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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.29 19:55:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Pottsey on 29/07/2008 19:57:57
"A passive tanked drake devotes all mid slots and low slots to its tank, making it completely worthless in pvp against all but the most idiotic opponents. Can't scramble, can't web, turns like an oil tanker, slow as a snail, sig radius the size of a small moon, etc."
You dont have to devote all mid and low slots to the tank, thats not been true in years. Get with the times. Passive tanks either fit scramble modules or bring a freind who does it for you and as a added benfit your tank is much stronger due to a freind and gang skills. There is a thing called over tanking which far to many passive tankers do. As I said many times before just because you can fit all your mid and low slots to tanking doesnt mean you have to or need to.
A passive tank with 3 or 4 damage mods and some freinds who scrable work well.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Raging Negotiator
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:03:00 -
[122]
but then that tank that you described isn't overpowered or even remotely difficult to break. point is that drake is a terrible ship in pvp no matter how you look at it.
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:15:00 -
[123]
 Originally by: Raging Negotiator
but then that tank that you described isn't overpowered or even remotely difficult to break. point is that drake is a terrible ship in pvp no matter how you look at it.
How the hell do you fit your drakes?
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Raging Negotiator
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:50:00 -
[124]
Which part in my critism of the ships usefulness made you think that I fly one?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:54:00 -
[125]
Quote:
A passive tank with 3 or 4 damage mods and some freinds who scrable work well.
That's not a passive tank - it's a buffer tank.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:12:00 -
[126]
Drake with a pure tank will tank extremely well (to the point that people call it imbalanced) however is practically useless when it comes to PvP since it has to devote all med, low and rig slots to tank.
Drake with big tank+tackle (lets say, point+web) is going to be useful as a bait ship, but have a significantly worse tank (worse than a Myrmidon at that point) and still lacks the speed+damage to really be a threat to anything itself.
Soon as you fit an MWD to it you have to take off all the SPRs else your cap isn't going to last 2 seconds. Might as well swap them for BCUs and HAMs for some nice damage. Swap out those Purgers for Extenders too and you actually have a useful setup.
Sadly that isn't the passive tanking you describe; it's buffer tanking. You'll find it's very easy to break; just takes a bit of time. A well fit Myrmidon or Plated Harbinger will rip it a new one.
...
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waruiushiro
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Posted - 2008.07.31 20:10:00 -
[127]
Edited by: waruiushiro on 31/07/2008 20:10:13
How can OPs who understand nothing about this game generate so much response... oh wait I just answered my own question.
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Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:26:00 -
[128]
this is a stupid post
all you anti-caldari whiners are weak !
end of story.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:34:00 -
[129]
ITs a fair point
A good passive tanked drake could out tank a dominixs full drone damage.
This means a BC is tanking a BS - this surely dosent fit in with "game balance utopia" and CCP should look into this and shield tanks in general.
First they came for the nanos - and i said nothing... then they came for me
SKUNK
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Lt Angus
Caldari
Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.31 21:49:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Lt Angus on 31/07/2008 21:50:40
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
A passive tank with 3 or 4 damage mods and some freinds who scrable work well.
That's not a passive tank - it's a buffer tank.
little hint, on shield they are the same thing  and telling pottsey what a passive tank is will open you up to a world of pain |
Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:02:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Le Skunk
ITs a fair point
A good passive tanked drake could out tank a dominixs full drone damage.
This means a BC is tanking a BS - this surely dosent fit in with "game balance utopia" and CCP should look into this and shield tanks in general.
First they came for the nanos - and i said nothing... then they came for me
SKUNK
Its a BIG tradeoff, have a STRONG tank and NOO dps or have dps and not as strong a tank !, personelly I would never use a passive drake, it sucks ! i have tried them but seriously the lack of dps makes it a lazy man's choice, who don't want to maximize his results.
I see no logic too this whine, nothing personelly, but it stench of whining !, the whine forum that some 1 suggested, would be nice for this post 
EVE changes all the time, I ones apon a time trained for t2 torps, and now they have been changed to a completely different weapon than the one I trained for,,, you see me whine on forum ?? NOO
stop whining about it, and adapt !
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Kvander Godalming
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:18:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Kvander Godalming on 31/07/2008 22:19:15
Passive tank drakes cannot pvp, period. And I know, I've tried. (Well, didn't mean to. Was passing through lowsec, got cornered by an Ishtar, scrammed; tank lasted 5 minutes before breaking. I took him down to, oh, just under the 100% mark on his shields. If I'd had better shield comp skills and such I'd have lived longer, but there was very little I could do at that point to improve my dps. The BEST I could've hoped for was to tank him indefinitely until one of us called in some corpies).
They are great for soloing L3's and most L4's (all L4's if you fit properly and play smart), and virtually nothing else. Also they look stupid.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:24:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Lt Angus
little hint, on shield they are the same thing and telling pottsey what a passive tank is will open you up to a world of pain
To some degree, yes, but the thing that really makes a passive tank work is boosting the regen rate, and that usually means sacrificing things like speed and DPS mods.
It could be compared to fitting a small repper just to avoid spending bazillions on in-station repairs, rather than using it to actively tank damage (but I'll admit to not knowing how common that is).
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Nikita Aratsu
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:17:00 -
[134]
Troll'd.
Its nice to see how when you bend the facts about stuff the vocal majority use they all jump in to defend it and give you the correct facts. All the people who defended this probally didnt defend nano's and dont understand the ships fully.
Vocal majority doesnt not equal the view of everyone in the game cpp, stop this silly speed nerf and rebalance the ships that arnt ment to nano.
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ShardowRhino
Caldari
Legion 0f The Damned
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Posted - 2008.08.01 01:54:00 -
[135]
Nanonubs= pvp carebears
a passive tank doesn't make him immune to attack. Thats something the nanonubs need to get right before they start looking for things to bring up to try and save their nano***gotry. CCP isn't going to stop and go "oh those poor nanos, maybe we shouldn't do anything against them! We have seen the error in our ways!!!"
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Altho Regilian
Caldari
Zantiu-Braun Security Services
Zantiu-Braun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:35:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Altho Regilian on 01/08/2008 02:37:59
My two cents on this topic are if you go for a passive tanked drake, your doing it wrong. It sucks as an active tank too. Instead, go for buffer and high damage. Your DPS will be crap (it's a missile boat) but your salvo's will hurt, a lot. Tears crap apart in a fleet fight and since everyone thinks your obviously a passive-tank, they won't touch you till the end of the fight.
My setup:
HI: 7x Heavy Launcher II (Faction ammo. 2x CN Thunderbolt, 2x CN Widowmaker, 3x CN Scourge)
MID:
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x 10MN AB II (Even with max skills you can't fit a MWD on this fit w/o implants)
1x Invulnerability Field II
3x Large Shield Extender II
LOW:
2x Ballistic Control Unit II
1x Reactor Control Unit II
1x Inertia Stabilizers II (reduces align time by a chunk also, not enough CPU left to fit another BCU II, which would barely affect the amount of damage anyways)
Stats:
EHP: 53K
Shield EHP: 41K
Everything will perma-run
Resists:
EM: 44%
THERM: 55.2%
KIN: 66.4%
EXP: 72%
DPS: 300
Salvo: 2071
As you can see, nothing spectacular. Though it provides good fire support during a fleet battle and even has the ability to solo some stuff, it is slow. The inertia stabilizer helps to make the ship more agile but it certainly won't win any races. A good fun ship if you fly it properly and have a realistic fitting like what I have above.
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Altho Regilian
Caldari
Zantiu-Braun Security Services
Zantiu-Braun Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.01 03:51:00 -
[137]
Second post. Thought some of you would want to see my much more effective HAM setup:
HI:
7x HAM II's (2x CN Torrent, 2x CN Hellfire, 3x CN Terror)
Mid:
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x 10MN Digital Booster Rockets (HAM's free up the CPU and Grid to use a MWD on this fit)
1x Stasis Web II
1x Invulnerability Field II
2x Large Shield Extender II
Low:
3x Ballistic Control Unit II
1x Reactor Control Unit II
Rig:
Low Friction nozzle joints I
EHP: 47K
DPS: 460
Salvo: 1549
Resists same as above
So yeah, yet another example of a non-overpowered drake. Yes, it does a good amount of DPS but needs to get within 15km to start doing it. The rig and the MWD help with this.
There ya go. Now I've given you two decent fits for a ship both which are at least viable in PvP with a gang. Passive tank your drake and you'll die without causing much damage. Active tank your drake and your cap won't last more than a few minutes and your screwed if neuted or the other gang overcomes the amount of DPS you can tank.
I'll go to the step that the Drake is probably one of the hardest ships to fit a decent setup on. A full T2 setup like both of mine are extremely CPU and PG intensive. If you don't have your skills straight then you can't fit them. Once you have the right skills though then they can be fun to fly but you need to go after the targets you can cause damage to. Mainly Battlecruisers, Cruisers, and some frigate sized ships.
To the OP:
I hope my posts have shown you how a properly fit drake should look like. Granted, there are several other setups out there which will work as well but any PvP pilot worth their salt and still wants to take a Drake into combat won't have it fit as a passive tank. Instead they will have it fit with something similar to what I've posted above. Buffer tank, decent damage, ability to tackle, etc. The buffer is simply there for people returning fire or the odd drone aggro, etc. Once called primary you'll be dead inside 20 seconds. Just how it is with everyone else.
And yes, while I did plug these into EFT to get the stats put out by that program, the above setups are what I fly when I do go into combat with a drake which while rare is still fun and so I do it.
P.S. Please keep killing all drakes last so when I do take it out I'll still get several kills before being called primary m'kay?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 09:18:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 09:22:59
Originally by: Gypsio III
That's not a passive tank - it's a buffer tank.
Just because I dont use 3 or 4 slots for tanking doesnt mean I am no longer a passive tank. Most of my passive tanks are focused on HP regen with 3 damage mods. They are HP regen passive tanks. How are purgers, shield rechargers, SPR's and damage mods not classed as passive tanks.
Anyway your wrong as buffer tanks are still passive tanks.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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bogir
War And Peace Construction
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Posted - 2008.08.02 10:12:00 -
[139]
how long sins they last nerfed the pasiv shield tanked BCs? 6-7month - they lowered starting shield recharge rate form 1250 sec to 1400sec on ALL BCs
and each time i see a pasiv tanked drake, myrm and ohter i dont relly char sins they cant hit for much dps.
a well fittet mega will rip it down fast. i use to have a myrm whit 20k som shield hp there regen em on around 70sec ( before the first nerf ) that was fun...
i dont see a problem whit pasiv tanked ships now a days sins solo pvp is never happing sins you die normal if you do.
and we all way have to face it.. no matter what ship you are flying there is a ship there can kill you... just becouse you ditten fly a drake able ship, you dont need to go on forums to vine about it... just like players crying about nano... there are tons of ways to kill em. and so on.... eve is about useing a combined force of tactics and useing the intell you have... buy WTF its way more easy to go on forums and cry about it..
Ceo of WAPC
we CAN build it.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.02 10:21:00 -
[140]
You don't see passive tanked Myrmidons about much.
They passive tank better than Drakes do.
Therefore passive tanks aren't the problem.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2008.08.02 10:27:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Altho Regilian
Second post. Thought some of you would want to see my much more effective HAM setup:
...
1x 10MN Digital Booster Rockets (HAM's free up the CPU and Grid to use a MWD on this fit)
Low Friction nozzle joints I
...
So yeah, yet another example of a non-overpowered drake. Yes, it does a good amount of DPS but needs to get within 15km to start doing it. The rig and the MWD help with this.
LOL, nub EFT warrior FTL.
It does do 380 DPS at 80+ Km though, how's that not overpowered? Even your noob fitting that you've obviously never used...
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.02 10:31:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Kvander Godalming
Edited by: Kvander Godalming on 31/07/2008 22:19:15
Passive tank drakes cannot pvp, period. And I know, I've tried. (Well, didn't mean to. Was passing through lowsec, got cornered by an Ishtar, scrammed; tank lasted 5 minutes before breaking. I took him down to, oh, just under the 100% mark on his shields. If I'd had better shield comp skills and such I'd have lived longer, but there was very little I could do at that point to improve my dps. The BEST I could've hoped for was to tank him indefinitely until one of us called in some corpies).
They are great for soloing L3's and most L4's (all L4's if you fit properly and play smart), and virtually nothing else. Also they look stupid.
why didn't you just shoot his drones?
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 10:53:00 -
[143]
Originally by: James Lyrus
You don't see passive tanked Myrmidons about much.
They passive tank better than Drakes do.
Therefore passive tanks aren't the problem.
…and they also do more DPS while maintaining that better tank, proving the point even more.
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Maximor
Skill Level Six
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:31:00 -
[144]
Why do I get the feeling that someone got ganked by a passive fit drake?
There are almost always tradeoffs for things like this. In this case, the tradeoff is dps. Complain all you want, but they already nerfed the shield regen on a drake, or rather fixed it, since it was way above what it should have been compared to other BC's.
If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ? |
Maximor
Skill Level Six
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:47:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Le Skunk
ITs a fair point
A good passive tanked drake could out tank a dominixs full drone damage.
This means a BC is tanking a BS - this surely dosent fit in with "game balance utopia" and CCP should look into this and shield tanks in general.
First they came for the nanos - and i said nothing... then they came for me
SKUNK
So what? Even a moderately fitted and skilled domi pilot could tank the dps from a passively fit drake in their sleep. Just because I can fit 8 heat sink II's, 3 ECA II's, and 7 heavy tachyons on a geddon, doesn't mean I should or that it would make a good pvp ship. Yes, I know you can't fit 7 heavy tachyons on a geddon because of grid, I'm trying to make a point! :-P
With that setup, you could prob one round a cruiser, Even if you switched out the tachyons for something lighter. But it has no tank and isn't good for anything beyond a fleet sniper. The same is true with a full passive tank drake. You might be able to tank most things short of cap ships, but that doesn't make you useful.
Although, come to think of it, you could prob tank minmatar cap ships. All that ducctape is heavy and slows traking and drone speed. 
If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ? |
Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:50:00 -
[146]
I've had a 6 month old char in a drake tank my alt who was in a blaster dominix, with 5x wasp II's out, with 8 mil in gunnery and 5 mil in drones and Gallente battleship 5, large blaster spec 4
... and the drake just tanked until I ran out of cap charges and I had to bail
now tell me thats not overpowered, seriously
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.02 11:59:00 -
[147]
MWD's are no longer requirement for pvp so a Blaster Domi doing 1300 DPS+ is viable now.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:10:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Tippia on 02/08/2008 12:11:59
Originally by: Gneeznow
I've had a 6 month old char in a drake tank my alt who was in a blaster dominix, with 5x wasp II's out, with 8 mil in gunnery and 5 mil in drones and Gallente battleship 5, large blaster spec 4
... and the drake just tanked until I ran out of cap charges and I had to bail
now tell me thats not overpowered, seriously
The Domi didn't die, so no. Also, which side was it that used the cap booster? If it was the Domi, did you consider that you might be able to permatank the (pityful) DPS of the Drake with a far less cap-heavy tank? Also, why were you using Wasps, when it's one of the things Drakes tank the best? Sounds more like a bad Domi fit than an overpowered Drake to me…
At any rate, the whole point of a Battle Cruiser (and I separate the two parts for a reason) can be understood by looking at its name.
It's the bastard child mix of battleships and cruisers: tough enough to play alongside battleships, but fast enough to take on cruisers. To fulfil that role, they sacrifice firepower (and they don't need that much to go after cruiser anyway). As a result, a one-on-one between a BC and a BS, and certainly between two BCs, will always end in a stalemate – neither can do enough damage to bypass the protection of the other.
Admittedly, the historical design of BCs was kind of the opposite: they had BS-class weaponry (only fewer pieces), and less-than-BS-but-more-than-Cruiser protection, so a BC would be insane to go up against another BC since the whole point of the class was to outgun itself. Still, they'd be agile enough to evade battleships and have enough firepower to kill cruisers.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:13:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/08/2008 12:13:56
"Even a moderately fitted and skilled domi pilot could tank the dps from a passively fit drake in their sleep."
But thats got nothing to do with it being a passive tank. The passive tank does the same damage as the active tank setups. There is no damage diffrance between a passive or active tank. Both can fit the same weapons and same damage mods. A domi can tank a Drake as Drakes are BC's with low damage. Any tanked BS can tank a BC with ease.
____
Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation
(www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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McDonALTs
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Posted - 2008.08.02 12:21:00 -
[150]
You guys need to get into pvp more. Its rare to see passive tank ships. Buffer tanks or active tanks rule.
I can put 3 X-Large boosters on a raven and claim overpowred. But its not. Just ignore what people say they do and look at real world pvp and look at what they actually do.
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