamia
My questions would be this.
1) How effective should speed tanking be. 2) How effective should speed tanking be vs its own weapon class. 3) Should Cruisers Class ships have the option of speed tanking. 4) What Weapon Options should we have available to us as a Counter to Fast Ships.
My Opinion
1) I think it should be moderatly effective, speed tanks are Skiermish Fighters, I can easly see 10 Nano Ships taking on half their number and winning without a loss 2) I think you should be able to reduce incoming firepower from your own class Weapons by 30-40% and it gets better a size class above you. 3) ONLY if number 2 and 4 is achieved. 4) I think Missiles in general should be reworked and Precision be specificly made to catch and be effective against Speed Tanking ships. But they are Very Subpar on damage compaired to the Standard Version of the same missile class.
1. It should be effective there is no middle ground or "moderate" is either works or it does not. 2. An untackled unwebbed ship should be very effective against its own weapon class and most others tbh, as killing a untackled ship should be "breaking the game" as you nerfits love to claim. 3. YES 100% its the only thing that makes them worth flying (especially the more expensive HAC) above battle cruisers. 4. None or you may as well not fit webbers or points and stick sensor boosters in your mids instead.
Get your head around this little equation:
The game is broken because ships can easily be popped without being tackled so NANO ships do not break the game they fix the fact that ships can be easily and insta popped without being tackled.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.20 11:33:00 -
[2083]
Edited by: DeadDuck on 20/08/2008 11:36:12
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 19/08/2008 22:59:34
In a say 20-30 vs 20-30 fight without NANO ships who is gonna win is mostly decided before the fight starts so a lot of FC's seeing heavy losses even if they win will choose not to engage at all.
If the nerf goes through most of the time both gangs will be in range of each other and start plugging away at the primary target. Each sides primary targets will be virtually insta popped unless they are heavily plated or RR'd BS along with every other ship that gets hit with the focused fire of 20-30 ships.
Nano on the other hand almost always has to be webbed and tackled to be hit and killed and its within that need that the best pvp in eve is born as pilots maneuver for position trying to avoid getting killed while also trying to get kills themselves.
Without nano if a 15-20 man gang sees a 30 or more sized gang (or even another 15-20 man gang in some cases) they will proly not engage at all even with similar ship types unless its a leeroy op. But a NANO gang will at least give it a try even against another larger NANO gang as losing a good portion of the gang is not guaranteed like it would be if this stupid nerf goes through.
Sorry, without nanos the fight is already decided ? Without nanos the smaller gang will not engage ? You are so wrong.
I've been in plenty of figts in witch we were more then confident that we would going to win and ended completely BBQ'ed. I've been in plenty of fights in witch the smaller gang engaged and won.
Not tactics in heavier gangs, no skill in heavier gang fights ??? The only difference is that when you commit to a fight, it will cost you a lot to disengage. The maneuvering is extremely important in heavier gang fights, the coordination and the team work is extremely important in heavy gang fights. Wrong decisions during a fight that he's going well can completely turn the tide from potential victory to complete disaster.
I will tell you just this... The nano nerf is good cause the supposed PVP players will have to COMMIT when they decide to engage. The present situation you see ships running so fast from fights that even intys have troubles catching them.
If the nano fans still want to keep the chance to not commit and still want to keep their velocity, they can always move to AF's and/or inty's.
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.20 11:51:00 -
[2084]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 20/08/2008 11:55:08
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
In a say 20-30 vs 20-30 fight without NANO ships who is gonna win is mostly decided before the fight starts so a lot of FC's seeing heavy losses even if they win will choose not to engage at all.
If the nerf goes through most of the time both gangs will be in range of each other and start plugging away at the primary target. Each sides primary targets will be virtually insta popped unless they are heavily plated or RR'd BS along with every other ship that gets hit with the focused fire of 20-30 ships.
Nano on the other hand almost always has to be webbed and tackled to be hit and killed and its within that need that the best pvp in eve is born as pilots maneuver for position trying to avoid getting killed while also trying to get kills themselves.
Without nano if a 15-20 man gang sees a 30 or more sized gang (or even another 15-20 man gang in some cases) they will proly not engage at all even with similar ship types unless its a leeroy op. But a NANO gang will at least give it a try even against another larger NANO gang as losing a good portion of the gang is not guaranteed like it would be if this stupid nerf goes through.
Sorry, without nanos the fight is already decided ? Without nanos the smaller gang will not engage ? You are so wrong.
I've been in plenty of figts in witch we were more then confident that we would going to win and ended completely BBQ'ed. I've been in plenty of fights in witch the smaller gang engaged and won.
Not tactics in heavier gangs, no skill in heavier gang fights ??? The only difference is that when you commit to a fight, it will cost you a lot to disengage. The maneuvering is extremely important in heavier gang fights, the coordination and the team work is extremely important in heavy gang fights. Wrong decisions during a fight that he's going well can completely turn the tide from potential victory to complete disaster.
I will tell you just this... The nano nerf is good cause the supposed PVP players will have to COMMIT when they decide to engage. The present situation you see ships running so fast from fights that even intys have troubles catching them.
If you keep saying the word "tactic" enough times and using it in regards to blobs or static gang fighting im sure there are ppl out there who will believe you. Unfortunately it will only be ppl who have no idea what real gang vs gang pvp in eve is like.
Originally by: DeadDuck "The maneuvering is extremely important in heavier gang fights"
Actually maneuvering means f*ck all in heavier gang fights as speed no longer effects or reduces dmg.
CVA drop blobs on solo gankers to med sized gangs so im not surprised your supporting a nerf that will "cost you a lot to disengage" all though "cost you a lot to disengage the blob we drop on you" is probably more accurate. |
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.20 13:41:00 -
[2085]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Your not a pvper your a lazy skilless blobber.
Maybe you're right, but hey, at least I know how to deal with nanos, by the looks you dont know how to deal with the incoming nerf... . |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:14:00 -
[2086]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Your not a pvper your a lazy skilless blobber.
Originally by: DeadDuck Maybe you're right, but hey, at least I know how to deal with nanos
By crying to ccp so they slow them down for you?. LOSER
by the looks you dont know how to deal with the incoming nerf....
I have not flown a nano ship in a few months in fact my last 5 or 6 hundred kills were in non nano'd caldari ships. |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:17:00 -
[2087]
Edited by: marakor on 20/08/2008 14:23:15
Originally by: Dan Grensson
"overall variety and inventive gameplay is being boosted"
Wrong.
before the nerf a nano gang was used for roaming because it was so versatile and had a "chance" to be effective. It consisted of:
HAC's Recons Command ships Logistics Hics Dics Ceptors Even t1 variations of the above ships could be used.
Obviously the defender has the advantage of being able to swap out into any ship he has in his hangar depending on what is needed so a anti nano gang would consist of:
Ceptors/friggies (fast tacklers) Cruisers/battlecruisers (dps) Hacs (nano fitted to help tackle or kill) Recons (jamming/webbing/nueting) Command ships (bonuses+dps) Logistics (keeping tacklers and others alive) Nuet fitted BS (dps+cap killer/tackle)
With both gangs great team work and piloting skill is utterly essential.
Now after the NANO nerf do you really think your gonna need all those ships and the team work to fight a slow ass roaming gang?:
Ceptors/friggies (why bother when a bubble or two can stop warp offs and the gang is to slow to get out of it before popping).
Hacs(your kidding right a 100mil waste of space)
Recons(pointless as anything can now be easily hit and so alpha strike'd to death).
Command ships(no need as BC are a cheaper option).
Logistics (maybe but if your using heavily insured BC they are hardly much of a loss).
Nuet fitted BS (why bother with a nuet when the alpha off a single dps fitted bs can almost insta most cruisers, in fact why bother flying BS at all as the insured BC is a much better option).
So what are we left with?...oh yes BC, and maybe hics, dics and logistics if you can be bothered to bring them.
And team work?...well i suppose some ppl consider locking a designated target and hitting f1-f8 a skill......... |
Meina Lamia
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:23:00 -
[2088]
I don't know what fantasy world you live in but we never had 30 man gangs "accidently" run into each other. Both sides normally have "Scouts".
When I fly my Rapier, Nano Gangs love to "Alphat Strike" it when ever possible. I Have NEVER had a Nano Gang send one or two ships after my Rapier. Its normaly a crap load of Drones and the rest "BLOB" me.
And when I fly in Nano gangs, we do the same.
ROFL you are CORRECT! ! ! One side or the other runs out of ships and runs off, we call it the effects of Combat!
And now, it mainly comes down to Risk vs Reward, they don't want to Risk such massive amounts of ISK, and I don't blame them. I normally have a few hundred Mil in ISK in my ship, many spend FAR more then I do in officer and implants.
And I plain outright disagree with you. The all or nothing speed tank is nothing more then a shooting gallery, where the docks can't shoot back and you just collect the prize at the Fair.
Commitment should ALWAYS be the name of the game here.
As for Heavy Gangs not having as much tatics, thats rubbish. Long range ships are being called to Snipe, EW singlying out targets to disrupt, short range Blaster/AC ships racing to get to those who they can reach and hopeing EW will keep them damped till they get to them. If you are winning, Tacklers being called to grab what stragglers that are trying to run away from the battle. Alot is going on.
I remember many a time have big talks while sitting on gate talking about the best way to engage the type of ships our scounts have informed us of. I remember a while back where we were badly outnumbered with another fleet on the other side. We were sitting on our gate and as they started to approch their side and started to come through, we move as one and went in and cought half their ships off guard, and killed them and as the other half warped back to the gate to help out their buddies, we killed them to. The Enemy had about 45% more ships then we did, and we destroyed about 85% of their fleet while losing about 15% of ours.
THAT was a RUSH.
And Team Work is involved in ANY GANG TYPE where people want to do Team Work. And if you think about it for those who say slow gangs are about lack of skills, it can also be said, Nano's are for those who want easy kills and dont want to fight those With Skills. Check how many Nano ships have died to Nanos and how many Non Nano ships have died to Non Nano ships.
I bet that would prove to be a interesting picture.
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Euriti
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:35:00 -
[2089]
Originally by: Tash D'Angst I've read around 80% (no exageration) of the posts in this thread and held my piece. For every ridiculous, fantasy-based, "I'm-clearly-a-noob" post, someone has responded with actual, factual scenarios and statistics to disprove it. Most of the time, their logic is too much for the nay-sayer to handle and they go on believing their own lies.
One thing that I haven't seen is a clear definition of what truly constitutes the abuse of game mechanics to the point of being "broken". Thought I might sum that one up for those of us who see the need to address certain nano ships without totally crushing the tactic.
A ship that suffers the same drop in DPS as a result of their speed is not an abuse of game mechanics. This includes any/every nano that has to consider turret tracking. That leaves drone and missile boats up on the chopping block. Ishtars, Sacs, Curses-- anything that can use speeds to mitigate/avoid incredible amounts of damage but don't suffer a drop to their primary dps as a result.
Sadly, nerfing these ships in terms of reducing their speed DOES threaten their ability to participate in skirmish warfare, not to mention their ability to function better than a Tier 2 Battlecruiser. There is really no great solution to this problem, as adding a feature similar to turret tracking to these ships (especially drone boats) is not only difficult, but harmful to other vessels that use the same weapons platforms but aren't prone to being nano'd.
The issue of ludicrous speed is, imho, not really an issue at all so long as it, too, revolves around the notion of turret tracking. Although Battleships and BCs should likely never be able to crack 2-3 k/s (Claymore's and Machariel's), this is an easy problem to solve.
If a ship truly absuses the speed mechanics or is in too heavy a class to justify such speeds, tack on mass until the problem goes away. As this will also result in too large a decrease in agility, adjust Inertia Modifier values to compensate appropriately. That way, HACs still manuever like HACs but don't fade massive amounts of DPS while still hitting their own maximum damage numbers. BS and BC still align and reach top speed at a feasible level, but that top speed is reduced to better reflect their size.
If you want to address "ludicrous" speeds, a board-sweeping nerf to all speed modules AND implants AND gang modules AND boosters AND mass values is the A-bomb solution to a scalpel-sized problem. Instead, focus on the high-end factors that make these speeds possible, leaving the standard T1 rigged/T2 fit versions (as they are by far the most common) alone and functioning as they do now.
That means a nerf to Snakes, boosters and Faction/Deadspace/Officer MWDs. Using the micro as an example, make the jump from T2 to Gistii A a bit smaller. 550% to 677% (or whatever the exact figure may be) can be reduced from 550% to 600% as the max. T2, 550%. Gistii C-type, 555%. B-type, 560%, A-type, 575%, and so on. There's a lot of buffer zone to play around with in that area-- use it!
If the problem still persists, take a look at Overheating and gang bonuses. Bringing Polycarbons in line with other rigs is a reasonable idea as well. Address stacking penalties to all speed-effecting stats next, so on and so forth.
Idealy, the "problem" nano-HACs and Recons should still be able to reach similar speeds as they already do on TQ. Tweaking mass and agility factors would simply mean that they accelerate, turn and orbit at speeds low enough to justify their ability to output DPS despite the issue of tracking. Simple.
--Tash
Couldn't have said it better myself, really. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:41:00 -
[2090]
The difference in perception on what requires "more skill", "more tactics", etc. is based on a difference of understanding of what consists of a fight.
For some people, the fight starts when you load the hostiles in grid (decide to warp in, locked them, fired the first shot - all the same). The following fight is (somewhat) more "skill-intensive" for the nanos, because they have to maneuver a lot to utilize their strengths.
For other people, the fight starts when you undock. How do you cut off the route of the hostiles? Where do you deploy your forces? Which forces do you deploy? How do you get the others to engage, but still ensure your victory? Traps, bait, etc. - the actual firing is then just a continuation of this "preparation". Nano gangs require much less skill in this area, because you do not commit to a fight as much as with heavier fleets.
One side telling the other that they don't "require skills" is just a bit sad, but hey, we have a very sad thread alltogether here, so I guess that fits.
Nanos right now are considered to require too little skills in the preparation phase. For the little preparation they require, they are considered too effective. Hence they get nerfed. You will still be able to do nano fleets after the nerf, but you will have to invest a bit more skills into preparation and strategy before the actual shooting.
Take it as a challenge. |
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:43:00 -
[2091]
Originally by: Meina Lamia I don't know what fantasy world you live in but we never had 30 man gangs "accidently" run into each other. Both sides normally have "Scouts".
What ever you wanna call it bud scouted each other, finding each other, whatever...sheesh is this the best you can really do?.
Originally by: Meina Lamia When I fly my Rapier, Nano Gangs love to "Alphat Strike" it when ever possible. I Have NEVER had a Nano Gang send one or two ships after my Rapier. Its normaly a crap load of Drones and the rest "BLOB" me.
And when I fly in Nano gangs, we do the same.
Ok il throw you a bone here as you seem to need help, there are these things called logistic ships and also there is this thing called a overview now the logistic's ships can keep you alive and the overview can tell you who is close to you and who has points or webs and you can call for ewar among other things.
Now while that is going on you should also be looking for potential targets that have split from the main group to attack you and have the respective ships in your gang deal with them
Now what you need to do is train up whatever muppet corp or alliance your in to use these tools ccp has given you to be more effective instead of expecting them to wipe your botty for you instead.
Originally by: Meina Lamia And I plain outright disagree with you. The all or nothing speed tank is nothing more then a shooting gallery, where the ducks can't shoot back and you just collect the prize at the Fair.
So your so unskilled and your corp/alliance on its home turf is so unprepared and so are its members as you have no ready combat ships in there hangars that you consider yourself ducks in a barrel???..ok but thats your fault not the games pal.
Originally by: Meina Lamia Commitment should ALWAYS be the name of the game here.
I stopped playing space invaders when i was a child, but if you still enjoy that sort of setup in your fighting games maybe you should checkout some retro online shops.
Originally by: Meina Lamia As for Heavy Gangs not having as much tatics, thats rubbish. Long range ships are being called to Snipe, EW singlying out targets to disrupt, short range Blaster/AC ships racing to get to those who they can reach and hopeing EW will keep them damped till they get to them. If you are winning, Tacklers being called to grab what stragglers that are trying to run away from the battle. Alot is going on.
Close range ships die within seconds cos they cannot speed tank, ewar is utterly infective in med sized gang vs gang fight as it is imposable to allocate it effectively. All you need bring is DPS, in a BC most likely as it is the most cost effective ship in the new space invader eve.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:05:00 -
[2092]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 20/08/2008 14:17:13
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
Your not a pvper your a lazy skilless blobber.
Originally by: DeadDuck Maybe you're right, but hey, at least I know how to deal with nanos
By crying to ccp so they slow them down for you?. LOSER
Originally by: DeadDuck by the looks you dont know how to deal with the incoming nerf.
I have not flown a nano ship in a few months in fact my last 5 or 6 hundred kills were in non nano'd caldari ships.
Ok... then you better update your statistics on your KB, cause is only showing 195 kills, with a average of 36/month, being your prefered ship a cloacking Falcon... but you probably have a army of alts and accounts isn't it, Mr PVP God ...
Dont whine so much, you pass half of your time cloacked anyway... |
Karad Forsky
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:06:00 -
[2093]
Edited by: Karad Forsky on 20/08/2008 15:11:31
Originally by: marakor ewar is utterly infective in med sized gang vs gang fight as it is imposable to allocate it effectively.
Not strictly true, as Caldari jamming boats can fit only one type of racial jammer and coordinate with other jammers in gang, making the spreading of EW on the hostiles much easier.
Originally by: DeadDuck Ok... then you better update your statistics on your KB, cause is only showing 195 kills, with a average of 36/month, being your prefered ship a cloacking Falcon... but you probably have a army of alts and accounts isn't it, Mr PVP God ...
Dont whine so much, you pass half of your time cloacked anyway...
You are embarassing the good name of your alliance, suggest you stop it please. Killboard statistics are hardly a measure of PvP prowess.
http://udie.griefwatch.net & http://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard |
Meina Lamia
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:09:00 -
[2094]
You are either clueless or as I suspect, try to be clever and add argument without substance. All I senese from your posts is that you want to brow beat others into submission to your ideas.
Hop into your Death Star, throw some Nanos on it and run around blowing up planets cause you are to fast for the X-Wings to catch let alone shoot.
Or maybe you are the Last Starfighter! In your Nanoed Starfigher, out to defeat Zur and the Codan Armada and free us from the tranny of the Codan Blobs!
Good luck Last Starfighter! |
sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:17:00 -
[2095]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Ok... then you better update your statistics on your KB, cause is only showing 195 kills, with a average of 36/month, being your prefered ship a cloacking Falcon...
I have a few alts but the figures i quoted were just from this one.
195 total but you say that is a average of 36 a month......interesting:
The Illuminati. from 2008.07.18 12:53 to this day so 195 divided by 1 month = 36 in your world?.
Ive only been in this alliance for a month dude and most of those 195 kills were in the first couple of weeks as for the last few i have been sorting out moving house. I was in the corp a long time ago for a very short time but left (got about 20 kills i think as i was busy at the time and not really active).
You KB skills and stat junkie crap are as poor as yor pvp knowledge..muppet. |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:19:00 -
[2096]
Edited by: marakor on 20/08/2008 15:27:03
Originally by: Meina Lamia You are either clueless or as I suspect, try to be clever and add argument without substance. All I senese from your posts is that you want to brow beat others into submission to your ideas.
IM not the one hoping and giving arguments with no substance:
Originally by: Meina Lamia Blaster/AC ships racing to get to those who they can reach and [b[HOPEING[/b] EW will keep them damped till they get to them
"sigh" paper tigers and there dreams...
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:21:00 -
[2097]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
You KB skills and stat junkie crap are as poor as yor pvp knowledge..muppet.
Make us all a favour and stay cloacked for the rest of the tread.
Mupppet out
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:24:00 -
[2098]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 20/08/2008 15:25:58
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
You KB skills and stat junkie crap are as poor as yor pvp knowledge..muppet.
Make us all a favour and stay cloacked for the rest of the tread.
Mupppet out
AAAWWW YOU SNIPPED YOUR SCREWUP.
Whats the matter pal did you forget to check my employment history before your "ad homi" attack. MUPPET |
Meina Lamia
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:30:00 -
[2099]
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Meina Lamia You are either clueless or as I suspect, try to be clever and add argument without substance. All I senese from your posts is that you want to brow beat others into submission to your ideas.
IM not the one hoping and giving arguments with no substance:
Originally by: Meina Lamia Blaster/AC ships racing to get to those who they can reach and [b[HOPEING[/b] EW will keep them damped till they get to them
ROFL and your substance was where???
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marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:32:00 -
[2100]
Edited by: marakor on 20/08/2008 15:32:28
Originally by: Meina Lamia
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Meina Lamia You are either clueless or as I suspect, try to be clever and add argument without substance. All I senese from your posts is that you want to brow beat others into submission to your ideas.
IM not the one hoping and giving arguments with no substance:
Originally by: Meina Lamia Blaster/AC ships racing to get to those who they can reach and [b[HOPEING[/b] EW will keep them damped till they get to them
ROFL and your substance was where???
Way beyond your limited carebear nerfit understanding. |
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