Originally by: Veldya

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Originally by: ApaKaka

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Err, i call bullshit. The viability of battleships has been the same for years, RR battleship crews are a notoriously hard nut to crack, and nano-gangs can't do it unless they are two-three times as many as the RR BS gang. I don't know where you've PVP'd, but it's not in the EVE I know.

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nano-HACs will rip through a battleship. What does an Ishtar kick out? 600-700dps?

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Originally by: Avernus

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One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Just killed a Drake about 10 minutes ago. It was plain T2 fit, took TWO gank battleships (Geddon and my Hype) to kill it, and the killmail read something in the neighborhood of 93K (yes, THOUSAND) damage recieved.

My Hype does around 850 DPS with guns alone (can't use drones on a gate while pirating) and couldn't even break it's tank.

Yes, passive tanking is broke lol.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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PROTIP: Passive Drakes are totally useless in PVP. A well fit cruiser is a much, MUCH better addition.

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Originally by: Veldya

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Edited by: Veldya on 29/07/2008 11:34:12

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Just killed a Drake about 10 minutes ago. It was plain T2 fit, took TWO gank battleships (Geddon and my Hype) to kill it, and the killmail read something in the neighborhood of 93K (yes, THOUSAND) damage recieved.

My Hype does around 850 DPS with guns alone (can't use drones on a gate while pirating) and couldn't even break it's tank.

Yes, passive tanking is broke lol.

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You can't get a 0 cap passive tank that big across uniform damage, without seeing his mods I am guessing he went heavy kin/the resists which is handy against blasters. Leaving EM open creates a pretty vulnerable achilles' heel though.

Most passive drakes are packing 2 extenders so their base shield is out to 13k, if you are hitting their two strongest resists then naturally life is going to be more difficult.

Sound like he was using active hardeners so if you had neuts you would have trashed his tank, or he was fielding faction/complex/commander modules, which I doubt.

Thankfully, the weapons at your disposal to counter passive drakes are available to any ship, any build type and useful in almost every combat scenario. Counters for nano setups are not quite the same thing.

My Drake setup has 53k tank with uniform damage, once you get through the shield it is pretty much cactus.

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Originally by: ApaKaka

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What does one RR repping domi repair? 6-700 dps? Sheesh, we're not talking 1v1 here, that just doesn't happen in EVE anymore unless you suck at the game. What does the domi have in the three other hislots? oh, heavy neuts? Bye bye run-of-the-mill nanoship.

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Originally by: Lt Angus

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u can get 700dps tanked in a 0 cap drake and since blaster dps is usually less then its eft number based on falloff/tracking and other such stuff its perfectly realistic
and thats using offlined invulnes, if he has cap hes tanking 1100 and doing 350 dps.

Yea its a useless setup

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Originally by: Veldya

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Originally by: Lt Angus

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u can get 700dps tanked in a 0 cap drake and since blaster dps is usually less then its eft number based on falloff/tracking and other such stuff its perfectly realistic
and thats using offlined invulnes, if he has cap hes tanking 1100 and doing 350 dps.

Yea its a useless setup

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Offline invlun fields gives you a significantly worse tank than just using an EM/TH/KI resistance amplifier.

A drake with 2 shield extenders, pretty much standard, has a signature radius of 377 and with max skills the ships moves at 175m/s. Tell me you do not have issues getting optimum damage against a drake...

Drake is a nothing ship in PvP, can't do any real damage, can't survive focus fire. It is really a waste of time, a stock blackbird with ECM is 1000x more feared on the battlefield than a Drake.

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Originally by: Veldya

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Drake is a nothing ship in PvP, can't do any real damage, can't survive focus fire. It is really a waste of time, a stock blackbird with ECM is 1000x more feared on the battlefield than a Drake.

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Originally by: Veldya

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Edited by: Veldya on 29/07/2008 11:34:12

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Just killed a Drake about 10 minutes ago. It was plain T2 fit, took TWO gank battleships (Geddon and my Hype) to kill it, and the killmail read something in the neighborhood of 93K (yes, THOUSAND) damage recieved.

My Hype does around 850 DPS with guns alone (can't use drones on a gate while pirating) and couldn't even break it's tank.

Yes, passive tanking is broke lol.

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You can't get a 0 cap passive tank that big across uniform damage, without seeing his mods I am guessing he went heavy kin/the resists which is handy against blasters. Leaving EM open creates a pretty vulnerable achilles' heel though.

Most passive drakes are packing 2 extenders so their base shield is out to 13k, if you are hitting their two strongest resists then naturally life is going to be more difficult.

Sound like he was using active hardeners so if you had neuts you would have trashed his tank, or he was fielding faction/complex/commander modules, which I doubt.

Thankfully, the weapons at your disposal to counter passive drakes are available to any ship, any build type and useful in almost every combat scenario. Counters for nano setups are not quite the same thing.

My Drake setup has 53k tank with uniform damage, once you get through the shield it is pretty much cactus.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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It wasn't 100% pure passive, but it was passive in the sense that his passive cap regen kept his active hardeners going. And no, he didn't have an EM hole either, and he wasn't specifically tanked vs Kin/Therm.

If we had neuts I'm sure we would have reduced his tank. On the other hand, if I had neuts fit, my DPS would be reduced accordingly, and he'd STILL be about to out-tank my reduced DPS with his reduced tank. Plus I'd be completely out of cap and not able to tank the gate guns.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Only because people are doing it wrong. The Drake is a reasonably agile/fast ship (faster then properly setup Myrmidon/etc, 1125m/s currently) which has full tackle, 68-82*K eff HP (depending wether you go for resist rigs or extenders) and 600+ DPS. That's what the Drake is.

Naturally, you can always fit small pulses on a harbringer and claim it's a useless ship. It's merely bad fitting.

*Overloadable to 93.8K.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Nikita Aratsu

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Passive tanking needs to be looked at, a drake can tank about 600+ dps without having to use its cap for anything. A rigged hurricane will tank about 350dps and have to use cap.

The problem with passive tanking is it makes you immune to all forms for cap warfare, which imo is not fair, one on one the drake is overpowered vs other battlecruisers as they will have a hard time breaking its tank and its likely the drake will win eventually. Drakes and all forms of passive tanking seriously needs balanceing.

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Just killed a Drake about 10 minutes ago. It was plain T2 fit, took TWO gank battleships (Geddon and my Hype) to kill it, and the killmail read something in the neighborhood of 93K (yes, THOUSAND) damage recieved.

My Hype does around 850 DPS with guns alone (can't use drones on a gate while pirating) and couldn't even break it's tank.

Yes, passive tanking is broke lol.

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Quote:

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TheG2
Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
None
Hyperion
Ion Blaster Cannon I
Damage done:25,809 (100%)

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Originally by: NoOth3rDestiny

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I don't like passive shield tankers, but that is because I am Amarr/Gallente. Back when I used a Harbinger (Totally awesome BC) to fight a Drake in my corp, he had a bit better skill level then me, but I still had a T2 fit for everything but guns. I had T1 best named Med Beams forgot the name, with Multi ammo, had a full T2 omni tank and the rest was basically cap recharge, a basic PvE fit. We also had another drake around the same level as the drake we fought. Basically we couldn't get him under half and as soon as he started firing at me, it wasn't too long before my cap ran dry, was unable to fire and got smashed. My cap skills are mostly lv4 and my armour comps were lv3, so not the best, but still that was pretty strong vs 2 and I would go down fast.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/07/2008 12:14:40
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/07/2008 12:13:47

Originally by: Veldya

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Drake is a nothing ship in PvP, can't do any real damage, can't survive focus fire. It is really a waste of time, a stock blackbird with ECM is 1000x more feared on the battlefield than a Drake.

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Only because people are doing it wrong. The Drake is a reasonably agile/fast ship (faster then properly setup Myrmidon/etc, 1125m/s currently) which has full tackle, 68-82*K eff HP (depending wether you go for resist rigs or extenders) and 600+ DPS. That's what the Drake is.

Naturally, you can always fit small pulses on a harbringer and claim it's a useless ship. It's merely bad fitting.

*Overloadable to 93.8K.

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Originally by: Pan Crastus

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The "awful" 300 DPS of the passive Drakes without damage mods that people are laughing about are a lot more than any of the currently speedtanked ships can tank actively. Try active shield boosting on an AB Rapier for LOLs.

This is why heavy missile boats with huge passive tanks will rule EVE when nanos are nerfed. All the Cruiser-sized ships that rely on > 3000m/s now will be useless because any crappy T1 fitted BC will blow them to pieces.

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Getting 600 DPS in a Drake is extremely difficult indeed.

Well I managed 597 with a HAM setup using Rage terror missiles and perfect missile skills. This is 3 BCU's and an RCU in the lows and had to drop the T2 MWD down to a named one.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Getting 600 DPS in a Drake is extremely difficult indeed.

Well I managed 597 with a HAM setup using Rage terror missiles and perfect missile skills. This is 3 BCU's and an RCU in the lows and had to drop the T2 MWD down to a named one.

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Max skills, Terror Rage, triple-BCS HAM Drake gets 641 DPS with Hobgoblin IIs. Not sure how you're getting 597...

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Getting 600 DPS in a Drake is extremely difficult indeed.

Well I managed 597 with a HAM setup using Rage terror missiles and perfect missile skills. This is 3 BCU's and an RCU in the lows and had to drop the T2 MWD down to a named one.

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Max skills, Terror Rage, triple-BCS HAM Drake gets 641 DPS with Hobgoblin IIs. Not sure how you're getting 597...

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sorry, i didnt max out the drone skills. how silly of me not to set every single skill to level 5!

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Originally by: Veldya

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Myrm has always shat all over the Drake so that is hardly a fair comparison, although the myrm damage is partly dependant on drones and they are not foolproof.

It only costs me about 30m or so to build Ishtars and I'd rather stick a moderate tank in an ishtar, even without a nano and it would shit all over a drake, myrm or any other passive tank.

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Quote:

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For a BC investment, I don't really think you get the bang for your buck. Passives are nice in lowsec where you can often get a lot of 1-on-1 or 2-on-1 action, in npc space it is a tad less forgiving. Drake of any sort wouldn't get past the first gate camp where I live. :P

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Lorz0r

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Getting 600 DPS in a Drake is extremely difficult indeed.

Well I managed 597 with a HAM setup using Rage terror missiles and perfect missile skills. This is 3 BCU's and an RCU in the lows and had to drop the T2 MWD down to a named one.

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Max skills, Terror Rage, triple-BCS HAM Drake gets 641 DPS with Hobgoblin IIs. Not sure how you're getting 597...

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sorry, i didnt max out the drone skills. how silly of me not to set every single skill to level 5!

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Veldya

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Myrm has always shat all over the Drake so that is hardly a fair comparison, although the myrm damage is partly dependant on drones and they are not foolproof.

It only costs me about 30m or so to build Ishtars and I'd rather stick a moderate tank in an ishtar, even without a nano and it would shit all over a drake, myrm or any other passive tank.

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(a) Let me introduce you to the concept of (gasp!) opportunity costs. The fact you can or cannot build a Ishtar for 30M doesn't mean you didn't lose 60-70M or whatever when it pops. You make 40M if you build a Ishtar for 30M and can sell it for 70M. You could sell the Ishtar and buy a bunch of Drakes/Myrmidons/whatever. It doesn't cost any less because you made 40M, you know?

(b) Let me introduce you to the concept of buffer tanking. Buffer tanking is relying on your effective HP and your gank to kill the target before you die. If you ever heard about the ship called "Megathron", it's what it normally does - fit plates + damage mods to enable it to gank the target before it does. The buffer-tanked Drake (read: DC II, LSE II, 2x invuln II for tank with extender rigs) does the same; it uses buffer to whitstand your DPS for long enough time to gank your tanked Ishtar. Now, a Drake does a bit over 600 DPS. Get the picture now?

Quote:

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For a BC investment, I don't really think you get the bang for your buck. Passives are nice in lowsec where you can often get a lot of 1-on-1 or 2-on-1 action, in npc space it is a tad less forgiving. Drake of any sort wouldn't get past the first gate camp where I live. :P

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Yes. However, while a Drake is more likely to get caught, tanked Ishtars get caught and die all the time, because tanked Ishtars don't run away very well, and now they'll do so even worse. Nano ishtars are getting nerfed.

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Originally by: TheG2

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My ishtar isn't changing at all in this patch, which is fun because all the people I know with Nano ishtars are gonna cry.

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Originally by: Nikita Aratsu

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Passive tanking needs to be looked at, a drake can tank about 600+ dps without having to use its cap for anything. A rigged hurricane will tank about 350dps and have to use cap.

The problem with passive tanking is it makes you immune to all forms for cap warfare, which imo is not fair, one on one the drake is overpowered vs other battlecruisers as they will have a hard time breaking its tank and its likely the drake will win eventually. Drakes and all forms of passive tanking seriously needs balanceing.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: TheG2

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My ishtar isn't changing at all in this patch, which is fun because all the people I know with Nano ishtars are gonna cry.

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Well, none of my ships are actually changing except the Jaguar (which I didn't fly too much anyway as I was always disappointed by its performance). I'm selling some battleships though (scrapping the Tempest and Maelstorm), and my Hurricane fittings will now probably have another web instead of a sensor booster.

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Originally by: ZhouXi

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Sure, the drake will win eventually... if you forget you can warp away at any time. A passive tanked drake devotes all mid slots and low slots to its tank, making it completely worthless in pvp against all but the most idiotic opponents. Can't scramble, can't web, turns like an oil tanker, slow as a snail, sig radius the size of a small moon, etc.

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